Anyway

Ali1234 stop the nonsense!

This fellow is very educated indeed. He is allame but his head is full of crap! He believes sun goes around earth. He possibly believes earth is flat. He believes in "Jen" not genes. He thinks we came from Adama and Eve. He certainly has no idea about Evolution and his astronomy is based on Ptolemy!!

Now, keep saying about positivism and epistemology!
YOu just don't get it!

To ramintork

I am not suggesting that he is saying anything extraordinary, he is simply questioning scientific positivism and rationalism as methods of understanding the world we live in. And he is using the religious concept of "miracles" to support his claims.

Now, one might agree or disagree with his philosophical view but my problem is with people mocking and ridiculing his claims just because he is a "mullah" and without even trying to understand what he is trying to say.

Just listen to the sarcastic tone of the commentator in the video clip and take a look at the comments made by people in this thread.

I don't buy the idea that Ayatollah Javadi Amoli is an uneducated person, or that whatever he says is aimed at "fooling" people!

Ali Jaan you indirectly proved my point

Yes, this argument can be applied to any system which can take away your ability to think and puts you in a position to take inhumane actions that a healthy civilized society with individuals who question and consider it a right to question would not let you do. This is true be it Fascism, Imperialism, ultra nationalism, communism, a cult etc.

It so happens that Mullas happen to actively practice this promotion of violence,  and use it against opposition groups, religious minorities specially the Bahais etc to torture, and destroy lives.

You could had argued that my argument is a generalization i.e. can not be applied to all Mullahs, but that would not be true because we are talking about a particular Mullah who has a key role in the current regime.

I would be interested to know what deep philosophy you find in this Man's speech and other than what I already noticed i.e. that science is limited (quoting Al Gazali and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle) what it is that has captured you?

Is it the having enough faith to make a tree walk towards you? Do you believe in that?

If you do it is your right but that has nothing to do with philosophy.

I have based my argument on a rational debate, I have strong feelings about it but it is not just personal!

P.S. What empty slogans? Unless you have shut your eyes, sympathise or lived in a bomb shelter for several decades you would know about the human rights records of this regime!

to ramintork

Well as I said before, you view this through the lenses of your personal interpretation of politics and history. You went from a philosophical concept to concluding that there are people in the audience who are willing to slit the throat of their fellow Iranians!!

But the trend of logic you used to prove this, can be applied for anyone who believes that he/she hold the exclusivity on the "Truth" and his/her way of viewing the world is better than anyone else. And this includes scientists and advocates of democracy.

Hitler was referring to "science" (the theory of evolution) to prove that Jews are an inferior race and George Bush is using the ideal of "democracy" to justify his invasion of other countries. But you can not accuse anyone who promotes democracy or talks about the theory of evolution of being a fascist or a warmonger. Every idea can be turned into an instrument of politics, this is not exclusive to Islamic philosophy.

Ali and if you missed it

If you missed it I stated that Mullas start with something true then bombard you with a train of fallacy. Science is limited in observation but it is still the best way of observing the universe. The path of faith like believing a tree can walk towards you leads to Mumbo Jumbo.

Here is how this Mulla mentality leads to torture and death:-

- You live in the dark and science does not reveal true nature, on mercy of God faith does ( as I stated this is from Al Gazali)

- You can be mislead so for guidance of this faith you must rely on a source e.g. Koran, Hadith but to understand these you must follow a source of wisdom "Marja Taglid" in a master, morid type relationship.

- Your master uses doctrine from early Islam and apply it to new age e.g. enemies of Islam can be captured their property confiscated, they can be killed or taken as slaves

- Your master is a defender of Islam so anyone with a contary position is an enemy of Islam, specially if most "Marja Taglids" are of the same mentality, or keep silent or on a rare occasion are put aside; beside it  is down to God's benevelonce that you find the correct master!

- Before you know it, you are either a slave or have slave mentality and anyone who challenges your master's position is put in prison, tortured or killed. As for yourself you think that murder, torture, lies, and theft can be justified if it is done in the name of faith and if you look you will find an example why this is justified!

Amongst the crowd listening to him there are a good few who would be more than willing to rip the throat of a fellow Iranian and think they will go to heaven!

To ramintork

What he is actually saying is one thing, your political/social interpretation of it, is another.

What he is saying is; scientific positivism is a very limited tool to understand the true nature of world's phenomenons. This is an argument that has been supported by many Eastern and Western philosophers and even scientists.

It is a purely philosophical concept, it has nothing to do with torture, murder, political executions.etc

Mehdi

Yes, it appears oversimplified. I did that so people like Amirkabear4u would be able to read it without causing himself injury.

