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Baha’i government would be totally tyrannical
09-Aug-2009
The Baha’i
Administrative Order, developed by Shoghi Effendi, and derived from the
writings of Baha’u'llah and Abdu’l-Baha, is a badly flawed and
ineffective mode of government, which would naturally take over an area
if the Baha’is ever became the majority of any place on Earth. Here’s
why that must NEVER happen:
First, Baha’i elections are run in such a way that there are no
nominations, campaigning is forbidden, and the top nine members that
get the most votes are elected. As a result, incumbents are virtually
guaranteed to win, turnover is extremely low, and the policies of
adminstrative bodies cannot be challenged by outsiders at elections.
There is no freedom in such elections.
Second, consider this quote from Baha’u'llah himself:
Consider the pettiness of
men’s minds. They ask for that which injureth them, and cast away the
thing that profiteth them. They are, indeed, of those that are far
astray. We find some men desiring liberty, and priding themselves
therein. Such men are in the depths of ignorance.
Liberty must, in the end,
lead to sedition, whose flames none can quench. Thus warneth you He Who
is the Reckoner, the All-Knowing. Know ye that the embodiment of
liberty and its symbol is the animal. That which beseemeth man is
submission unto such restraints as will protect him from his own
ignorance, and guard him against the harm of the mischief-maker.
Liberty causeth man to overstep the bounds of propriety, and to
infringe on the dignity of his station. It debaseth him to the level of
extreme depravity and wickedness.
Regard men as a flock of
sheep that need a shepherd for their protection. This, verily, is the
truth, the certain truth. We approve of liberty in certain
circumstances, and refuse to sanction it in others. We, verily, are the
All-Knowing.
Say: True liberty
consisteth in man’s submission unto My commandments, little as ye know
it. Were men to observe that which We have sent down unto them from the
Heaven of Revelation, they would, of a certainty, attain unto perfect
liberty. Happy is the man that hath apprehended the Purpose of God in
whatever He hath revealed from the Heaven of His Will, that pervadeth
all created things. Say: The liberty that profiteth you is to be found
nowhere except in complete servitude unto God, the Eternal Truth. Whoso
hath tasted of its sweetness will refuse to barter it for all the
dominion of earth and heaven.
I think George Orwell would call this sort of thing “doublespeak”.
Of course, if you are a Libertarian, this is total nonsense to you. War
is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength. NOT!
Third, Baha’ullah himself made many laws in his writings that for
Baha’is can never be challenged or overturned, not even by Baha’i
administration bodies. Even worse, the interpretation of those laws by
Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi also cannot be challenged or overturned.
The legislative functions of those bodies, including the Universal
House of Justice, are thus extremely limited. Baha’is have NO real
freedom!
Consider this testimony from another ex-Baha’i:
//www.bahai-faith.com/ex-Bahai-10.html
I used to be a member of
the Baha’i Faith, and though it has some very good points, it
ultimately fails to pass the test of independent investigation. Baha’is
usually seek an image as being very liberal and open-minded, to attract
seekers no doubt. Once within the community however, you are very
limited in terms of how you should feel about any aspect of life… it
has to be the “Baha’i Way” or no way. In fact, you may find yourself in
a ridiculous situation if you have unique family situations…
Are you adopted? Oh, too
bad if you were wanting to get married…. Better hope you can track down
your biological parents, or you will face a real nightmare, because you
need their permission before you can marry if they are still living. If
they, let’s say, don’t like “negroes” and you want to marry
interracially, then despite the fact that they have never seen you
before in their lives (because they dumped you at an orphanage) you are
forbidden to marry, and face severe penalities if you do so anyways.
Have you, or anyone you know, had an experience where you faced a four
fold conflict with: the love of your life, a biological parent you’ve
never met (or a hard-headed parent with predjuices against your love’s
race), the Baha’i religious administration, and your own conscience.
Nowhere does the injustice and absurdity of Baha’i law become more
obvious than on the issue of homosexuality. This statement from Shoghi
Effendi about homosexuality is truly moronic:
No matter how devoted and
fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find
expression in sexual acts is wrong. To say that it is ideal is no
excuse. Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Baha’u'llah,
and homosexual relationships he looks upon as such, besides being
against nature…To be afflicted this way is a great burden to a
conscientious soul. But through the advice and help doctors, through a
strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome
this handicap.
