News

So are you.

L'chaim.

rosie you are brave

.....

VPK, for me it's worth it.

First of all, I want all this to be here, where everyone can read it.

Second, I want to try to explain to Abarmard what I meant at the end of my first long post when I said that if you don't keep the moral high ground, even if you win, you've already lost.

But since you've asked me why I'm doing this, I'll explain it now.

What I meant was the "truth shall set you free". You, us, Palestine, Iran. All of humanity.

The truth shall set us free.

Rosie

You are not going to get fairness out of this group. They will not be fair; will twist the truth to fit their ideas. They specially Abarmard have an agenda to pump up the Palestinian cause. No matter what Pals are always right and others are always wrong. 

Pals get to disrupt meetings and that is fine. Pals get to side with Saddam and Iranians are supposed to side with them anyway. Pals are God's gift to the world and beyond reproach. Now do you get why it is a waste of time talking to this guys?

VPK

That's alright No Fear

You already answered me and anyone else with an open mind. 

Okay, Abarmard, I'll try again.

by Abarmard on Wed Jun 16, 2010 01:41 PM PDT

Then raised their arm and left without any resistance. What part was a thug? Did you see the film? Be fair

Abarmard, where did you see this in the film? Where? We saw a few students being led out by the campus police. One of them raised his arms. But we're not talking just about them, we here on the thread. We're talking about all the students. What did all the others  do? After 'speaking'. Loudly.

INow, I know you didn't direct your question to me but I assume it's okay for me to answer since you suggest that it's okay for the students to speak 'out of turn', so I'll answer. Yes, I did see the film. And I I just watched it again to make sure I was right before I wrote this because I couldn't believe that you would say something so blatantly wrong.

Abarmard, please. I beg of you. Tell me where exactly in the film I missed these things you say happened. So I can retract my statements and breathe easy and say 'Horray for our side!"

Abarmard, be fair.

***

Later on on you wrote:

I have spend most of my adult years in universities and higher education institutions, and I can tell you how many student organizations, mostly Jewish against Arab officials, I have seen to dress as clowns, throw empty plastic bottles or just lay on the floor in front of the podium to express their dissatisfaction with whatever the official represented. 

This seems to me to imply that the students in this video did something similar to at least one thing you just mentioned. Now clearly I may be wrong here because it's just an inference. But if I'm right, you've contradicted your first statement quoted above. Please, Abarmard, please. Tell me I'm wrong.

VPK and DR X

VPK,

I am not playing games. I don't know what you are talking about when claiming "30 years ago palestinians took up arms against Iran."  Do you mean when the lebanese Amal group were involved with Dr. Chamran ? Or when Yaser Arafat visited Iran? Can you be more specific please. I sincerely do not know what you guys are talking about. Are you inventing history, or do you have any evidence of your claims?

Dr X,   Grow up.

No fear

Nice Try.

The question won't be repeated so you can go all the way back to the start and tell me everything that you constantly repeat in every single one of your posts.

This strategy of your has gotten waaaaaaay too old.

No Fear;

You said; " Why did our brothers took up arms against us 30 years ago? Why were we betrayed? "

I don't understand what or who you are refering to. Could you please
help a fellow Iranian who is not very sharp, with a bit more
elaboration? Thank you.

The "brothers" are the Palestinian. Why are you playing games? Pretending to not get the question. Neither you nor "Abarmard" have given a response. Making it obvious that criticism of Palestinians is off limits to you both. 

Basically the Pals get to attack Iranians with impunity. Neither you or Abarmard or any other IRI supporter will say a word. Wonderful to know how incredibly biased you are. Palestinian above Iran.

Dan,

thanks for the long, detailed, and heartfelt reply.

Now, again, you said in your first post that the speaker was "treated in such a civilized manner by such respectful-of-the-process students, UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES, it's hard not to be impressed by those students".

Dan, if someone tries to rape me and I kick him in the balls, my action is justified, even admirable. If I see someone trying to rape someone else and I run over and kick him in the balls, my action is not only admirable, it's heroic.

But I'm not behaving in a 'civilized manner'. I'm behaving like an animal because I'm dealing with an animal.

Can we or agree on this? Because if we can't, the discusson between us is going to lead to nowhere.

_________________

And Dan, I' think I should remind you that I said I have sympathy with the action. The problem I have is with the MSU claiming they didn't organize it if in fact they did. Just so hopefully you won't project all kinds of things onto me.

I assume I am reminding you, because I assume you read my other posts on the affair, and not just the one specifically to you.

what does the university by-laws say about the incident?

what does the university by-laws say about the incident?  Is the university within their rights to have a peaceful lecture held in the auditorium?  Do the later protestors face stiffer penalties because they were warned after the first few were thrown out?

