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//iranian.com/main/blog/hovakhshatare/initiating-mass-distribution-article-2-iranian-secular-constitution

Abarmard & David

I agree with both of you. We should stick to secular. We are not Farhangistan.  We should be focused on the content of the document and avoid misunderstandings.

Abarmard

Great Points. Thank you

The word (Faradini) although a good word but does not officially mean secular and has other philosophical meaning.

We need to be clear in our intent and can not introduce new words or undefined concepts or they can later be abused .

If we want a secular government we need to be open and honest about it instead of trying to repackage and sell it and if it may not be understood as is or be misunderstood that only means we have a harder job ahead of us.

At the end of the day people appreciate honesty and openness instead of trying to present one thing and sell another.

This is same reason that I oppose dropping the word republic when this is the constitution of republic.

Our culture doesn't value words with worldly meaningE

We are still not socially developed enough to have a word that is based on "Worldly, donyavi". Like Mardomsalary e donyavi, or secular democracy. In our historical and philosophical growth, Iranians have skipped many eras that had helped Western nations develop socially, from Romanticism to realism, Dadaism, etc. and that's something that holds a large portion of our population back.

I find that interesting because it shows that our culture has not yet valued something that is not religiously based, or out of this world.

Benross has a good possible word, and if you noticed it based on religion then beyond, that means the base must stand on a religious ground to be above it! and be understood. If one says the exact translation: something in a line of donyavi, it sounds bad in Iranian culture. Why? we don't value things from this world as pure or honest. We got a problem with that.

I agree that for now secular is a proper usage until

1-Our society grasp the idea of secularism based on our cultural background and eventual growth.

2- linguists create an acceptable and proper word that sits well with social taste buds.

Thanks Mr. ET for the informative blog.

Help needed

More Persian translations have come my way (Articles 1,2,3,4,5). They are raw and need improvement. You can find them here:

//iransecular.org/aboutus.aspx

It would be very much appreciated if you send the improved versions (no change in content and intent) but grammatical and typos etc...

(same applies to the articles posted above)

you can post them here or email to info@iransecular.org

Time is of the essance. Thank you again.

replies

Azadeh: Thank you. I checked and it seems like Orfi is being used in place for secular in Persian documents. I will add  عرفی to the Persian draft while keeping secular in paranthesis just to claify its intent, since it is politically better defined .

benross: That is a very good word but I do not think it does exactly mean secular

MM & Veiled Prophet: Thank you! Since the funds were collected for translation, I will allocate your donations to translator and await for other 2 donors instructions. As for website cost, for now I covered it.

Tabar: I will include more reference to multiculturalism in the fundamental sections of the draft. Thank you!

As for secxual preference, I think considering that it does not reflect the majority and only minority, the reference to it in the very first article is sufficient as there are many other minority matters that are not spelled out for each. Constitution sets a framework and laws are drawn based on that and the reference very clearly states the non-discrimination and equality of all regardless of sexual preference. 

سکولار

فرادینی؟

Two points:

We have other Western words in Persian: Television; Mashine; Mercy and so on. Why not just say "Secular"? At least for now.

As for the money I think you should keep it and maintain the web site or give it to the translator or just keep it. I have no doubt some need for it will come up.

David - I leave it up to you

I will leave it up to you to send the money to the translator or keep it to maintain the websites.  Thanks.

Azadeh - I do not know enough to argue, but there you go!

merci.

Translations

MM:

 Democracy and secularism are not the same thing.

Democracy = Mardom saalaari

Secularism = Orfi, Orfgaraaii (non-religious)

*

David ET & Abarmard: 

Secular government = Hokumate orfi

مردم سالاری = سکولاریزم ?

I have seen these two words used  in similar context.  Does anyone have a better word for mardom-saalaari?

David

What I meant is you have a heading for "Gender Equality" under Article 2, and also a paragraph about "Gender Equality" in the main Heading, of which both I think should be named "Gender and Sexual Equality" because they fit together and are related things. I understand it's in the constitution already, I'm just asking for it to be renamed, it's not a big deal.

As for my second point, this is in regards to languages and cultures of Iran. We've discussed this in detail before too but I think acknowledging the fact that we're not a nation state is good. This is one of the most important factors of Iran and by not mentioning the multiculturalism of Iran yet acknowledging "environmental protection" you're going to lose a lot of supporters. In the constitution you have already written about how language is allowed in media and schools but the peoples of Iran deserve a title/heading under the "Heading" and "Article 2" section as the multiculturalism and diverse ethnicities of our empire is of /huuuuuuge/ importance if you want to gain support of 50% of Iran's population; otherwise the ethnic minorities will not support this. They're not going to like how some things like environmentalism are headings and also in article 2 yet their rights or at least acknowledging the fact that we're not a nation state are not there too.

Again both sexual orientation and ethnicity/language are mentioned in the constitution and are protected [thank you for that] but sexual orientation deserves to be with Gender Equality and Multiculturalism or something to that effect deserve their own titles and headings under the "Heading" and "Article 2" sections.

