Ten Proposed Rules for Civil Discourse and Moderation (by rosie)

Share/Save/Bookmark

This Ticket Valid One Way Only Way Jan. 1 2009
by This Ticket Valid One Way...
07-Jan-2009
 

I have always felt that moderation is more of an art than a science, but following a lively debate on free speech on Javaneh's blog, I have changed my mind and have devised ten proposed hard and fast rules for civil discourse and moderation on this website.  My goal is to both invite your input on these rules and for you to post as many of your own suggestions for rules on this thread as possible, and then I will organize them and submit them formally to management. Here are my ten rules:

1. Hate speech should be dealt with as per the following template: A statement such as  "Hitler was right. Jews are inferior" is  to be tolerated, that is not deleted but hopefully not encouraged.  However, if an expletive is added, as in "Hitler was right. F-ing Jews are inferior", this must be deleted. Likewise, with or without expletive, if the phrase 'and should be killed" is added deletion is in order. If additionally the phrase "so let's kill 'em now, here's how" is added, in an ideal world this would not only be deleted but the poster tracked and reported to the proper authorities. However, to allay the concerns of many community members regarding trackability and privacy, we should let the murderer go.

2.  Comparison of any political groups to repulsive animals such as cockroaches are acceptable in cases such as "All IRI supporters (Monarchists, Neocons, Zionists, etc.) are cockroaches" ; however statements such as  "This site is infested with IRI supporter(Monarchist, Zionist, etc) cockroaches" is merely tolerable; while "You, dear Sir (Madam) are an IRI (Monarchist, Zionist, etc.) cockroach" must be deleted unless the person addressed agrees with the statement.

3. All threads where the terms IRI apologist, Fascist or neocon appear to address someone else on the thread are to be immediately subject to warning that they will be promptly closed unless the entire discussion is channelled into a painstaking socio-political nalysis of the exact meaning of these terms and a  consensus arrived at by all participants. An excellent scholarly source to consult for such inquiry can be found here.

4.  Additionally, any participant who uses the term IRI apologist, Fascist or neocon more than twice in any one-month period to address anyone else is to be blocked from the stie for a probationary period of one month. Foaad will devise a tracking system to implement this rule. The reason for it is not so much that the terms are so offensive, as that they are boring and reduce site traffic.

5.  Regrettably we live in a world where symbols sacred to some are not sacred to others, and therefore ridiculing any religion's gods, prophets or saints must be tolerated as long as expletives such as f-ing gods, prophets or saints are not used.  This unfortunately also applies to images of said gods, prophets or saints, as well as their full or partial nudity (as per rules on nudity below). However this does not apply to Jehovah, because he is invisible.

6.  Nudity on this website is permissible as long as the people photographed are sexy.  Therefore while this image //iranian.com/main/2008-418?page should have been deleted, this image  is acceptable and should also replace the goldfish logo. //iranian.com/main/blog/eyeranian/advice-ink-or-not-ink


7.  Soft-core pornography must always appear under the title Experimental and for the sake of the well-being of the children, Foaad will devise a filter available to concerned parents, at a lucrative price to be determined by management. This filter will immediately direct the children to appropriate educational materials, devised by a mature, responsible, and qualified adult, auch as the following materials: //iranian.com/main/blog/jahanshah-javid/im-mean-one

8.  Hard-core pornography is permissible by link only, and only in cases when it is considered newsworthy. //iranian.com/main/blog/jahanshah-javid/berimfaza-com  Any hard-core pornography featuring regular site members shall be deemed newsworthy for the purposes of this community.

