VOICE

RELIGIOUS IRAN

The real Iranian's are Zorasterian. Islam was brought to Iran from the savage arabs, Christianity from the conquering Romans and greeks, and Baha'i was brought from the greedy self-helping Jews. The people of this forum need to remember "GOD MADE MEN- MEN MADE RELIGION"
America is about to go to war with Iran, because the greedy Jews and stubborn Arabs dont like each other. Where's the sense in that??
The Jews are too greedy to part with any money to buy part of Palestine (and name it Israel) and the Arabs have too much money from their oil to be interested in selling.
In the process innocent Iraqi's, Palestinians, Americans and Afghan's die around the world.

THE WORLD IS GOING THROUGH SO MANY CHANGES AND SO MANY LITTLE WARNINGS AND HINTS ARE BEING GIVEN TO US BY GOD, BUT WE TURN A BLIND EYE.
UNTIL WE ARE FACED WITH A GLOBAL THREAT, WE WILL NOT APPRECIATE THE BEAUTIFUL WORLD THE LORD HAS GIVEN US, BECAUSE WE ALL HAVE A LITTLE JEW AND ARAB IN US ALL!!

Is Nothing Sacred?

Nothing is Sacred -- the title of this Portal -- I could not have said it any better myself.

My nom de plum is Shaykh Yerbuti, after the disco song of the 1970's, if you get the joke. This letter is from a native born American who became a Baha'i in the 1970's. I address this letter to the young people of Iran; to the Iranian Baha'is; to the fanatical mullahs and other government representatives, secret agents and other similar crazy-like fanatics who call themselves followers of the Prophet Muhammad. It is not going to be pretty, but seldom is truth received well the first time around. And since this is on the internet, and it's anonymous, you dickhead diaperheads can kiss my "Made in the USA" ass. Or, you can come after me and kill me, like good little terrorists that you are. Or, you can do both. Why not?

First and foremost, to my Baha'i brothers and sisters in Iran:
Please hold on!! Please keep the Faith!! I give you all my heartfelt support and love for all the persecution, denial of basic human rights, murders and injuries you have suffered in the Name of the Cause of God. One day very soon Jamal-i-Mubarak will make it all right again.

To all the young people of Iran, whether Muslim (Shi'ih, Sunni, Sufi, Wahhabi, etc.), Christian (Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Evangelical, etc.), Jewish, Zoroastrian, Baha'i, or whatever:
I am sorry to say that your leaders have betrayed you, whether they be religious, political, academic, or a combination of all three. They betrayed you with the advent of Ayatollah Khomeini back in 1979. In the vain hope that this jackal in cleric's clothing could somehow issue in the promised golden age of the Muslim Millennium, he brought it to you all, and in spades. The culture/religious internal war to try and bring into reality a religious paradise in the form of an Islamic Republic was a joke, a sham, to all those inside and outside of Iran who had an ounce of common sense and reason.

And when he wanted to overthrow the "little Satan", Saddam Hussein and the Baathists in Iraq, he and his mullah buddies were all too willing to send the best and the brightest, Iran's future, into the maelstrom with the promise to die a martyr’s death by wearing a green bandana around one's head. Volunteer, or die!! Some choice!!

Meanwhile, you, the citizens of Iran, who have a culture that goes back at least 5,000 years, who had accepted the Prophet Muhammad and His Teachings, are made the laughing-stock of people around the world who could care less for your success or failure in regards to scientific, cultural or material advancement. And now, by your leaders somehow rattling the nuclear saber, in the vain hope of showing the rest of the world how tough Iran can and will be, if need be, causing the whole damn nation to become martyrs. Wow, what a glorious future!! Sign me up!!

You blew it!! You guys blew it!! You could have led the world culturally, scientifically, and even spiritually to some degree. The world was yours for the taking, on a silver platter no less!! If only you hadn't done it! If only the mighty mullahs had not stirred up their king (shah), and the illiterate masses, and had not killed your very own promised One the Qa’im, his disciples and tens of thousands of his followers. That's right, they, the Muslim clerics and their followers did it back then, and you, the successors to those depraved assholes, are doing it again -- all over again!!

