Persian Gardens
Social, cultural and linguistics
به زبان فارسی
PICTORY
LATEST MUSIC
SEARCH
Is Kurdish a dialect of Persian/Farsi?
15-Sep-2007
Welcome to the Dialect Forum !
by Farideh Nejat - Saturday, 15 September 2007, 03:57 PM Student: I'd like to start the discussion with the very general question – "What are the dialects?" You couldn’t have asked a better question – What are the dialects? When I put on my sociology hat, I remember in graduate school all professors recommended that we should “operationalize” the working variable before we try to answer any question or look for answers in order to acquire validity and reliability in our search. Although I have many reference books similar to a response below that I got from my Turkish/Iranian colleague whose view you will read about dialects of Iran and the historical evolution of such variety and opinions about dialects. I thought I begin with an operationalization of the word “dialect” based on one view and try to hear other views. So, this is how I addressed my question to my colleague, based on what we discussed in class and our readings and other references that I have. Dear Dr. ______ I have forum discussion at MIIS for my course work about dialects and standard language in a target language country such as ours. I have been gathering some resources but I need to also ask you if you know of any books to recommend that is in English from the Shah’s era which tells us about “dialects” of the Persian language. Since Kurds have such heated discussions about Kurdish, I want to see couple of resources for the Iranian/Kurdish whether our sources say Kurdish is a dialect or a language of its own. I believe is a dialect according to the definition of "what is language? A language has form, lexicon, and phonological system" which based on such working definition Kurdish is a dialect because its form (grammar system) is the same as Persian/Farsi with some phonological/lexical variations. Regards,
Dear Ms. Nejat, glad to hear from you. In Iran after Iranian Constitutional Revolution in 1906 and especially with the Pahlavi regime's coming to power all languages became "dialects" in order to uphold the Persian language, the heresy I do not know how many revolutions will wash away the mess which was created. Iranians still live in Pre-Nazi times and will never wake up to know that in South Africa there are 13 official languages and in India as many as 23 which illiterate can say that Gilaki or Kurdi, with all its dialect, are not languages? Please go to internet, if you do not find enough information to suffice for all your MATFL years, then let us sit down and talk. Kurds have been active and they produce tons of books about their language.
(I think he is so angry that he didn’t hear the question asked)
The following is a quotation from the introduction of the paper I have recently written. Please read it. It helps you to start thinking the misery and ignorance that our country has been pushed during the Pahlavi era and I do not think it will come out of them this soon. "Iranian Constitutional revolution of 1906 and its enormous effects and the downfall of the millennia old imperial system ushered Iran to the modern era. Iranian intellectuals, who supported the revolution and authored the constitution of the modern Iran, were greatly influenced by European thoughts, and they were admirers of Western values. Western Orientalists had begun piecing together and reconstructing the history of ancient Persia through their archeological study and matching their finds with the recorded history left from Greeks and other Western historians. Reconstruction of the ancient Persian history, creation of the Aryan myth and Sir William Jones' theory of Indo-European languages played fundamental roles in molding the modern Iranians' world views and their identity. Aryan myth was created and evolved by late 19th Century anthropologists such as Impolite Taine, Paul Boca, Edward B. Tyler and many others who built their ideas on the theories of linguists beginning mostly with Sir William Jones—the process which Leon Spoliator terms as "the tyranny of linguistics. " Thus Shahriyar's youthful identity was framed and formed during the period when modern Persian identity was being forged and defined. The creation of Aryan myth and fascination of Iranian elite with it shaped the history of the land to be named Iran in later years. As a result, belonging to the "noble" linage of Aryans and speaking in the "sweet" Persian language became the tokens of "noble" Aryan descent. By deposing Ahmad Shah, the last king of Qajar dynasty, and ascendance of Reza Shah to the throne all non-Persian speaking Iranians became the “Other.” Through the glorification of mythical heroes of epic narratives, many Iranians were misled to think of the Persian epic, Shahnameh, as their real history. The literature of the Constitutional Era is rife with Iranian patriotic poetry and references to the newly formed identity. Under such a social and political pressure, non-Persian speaker the “Other” such as Iranian Arabs, Azeri Turks, Balochis, Gilakis, Kurds, Lurs, Mazandaranis, and Turkmans, underwent drastic identity change grappling with conflicting loyalties. Shaken by the revolution and waken up in the dawn of 20th Century, The Iranians were looking for scapegoats to put the blame of their millennia old social, economical and political backwardness. They found Arabs and Turks; the first, ironically, had taught them writing and provided them with their written history, and the latter, had facilitated the dawn of their glorious ages of cultural and scientific advances, the production of their unparalleled literature and powerful rulers. In fact, Arab and Turk bashing became a way to glorify Persianism and an instrument to exorcise the shame and brunt of Iran's backwardness—a trend which continues up to this very day." Best regards, Dear Dr. _____ Thanks for your input. I think you digressed from the question that I asked. I am sure :there are tons of books in Kurdish" as you remember the book that we cited so many times for developing our Persian/Farsi books on the shelf "history of languages" also listed Kurdish as one of the dialects of Persian/Farsi. I must add that sociolinguists are aware of power struggle of governments which has created changes in the cultures and the languages in order to conquer just like the way we don’t speak Farsi in the form of its origin as it was spoken 2500 years ago during the Sasanian era. For, example, Iranian/Turks speak Turkish known to be a language because it has its own form, lexicon, and phonological system.Regards, Hope the exchanges above shed some light on how people (even some scholars) look at the languages and dialects through its changes and the historic evolution.