There
is not a shred of evidence for the assertion in the last sentence. Yet,
as a Baha’i, one must accept that claim as absolute truth and ignore
the evidence that suggests otherwise. Why? Simply because Shoghi
Effendi, the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith, was said to be infallible!
The Universal House of Justice (UHJ) says about the same issue:
//bahai-library.org/uhj/homosexuality.uhj.html
The Universal House of
Justice is authorized to change or repeal its own legislation as
conditions change, thus providing Baha’i law with an essential element
of flexibility, but it cannot abrogate or change any of the laws which
are explicitly laid down in the sacred Texts. It follows, then that the
House of Justice has no authority to change this clear teaching on
homosexual practice.
Then why bother to have a UHJ at all? It is toothless!
The
view that homosexuality is a condition that is not amenable to change
is to be questioned by Baha’is. There are, of course, many kinds and
degrees of homosexuality, and overcoming extreme conditions is sure to
be more difficult than overcoming others. Nevertheless, as noted
earlier, the Guardian has stated that “through the advice and help of
doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a
soul can overcome this handicap.”
The statistics which indicate that homosexuality is incurable are
undoubtedly distorted by the fact that many of those who overcome the
problem never speak about it in public, and others solve their problems
without even consulting professional counselors.
Again,
no evidence, just assertions. The fact that there is a homosexual
community even in the face of overwhelming opposition from conservative
religious and political forces means that we must reject the Baha’i
assumptions in the name of true justice.
From the same letter by the UHJ:
To regard homosexuals
with prejudice and disdain would be entirely against the spirit of
Baha’i Teachings. The doors are open for all of humanity to enter the
Cause of God, irrespective of their present circumstances; this
invitation applies to homosexuals as well as to any others who are
engaged in practices contrary to the Baha’i Teachings.
More doublespeak. No thanks, we need better honesty than that.
We need to free ourselves from this sort of dogmatic extremism, not
allow ourselves to be led into it once more by idealistic seduction. Do
Baha’i teachers tell seekers about their teachings of homosexuality? If
I were gay, I would never join any religion that didn’t respect a basic
part of my character!
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Anti-Bahaism is fed by lies and fears
by Sen McGlinn on Thu Sep 24, 2009 01:02 PM PDTZulfiqar says:
The Baha’i Administrative Order, ... is a badly flawed and
ineffective mode of government, which would naturally take over an area if the Baha’is ever became the majority of any place on Earth
.
But Shoghi Effendi, who developed this Administrative Order, tells the Bahais they must never "allow the machinery of their administration to supersede the government
of their respective countries." Anyone who wishes can read what Shoghi Effendi wrote here, and can see what purpose he intended the Administrative Order to serve: it is simply the authority that administers the affairs of the Bahai community, which does not have any priesthood, no Mullahs, Ayatollahs. The Bahai Administrative Order is not permitted to interfere at all in political matters, as Abdu'l-Baha commanded ;
“Should they place in the arena the crown of the government of the
whole world, and invite each one of us to accept it, undoubtedly we
shall not condescend, and shall refuse to accept it.” ( Tablets of the Divine Plan 51)
~~ Sen McGlinn ~~
________
What I can do, is keep my arm
from bringing others any harm.
How can I give the enviers ease?
They are themselves their own disease.
(Sa'di, Gulestan 1:5)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Email: Sen.Sonja[at]Casema.
Apparently Sooner & Not Later
by Anvar on Wed Aug 12, 2009 06:56 AM PDTYes, *sophia*, minions. And apparently sooner & not later as the proof of the pudding is in the eating!