I am also thinking of a few scenarios:

case 1: I am just thinking that if we invited someone to talk about the latest findings on the theory of evolution and some religious (non-Islamic, of course) nutcases showed up at the lecture, disrupted the talk in favor of creationism the way these guys did, what should we do:

* throw the protestors out because a larger group has gathered to hear the lecturer.

* Ask them to wait until the end of the lecture for Q/A.

case 2: I am also thinking about an anti-war NYT reporter who was invited by a group of Iranian Jews/Baha'is last year to a synagogue in LA (cannot rememeber the name).  The audience listened politely to the lecture but at the end asked very aggressive questions.  Should they have disrupted the reporter because they (the majority of the audience) did not agree with the speaker?

case 3: Lastly, we come to the sad situation in Iran where a student like Mohammad Rashidi  is arrested, tortured and still resides in prison just for holding up a sign protesting the visit of AN.  I would like to ask these Palestinian supporters if they showed any outrage back then?

Kind Courtesy To Defender of Raid: Like Pearls before Swine

Rosie, in a democratic forum when people come to make a statement by their comments or by their behavior regarding, by everybody's standards but the perpetrators, despicable acts of brutality and murder, and those people raise their hand to be recognized, say what's on their mind, and then peacefully leave the premises, it seemed even before they were asked, to me, that's being respectful-of-the-process, maybe even too much so. They could have persisted and been physically assisted from the room by some of the multitude of sergeant-at-arms types who seemed to be ready and willing for the opportunity to demean those students.

No one was physically threatening to the representative defending the illegal attack and the murders. As others have said on this site "Freedom demands responsibility". Especially responsibility to a sense of justice. In my opinion, the students expressed appropriate disdain for the behavior the representative wanted to excuse.

The representative, and it seems you, and some others responding on this blog, appear to suggest actions of the most despicable nature which were taken by orders of the leadership of a nation, because that nation is a powerful and influential nation, should not be addressed with vehemence in a public gathering. That's ludicrous.

If the representative had come to apologize, with an explanation as to how it could have happened in some understandable way, to a group of Muslim American young people that one of their own, along with eight unarmed associates, were gunned down, and the students were disrespectful in spite of the representatives sorrow and apology, that would have been shameful on their part.

This representative did not come in that manner. As a matter of fact, he appeared to wish to convey an air of superiority and triumphalism. He appeared to not have the slightest inclination to apologize for anything,  Shame on him . Shame on his country for it's despicable behavior.

Sorry to get back to the specific blog topic...(Dan Huck)

Sorry to get back to the specific blog topic for a moment instead of the broader geopolitical debate but reading something like this:

When the official representative of an apartheid regime which treats it's Muslim citizens as entrapped "dogs"...is treated in such a civilized manner by such respectful-of-the-process students, UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES, it's hard not to be impressed by those students.

Under what circumstances were they respectful, Dan? Watching the video on acid?

That's what's at the root of the whole problem. Hardly anybody on either side is willing to face the whole the realities squarely, even when it bites them in the nose. The majority of people in the world now know the Palestinians are victims, but there would be a lot more progress everywhere with all political problems if we all decided honesty is the best policy.

Sorry to be so hokey but it really is that simple. And lying to ourselves is the most dangerous lying of all.

_____________________

And Abarmard, once again, final notes to whom?

Doctor X,

A few days ago you questioned my English language skills ( Your first ever comment to me ) and accused me of this and that. When i replied back to you ( In length ) , you just disappeared and didn't bother to reply back to a few questions i had from you.

I expect our future engagements to be better than our first one.

You said; " Why did our brothers took up arms against us 30 years ago? Why were we betrayed? "

I don't understand what or who you are refering to. Could you please help a fellow Iranian who is not very sharp, with a bit more elaboration? Thank you.

No Fear

Would you please Just answer the Question?

Why did our brothers took up arms against us 30 years ago? Why were we betrayed?

When will Israel cease to be a threat, especially if according to you "destablizing" the Region is the Ultimate goal for iran!

VPK...

Palestinians and lebanese are paying dearly and heavily because of Iran long term interests in the region. South Lebanon was reduced to rubbles because of Hezbollah which in turn, is a iranian creation.

Iran has tremendous influence over the peace process in middle east and as long as Israel is a threat, Iran will prevent any meaningful peace between the parties involved, naturally. Although this policy serves Iran's national interests at this moment, it is against the palestinian moderates and their desire for peace. It is safe to say, that palestinians are paying for our security and ambition. This is what most arab nations are saying as well, and believe me, there are some truth to the matter.

For once, try not to be so narrow minded. At the very least, we should help those who paid a price for us and are still paying a price, not to end up with a crappy deal. Support them financially and provide them with arms if we have to. This is the very least we can do for our muslim brothers.

