Zohreh & Manoochehr (1)

12 part documentary about sex in Iran

Zohreh & Manoochehr (1)
by Party Girl
23-Jun-2008
 

French documentary (2003). It is fascinating. Each segment can stand on its own.

PARTS:  [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]


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A Virgin in the West Over Age 40...

by Older American Virgin (not verified) on

As a liberal-minded, Christian virgin of the USA, I don't think that your sweeping generalizations of men who want to marry virgins are any more fair than the one that claims all American girls are "easy". After all, most of the world doesn't believe my kind exists. Yes, in my country the fact that I am attractive, thin, educated and tall are seen as desirable traits, whereas my virginity is a major hindrance to my ever getting married. Sorry to disappoint you, but I am glad to see that many men in this world still value virginity.


Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez

Niloufar Parsi

by Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez on

Are you familiar with the term "machista" mentality?

Azad99 sounds a lot like it.

 Solh va doosti

Natalia


Niloufar Parsi

I am trying to escape the box

by Niloufar Parsi on

But you won't let me Azad99.

Peace!


Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez

In other words........he is not a virgin

by Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez on

Yet, has diluted himself to believe that a woman would not have the same expectations from her husband to be.

Because according to him:

".....different expectations from each other. Men and women have different needs and expect their partners to act in different ways. "Equality" and "justice" do not mean to have the exact same expectation from one another!"

 

 


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To Niloufar Parsi

by Azad99 (not verified) on

Two people might have different expectations from each other. Men and women have different needs and expect their partners to act in different ways. "Equality" and "justice" do not mean to have the exact same expectation from one another!

To me, the idea that my wife has been with other men bothers me, and I do expect my wife to be a virgin before marriage. She might not have the same feelings and expectations from me. We are NOT in a contest about who has had more sex before marriage!!

Again, men and women have different psychological, emotional, physical needs and expectations. If a man wants his wife to shave her legs and he doesn't do it himself, it doesn't mean that he is a hypocrite!! Let's think outside of the box a little bit...


Niloufar Parsi

Hypocrisy

by Niloufar Parsi on

Azad99,

Reading your replies again it seems to me that you are probably not a virgin. And you asked me whether I would agree that you have the right to choose a virgin girl as a wife.

The answer is simple: unless you are a virgin yourself, then ABSOLUTELY NOT! You have no such right from my point of view. Neither do all those millions of Iranian men you refer to, unless they too are virgins. Otherwise, you are all hypocrites.

Come on Azad! Admit it: you are a hypocrite and you are quite proud of it too.

Peace!


Niloufar Parsi

Natalia

by Niloufar Parsi on

You are right. I was so focussed on the subject that I missed the absurdity of what Azad99 was saying! He is actually blaming the 'mess' in Iran on women sleeping around! What a moronic statement. 

Next, he will be claiming that Khomeini, Khamenei, Rafsanjani and Ahmadinejad are all women who 'sleep around', as are all the other mullahs and the Sepahis!

Perhaps all the virgin girls in Iran today are really 'virtuous' men like Azad99? lol!

Peace!


Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez

What?! Just wait one minute!!!

by Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez on

Wait a minute! Women are fighting for Iran and being imprisoned, tortured and executed. They are not only fighting for their rights but for "Human" rights.

The mess in Iran was not caused by the women. So, go ahead and have your virgin but stop blaming the Iranian women for the troubles of Iran.

Azad99: "If Iranian women would defend their homeland with a fraction of the same passion they are defending their "right" to sleep around with different men, the country would not be in the mess it is today!!"

I don't think so Mr. Unbelievable!!!!!

Niloufar Parsi,

I don't think that Azad99's being single for lack of sufficient virgins is the case. Just by reading his comments, I think it is due to lack of logic.


Niloufar Parsi

Azad99

by Niloufar Parsi on

The question is whether you practice what you preach. And if you do, good for you and those women who would abide by the same. You know full well that 99% of Iranian men don't. They live lke whores and preach virginity to women! So they have no right to preach it. It is not a personal issue. Just a matter of justice. A matter of free choice over one's own body.

Women are fighting back in Iran, and refusing to remain virgins is a part of it. It's just that you cannot see it that way because of a romantic notion that is in a way fundamentally in agreement with the regime's repressive approach. You would reduce it to 'sleeping around', but just take a quick look at
how many verses in the Quran are dedicated to this and other CONTROL issues. Again, nothing personal is meant. It's just a view point that I also reserve the right to hold :) 

Peace!