Thanks for the re-education and the reminder. I had misplaced my own documents. You are free to decide with whom you’d like to associate, and so am I. (Perhaps,) You have chosen to surround yourself with a handful of Baha’i Covenant Breakers. I have chosen to surround myself with millions of Baha’i Covenant Keepers. What exactly is your issue here? Are you objecting to my freedom of choice or yours? I’m not trying to keep you from befriending “Martin Lavallee”, or others like him, on his Facebook. I would, however, do my best to educate the Baha’is (and true inquirers) when people try to deceitfully fool them by pretending to be a Baha’i. You can even find a few of them on this very site. My desire to disseminate information does not apply to you as you are neither a Baha’i nor a true inquirer. So, why do you, and you know who, keep sweating about Baha’i guidelines? They apply only to those who are Baha’is on a voluntary basis! As I’ve stated before, I am a Baha’i by choice and wholeheartedly believe in its spiritual teachings and its administrative order. If I don’t feel oppressed, don’t feel depressed for me.
You know, *Zulfiqar110* isn’t the only one that I love. I love you too!
Anvar
Faryar
by Kourosh Aryamanesh on Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:40 AM PDTمدتی است که مزخرفات امت حزب الله در رابطه با حمله به دين بهايی و هموطنان بهايی را در اين تارنما ميخونم و متوجه شدم که هميشه در جواب اينها شما خارج از ادب صحبت نکرديد، پس اجازه بديد که من لامذهب نکته ای را روشن کنم. اين امت چند قرنيست که بنا به جفنگيات و مهملات آخوندی و اسلام فيضيه ای ، موتور مغزيشان گيريپاج کرده و چند تا سيلندراش درست کار نميکنه. تا بخوان موتور عوض کنن و آب بندی بشن چند تا نسل طول ميکشه تازه مشروط بر اينکه روغن خريت به خوردشون نره. خوداشون با هم سر سازگاری ندارن و مشغول تيکه پاره کردن همديگن. ثنی و شيعه فرق نميکنه . با ديدن یه کارتون کمر قتل ميبندن و دنيا به هم ميخوره چون فکر ميکنن به پيغمبرشون توهين شده و بيضۀ اسلام را در خطر ميبينن. بد نميشد اگه از سورۀ ياسين يک ويديوی صوتی درست ميکردن و تو گوش اينا مرتبأ ميخوندن
من ز حيوان مردم و آدم شدم. اينا هنوز يه چيزی فی مابينن و آدم نما.
"Mona Tahiri".
by faryarm on Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:20 AM PDTMona Tahiri
Stop provocative comments , trying to pass off as a Bahai comment.
By the way, Baha'u'llah was NOT GOD and No Bahai believes He was.
Please Leave Wahid Azal/Nima Hazini/ Nur and Zulf Alone...
He is doing a fine job ; it doesnt take long for any one, to recognize his motives.
Zulfi you are evil
by Mona Tahiri on Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:04 AM PDTMay God Bahaola deal with you. i am sure that "the most grate peace" will never be established with the evil people like you on this beautiful earth. yu are a dirty guy with a brain full of garbage and dirty things. i am sorry if this gives you pain.
Dale Husband's response
by Zulfiqar110 on Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:50 PM PDTNon-Baha'is see,
Baha'i cult FAQ
Dale's response from his blog
August 10, 2009 at 6:40 PM
I was unable to create an account at the website in question, but Wahid Azal was still able to post a copy of my blog there:
//iranian.com/main/blog/zulfiqar110/baha-i-government-would-be-totally-tyrannical
There was one positive response so far:
ALL regligion-base government are…tyrannical! If a Bahai
argues that a government based on the Bahai religion will be any
different than, for example, the current Eslamic government, I’ll be
the first one to criticize it. But if the issue is to consider Iranian
Bahais as full citizens who must be protected by the constitution, I’m
all for it.
by Ostaad on Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:23 PM PDT
Dale Husband: I agree with this. Baha’is’ rights should never be violated by an Islamic government or any other.
The denialist responses from Baha’is were about what I expected:
Ey morghe Hazin dont you worry, there will not be a
Bahai Government. The aim of the Bahai, Gods’ teachings is to change
your self destructive hate and agitation into peace, not to change your
government. What good will it do to change government with the same
people like you with different names. Look how many times you have had
to change your name and you are still the same afflicted soul.