9.  Appropriate use of vulgar language is highly contextualized. However, in general, vulgar language is acceptable on or under any material of a "racey" nature. Further, vulgar language is not only acceptable but highly desirable and should be spurred on by moderators during the periodic family feuds which erupt among the core blogging community from time to time. This is because the general readership finds these feuds very entertaining and they increase site traffic--And the more bitter, the better. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj4WZReOKh8 Such feuds must in fact be exempt from all restrictions on verbal abuse except death threats (unless clearly not intended to be taken literally).  If these  feuds become too excessive, they will be moved to a special section to be erected by Foaad in the white space to be called "Incest Fest." as the white space is underutilized anyway. 10.  Finally Foaad will locate or devise  for the publisher a computer that is completely waterproof so that he can work on moderation while he is swimmig in Mexico, not just while eating, walking, and learning how to count to ten in Spanish. His attitude toward moderation is lax. He must do more. 
_________ These are my initial ten proposed rules for civil discourse and moderation on this website. Please post your suggestions below. I will completely ignore whatever I feel like ignoring and organize the rest and then submit the final list to management as the representative collective voice of the website. I figure if we can come up with a thousand rules or so, that should just about cover all possible scenarios of abuse on the website and appropriate measures to deal with it. Rosie PS Watch this one beginning to end, for real: www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcoceOhB0QM (Lenny Bruce, considered probably the greatest American comedian ever-- incarcerated on obscenity charges, 1954)

 

Share/Save/Bookmark

Recently by This Ticket Valid One Way Only Way Jan. 1 2009CommentsDate
just a short message from rosie
2
Jan 06, 2009
On Gaza, Goldfish and Ghazals (from rosie)
17
Dec 31, 2008
more from This Ticket Valid One Way Only Way Jan. 1 2009
 
This Ticket Valid One Way Only Way Jan. 1 2009

MPD,

by This Ticket Valid One Way... on

Okay you don't have to apologize. I am the one that's sorry. Next time someone talkss about IRI cockroaches on the website, I will tell everyone that it is obviously meant to be a compliment. Anyway I wouldn't worry about my disparaging comments towards these ovviously wonderful creatures since not too many people will probably see them, as the blog has not been featured, no doubt for very good reasons.  :o)

Anyway you shouldn't be sp self-effacing. It is a bad thing to do when you have so many faces,, you will tire yourself out.  As for myself I am thinking of starting a cockroach farm myself. I live in a very small apartment so I will keep it in the bathroom.

I was thinking too, maybe you should blog about the wonders of cockroaches. If it is controversial enough maybe people would fight about that instead of Gaza.

Roxane

PS Btw I do have a mouse and I think it is adorable. I just hope it doesn't have babie. Maybe that is a mistake. Maybe I should hope it DOES have babies...Once again thank you for your extremely constructive imput.


Multiple Personality Disorder

I’m so sorry about my cockroach comment

by Multiple Personality Disorder on

Roxanne,

  I’m so sorry if I upset you or anyone else.  I didn’t mean to speak out of line.  I’m a good citizen and I always follow the rules.  The last time I had any problem with the law was several years ago and it was not my fault, I swear.  

  But anyway, humans have been around only, let’s say, for one million years and they think they know everything already, in comparison cockroaches have been around for 300 million years and they still don’t claim to know anything.  There is only one species of human beings in comparison to over 3,500 different species of cockroaches.  Cockroaches don't blow up themselves, or kill anyone else on purpose even though they are everywhere, while humans have killed billions of people just in the last 2,500 years.  So, it really upsets me when people blow each other up and think they are better than these innocent creatures.  That's all I was trying to say.  It was nothing personal. 

 Please don’t be mad at cockroaches, it’s all my fault.   


default

JJ, FOAAD: A SUGGESTION FROM RECENT CONVERSATIONS

by Rosie is Roxy (not verified) on

on moderation, civil discourse, bla bla bla, that I think would be VERY easy to implement and VERY helpful to start off would be to PROVIDE LINK to User Agreement along with the temporary password new members get by e-mail when they sign up, and tell them account won't be activated until they click confirmation that they agree.

Of course no one will read it at first but then later when they have moderation issues etc. they will know it exists and go back there.

Pls. consider it. I think it's a very good start. Thx to Darakshandeh for referring me to it (I--me,moi!--didn't even know the goddam thing existed!!!??? and to Javaneh for the blog where the discussion came up w/you about it and ALborz for discussing it.