Abarmard

There are no Persian words for secularism (laïque in French) that I know of and that by itself explains how much education our nation still needs on this.

Here are some wikipedia definitions in Persian:

حکومت از هیچ دینی پبروی نمی‌کند و دین در جامعه مدنی آزادانه به فعالیت می‌پردازد اما دین در سیاست هیچ‌گونه قدرتی اعمال نمی‌کند

سکولاریسم

لائیسیته

Would be nice to come up with a Persian word

A persian word that is proper to explain a secular government.

Not important, just a thought. 

would this be accurate?

ما مردم ایران به حقوق بشر احترام می­گذاریم و دولت مردمی ما تضمین کننده و مدافع حقوق بشر همه ایرانیان بوده و به هیچ بهانه­ حقوق بشر ما را زیر سوال نمی­برد. دولت مردمی ما با اصول بنیادین بیانیه جهانی حقوق بشر، کنوانسیون بین­المللی حقوق مدنی - سیاسی و کنوانسیون حقوق کودک مطابق خواهد بود

We the people of Iran respect human rights and our government of the people shall assure that the human rights of all Iranians are respected and defended and it shall not violate our human rights under any pretext. Our government of the people shall comply with the basic principals of Universal Declaration of Human Rights, International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the Convention on the Rights of the Child. 

...

.

The Pahlavis, all mullahs, and all public figures associated with the Green Movement  must disclose the source and the amount of their wealth/income.

Phantom

If you really want to help. Please read the whole Persian version; mark up any mistakes and send it back to David.

This is a starting point that is why is is called "interim" not final. The final version will no doubt be reviewed many times by scholars in Iran. The point of this document is to get the ideas across.

We can wrangle about the final wording when the IRR is gone. Back home in Tehran over many cups of tea. Meanwhile there is a job to do and limited time.

The majority of Iran's population are not going to reject a document because of a spelling error. Instead they will simply ask to have it fixed!

Article 14 addresses sexual preference clearly

All the people of Iran, whatever ethnic group or tribe to which they belong, enjoy equal rights. Color, race, language, religion, gender, sexual preference and the alike, do not bestow any privilege or lack of.

 Also there are many other articles tha apply to ALL (with no exceptions) such as:

.

The Pahlavis, all mullahs, and all public figures associated with the Green Movement  must disclose the source and the amount of their wealth/income.

Dear Phantom

As mentioned in inroduction I know this document is not flawless and in fact this is the FIRST draft in Persian.

But it is the first step in Persian and now I/we can seek Iranian lawyers to improve it. Until now that was not possible since it was in English and even the English document was not as comprehensive as it is now, versus a year ago.

So far MM and I have made some corrections to the current Persian document and your inputs as always will greatly be appreciated. Soon I will have the latest versions in both language available for download in PDF format at www.iransecular.org. But for now at least Preamble and article 1 are ready in Persian for distribution.

As for becoming the laughing stock , those who would laugh at such attempts will continue to laugh no matter what and I have never been concerned with them, because they could instead helped improve it.

Dear Phantom

Would you please be so kind as to point out these misspellings and other errors? That would be a helpful action. I am sure David would correct any mistakes when pointed out. 

In my opinion it is the content not the grammar that defines a document. I truly hail David's selfless action in putting this document together. As for the internet: that is the wave of the future.

.

The Pahlavis, all mullahs, and all public figures associated with the Green Movement  must disclose the source and the amount of their wealth/income.

Regarding Tabar's point #1

I believe he means that the constitution should ban persecution of people based on sexual orientation. In recent history there have been many gay Iranian patriots. We all know who they were.  We have seen what the IRR does to gay people: they are executed. There are several levels we can go to:

1) We should ban such barbaric treatment of people based on their sexual orientation. In effect the government will not be allowed to punish people for their sexual orientation. This was de-facto policy during the Pahlavi regime and should be again. Most Iranians even the conservative ones will be fine with this. 

2) The next step is to outright ban discrimination against people based on sexual orientation. Here we may get some resistance but it is still the right thing to do. 

This is my opinion. Sometimes the law must be ahead of people.

Donations

Head Translator of Persian2English.com graciously took the task of translating this document to Persian without asking for any money.

Meanwhile total of $340.00 in donations by 4 individuals have been received in my paypal account.

I will send an email to each , but those who donated if they wish, here also can reply here and let me know if they still wish their donations to be sent to the translator or to be returned via paypal.

In the event of no reply to my email by Feb. 11, 2010... I will send any remaining funds to translator.

I already paid for the domain and sites of www.iransecular.org and //iransecular.blog.com from my own funds. 

Also if anyone still would like to send a donation as a token of Appreciation to translator or www.persian2english.com , you can deposit it in my paypal at detebari@hotmail.com

Thank you for your kind support

good news

If you seach in GOOGLE for:

Secular republic

(not even mentioning the word Iran!)

or

Secular Constitution Iran

or

قانون­ اساسی  سکولار

this document as posted in Iranian.com shows up!

tabar

will you please explain both your points in more detail as I did not understand what you meant and the intent. Thank You.