By the way ghamgini is only trying to steal the spot light and
detract people from the atrocities being committed in Iran by his
brothers. They have used this tactic for the past 160 years with Bahais
and before that.. . Every time there is discontent with the government
they find Bahais as their sacrificial lamb.
by Waters on Sun Aug 09, 2009 03:01 PM PDT
Nima Hazini/Wahid Azal/Zulf…and all your future
aliases..Take your meds ; you might learn to distort less, tell less
Lies, Tell the truth more and hopefully need less of your prescriptions…
by faryarm on Sun Aug 09, 2009 01:46 PM PDT
This attack on the Baha’i Faith is quite a distortion of
reality – as are most, if not all, such attacks. I will limit myself to
a few comments.
Firstly, if you think that the nominating and campaigning process
currently existing in the political process makes for a good selection
of leaders, I am simply amazed. The whole injection of money, special
interests, and ego into the political process both greatly limits the
choice of the people and also creates an incredibly corrupt government.
Now……this process may be preferable to a more tyrannical form of
government – but it is far from ideal. Over the past 39 years, I have
seen the Baha’i electoral process on a local, national and
international level and it is a simple beautiful and spiritual process
– that allows people complete freedom of choice – while avoiding the
corruptive influences that are inherant in the current political
processes around the world. The process is this:
On a local level, all adult Baha’is gather together and, after
prayerfully considering those who can best ‘combine the necessary
qualities of unquestioned loyalty, of selfless devotion, of a
well-trained mind, of recognized ability and mature experience”.and,
after privately casting their ballot, the 9 people with the most votes
form the Local Spiritual Assembly. The community is then asked if they
accept the reults of the election. (Basically, the same process takes
place on a national and international level – except that it happens
every 5 years on the international level.)
Now, while it may be true that, thus far, the Baha’is elect
incumbants to a great degree, they have the complete freedom in their
choice and complete freedom in their questioning the results of the
election – so where is the fault with this?
As far aThe requirements for Baha’i marriage are simple. First the
man and woman must decide for themselves that they want to be married
(ie, no arranged marriages by parents & relatives). Secondly, they
must get permission from all living parents – unless there are extreme
cases of mental incompetency, etc. Thirdly, they must repeat the vow
‘We will all, verily, abide by the Will of God’ in front of 2 witnesses
approved by the Local Spiritual Assembly. That’s it! Very simple –
although Baha’is can add prayers, readings, music, etc to the marriage
ceremony.
As far as the comments on homosexual behavior – yes, such behavior
is not morally acceptable according to Baha’i law but neither is
heterosexual behavior outside of marriage. Baha’is do not judge anyone
– but, as Baha’u'llah has given us very high moral standards (including
no alcohol, drugs, etc,) as Baha’is we must do our best to try to
overcome our weaknesses – even though it may take a lifetime to do so.
The real question is: is Baha’u'llah a Messenger from God? If He is,
then from a Baha’i point of view, such questioning is irrelevant –
except in our attempts to understand His laws and teachings. If He is
not a Messenger, then He suffered in prison and exile for over 40 years
for nothing – as did 10s of thousands who have given their life (and
are still doing so) over the past 165 years – mostly in Iran.
Baha’u'llah says that we should not blindly follow our ancestors,
religious leaders, etc – that we need to think and see for ourselves.
So….I encourage you to rid yourselves of whatever prejudices you have
learned in the past and, with an open mind, investigate.
by Alrandolin on Sun Aug 09, 2009 09:19 AM PDT
Dale Husband: So this is what Baha’is do when they are
confronted with the absurdity of their dogmas: Personal attacks,
innuendo, and parroting the talking points instead of dealing with the
real issues I raised! I’m glad I’m no longer one of them!
Dear Ostaad;
by faryarm on Mon Aug 10, 2009 05:12 PM PDTDemocratic governance is essentially dependent on universal participation of the people.
Universal participation would not be effective without an informed electorate.
An informed electorate depends on the personal knowledge and sound judgment of the individual.
The central tenet of Bahai is Unity; to create Unity in Diversity. Unity starts with oneself; personal growth by abiding by spiritual principles.
The kind of governance spoken of by Baha'u'llah in His teachings, can not be imagined by the average person today; for Bahai teachings compare our present state of maturity to one slowly emerging from troubled adolescence, still far from reaching that ultimate state of Spiritual wisdom and maturity, when as One Humanity we will have replaced competition with cooperation and hatred with love and understanding.