The fact remains that all politics, even in Iran, starts at the grass roots level. In the U.S. those grass roots are in the farms of the midwest, and the small towns along the rust belt and bible belt.

In Iran, those grass roots of course are in the villages scattered everywhere.

The fear of continued "oppression" by the monarchy is what fueled the overthrow of the Shah in 1979. The fear Ruhollah Moussai instilled in the people if they were against an Islamic Republic is what motivated the voter turnout as well as the results.

Virtually all of the "laws" the IRI governs by are built upon a foundation of fear. The IRI instills fear among the people that Iran will be attacked.

The government is indeed a monster. More accuraely it's a parasite, as it feeds on that fear in order to survive. And you have a very valid point, it will take more than just a regime change. Unfortunately, it's just not that simple. That deep seated backward mentality is what makes it so easy for the IRI to operate as it does.

You are observing it more as the finished product, which is fine. I'm looking at the core elements that comprise this mess. And the biggest one is fear.

Because

It is this mentality that has meant Eastern civilization has not been able to make a simple nut or bolt without the aid of western technology.

It is this simple mentlity that justifies sending the innocent to torture chambers and death.

It is this simple mentality of waiting for miracles and saying economy is for a donkey that has meant with record price of oil the majority are living below a poverty line.

What is philosophical about bull like asking a tree to walk towards you and it does?

Which religious text did that come from?

He is making lies to decieve a very ready to be decieved ignorant group of people.

ramintork

This man is telling a simplified version of a very deep philosophy to an average audience, the language and examples he uses are suited for these people.

Many Western thinkers make the exact same claims as he does but in a different language. Anyone who has ever taken an advance course in methodology or philosophy of science, will notice that.

Why don't we put our arrogance, hatred, empty slogans and other emotional baggages, aside for a while and objectively listen to what others have to say?

No, what he says is Bull dear ali

It is one of the oratoy skills of Mullas to start with a statement which is true e.g. scientific research is limited ( not quoting why!) and then bombard you with fallacies.

If he started by something like the Heisenburg uncertainty principle and then jumped to fallacies like a tree was uprooted and walked towards the prophet, a fable that even contradicts Islamic text and only an uneducated feeble mind would believe then I would had said that for his argument he has at least looked to see what has happened to human research for the last 500 years.

I assure you he is no Bertrand Russell just another Mulla who has been repeating the same unprogressed Bull since the time of Al Gazali.

If the survival of humanity depended on his wisdom humanity would had been long extinct.

So to answer you, we did listen, we listened very hard for centuries but we don't tolerate such rubbish anymore!

To Ali1234, philosophical my A**!!

Read my note below. Don't be fooled by his jargons! That nonsense is 2000 years old and has been refuted long long time ago.

Very philosophical!!!!!!!!

For every idiot that leads(!) there is thousand
idiots who follow. Don't be one!

What he says is very

What he says is very philosophical. Why don't you people try to understand his view instead of always mocking?!!!

Reform???

Pleaseeeeeee.....as long as velyat faghih exists and Shiism is the pillar of this constitution we won't have any reform...Any laws which is against their Shia ideology will be rejected......

akhoundeh ahamagh

THE PROBLEM IS, THESE IDIOTS ARE SITTING AT THE TOPS OF THE COUNTRY'S MOST IMPORTANT POSITIONS, AND PEOPLE THINKS THEY ARE FUNNY.
BUT THE TRUTH IS, THESE AKHOUNDS ARE NOT FUNNY AT ALL.
THEY ARE EVIL, MUST BE MAKE THEM ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR CRIMES AGAINST PEOPLE.

Nonsense, pure nonsense

Nonsense, pure nonsense disguised as deep thoughts, insight and divine wisdom!
Nothing can get as convoluted and self deceiving as a human mind.

That happens if thousands of years after Aristotle and Ptolemey's death and refutation of their ideas you stick to them!!
This 'allaame' (meaning very knowledgable in Arabic) knows much less than a freshman in college about trivial scientific facts
some known to humans for few centuries. If Newton were to be reserected having missed last few hundred years of scientific progress,
he would still know more about nature and cosmos than this 'allame'!! He is not alone. Every priest and Rabbai shares this ignorance to different degrees!

curly

About your comment. I lived in the US and studied Dentistry, but never finished for the family reasons, I had to return back to Iran. I live in Tehran and use filter shekan.
Now you want to revolt? I wish you would but what I have seen from many of you, it's not in you!
I said what I had to say. You are in a dream land also. But OK, khoshi zadeh zireh del et and say we will revolt. Who? you?
I guess no one will hear us here. We are doomed.

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht1C1WGQW_A

It is tragic!

This guy would be riding a donkey rather than board a bullet proof limo provided by the Western technology; the very thing his mentality fights and destroys.