Viva la evolucion y el User Agreement...


default

Rosie I think you need to

by Derakhshandeh (not verified) on

Rosie I think you need to abandon this blog and start another one about the user agreement when you had a chance to review it.

Looks like it was recently added without ANY fanfare :-) It was updated Nov 11, just nearly 2 months ago. My comment never made it, probably deleted by accident, whatever.

About 'how this site works' on first page I'd forget about it. This user agreement thing is a good start to talk and discuss for a while and see what readers think about it.

I really don't feel like talking too much. I think the user thing is something positive and as a result it has changed my view of i.com in a positive way.

However, enforcement of it is murky and with JJ being lazy and all I think it will be a warm day in hell before we see any substantial changes. So good luck!


Q

OK Robin

by Q on

:)


This Ticket Valid One Way Only Way Jan. 1 2009

D., reply to post #2 but read FIRST

by This Ticket Valid One Way... on

Sorry, decided to read your posts in order, had no idea you'd provided link to user agreement for me!  (This is turning into a comedy of errors, whatever...)

Okay I will look carefully at the particular section you provided. Give me some time.

As for the deletion, was your comment here on this thread and had you already seen it? Or did it just never get posted? In either case I find it HIGHLY IMPROBABLE that it happened on purpose...hmmm...a serendipitous opportunity to contact our Mr. Javid and test out the waters????????????  :o)

(ogod if j's reading this he's gonna kill me...from mexico...trust me, I NO HIM...he'll find a way...

THX,
R.


This Ticket Valid One Way Only Way Jan. 1 2009

Darakh, post #1...

by This Ticket Valid One Way... on

well now you are not going to bELIEVE this but.....even though I know much more about how this site works than most people here, due to my by now not unknown ins and outs with j. and backs ond forths here, I don't even know about this user agreement, and I couldn't READ every post on that blog of Javaneh's because I have limited computer time right now, so I only followed certain "threads" within the thread.

So tell me please IMMEDIATELY where do I find this animal, this user agreement? Actually I personally LOVE legal mumbo jumbo (surprise surpise), always a fun challenge for me...but yeah, I'll definitely ferret out the more relevant stuff...once you tell me where the damn thing is.

As regards this haggling over individual deletions, quite right, we are now reaching a critical mass of consolidation where we CAN focus on the BROADER issues w/j which will resolve the details in time (forest rather than trees..) I merely mentioned it to Q to point out the HISTORY onsite of people INDIVIDUALLY giving away their power to this Imam Javid on their OWN imagined moon...and of COURSE since they gave it up individually it was IMPOSSIBLE to form a collective base...

but as Bob Dylan would say,

The times they are a-changing..

and the answer is blowing in the wind...

baad maaraa khaahad bord.

Roxane

ps please also rd (re-rd) my suggestion to q vis a vis creating a permanent "How This Site Works" PROMINENTLY displayed on home page (damn underused white space...).  NOT those dinky almost invisible little buttons on the bottom that took me weeks to even notice they were there...

 

pps AH, F.!  FOUND THE DAMN THING!  JUST WHERE I'D SUDDENLY SUSPECTED...SOUTH OF SOUTH OF THE BORDER CLOSER TO TIERRA DEL FUEGO THAN CHIHUAHUA...in this sky blue print almost falling off the page...left my query to you above about it JUST TO PROVE MY POINT that we need a HOW THIS SITE WORKS section! :o)


This Ticket Valid One Way Only Way Jan. 1 2009

Hi, Javaneh, I'm going to answer you point by point / Mult. PD

by This Ticket Valid One Way... on

Thank YOU for posting the blog. I told you when we first got to know each other that you were the one who most understood the necessity of using blogging as the mechanism to ensure democratic running of the site, which I KNOW is j's dream. I kinda knew then that my days were numbered (thought permanently...) and I felt I was passing the torch to your able hands. Now that I'm back, and in no small part becaue of people like you who sent me your kind words offsite when I left...we will work very well together. already are.

i already saw the summary. I think it is an excellent idea for bloggers to do this when it is clear that the time has come, that it is now time to ruminate over the issues, digest and apply them, and/or start new blogs.  I'm going to do it from now on if I ever have such a long thread.