It is only under this context of spiritual maturity ,where one can discuss the future governance of mankind.
ALL regligion-base government are...
by Ostaad on Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:23 PM PDTtyrannical!
If a Bahai argues that a government based on the Bahai religion will be any different than, for example, the current Eslamic government, I'll be the first one to criticize it. But if the issue is to consider Iranian Bahais as full citizens who must be protected by the constitution, I'm all for it.
Ey morghe Hazin
by Waters on Sun Aug 09, 2009 03:01 PM PDTdont you worry, there will not be a Bahai Government. The aim of the Bahai, Gods' teachings is to change your self destructive hate and agitation into peace, not to change your government. What good will it do to change government with the same people like you with different names. Look how many times you have had to change your name and you are still the same afflicted soul.
By the way ghamgini is only trying to steal the spot light and detract people from the atrocities being committed in Iran by his brothers. They have used this tactic for the past 160 years with Bahais and before that.. . Every time there is discontent with the government they find Bahais as their sacrificial lamb.
Nima Hazini/Wahid Azal/Zulf...and all your future aliases..
by faryarm on Sun Aug 09, 2009 01:46 PM PDTNima Hazini/Wahid Azal/Zulf...and all your future aliases..
Take your meds ; you might learn to distort less, tell less Lies, Tell the truth more and hopefully need less of your prescriptions...
Attack on Baha'i Faith is a distortion of reality
by Alrandolin on Sun Aug 09, 2009 09:19 AM PDTThis attack on the Baha'i Faith is quite a distortion of reality - as are most, if not all, such attacks. I will limit myself to a few comments.
Firstly, if you think that the nominating and campaigning process currently existing in the political process makes for a good selection of leaders, I am simply amazed. The whole injection of money, special interests, and ego into the political process both greatly limits the choice of the people and also creates an incredibly corrupt government. Now......this process may be preferable to a more tyrannical form of government - but it is far from ideal. Over the past 39 years, I have seen the Baha'i electoral process on a local, national and international level and it is a simple beautiful and spiritual process - that allows people complete freedom of choice - while avoiding the corruptive influences that are inherant in the current political processes around the world. The process is this:
On a local level, all adult Baha'is gather together and, after prayerfully considering those who can best 'combine the necessary qualities of unquestioned loyalty, of selfless devotion, of a well-trained mind, of recognized ability and mature experience".and, after privately casting their ballot, the 9 people with the most votes form the Local Spiritual Assembly. The community is then asked if they accept the reults of the election. (Basically, the same process takes place on a national and international level - except that it happens every 5 years on the international level.)
Now, while it may be true that, thus far, the Baha'is elect incumbants to a great degree, they have the complete freedom in their choice and complete freedom in their questioning the results of the election - so where is the fault with this?
As far aThe requirements for Baha'i marriage are simple. First the man and woman must decide for themselves that they want to be married (ie, no arranged marriages by parents & relatives). Secondly, they must get permission from all living parents - unless there are extreme cases of mental incompetency, etc. Thirdly, they must repeat the vow 'We will all, verily, abide by the Will of God' in front of 2 witnesses approved by the Local Spiritual Assembly. That's it! Very simple - although Baha'is can add prayers, readings, music, etc to the marriage ceremony.
As far as the comments on homosexual behavior - yes, such behavior is not morally acceptable according to Baha'i law but neither is heterosexual behavior outside of marriage. Baha'is do not judge anyone - but, as Baha'u'llah has given us very high moral standards (including no alcohol, drugs, etc,) as Baha'is we must do our best to try to overcome our weaknesses - even though it may take a lifetime to do so.
The real question is: is Baha'u'llah a Messenger from God? If He is, then from a Baha'i point of view, such questioning is irrelevant - except in our attempts to understand His laws and teachings. If He is not a Messenger, then He suffered in prison and exile for over 40 years for nothing - as did 10s of thousands who have given their life (and are still doing so) over the past 165 years - mostly in Iran.
Baha'u'llah says that we should not blindly follow our ancestors, religious leaders, etc - that we need to think and see for ourselves. So....I encourage you to rid yourselves of whatever prejudices you have learned in the past and, with an open mind, investigate.