It is tragic because he has a large audience of idiots who take in his bull and drive Iran to destruction.

It is our shame, our embaressment that we have such people in charge of our nation, our biggest tragedy.

Sia khoshtip - not many people will listen

A lot of people outside as you say have no concept of the real Iran. Their solutions have nothing to do with real situation in Iran. And the fact that they have failed over and over for all these years means nothing to them. Most of them have invested too much time and effort into this and they don't want to review their work because it would be too embarrassing. They prefer to hold on to the falsehood they believ in and die that way with "pride!" A lot of them want violence only - regime is just a good excuse. Some want power, they are not interested in improving things. Some want revenge, again, no interest in improving things. It's not a very pretty picture out here. You people are on your own, I am afraid!

merce Sia khoshtip

harefe doroosti zadi. enha kharej neshastand va az zendegishoon lezat mibarand, va harfhye ziyadi mizannd ke faghat baraye khodeshoon khobe va zendegih gharbishoon.

amirkabear4u and Kourosh M.

Thanks. essentially that's what I am thinking - that Iranians must realize that they have not discovered all the forces and factors that caused the so-called revolution and still do not see the hidden hands that rocks the cradle, as the saying goes. And that is the main reason that we can't unite and we can't have fast progress. because we are shooting at the wrong targets! Mullahs by themselves are nothing. It would be easier than drinking water to take power away from them. But something is holding them there. And I don't think any opposition has correctly identified what or who. It should also be taken into account that after many centuries of oppression and difficult history, now we have a very uneducated and superstitious people (I am talking about the masses and not a few Tehranis and educated people here and there). But if we correctly identify the problems and factors then we could take proper steps that would be actually successful, instead of having false hopes that goes nowhere.

Mehdi, I agree with you

I agree with you Mehdi on the point that Kaveh Nouraee does not make sense. His only point is that there were a lot of freedoms during the dictatorship of the Pahlavis. It is well documented by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch that the Pahlavi dynasty was one big human rights violation. Even American journalists agree that there are the IRI is more democratic than the Pahlavi dynasty. As we all recall, in his final days M.R. Pahlavi created the "Rastakheez" party and gave iranian citizens the right to join the party or go into exile. It was a one party dictatorship. It can be easily seen why the revolution occured. Microsoft encarta online, Wikipedia, all western encyclopedias document the deficiencies of the Pahlavi dynasty. It is time for Kaveh Nouraee to wake up, no one is listening to his jibberish anymore. As the saying goes in farsi Kaveh Nouraee should come to the conclusion that if he believes that a the Pahlavis were so great then, "san-naar bedeh aash, be hamaan kheyaal baash" (happy trip to laa-laa land).

Keyvan Talebi

What are you rambling about? I supported IRI for 30 years? I left Iran twenty some years ago and have never gone back. No, I never fought that regime but I also didn't support them. Interestingly enough, my main reason for leaving Iran was not the regime or social conditions, it was my FAMILY! I had a very strict religious family and it was suffocating me. Eventually I left, mainly because of that. I was more afraid of my parents than the government! In fact, once I was caught because I had gone out with a girl and they asked me if I wanted to call my family and I told them no! I wasn't worried much about being caught by Baseej but I definitely did not want my father to find out! I hope this clarifies things for you a bit.

Kaveh Nouraee

What you are saying doesn't really make sense if you think about it. You are oversimplifying now. If it is that easy, then all we need is an opposition group that instills MORE fear in people and takes over easily! What you are saying, in essence, is a confession that the problem is not really a monster government, or at least it is not totally that. The problem is that we have people who have had a long history of superstitions and fears. In fact it is so much so that if we were able to take out the current regime and bring in a super fantastic government, people would fight it hard and get rid of it - just like they did with Shah's. And that's my point here - it isn't about a mullah or even a government and it will not go away by a "regime change." More work is needed. In fact fighting the regime makes it harder for people to come out of their fears and superstitions. Because every time there is attack on that government, it proves to the people that there are in fact people and forces out there that are trying to take out their dear superstitious ideas. This is very similar to Israel where people there think that if Israel was a democracy for all and not just for the Jewish people, that their dear superstitions would be hurt. It's the deep seated backward mentality that is not going away easily.

Agh "Sia khoshtip" maro sia mekoni?

Come on , I will come to Iran , if you buy your ticket and come with me!
You are not definitly in Iran, I can tell by your English, also this site is closed for Iran!!!
May be not for you!
We want change of government , tell that to your dad!!!

Re: The mystery is how could these people rule?