Now it was not confirmed by j in the discussion but I SIMPLY CANNOT BELIEVE THAT IN ALL THIS YEAR PLUS there has been NO blog that has been deleted as offensive. There ARE very clear lines, you CAN'T call someone nigger or kike (Lenny Bruce clip aside...) or advocate the killing of people or divulge spiteful personal info, etc. in blogs, I HARDLY think THIS community is so polite that it has NEVER happened. It is beyond my ken to imaginae it. As far as the rest goes, yes, j is right, so shall the blogs stand, and satire aside, I am QUITE serious that as offensive as it is, saying Hitler was right is still w/in the realm of legitimate civil discourse (however on the very very margins of it...) I do not think it is up to j to write to such a person to chide or educate them privately, it is up to us and to him if he so chooses to use the thread for that purpose. Yes he could do THAT but it's his choice...

I do agree that in the case of a blog which must be deleted (and SUUUUUUUUUURELY there have been some????????) he should (MUST) write to the offender and explain briefly WHY it was deleted and also WARN that if it happens they will be blocked from the site, first probationary, then permanently, . I think that should be a "rule" (delineated procedure).  But you have to undertand, jav, theat j. does NOT have a categorical mind, he is what as a social worker I'm sure you have learned about, is called a "divergent thinker" who relies on "multiple intelligences" that are not the ordinary ones in our linear culture...so this is all kinda new for him...he will need time...and help...you could think of some of these more SPECIFIC concerns and start taking notes for a NEW blog (obviously not TOO soon but....you'll know when...) w/recommendtions and questions you have.

We as a community should reply to offensive submissions (and posts if possible) as much as we can, sometimes for sake of not burning out and/or other time constraints we must ignore. J is right on the money there.

Read my post to q if you haven't already as regards j getting the "message." That one (our fearless leader, i mean)  has antenna ears, trust me. As for the rest, things are more than fine, I assure you. Don't worry. But thanks for your concern, you had good reason to be but the danger is completely over.

Now as for this person Multiple Personality Disorder to whom you wrote at the end of your post to me, I know this character, all nine of him. He owns a cockroach farm in southern Mississippi where he interbreeds them to make the ugliest and most repulsvie specimens possible, which he finds quite beautiful ,and then he trains them like a flea circus to dance aroudn a bit. Forget about him, he/they...is/are...a hopeless case (cases...).  Leave him to his farm. May he live and be well. 

L'chayim, 

:o)


javaneh29

Rosie jaan

by javaneh29 on

Thanks for all your input in my blog re freedom of speech.

I have posted a summery as I see it on that blog, and I kind of reached the conclusion that JJ is right in some ways and that all blogs are the private domain of the person writting them. And whilst we may not like what they write, they have the right to their opinion and expression of it.

However, we dont have to retaliate as ignorantly as they write it, we don't have to ignore it, let it pass, and hope it will go away. We can challenge it and hopefully achieve some positive change.

My only other thought was that in the case of highly offencive, blatant and persistant cases of discrimination, JJ could write to the offender concerned. Come to that so can we all but as editor he carries a little weight.

I am pretty sure JJ gets the message and I'm confident he will come up with some way to manage these problems. I am a little worried that you take on somethng that might leave you open to anything like what you went through in the past. Look after yourself.

By the way multi PD ... SUSK are disgusting and horrible creatures. I don't care how long thay have survived ... I wish they hadn't or how they are able to survive against all the odds. I don't care how small or large they are ....whether they fly or simply scuttle, az susk mitarsam... ehhhhhh. I will celebrate if someone can ever come up with a way to kill them all forever. I discriminate against susk!