His name was Ali Muhammad Shirazi. He assumed the title of Báb. He was born in 1819, revealed His Message in 1844, and was imprisoned, tortured and finally killed in 1850. Oh, by the way, one more little thing. He was your Qa'im -- your very own, promised Qa'im!! If your leaders recognized and followed Him, Iran would not be in this mess today. In fact, the whole fucking world would be a whole lot better off if you shitheads had humbled yourselves before God!!

Oh, one more little thing. The Báb made a promise that after Him would appear the Qayyum, the Christ returned in the Glory of the Father, to establish His Kingdom upon the earth, the Promised One of all the previous ages and religions, the World Redeemer who would set things right for ALL humanity, for ALL nations, forever!!

His name was Mirza Husayn 'Ali Nuri. He assumed the title of Baha'u'llah. He was born in 1817, revealed His Message in 1863, was imprisoned, tortured, exiled and finally died in 1892. Oh, by the way, world, one more little thing. He was your Promised Redeemer, your very own World Savior!! If your leaders recognized and followed Him, Iran and the rest of this world would not be in this mess today. In fact, the whole fucking world would be a whole lot better off if you shitheads, the POWERS THAT BE and the unrepentant masses of the world had humbled yourselves before God!!

Oh, one more little thing. Baha'u'llah made a promise to keep his Promise as the Heavenly Father Who would establish His Kingdom upon the earth, the Promised One of all the previous ages and religions, the World Redeemer who would set things right for ALL humanity, for ALL nations, forever!!

Now why is a lowly, irreverent pipsqueak, punk-ass bitch like me taking the time out of your very busy schedules to inform you of these matters? Because, assholes, if you don't hear it now, you'll God damn wished you HAD heard it before you die, you dumb-ass motherfuckers!!

They, the Báb and Baha'u'llah, came, they saw, they conquered!! It's a done deal!! It's all over but the crying, folks!! Something in the world has had to have happened in the last 100 or so years, hasn't it motherfuckers!! We went from horse carts to spaceships to the moon. We've had 2 world wars, several times an almost nuclear war. We've grown from 1.5 billion to 6.5 billion souls upon this gorgeous little planet we call home. If you have an ounce of feeling or sense in what you call that thing between your ears, you see nearly everybody everywhere is looking for the Millennium!! Where will it come from? Who? How? What? Most importantly, why?

Is it so that a group of misogynistic zealots can blow themselves up because they are too afraid or too stupid, like their dumb-ass religious teachers who say that is the best way to live life, the best that life has to offer? FUCK THAT, HABIB!!

If you zealot motherfuckers want to kill us "infidel" Baha'is off, you better kill all of us off!! You better blow up every fucking Baha'i building, burn every fucking Baha'i book, home, or whatever else you can lay your blood-soaked hands on, because we are here to stay, we will not go away, we are in your face, motherfuckers!! Get with the program!!

Hugs, Kisses and Warm Fuzzies,

Shaykh Yerbuti

ManNamanam, The change of

ManNamanam,

The change of attitude refers to the attitude of the Islamic government not the people of Iran.
Read the article and read the posts.

Good luck

Re: greetings and salutations, I

I, unfortunately, am obligated to say that I do not see any mutual respect in what you said; It seems moslems are the root of evil and they have to come out, change their attitude and respect others. If we do not put all this in historical context, we will be erroneous. We can't have a short-term memory. I am referring to the role of Bahai faith in Iran right from the formation thru world-war I and II, Constitutional movement, Mossaddegh era, Hojabr Yazdani, Ayadi, Sabet Pasal and others' role in contemporary history of Iran. The irony is that Bahais are not supposed to be involved in politics but at the same time, We see major roles being played.
What is going on in the world today is another inevitable transition in human history. The developing countries are rising up and they want their own share of running their own destiny. It has nothing to do with religion. Religion is a tool just like Nukes, F-22, torpedo......etc. It is the injustice, unfairness and inequality that exist in material world on one hand and over-population and lack of mutual repect among nations on the other hand.