MM /Hovakhshatare

 I have written an article and listed why I oppose a referendum Referendum Rabbits. I believe revolution of 1979 to end monrachy was bigger than a referendum , one that the votes were written in blood and not ballots. Popular revolutions are indications of people's will even more than referendums.

I also wote in this introduction that : 

"Putting aside the influence and the power of the clergy in both constitutions and their ultimate say over the laws of the nation, one cannot deny the evolutionary trend from the ultimate Monarchy to constitutional Monarchy in 1906 to a Republic in 1979 within the past 100+ years of Iranian history. "  

"The next evolutionary step for Iranians in their political progress is to completely separate religion from the state and therefore create a secular constitution.  Another important step is to remove elitism of any kind due to hierarchy by religion, family or other preferential status; as in future constitutions all the People are to treated equally in the eyes of the law and no one shall be given more rights than others for one reason or another"

and no we did not give republic a try, we gave velayat faghih and an Islamic government a try. This was neither a republic nor secular.

Just as monarchists have their own views, proposed constitutions and agenda, so do those who believe in a republic.

I do not expect them to put their beliefs away nor should that be expected of those who believe in a secular republic.

This document is not intending to bring everyone under one undefined and wide roof but to show what one/some believe in and then it will be to the readers to chose it or not.

The preamble and even article 2 can be used by anyone including monachists. But when it comes to the whole constitution and road map it is very specific about being of a republic and by changing its heading, it will not change its content and in fact will show that the author is dishonest in advertising one thing and selling another!

This document was not created in a vacuum but as I explained in introduction to draft 4, it followed a chain of other introductions that explained its basis.

It started with a"  roadmap towards organization of peaceful weekly national strike days in Iran until the collapse of the Islamic Republic. At the time many were skeptical of these possibilities anytime soon, but only 7 months later such visions were proven to be closer to reality.

About the same time I wrote another article titled "Referendum Rabbits" stating why the sources of calls for a future referendum determining the form of a government in Iran are rooted in other conspiracies similar to the referendum of 30 years ago.

A month later in few blogs I studied "Iran Constitutions: From Islamic Monarchy to Islamic Republic"

This is intended to unite those who believe in a secular republic and educate those who do not know what it looks like. It is intended to be a platform towards a future secular republic and nothing else.

Those who believe in post IR referedum can refer to another secular constitution that has been formed which leaves the form of future government to future. I dont have the link to it but its from green seculars and ramintork knows about it.

I will later post a link to it and in fact once the word at hand is finished, I am intending to have a page on secular.org with links to all other proposed constiutions, so that teh site can offer alternatives for future and final constituion.

I am all for unity but also they should be under terms that all agree on and not based on sacraificing principals.

I believe the preamble can be used by anyone who believes in a democratic secular state of any kind.

Dear David

Thanks for th translated version,

I have one suggestion; for the principle called "Gender Equality" I think we should make it "Gender and Sexual Equality" just so that we can fit those two in one heading [since they are related]. 

Also how come there isn't a large heading for the fact that we're an empire, not a nation state? There is one for gender equality but not for cultural equality. It's mentioned later in the text briefly but I think it should be up there with gender Equality as a main header, as well as mentioned in article 2.

We need solidarity

David,

As you know, I supported this document early on and hope that we see the day when an elected official rule the vast, diverse and united land we affectionately call Iran.  Having said that, I, like Hovakhshatare, realize the Persian proverb saying “one can lift a large watermelon much better with two hands”.

I read the 2008 Iranian.com blog/thread that you mentioned and sensed a bid of stow-piping on both sides.  You and DK (as RP rep) had built your castles and both were ready to defend them no matter what.  I did not sense any urgency to come to the middle of the road and do a bid of horse-trading, and I hope that we can do better this time around.  What I, as well as Hovakhshatare, are saying is that let’s get the basic rights/laws in place, form a large tent and even you admitted that it will be up to the people of Iran to go or not to go with Monarchy after IRI falls.

I am a realist.  First of all, if we provide a large ideological tent whether one is a secularist, Monarchist, low level MKO, Jebheh-ye Melli, etc.  I think we will have a united front that is recognized by everyone.  Right now, IRI does not take the opposition Diaspora seriously because she knows that we are all fragmented. 

Secondly, we should unite under a known ideology, not a person and not even a flag.  You are correct.  We did that in 1979 and the hidden constitutional agenda was written after people voted for an Islamic Republic that Khomeini promised.  This way, we (Diaspora & people of Iran) know the preamble and the basic constitution that unites us and there will not be a surprise later.  If the likes of RP do not meet us half-way, then full steam ahead with our own agenda.

To make sure that Reza Pahlavi will stick to the agreed preamble, we can ask him to specifically endorse the constitution in writing, call for it on various Iranian satellite programs or any other guarantees that are agreeable.  And, I do not really care less that he fesses up to the actions of his father and grandfather or not.  I am looking forward to the day that Iran has an elected official (w/ or w/o Monarchy) and we do not ever see $20,000,000,000 worth of petrol money/gold seized in a truck in Turkey, bound probably to VF’s account in Syria.