Javaneh


default

Rosie I had another comment

by Derakhshandeh (not verified) on

Rosie I had another comment but it was either deleted by accident or by puropse. Anyway, in that comment I only provided the link to the user agreement and one of the paragraphs and told you if you want to change it provide sub-bullets to the relevant paragraphs as your suggestions.

//iranian.com/main/user-agreement-and-pri...

2. You are fully responsible for your own Submissions. You will not knowingly make a Submission that violates the copyright, trademark, patent or other intellectual property right(s) of any third party, and you will remove the same should you discover or be notified that you have violated this provision. Likewise, you may not post Content that is libelous, defamatory, obscene, abusive, that violates a third party's right to privacy, that otherwise violates any applicable local, state, national or international law, or is otherwise inappropriate. You may not post Content that degrades others on the basis of gender, race, class, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual preference, disability or other classification. Epithets, slurs, canards and other language intended to intimidate or to incite violence will not be tolerated. You will not upload or email to other users malicious software, viruses, worms, Trojan Horses, spam or any other “malware.” You will not impersonate others. You will indemnify Iranian LLC, and its employees, members, managers, officers, directors, shareholders, agents, and affiliates from any and all claims and/or damages (including, without limitation, reasonable attorneys' fees and expenses) resulting from any claim brought by any third party relating to any Content you have posted.


default

Q

by Derakhshandeh (not verified) on

Q in this case (now that I have read the newly updated and unnoticed user agreement) I think you have to idenfity the problem and then try to resolve it.

Is the problem "lack of rules" or "lack of enforcement"?

I believe it is "lack of enforcement". Now my suggestion is if you want to make a case you have to write a blog and provide links to comments where it is really defamatory and personal and highlight them and let readers decide.

Not all derogatory comments are deletable. For example IRI apologist and crap like that is not deleteable. We can't call those personal attacks. If however, someone attacks a family member or insinuate or imply that s/he is trying to insult you by cleverly hiding it, then that should be deletable.

Can you provide some links to some comments that were offensive and not deleted? I know you can flag comments but what if JJ doesn't delete them? In that case I think you can collect some of these "lack of enforcements" and once they become a few write a blog and show this "lack of enforcement".

I think that is the only way. Also, it is not urgent but I think this is the way now that we have this user agreement. Have you read it?


default

As a result of reading this

by Derakhshandeh (not verified) on

As a result of reading this user agreement I now believe i.com and JJ is trying a bit to put limits around contents and usage and people's (hate speech) rhetoric.

Unfortunately in recent blogs and discussions JJ doesn't reference this updated user agreement. I know JJ and Alborz had a discussion and JJ left it hanging and I don't believe the agreement is defunct.

Just like any other legal mumbo jumbo most of fine print are boring. I think if you were to focus on the paragraphs that apply to people's concerns lately, we can get somewhere.

I think we can now point to an area of the site where rules are given. Now as far as moderation, well we can NOT argue that this comment was deleted properly and that other one wasn't. Since JJ's "gut" is big :-) and accomodating if he wants to bring these rules more to public's eye I think it would be more beneficial, rather than him just haggling with us about "freedom of speech". F*** freedom of speech! Who cares about it? Is anyone denying it?


This Ticket Valid One Way Only Way Jan. 1 2009

Hi Q I, I was just about to write you an e-mail so I'll do it

by This Ticket Valid One Way... on

here instead. I am focusing on the moderation issue right now because you know how strongly I feel about it, and also because the whole Israel/Palestine thing with the related Jewish issue is so huge on this website I need time to digest it. I have a blog in mind though, which I think will be helpful. There is soooooooo much and soooo much that is deeply disturbing on ALL fronts I have to pick and choose my battles very carefully so as not to burn out. Writing about moderation is EASY for me, this other issue is NOT.

If you go to Javaneh's blog you will find my views on rules vs. guidelines pretty well articulated in the longer posts, however I also posted as a  (lazy) fish so you have to have to keep your eyes peeled.