I think we need to stop showing good face/tongue and start showing good heart/action - That is my message;

Peace;

greetings and salutations, I

greetings and salutations,
I am so glad that peace has prevailed over this tread, hopefully for good, this is significant!
Although just a tread it is a seed of tolerance!
Sasha I am glad that you were exposed to someone so global and fair minded as K. Armestrong. Ironically I purchased this book at a Bahai event from a Bahai library run mostly by western believers. The chances of a Bahai purchasing the Prophets biography slim! no not at all, the chances of western Bahais respecting Islam not slim at all. in fact they know much about Islam that may get credit for.
Rosie is a peace maker so watch out she has the key!
Manam has shown a degree of enlightenment that is very heart warming.
The question of the Bahai Faith specially for Iranian is of a major significance as Rosie has well pointed out.
If and when our Moslem brothers in any capacity they may be, exercise respect, tolerance and good will toward their Bahai countryman at a much greater scale, they will have overcome the greatest obstacle that has held this wonderful nation captive for so long.
they will be the peace makers and capable of manifesting such self abnegation, composure, confidence and wisdom that once crowned their head.
Very specifically this is taking social responsibility which is a mandate of spiritual awakening and divine enlightenment.
this is a sign of coming of age and maturity. this can only bring more respect and honor to the Islamic faith. this will prove that Moslems are tolerant and respectable and respectful people and must be treated as such.
we do not take pleasure, under any circumstances, in insults, belittling, abuse, oppression, or smear campaigns. Malice is not permitted, no matter who the subject may be.
freedom to revere the faith we desire is the most fundamental of all rights. it is the foundation of progress both spiritually and materially.
I know it may sound more like preaching, never the less i am compelled to share this with you.
Thank you for your genuine efforts in bringing about tolerance and mutual understanding.
cheers

Dear Naman

I'm glad you haven't left the thread completely. I'll post soon. Please keep checking.
Robin

ManNaManam.........I totally agree

 I totally agree that there is not just one way to salvation. Instead that there are different paths and that people's religious beliefs should be respected. After all when it all comes down to the end, it is God and God alone that decides.

ManNaManam: "Peacefull coexistence is ONLY possible wih mutual respect and tolerance - whether it is at familial, friendship or social, or global level."

I could not have said it better myself. :o)

solh (peace)

Natalia Nadia

Re: Karen Armstrong

Hi Seagull and Sasha,
I truthfully was not aware of Karen's belief. She is a great human with a gentle heart;
We need more toleran people like her around us to be vocal! Although I do not share the same worldview as she has, but I respect her for what she stands for:
“ I usually describe myself, perhaps flippantly, as a freelance monotheist. I draw sustenance from all three of the faiths of Abraham. I can't see any one of them as having the monopoly of truth, any one of them as superior to any of the others. Each has its own particular genius and each its own particular pitfalls and Achilles' heels. But recently, I've just written a short life [story] of the Buddha, and I've been enthralled by what he has to say about spirituality, about the ultimate, about compassion and about the necessary loss of ego before you can encounter the divine. And all the great traditions are, in my view, saying the same thing in much the same way, despite their surface differences. ”

Peacefull coexistence is ONLY possible wih mutual respect and tolerance - whether it is at familial, friendship or social, or global level.
Peace;

Re: Dear ManNaManam, If my faith

Hi Seagull,
I replied to your posting yesterday but somehow it did not make it to the list; Here it is:

1.
"If my faith and certitude is a matter of arrogance and transgression to you, then you are failing your self investigation of truth test, you cant respect that and there is no much I can do."
............
"arrogance and transgression" is only meaningfull on behalf of God. I don't think anybody's faith would result in arrogance or transgression on someone else's belahf except on bealf of God. I was just quoting an ayah from quran.
................