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To Niloufar Parsi

by Azad99 (not verified) on

Wow, so just because I value monogamy and chastity I am a tyrannical "woman abuser" living in strip clubs and sleeping around with whores and lusting after every woman that walks on the street and trying to project my lustful character onto women so that I can punish them for it!! :)))

If Iranian women would defend their homeland with a fraction of the same passion they are defending their "right" to sleep around with different men, the country would not be in the mess it is today!!

And again, I am not "forcing" any woman to remain a virgin before marriage nor am I "demanding" anything from them, I am just reserving myself the right (as many other men do) to not marry those women who believe that they can just sleep with anyone they want before marriage. Do I have the right to make this personal choice or not?


Niloufar Parsi

Azad99

by Niloufar Parsi on

If you have any real commitment to such 'values' as chastity, monogomy, love, respect etc, then you sort yourself and those millions of hypocrites (AKA men) first. Stop sleeping around, stop abusing women, stop whoring and living in strip joints, stop watching and paying for porn, stop being a slut, stop lusting after every woman that you see on the street, and then, and only then, women may consider listening to your kind of puritanical nonsense.

But that is NOT what you are about, is it? You don't actually believe in monogomy, but you just demand it from women. You and all those men looking for virgins to marry (to own rather) are tyrants.

What you are really about is this: to project your own lustful character onto women and then to blame them for your 'sins' and to punish them instead of yourself. Demanding virginity from women is NO different from forcing them to wear the hijab and keeping them locked behind closed doors like prisoners. You are trying to protect you from yourself.

Well, tough luck. As you can see, it ain't gonna work. Why don't you move to Afghanistan? But rest assured, it ain't working there either. Who knows what is going on underneath all those covers?!

Peace!


Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez

Feminism....Liberation?! Live and let live...............

by Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez on

 


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To Niloufar Parsi

by Azad99 (not verified) on

Of course, sex is the natural right for every human and no one has the right to deprive another from that fundamental right, but with every right also comes responsibility. And sure sex is a great source of pleasure but sex is not JUST pleasure and there are a lot of psychological, emotional, physical and social consequences to sexual activity. So, it is not as simple as you say, and we can not just eliminate the existing rules and regulations without trying to understand why the were set in the first place, based on the idea that sex is a right and is pleasurable.

I do not agree with the idea that all rules and regulations concerning virginity were set by men in order to dominate and control women! This is a very simplistic and false interpretation of history. Human societies set their own rules based on their needs, life-styles and social environment. And in most cases and in almost all civilizations, chastity and self-restrain in sex, have been greatly honored and promoted, especially as female virtues. The notions of "purity", "virginity", "chastity" have always been praised in various works of literatures, scriptures, plays, mythologies...etc in different cultures of the planet. Was Shakespeare a chauvinist man wanting to dominate and oppress women?!!! I don't think so.

The only time in history when virginity and chastity started to lose their value in the society, was after the so-called "sexual revolution" in the 1970's in some Western cultures, when "feminists" started to promote sexual promiscuity for women as a way of "empowering" them. They rode on the political movements of that time (against the Vietnam war, racism against black people...etc) and started to use terms such as sexual "liberation" and "revolution" and comparing women to "slaves" and "oppressed minorities" in order to give momentum to their own agenda.

But what was the result of this so-called "sexual liberation" in the West?!! 60-65% divorce rate, broken families, single parenthood, screwed up children, depression, AIDS and other STDs in epidemic proportions, sexual promiscuity, open marriages, sex becoming a tool of marketing and consumerism rather than a mean of deep intimacy between two people...etc

So, whatever they sold us as "liberation" made the whole society sicker and more damaged than it was before.
Emphasizing of the "pleasurable" aspect of sex and ignoring all the complexities that comes with it, is what has led the Western countries into this mess.

Again, I am against any kind of mandatory behavior imposed by the government or any other authority on people, but I believe that we should promote virginity and a return to our own values. Nowadays, millions of Iranian men are just refusing to marry non-virgins and this is creating a lot of serious problems in Iran and terrible "solutions" (namely the huge rate of hymen restoration surgeries, dishonesty, frustration...etc) but I think this trend will continue and get worse if Iranian women do not start to act according to our values and stop blindly repeating and acting according to the Western liberal feminist non-sense.


Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez

Doing it all themselves!!!!!

by Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez on


Niloufar Parsi

Natalia

by Niloufar Parsi on

4. Virginity is slavery! lol!

Peace!


Niloufar Parsi

Azad99

by Niloufar Parsi on

Thanks for the response. This is an emotive issue, and perhaps I was a little too emotional in my last post!

However, the issue is also a clear one: there are those who describe virginity as a 'value'. I fail to see how the state of sex deprevation can be a value. It is better described as just that: deprevation or even a disaster really. Sex is one of the greatest joys there is. Why are we being asked to deny ourselves? For what reason other than men's obssessions?

I am not prmoting it for young teenagers, but anyone who denies sex to human beings right up to the age of marriage (around 30) is just cruel and has something against pleasure in life! It is also a way of forcing women into marriage if they are interested in having sex!

As for north America, I think the question of virginity is long dead. Its reason is social enlightenment and women's emancipation. Hence the relatively quick change.

Latin America: virginity a value? hardly! Ever been to their carnivals? And in predominantly Catholic societies too. 

Africa: only the north 'values' virginity, and that too is directly linked to Islam and control of women's bodies.

Europe & former Soviet states: Virginity? I don't think so. There is a joke in Norway about Sweden: why wasn't Jesus born in Sweden? Because they couldn't find a virgin there! And why wasn't Jesus born in Norway? Couldn't find three wise men to the east!

South Asia:  Still conservative in rural areas, but you should see how they party in the cities. Why the rural/urban dichotomy on virginity? Feudalism versus capitalism would be a good starting point.

And we are not going to hold up Afghanistan and Pakistan as role models now, are we?

East and South East Asia: old values about virginity largely ignored today. From Mongolia to China, and Thailand to Japan the picture has changed drastically. Japanese women have stopped getting married in large numbers because of gender repression. Perhaps Indonesia is still largely occupied with it in rural areas, but then again, probably not. I have been there.

Australia: I don't think so.

In terms of rules and values, as I mentioned earlier, they are constructs with purposes. They are created by people and become defunct in time, and often out of economic necessity.

Marriage itself only became a 'norm' or a 'value' with the age of agriculture. Prior to this human beings had little notion of a nuclear family, female chastity (never a male one demanded in reality) and such morality. Why? Because for the first time men started to own more personal possessions that women through agriculture. That was the end of matriarchy and the rise of patriarchy that also relied on religion for the purpose.

Almost every single major religion I know of concentrates on control over women's bodies. You would say it has to do with human nature, but I suggest it is linked to the idea of inheritance: Men had no way of being sure if the child was theirs, so they brainwashed women into virginity and monogomy with rules, values and religion while they roamed around themselves and slept with anything that moved, and then boasted to their friends about it too. Iranian men are particularly good at this.

So why is this falling apart today? Because women are working and earning for themselves. Because also they see emancipated women all over the world through the media. On top of this, the question of paternity and inheritance issues are easily taken care of by modern medicine so the child's father can easily be known regardless of marriage etc. 

Is this all a good thing? In some ways yes sure, but in others no. We are in a state of transition in gender relations. Many single-parent families and divorces all over the place with inadequate support for children. Plenty of judgement, anger, rejection and isolation. And we have no moral compus to hang on to. It causes confusion and social breakdown. But an answer will emerge, as it has to. In particular, men will have to learn to be fair.

Peace!


Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez

So according to the statements made on this thread

by Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez on

  1. Women have the right to decide whether they remain a virgin or not.
  2.  Those who will only marry a virgin have the right to do so.
  3. How many men or women (depending on gender and preference) is a personal matter between a couple when deciding what is acceptable for them before marriage.

Nilfour Parsi, did I forget any or did you want to add any to the list? :o) I'm certain that I have left some out.

Solh va Doosti

Natalia

Disclaimer: The author of this comment does not at this time support any specific poltical group or ideology.


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Double standard is wrong, but virginity is right

by Iranian Muslim (not verified) on

Much of the liberal angst about virginity is rightly aimed at the double standard. Women are to remain virgins while men are free to sow their wild oats. But nobody here (at least I'm not) is defending female virginity while claiming that men should do whatever they want. This is a stupid assumption designed to confound a value (virginity) with a societal problem (double standard). The double standard is wrong, but virginity is not. Having spent a great deal of time speaking to intelligent liberals about subjects like this, I am genuinely disappointed with the quality of the liberal responses on this thread.