During my K-12 education, every year we had to take a course in history, to cover the 2500 years of Iranian history. I remember, there were a couple of pictures showing the refuge of prominant mullahs in British and Russian Embassies, in protest against the central government of Iran.

As a child, I was puzzled and thought, whatever the reason, why did mullahs refuge in the foreign embassies, rather than in musks or parliment? But we were not allowed to ask such questions, only to read, memorise, and pass the exam!

After the revolution, when mullahs came to power, that puzzle was solved for me, and knew that mullahs have always been agents of foreign interests in Iran, during our long history!

To Mehdi

Your question,

"Is it possible some other factor is holding them in place?"

could be branded as one million $ question. You mentioned an issue some idiots like K N will not understand and will not be able to answer.

Yes there is another factor. Very briefly can call it international politicians who like to control everything. It is them who keep mullahs in power.

Mollaye Dolla

I have read that the late Shah made a mistake a hisrotical mistake that is, and that he
changed the calander to shahanshai! and this action enboldened some clerics at the time to protest, Mollas such as the late Khomaini!...now when I think about it, I agree that changing a calander needs alot of work and research and should have been done with alot more care( or maybe not at all).... today Mollas are making a simillar type of mistake, calling the people of Iran STUPID is going to back fire and if thsi is implimented would be one of those mistakes that may enbolden Iranians of all walks of life UNITED against the Mollas!...... it is remain to be seen. But the universities topic has always been a HOT one so has been the response to such protests!

Let me tell you a dard e del

Someone here tell me what part of the government office is this guy running. Shoma aslan Irano nemishnasid,
Iran is a crazy country, but give it a bit more credit. We have everything that you have over there, just that we are not as individualistic and our economy is going no where. We are hopeless, but this guys speech is not our problem. This is our fun, listening to these guys and laugh about it.
If you really cared for Iran, you would at least know a bit where we are. My problem with many of you is that you are so American and so away from our realities that think for example that these guys are running our country. I have a news for you, they don't. Iranian system is corrupt, but very capitalistic and very similar to many third world countries. We have a lot of freedom, and don't have a lot of other freedoms. That's not what makes a young man like myself upset. We are not upset about the things that you care about. We are upset because we don't have hope for our future. We are sad because we don't have happy activities. But that's not government alone. Our society has not changed from my family's perspective sine the Shah.
We Don't want anyone to bully us. We want to be Iranians and rule our own country. You want us to beg to the west, we don't want that. But we don't want this system either. Yes we are confused and depressed.
We are sad because we have a huge Iranians living outside, rich and educated, who are living Dayee Jaan Napelon thoughts. Our government knows that and laughs at you all and enjoys your ignorance.
In Iran, all we want is not a regime change, a reform. A social reform. To let us be. To allow us to laugh and party. To allow us to dress how we like. But stand on our ground, to make us strong. To have nuclear energy and technological advances that we are witnessing.
So somethings are good, and many other things are horrible. We don't want the good to go away, we just want to bad to change. We want change but not your kind,
you want us to be like the way we were or the way that you see. We want us to be the way WE WANT. What we want is change, but not your kind of change.
That's why we are not going anywhere.
Come to Iran. Investigate our country. It's good for you and it's good for us. Many of you have been out too long that talk like a foreigner who just knows our language, but it just ends there. Nothing else in common. It makes me even more depressed when I hear those who want regime change.
I want change too, but many of you are just totally away from the realities of Iran and think in another galaxy. You need to come and spend long times in your country, then go back and decide what's best FOR US!
I am sick of your arguments. Solution? here it is:
-Use your influence (if you have any) to push for social change. THAT'S IT. We live in Iran, and that's what we want. The rest is up to us. You don't know us, but if you care for Iran then try to make Iran more secure and better economy. We are the people who will take charge if we can breath. You are not helping. Either are with the Iranian government, or with the American. Be with the Iranian people. vasalam

The same BBC

The very same BBC was responsible to bring Khomeini to Iran and now has these smart-ass-radio-shows get broadcast to distant itself (BBC) from the fact that THEY brought Islamic Republic to Iran.

What I mean is this, do not try to destroy your religion, that is close to impossible. The easiest solution is to close the British embassy and kick every single one of them out of our motherland.

Believe me, the day the British are forced out of Iran that would be the start of our return to reconstruction. Remember in 1950 when we kicked the British out of Iran, we came close to taking power in our hands, but they conspired and their hired whores in Iran colluded with them.

Islam is not your enemy, your ignorance is your number one enemy. KNOW your enemy today. An educated nation that has its destiny in its hands will not be afraid of an archaic religion. Kick the British out today.

Can't decide...

Not sure who is more idiot and uneducated in this clip...The mullah with his amameh or those whom are listening to his nonsence....It's shame that the country is run by these ......