| Recently by unikresq | Comments | Date |
|---|---|---|
| Greeting in Persian/Farsi | 1 | Sep 15, 2007 |
| Speech Acts | - | Sep 01, 2007 |
RECENT COMMENTS
IRANIANS OF THE DAY
| Person | About | Day |
|---|---|---|
| نسرین ستوده: زندانی روز | Dec 04 | |
| Saeed Malekpour: Prisoner of the day | Lawyer says death sentence suspended | Dec 03 |
| Majid Tavakoli: Prisoner of the day | Iterview with mother | Dec 02 |
| احسان نراقی: جامعه شناس و نویسنده ۱۳۰۵-۱۳۹۱ | Dec 02 | |
| Nasrin Sotoudeh: Prisoner of the day | 46 days on hunger strike | Dec 01 |
| Nasrin Sotoudeh: Graffiti | In Barcelona | Nov 30 |
| گوهر عشقی: مادر ستار بهشتی | Nov 30 | |
| Abdollah Momeni: Prisoner of the day | Activist denied leave and family visits for 1.5 years | Nov 30 |
| محمد کلالی: یکی از حمله کنندگان به سفارت ایران در برلین | Nov 29 | |
| Habibollah Golparipour: Prisoner of the day | Kurdish Activist on Death Row | Nov 28 |
Absurd
by ZanLJackson on Wed Mar 10, 2010 05:17 AM PSTWith all due respect, Ms Farideh, the very general and vague definition you've provided on what separates a language from a dialect and your outrageous clonclusion is at odds with the opinion of every linguist and academic.
Yet supposing, for argument's sake, your definition to be satisfactory, this would not qualify Kurdish as a dialect of Persian.
"A language has form, lexicon, and phonological system" which
based on (sic) such working definition Kurdish is a dialect because its form
(grammar system) is the same as Persian/Farsi with some
phonological/lexical variations."
First and foremost, for Kurdish to qualify as a dialect of Persian, it would be a fundamental requirement for the two to be in the same category of the Indo-Iranian languages. Alas, they are not. Persian is a South-Western Iranian language, whereas Kurdish is North-Western. This alone indicates the presence of great differences between the two. Secondly, Kurdish and Persian grammar, though similar, are by no means identical, and I invite you to read further on this topic. Third, there isn't "some" variation in the phonolocy and lexicon - there is a vast variation which has developed over thousands of years (though as another poster rightly pointed out, Spanish and Italian are separate languages despite posessing low to medium levels of mutual intelligibility). Kurdish forms of Indo-Iranian roots vary greatly from their Persian counterparts. Linguists believe Kurdish to have developed from the Median language spoken by Kurds in ancient times, as opposed to the Old Persian spoken by the ancient Persians. The language of the Medes is held to have been an offshoot of Avestan, an East-Iranian language, thus emphasising again the fact they originate in different sources, and... I cannot believe I'm even in the position of being required to refute a claim so wildly foolish as this... so it is impossible to categorise Kurdish as a dialect of Persian. Additionally, there is substantial variation between the different dialects of Kurdish itself to merit considering, e.g., Kurmanji and Sorani separate languages, as they diverge in grammar and vocabulary to the point that speakers of the two would face great difficulty communicating with one another even at a conversational level.