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To Niloufar Parsi

by Azad99 (not verified) on

First of all; it is not true that only a few cultures across the world valued virginity and the rest of the world did not care about it! A few decades ago, even in the U.S, virginity was a big deal. In fact it was such a big deal that only women who had remained virgins until their marriage would wear a "white" wedding dress. Same is true for Europe, and in fact abstinence before marriage has always been very much valued and promoted in all countries of Christian background.

Now you might say that all religions and codes of moral are social constructs, but that doesn't mean that the rules and values that they promoted had popped out of thin air and had absolutely no root in the human nature.

Secondly, you said that virginity is as unnatural as it gets as soon as sexual hormones start pouring into the body! In that case young 13 years old girls should be encouraged to have sex and lose their virginity!! But why is it that the society does not promote this? Or do you believe that the society is "repressing" them or is manipulating and oppressing them in order to control them?!!

Every society has some basic rules and values that are ultimately rooted in human nature and following rules does not necessarily mean to be oppressed or "repressed"! Virginity before marriage is a value that does exist in our culture (and many others) and expecting women to follow it, is not in any way a form of oppressing. Of course, FORCING people to act in a certain way despite their own will is not good thing and I do not advocate it at all, but I do reserve myself the right to chose not to marry those who do not follow the rules and have no respect for our values.


Niloufar Parsi

Anonymous2010 khan

by Niloufar Parsi on

Can you please get your head out of girls' virginity?!

Men have absolutely no right to preach virginity to women and those who do are utter hypocrites. For every single Iranian man who ever gets married as a virgin there are about 1000 Iranian women. And to that you can add another 1000 women who were basically forced to remain virgins because of social pressures against their own wishes. The rest have managed to break the shackles of oppression by taking control of their own bodies.

The whole situation is so biased and oppressive that it is incredible to hear you claim that you are talking on the basis of any value. And you call it a 'human value' too!

No my friend, the 'value' that you talking about is based on utter lies that negate human nature and are designed SPECIFICALLY to keep women under the control of men. And wherever you see greater economic freedom for women you also see greater sexual freedom. Why do you think that is?

Being a virgin is as unnatural as it gets from the moment our hormones are released into our bodies. In this day and age when people have to wait till their late 20s or later to get married, your specific point of view is not only outmoded and regressive, it is also a blatant attack on the basic human rights of people, and especially women because you know full well that the 'virginity' pressure only really applies to women in the Middle East and South Asia and virtually nowhere else on earth btw. So what on earth makes your fanciful ideology 'natural' to humanity at all?! Lets get serious please and stop hiding behind a fantasy view of human nature.

Marriage is a social construct that serves a specific purpose. It changes with changing social and economic realities through the ages. Sex is an inherent part of our genes and instincts, a source of unparalleled joy and a basic ingredient of happiness to mind and body alike. We were not meant to live without it, and those who do suffer the consequences. They are in a word: repressed.

Peace!


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news-to-me

by Anonymous2010 (not verified) on

What you're saying is that girls can lie about their virginity and therefore we should forget about it!

Well, people can lie about many other things. People can lie about their education, their criminal record, their wealth, their name...etc. Should we forget about all that too because we can be deceived? How about not asking any questions at all, since we might get duped at some point?!

And what's with you people and your obsession with the hymen. Why do you keep associating virginity with the hymen?! Who cares about the hymen?! Who relies on the hymen?!

When men say they want to marry a virgin girl, they mean that they want to marry someone who has GENUINELY not have any sexual relations with another man. Now, can they be deceived? Sure. Can they be fooled? Sure!

But this doesn't mean you should give up your values. There are STILL girls who genuinely believe in some values.


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what's this about?

by news-to-me (not verified) on

Do you people always count sexual partners? what's with all the numbers being thrown back and forth? how many sexual partners do you think those girls with sewn hymens have had before they marry people like you?

if you think that the prostitute in the movie clip who is still a virgin doesn't show how pathetic you are then good luck marrying those virgins!

you deserve that ;-)


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Anonymou2010

by It'sTime (not verified) on

For someone you wants a virginal bride, you sure spend a lot of time thinking of sexual scenarios.