2.
"As far as being real, do a reality check on your claims and tell us what sect of Islam has effectively applied any of these principles! in the past or future, any is acceptable.
Equality of sexes is a tool, so everything can be misused. Look at the reason a lot of good Moslem's use to discard the fanatic elements. they say they USE the religion of God to their own ends."
............
Don't worry about Islamic nations not exercising Islamic laws; Even in USA, the women had no right to vote until few decades ago. Freedom is a state of mind. People have to feel the need to exercise it. I think that time has come to Islamic world as well. The point is that the ideaology is not limiting factor - We can talk about this. I can't defend who did what. Politics is ugly!
...........

3.
"If you are afraid of using anything good that has the potential for misuse, no progress will be made, you cant worry to much about that just do the right thing."
...............
This sounds essential; One needs to validate what is considered "good", first.
..........

4.
"About Bahai faith being a political protest, you just simply have no idea of what you are saying, it just sounds pretty to you. All the political protest we see with a simple reality check comes from you know where."
...............
"Political protest", I mean the formation of Bahai faith. I think it make sense. We have a lot of these in history,not just Islamic countries. You can find it in Europes middle ages and rennaisance era such as Protestantism....Luteran.
.............

5.
"Islam for the most part is built on Judaism, read the stories ou will know, so why would God put brothers against brothers, not very rational, is it!
Possibilities! them wrong you right, you wrong them write, both wrong, both right, which one is it!?
or is it a political protest!?"
..................
Islam believes if all prophets gather under one roof, there will not even be one point of conflict or argument. So, Islam's message is same as christianity or Judaism or other Abrahamic religions. We, the believers, hypocrites are the problem if brother is against brother. In a way you are correct: God puts brother against brother only by the way of setting the laws of nature - If you and I go on the "crash course" we will therefore collide. However, God gives us vision not to go on "crash course". We having this gift of freedom from God, just want to put our ego in control and end up crashing!!!!! Remember, nobody is absolutely right. We have scales of wrongness in each of us - Only God is right.
.......................

7.
"I will refresh your memory now and you refresh mine since this blog is to long to keep track of.
The message of this blog is why should Bahais be mistreated in Iran, why should they not have their basic rights?"
...................
Who says Bahai's should not have their rights. Islam gives right even to atheist (enemies of God) to live in peace in islamic society. Is it practiced in islamic societies? I think majority of people have no problem with that. The governments, I have lots of doubt. I told you politics is ugly.
...............

8.
"with all this wonderful principles that is abundant in the Islamic books and traditions as you state, every one in Iran or any Islamic country would be free to choose and live in peace.

Again let me put us back on the track, why should Bahais have no rights in Iran? I am not asking whether you agree with the Bahais or not that is yours to choose but that should not change the status of the rights of others and become a licence to persecute them, unless there is truth in their claim and that would be enough motivation."
..................
I sincerely agree with you on freedom of faith and my belief is Islam wants people to be free to choose their faith. You can see this all over quran that God says: O' mohammad, you are only the messenger and don't strain yourself or feel bad if people do not receive "the message" and your belief belongs to you and their belief is theirs. Even clergy say that following someone else in believing in God or prophet is forbidden - One has to go and find their own reasoning for their belief. But, why do they preach something and practice something else, I see two reasons; It's a global issue and does not belong to a specific faith :
1. Lack of logic - When people run out of logic, they use force to drive their agenda.
2. Conspiracy theory - Quran says propagating a corrupt idea is more deadlier than killing people. So, It's an easy way to go to war with someone if you can brand them as followers of a corrupt ideaology just like what happened to Jesus, what is happening to Moslems (branding them as terrorist) or Bahai's. Now, who's right and who's wrong? Well, I think Islam does not give me authority to impose my belief on someone because it considers Islam as a natural tendency of one's heart and fully compatible with his/her soul. So, no force is required.
.........................
9.
"
now you refresh my memory please,

Are you one of those who chastise people if you judge them as transgressor????"
.............
I feel offended by this question;
...................