I don't think it necessary to even touch on what justification you hold to label either of them language, and the other a dialect, or indeed explain why there would be a complete lack of mutual intelligibility between two alleged dialects. The measure of your ignorance simply astounds me, and I would hope that since this question was first posed that you've gotten in the habit of engaging in, even, minimal research before attempting to answer a question.
Kurdish (like Persian,
by K1 (not verified) on Sun Sep 16, 2007 02:01 PM PDTKurdish (like Persian, Balouchi, Gilaki, etc.) is an Iranian language. Persian and Kurdish are closely related languages.
Is Kurdish dialect of Persian/Farsi? Re: Address these points
by unikresq on Sun Sep 16, 2007 01:26 PM PDTDear Iranian Dude, I appreciate your comments. It sounds logical based on your definition of what is language? I would also appreciate citation. Unfortunately you decided to remain anonymous. I would like to look at your sources. To all of those Iranians who may think adversely about asking the original question as spreading hate. This is a democratic way of exchanging opinion and ideas and in a way is a public education to bring us closer and allow us to share how we see the same thing so differently. Some of us may change previously held opinion because another perspective sounds more logical. Regards, Farideh Nejat
Address these points
by iranian dude (not verified) on Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:44 PM PDTI think that you are being very simplistic in your argument, using one definition to settle the score on whether Kurdish is an independent language or dialect of Farsi. If you know at least one definition of language (as you clearly do), you must also know the prevailing view in linguistics that in order to say that one language is a dialect w/ respect to another, the two tongues spoken must be MUTUALLY INTELLIGIBLE. Can you as a Farsi-speaking Iranian understand Kurdish, and can a non-Farsi-speaking Kurd understand you? Probably not.
Furthermore, by your logic, any language with a similar grammar must be a dialect with respect to an arbitrarily chosen "true language" (they say that a language but is a dialect w/ an army). Thus, Portuguese must be a dialect of Spanish, which is a dialect of Italian. Again, not the case. What you COULD say is that Italian, Portuguese, French, Catalan, Spanish, Romanian and the other Romance languages are all "dialects" of Latin. Perhaps Kurdish and Persian are "dialects" of an Indo-Iranian predecessor in the same way (I am not quoting sources here, so I don't feel comfortable saying this is absolutely true). BTW Kurdish is NOT related to Hebrew, Iman; Hebrew is of Semitic origin like Arabic and Syriac, Kurdish is an Indo-Iranian language.
kurdish language is closer
by iman (not verified) on Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:04 AM PDTkurdish language is closer to hebrew than farsi. Kurdish is very similar to aramiac, the language they used for their prayers, blessings, and their talmud.
Wake-up and Strop Spreading Hate
by Kaykaavous (not verified) on Sun Sep 16, 2007 09:02 AM PDTPlease stop spreading hate for a moment and think.
(1) The official language of Iran has always been Parsi, at the same time all Iranian families were free to speak the local language of their choice.
(2) Shahnameh is in Parsi,
(3) Ghazaliat-e Hafez is in Parsi,
(4) Masnavi-e Molavi is in Parsi,
(5) Boostan vas Golestan-e Saedi are in Parsi,
(6) Even Shahriar wrote in Parsi.....
(7) Iranian family of people has always lived in peace with each other. In fact, there are more marriages between different Iranian groups today than ever before in Iranian history.
(8) It is your hatred that is trying to change that. Stop it. Of course you could be mozdoor working on behalf of foreigners.
(9) As for your main question: Yes Kurdish belongs to Iranian group of languages.
Different Languages of iran...
by Professor of Linguistic (not verified) on Sun Sep 16, 2007 08:24 AM PDTThe spoken languages in Iran, their derivatives, and various dialects be it Kurdish, Turkish, Tehranish, Balochish, Rashtish, Korasanish, Arabish etc. all come from a primitive and obsolete language and cultural constructs which has not kept pace with modernity and technological revolution . This has further hampered Iranians ability to culturally evolve and become part of the civilized world. For Iranians to jump-start their lagging journey toward the great civilization the West is enjoying, they must relinquish their backward and barbaric language and embrace English.
i don't really care what
by megabiz on Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:29 AM PDTi don't really care what historians say,but as far as i know, kurdish is very close to Pahlavi language. it seems like they both persian and kurdish were close in parthian and sasanid periods
Re: Is Kurdish a dialect of Persian/Farsi?
by Farrokh (not verified) on Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:08 PM PDTThe answer is NO.