No Fear

I am not picking on the Palstinians. In the past I have argued their case to Americans to a point of being called anti-semite. My point of this discussion is to see if I can get just one of the IRI supporters to admist that Palestinians have not shown much gratitude to Iran. I just want to know if there is any "ensaf" in the IRI supporters.

Now to your other questions:

I do condemn other nations when it makes sense.

• Top of the list is Britain for its endless anti Iranian acts.
• Yes the USA for the deliberate shooting of Iranian jet.
• France for giving comfort to both Khomeini and the MKO.
• Taliban for being anti human and killing Iranian diplomats.
• China for its actions in Tibet.
• Russia for taking away major parts of Iran in the past.
• EU for being hypocrites and splitting up Serbia.
• US for nuking Japan.
• Japan for wrecking China.

You just have not read all my writings. However you guys keep bringing up Palestine so I am forced to focus on that. It is getting in the way of discussing Iran. That is why.

VPK

VPK,

You are looking at this the wrong way. Why do you want to degrade international politics down to the street level and school yard politic that you are used to?

People in Dubai were celebrating on the streets when Iran was bombed but also many people in Texas share the same sentiment now and dance to the tune of " bomb Iran". And believe me, a happy trigger yankee scares me a lot more than a palestinian with rocks in his hands. But so what ? Whats your point?

You want to say that since there were a few hundred palestinians in Iraqi army, therefore , we, as a stuck up in the ass Aryan nation should confront these primitive sand niggas because they are arab? pathetic, really, pathetic.

We have been hurt a lot more by other nations which even a few faction of their population would be hundred times more than the entire palestinian population, combined. Why don't you pick on them, sissy? Why don't you confront the germans for selling chemical weapons to Iraq? Why don't you confront the US for shutting down our civilian aircraft? But no, you have to pick on the most vulnerable and under privileged nation on earth, because you are one fucking proud aryan .

Once more

You know exactly what I mean. The German government did sell chemical agents to Iraq. But the German people as a whole did not take sides. The same for Russia; US; and so on.

The Palestinian population by a large majority sided with Iraq. You know this and so does everyone. So stop pretending that you don't see what I say.

Regarding the Iranians who sided with Iraq I have condemned them. But the reason for MKO was not race it was power. They sold their nation for promise of power. A sickening thing indeed.

I gave you the reason why MKO sided with Iraq. Now would you please give me the reason why Palstinians sided with Iraq. No safsate va mahlate just get to the point.

VPK,

I disagree with the simplistic way that you view international relations.

What do you even mean by "The Palestinians joined Iraq as a whole. While others did not. "  ??

What about Germany who sold chemical agents to Iraq? Or US which sold all the military hardwares along with Russia and others? The US shot down a civilian aircraft and yet , people like you look up to them as the greatest thing since lollipop!

You logic is flawed.  There were more Iranians fighting Iran during the war, than there were palestinians in Iraqi army. How about that?

Are you playing the race card here?

Revenge

I did not say take revenge; you did.

However lets go into some details. There is a difference if a handful of mercenaries joined Iraq vs. the vast majority another nation. The Palestinians joined Iraq as a whole. While others did not. 

What I am asking is simply why did Palestinians side with Iraq. It was not because of lack of support from Iran. If anything the IRI has been on the forefront of their cause. It is even risking its own people for them. So why did they not remain neutral. One reason comes to mind: Arab unity or race. They put their race ahead of their friends. This sounds to me like classic racism.

If you disagree please tell me why.

VPK...

Iran had POWs of atleast 13 different countries which all sided with Iraq during the war time. ( Philippinos, Malayan, Pakistanis, Indian, Palestinians, Jordanians, Saudis, Qataris, Yemenis, and few other nations).

Do you think we should take revenge against all these countries?

Aside from the point i am making, let me add that when it comes to international politics, relationships are based on "cost and benefits". Revenge seeking bully attitudes belong to school playgrounds or at best, to forums filled with half baked comments.

Let me assure you that despite what you believe and think, supporting the just cause of the palestinian is a policy which serves the entire middle east and as a result is in our benefit. Needless to say that those we support are strategically located near our main adversary in the region who has a habbit of bombing nuclear facilities.

MM jaan

Thank you. The Palestinians are digging their own graves. The Iranian people will win and pay the scumbags back. This regime does not even trust its own goons. No wonder IRR gang are so in love with Pal scum.

VPK, according to the enclosed Sepahi confessions

VPK,

None of these IRI folks are going to tell you bad things about Palestinians, etc.  According to the enclosed Sepahi video confessions, since Iranians (even Basiji/Sepaahi) are hesitant to shoot demonstrators, non-Iranian Arabs and the Ghods personnel are recruited by IRI to do the hard-core shootings of the protestors on the streets of Iran.