I also think you will be delighted to see some of j's replies, especially the later ones, and also how he stuck with it to the very end of the looong thread.

As for me, I have soul-searched and soul-searched and I have realized that power respects four things: , gratitude, respect,, UNSELFISH caring  and also another kind of power from within. I am working very hard on those qualities in myself. I am very happy to be back here, and I think the website is moving forward evolutionarily at its own necessary pace.

Myself I really have no problem with the moderation CHOICES per se and that is why I wrote this blog as a satire. I personally have never had any strong objections when I was deleted, I have never had strong objections as to the fate of posts I flagged. I have spoken with many people who have had very unhappy experiences, but when I told them to stop whining on the threads and send a brief but detailed synopsis to j and await his reply, they didn't and that is the iPROCEDURE actually (system, "rule".) and I told them that TOO.  Further I suggested if they are not satisfied they can blog their concerns. Well they didn't and that's on them, not j. So you see how people ENDOW j with and CONFER power onto him that is THEIR responsibility? They (we) give away their OWN power. I call it "wanting to see javid's face on the moon instead of imam's"...

You have to remember that the publisher virtually LIVES in his computer in a way that very few people can comprehend, overwhelmed by masses of bits and bytes of information and god knows how many e-mails (many stupid). If people don't constantly commit to helping him maintain his center, how can he NOT fall in the direction of "power" over this TINY (laptop size) yet HUGE (millions of people worldwide) world of his own creation..? In such a situation power is the path of least resistance, comfortable because...it's SOLID....anyone would run that risk. In fact in far less unique circumstances we all do it ANYWAY to greater or lesser extent.

I had suggested to j and foaad that there be an entire section on this website called How this Site Works. Within that section would be such procedures as exist (such as the one I just mentioned about apprising publisher DIRECTLY of "unfair" deletions) along with all kinds of other stuff such as navigation. I offered to help too. I don't think I was rebuffed, I think they were just too busy. The existence of such a section would further generate MORE guidelines and articulation of systems/rules for them (procedures???) at an exponential rate. Well look at all the other things that have been done, the music, the events, the IQ quiz which is access to Facebook,  graphics posting capabilities, all this during a period of major life transition...think about it..

I mentioned briefly on the Javaneh blog that I do have problems with OTHER aspects of how the site is run other than specific moderation choices (particularly to David I mentioned this) but that I really didn't want to go into it on that blog which was SPECIFICALLY about the parameters of free speech.  And I don't want to go into them here either. Some of them seem to be improving steadily anyway.

I am very optimistic about this site and I am so happy to be home again. And I have to tell you honestly that IF IT WRREN'T FOR YOU I wouldn't be here. I know it sounds soppy but it's true. If no one had blogged in reply to me that day I announced I was leaving, I NEVER would've had the strength to come back.

I will see you on the Pal/Is threads shortly. Keep the faith. You've given me so much.  :oP

r.


Q

Is self-regulation possible without power?

by Q on

that's the question.

You know Javid won't want to implement any "rules". Why should he? Is there any reason at all?

Power only respects one thing: power.

What power can be used to "earn" his respect? That is the only question that will move you forward in your quest.


This Ticket Valid One Way Only Way Jan. 1 2009

Oh shut up and write your rules, will you?

by This Ticket Valid One Way... on

I expect nine by tomorrow, one for each of your f-ing personalites.


Multiple Personality Disorder

I object!

by Multiple Personality Disorder on

I object to your reference to cockroaches as repulsive animals! Contrary to common belief cockroaches are one of the most successful creatures ever lived on this planet "because they have not adapted exclusively to one habitat or food. They can survive in a variety of places. Entomologists...believe there are about 3,500 different species of cockroaches worldwide." "Cockroaches have been around for about 300 million years, so they've outlasted the dinosaurs by about 150 million years."

When are you people going to learn that it's not the size that matters?