Anyone who is responsible enough and respectful to the truth, just can search in the internet and finds the answer which is "NO".
Now, the better question is "Why should someone ask this question when the answer is well known for ages?". Is it because there is a hope that Kurds finally can be heard through Iraqi Kurdistan and some people (read Persians, Turks in particular and Arabs for known reasons) don't like that? or is it because there are some discussions about Iranian version of Iraqi Freedom? Whatever the reason is, people in Middle East should realize that Kurds are the only nation with distinct and unique language and culture without a state of their own. Their culture is preserved from Persians, Turks and Arabs for thousands of years. These days, everybody is hearing their screams of freedom and Persians, Turks and Arabs should learn to do so.
It is true that in a free speech society you can ask any question you want but when you question the roundness of the earth, people will start to think that you are either don't know what are you talking about or you know that you are wrong and bring some fabricated and undocumented reasons from unknown Dr. and still talk about it anyway. In both cases, people won't waste their time listening to you next time.
Now, some other questions. Who is your Dr.____? and Why you didn't consult with your German, French or American friends?
Parthian you are
by megabiz on Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:21 PM PDTParthian you are misinformed. the truth is the name of iran is simply persia in the western countries. otherwise, you should start refering to germany as dutchland since the native germans call it so... ironically, even indians called ancient iran Fars! for your information check the first bank note ofiran during Naseradin shah which refers to the imperial bank of persia not iran....here is the link
//irancollection.alborzi.com/Naseri/images/qa...
The answer is no!
by Parthian on Sat Sep 15, 2007 09:24 PM PDTKurdish belongs to a family of languages called Indo-Iranian. Farsi (Persian) is also in the same family of languages.
It is almost hideous to see so many Iranians refer to their country and themselves as Persia or Persian. There is no such country, there never was such country. There was first a kingdom, and later a satrap, and now an "Ostan" or province. The country was never called Persia by its own inhabitants. Pars was a Satrap, certainly the central (capital) satrap. Iranians have this complex(oghdeh), they are willing to change the name of their country because lately Iran is been associated with the mullahs.
We are such degenerates, we are willing to call our own country by a western given name because we are unwilling to do the hard thing, namely remove the people who have caused so much shame, and degradation to be associated with our country.
Re: Is Kurdish a dialect of Persian/Farsi?
by SaeedOm (not verified) on Sat Sep 15, 2007 06:40 PM PDTThe answer is who you ask. The expert says:
"The Kurdish language is the language spoken by Kurds. It is mainly concentrated in the region of Kurdistan, which includes parts of Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey.
The Kurdish language belongs to the western sub-group of the Iranian languages, which themselves belong to the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European language family. The most closely related languages to Kurdish are Balochi, Gileki and Talysh, all of which belong to the north-western branch of Iranian languages. Also related to Kurdish is the Persian language, which belongs to the south-western branch.
According to Encyclopaedia Britannica, Kurdish has two main northern and central dialects. The northern dialect, or Kurmanji is spoken in northern half of Iraqi Kurdistan, Caucasus, Turkey, Syria and northwest of Iran. The central group, called Kurdi, or Sorani, is spoken in west of Iran and central part of Iraqi Kurdistan. [13].
According to Philip Kreyenbroek (1992), it may be misleading to call Kurmanji and Sorani/Kurdi "dialects" because they are in some ways as different from one another as German and English. However, it is useful to comment on the differences between the two varieties.
Kurmanji or northern Kurdish is more archaic than the other dialects in both phonetic and morphological structure, and it is conjectured that the differences between central and northern dialects, have been caused by the proximity of central group to the other Iranian languages.[14].
According to Encyclopaedia of Islam, although Kurdish is not a unified language, its many dialects are interrelated and at the same time distinguishable from other western Iranian languages. The same source classifies different Kurdish dialects as two main groups of northern and central. Northern group (Kurmanji) is spoken in Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Mosul and Bahdinan regions in Iraq and Kurdish communities in Khorasan (northeast of Iran). Central group (Sorani) is spoken in Arbil, Sulaimaniya, Kirkuk (all in Iraq) , Mahabad and Sanandaj.