Former Revolutionary Guards Reveal Increasing Tensions in Iran Regime! (GRAPHIC) Part 1/2 JUNE 11

Former Revolutionary Guards Reveal Increasing Tensions in Iran Regime! (GRAPHIC) Part 2/2 JUNE 11

Abarmard

I asked a very specific question and you chose to not answer it. Maybe you missed my post. I will repeat the summary below and respectfully request that you respond to it.

Now to your points. Yes, there is an injustice no question about it. It is not the only injustice but it is definitely one. There is also hypocracy on the side of the West. I am not surprised because I am not naive and have learned to expect it. I also agree that I do not need to like IR or even Islam to agree that the Palestinians are getting the shaft big time. I disagree that discussing Israel's "crimes" is not popular. In fact there are many blogs; forums and so that do nothing but discuss it. It used to be off limits when there was the "Main Stream" media. But with the advent of the web there is many places that discuss this.  Now back to my point please answer my question. I want to know what you think.

Did the Palestinians betray Iran? Did they side with Saddam in the war and if so why? Is that the way to pay back the one nation that stood
behind them.

I think they sided with Saddam because they are Arabs and so was
Saddam. What kind of culture puts race above friendship. Isn't that racism. If so will you condemn it for what it is. If not please explain to me why it is not racism.

Summary of my question:

Final note?

To whom?

Final Note

My concerns are focused on the United States government. I don't expect anything from Israeli regime, it's like expecting IR to allow women to roam freely tomorrow. That's not possible at the moment.

US however enjoys a great system that has many religions, ideas, and views work together freely. Not apartheid like Israel. However, how can we get US back to concentrate on US benefits rather than Israel's. The amount of hush hush about Israeli actions in US media and politics is sickening. That is the main point about this article and comments.

Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

In all the confusion, what works is political ideologies to direct moral issues. It is difficult to recognize a political and ideological norm vs human suffering.

From Iranian perspective, look at Iran from the angle of fighting for rights, for the people. That's the ultimate price that people can gain and win. Therefore, looking at rights for Iranians is the key. Extend that to other places. Israel today is on the lens and the country is directly connected to whether Iran will suffer a bloody war or not. That's the political way. The human level is that there are millions of people who are in prisons made by Western nations (monitored by Israel), who claim human rights and democracy is their objective.

Fighting for the rights for the Palestinians is not only a political objective to overthrow puppet systems and regain the region, but a right thing to do from human rights policy. You do not need to like IR to agree with the Palestinians. Unfortunately many draw that parallel.

At the end, you have a choice to accept that there is problem, or let go and ignore it (or even agree that there are no problems). You have your choice, I have mine. Realizing Israeli evil crimes is not very popular and comes with prices to pay, but I believe is the right thing to do.

ps Abarmard,

if the MSU can prove that another group there have organized the same ttype of thing  without the organization being suspended, the suspension should be revoked, MSU's legal fees returned, and a contract issued to be signed by all student organizations that they are aware their activities will be suspended if they organize actions which purposely stop an invited speaker from speaking.   

(I have a feeling if the lawyer seriously threatened that, the whole thing might be resolved pretty quickly out of court...).

I'm operating on the assumption that MSU really did organize the action, and that the proof the university has is legitimate. It appears you are too.

But Abarmard,

Therefore, according to Cycleforward,if students demonstrate their anger against any officials, foreign or domestic, they deserve to be kicked out of that institution for one year!

The article doesn't say anything about students being 'kicked out' (i.e. suspended). Just the organization. (Unless I missed something because I can't open the item again about the twelve arrested ones). Anyway, I have also spent much of my adult years in higher education institutions, and I would recommend these disciplinary measures for the actions you mentioned:

dressing as clowns-none; throwing empty plastic bottles-none to one year suspension, depending on where and how thrown and who hit or not;  lay on the floor in front of the podium to express their dissatisfaction with whatever the official represented--probably none, if they did classic passive resistance by allowing themselves to be bodily removed. (Good strategy, it takes a while to remove a lot of people). 

NONE were ever punished beyond being kicked out of the hall. And rightly so.

Disagree. Wrongly so. How much of your experience has been at US colleges? What a mess the country is in, thanks largely to the educational system. This country is drunk on 'freedom' to do god knows what they think they're doing.

Again, at the beginning of your post you talk about students being kicked out. But in the second paragraph you talk about organizations being suspended. You are usually clearer. 

Also, what would you recommend if an organization and/or student did a heckling, plastic bottle throwing action against a professor in a classroom. Would you recommend the same disciplinary measure as with an invited speaker? Just being led out? And if so, should they just be let back in for the next class session?