You think too much about other men's wives and what they may or may not be doing.

"Thou shall not covet, thy neighbors wife."

I think that it is time for you to find your bride and actually live a more fulfilled life.


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To Anonymous1326

by Azad99 (not verified) on

Two people might have different expectations from each other before getting married. I do expect my future wife to be a virgin before marriage but she might not have the same expectation from me. And if she does, it is her right and I will respect her decision. Or she might have some expectations from me that I do not have from me. So, this whole idea of blind "equality" is just an empty slogan with no practical and realistic foundation.

Plus, if the limit that man should set for his wife is that same that he she set for himself, then what if you meet a girl that you like very much, but who has had way more sexual experiences than you had, including sexual practices that you would never think of doing yourself?! Will you still be with her or marry her? If not, then what is that bothering you about the situation?! Well, it is the same feeling that's bothering those who want to marry virgins in the first place.


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Interesting and amusing

by Anonymous1326 (not verified) on

Thank you very much for interesting response. That was what I expected to hear from you and as you stated that it is your judgement and nothing else. and that is what's coming from your mentality towards every and each issue. it is you who think like that and you can not present yourself as representative of maintream view of male population in society on the subject. you say that you can tell from what they talk and they think which is very clever but how do you know how someone thinks exactly? Do you have the same kind of ability with females in your own family? well I think I heard enough from you and regarding your new question, don't forget that was my question from you which you failed to provide any response other than repeating same bigoted words. That's fine anyways. I promise that I am not angry at you and wish you a happy life and thank you for interesting conversation. have a good night.


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Anyonymous1326

by Anonymous2010 (not verified) on

I have another hypothetical question:

What if your wife has slept with more men than you with woman prior to marriage?

Let's say you have slept with 5 girls, and she has slept with 8 men....Why would that cause you a problem if the number REALLY doesn't matter for you?


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Anonymous1326

by Anonymous2010 (not verified) on

So, if you have slept with 8 women, you're okay if your wife has slept with 8 men too? Right?

This "logic" of yours is really absurd. Men and woman are essentially very different. Equality doesn't mean that the same yardsticks must apply to both genders. I have very well the right to have different judgments about a man and a woman who've slept with 10 people. 10 sexual partners would say a lot more about a woman than about a man.

You want to act okay with the idea that your wife has slept with 8-10 men, but I think the angry tone of your post suggests otherwise. Even me mentioning it is getting you mad, let alone KNOWING that your wife has been with 3-4-5-8 other men.

As for your question, I don't have ANY way of checking if she's been with someone or not. All I can do is to go with someone whom I trust is telling the truth. You can judge people by the way they act, talk, think...I will not rely on any physical evidence or anything said to me. I will go by my own instinct and lucid judgment. It's not that complicated.

People can lie you about many things before marriage: Their criminal record, their family history, their wealth, their education....And virginity is another one of those. You just have to know the person well enough to trust she's telling the truth.


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Anonymous2010

by Anonymous1326 (not verified) on

The number of men your wife to be should be allowed to have slept with prior to marrying you is no less than the number of women which yourself have slept with in the similar situation. fair enough? now tell us how do want to check the number in a certain way even if you marry a virgin?


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Your mentality is at work again

by Anonymous1326 (not verified) on

I give you the most straight forward answer to your question that you could ever think of. The number is equal to the number of your own fucking around. how about that? now tell us how do you find out if your virgin has ever been with other men or not?


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Anyonymous1326

by Anonymous2010 (not verified) on

Why don't you get it? Who cares about the "physical" virginity? Who cares about the hymen?

See, people like you always try to reduce the issue to its physical aspect and always evoke the fact that he absence of hymen wouldn't prove anything. But who cares about the hymen? What matters is NOT the physical evidence. What REALLY matters is that the girl who want to marry has GENUINELY not slept with anyone.

I don't want my wife to have been fucked by another man! KIYO BAYAD BEBINIM BABA! This is a very natural simple expectation. I don't know why you and people like you INSIST on portraying it as an outrageous demand.

AND PLEASE answer my question. This is the third time I'm asking it and no one dares to answer:

How many men, in your standards, is it okay for your wife to have slept with before meeting you? 1?5?10?15?20? How many?

Where do you set the limit? And if you have a limit, on what ground to you have that limit?

Please answer this question.


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