10.
"
Do you agree with the persecution of the Bahais of Iran on the basis of their beliefs?"
................
Persecution is ugly;
...................

11.
"Remember this article is not putting Bahai Faith or the Islamic Faith on trial. this is about Islamic government of Irans lack of respect for human rights and its continued repression of Bahais."
.................
This is where I beg to differ; I told you politics is ugly and I don't mix it with my faith. Why IRI is pushing their agenda aginst Bahai's in Iran is political whether you accept it or not. In the meantime, that does not give IRI the right to repress or ignore their human rights based on their faith. Don't feel you are singled out. I know a clergy who fell out of love with IRI and his two daughters had to pay for it - they were deprived of higher education.
...............

Seagull......How awesome...........

 How awesome to know that someone else is familiar with Karen Armstrong's work.  We saw a film based on  some of her work in my World Religons Philosophy class. As it was important to my professor for the students to gain an objective view of Islam. :o)

Sorry, to say my professor did not cover the Bahai faith and that is why,  I have been reading the comments by believers of the Bahai faith on this thread. In order to gain a better understanding of it. :o)

Natalia Nadia

Dear NaManManam and

Dear NaManManam and Astraysoul,
as a Bahai, I do find some of the misrepresentations of the Prophet Mohammad in the media extremely repulsive and unworthy of mention or attention.
I am deeply saddened for this.
You and astray are sincere faithful Moslems and i respect that. Although many accusations have been heaped on the Bahais, it is more dishartening that God forbid we offend anyone from other faiths. It is the duty for us to put other religionists before us, and not to offend anyone!
Ofcourse not all media are unfair to the Islamic faith and if you care to look up this book called A Biography of the Prophet Muhammad, you will be pleased to see an objective sum up of the Prophets work and accomplishment by a Christian westerner, Karen Armstrong.
Good luck to you, and remmeber at the end of the day we are brothers.
Astray by the way I served during the war with saddam, side by side my moslem and other iranian brothers, true heros they were to me.
God, Lord, Allah bliss

Never answered even one question

Mr. Mananmanm etc
.

I agree that we should finish this.
.
On one side you ask questions, accuse Baha'is of anything you like, never produce a single piece of evidence, and say Baha’is deserve what they get in Iran.
On other hand I try to answer every point you raise to best of my ability, and I have never insulted your beliefs or Islam or prophet Mohammad.
.
Every point raised in my answer to you, was from a short research on Wikipedia, the references are correct and can be checked.
You say the Laws of Islam are compatible with today’s world and in Islam there are rules for “every single organism in the Universe”, I was just pointing some of the rules that are no longer valid.
I may be wrong, but I am happy to back my discussion with evidence. May be you could do the same in the future.
.
Do not be so sensitive, I am certainly not insulting Islam or Prophet Mohammad, but I am questioning your intentions and your sincerity.
.
By the way you never answered any of my questions!

Bye
Ramin

Re: Ramin

Hey man,
I would like to end my discussion here since it's going wrong direction. You have started showing your true colors now! I feel sorry that you proved my point - You started with a very gentle, kind, peacefull face and now I feel awfull that I turned you into someone who portrays Islam's prophet as a such. Islam bashing is in-style these days, but our deeds will not go away. They stay with us -they form us.

All the subjects you raise are baseless interpretation fabricated to feed the nmedia these days. I (who knows little) can go on and expand on the subjects that are beyond the capacity of this internet thread. Try to spend a bit less time with your Akka gate keepers!
Peace Bro!

Re: Mariner

What is the relevancy of Rumi peom to this thread? It shows sea of vision and depth of love a true believer possess. I gives me a glimpse of hope. He was a great man! Do you see a scent of blasphemy, arrogance, treason, selfishness in his message? He seems to reflect the light he receives.

lost-identity

Beautiful poem, and Rumi a fantastic mystic, no doubt!
How does this poem fit here? what are you trying to convey in this blog?
How has all this beauty and divine truth changed you for. after all results is what is desired.
What if I got wings but cant fly I would still be a winged land dweller, a few ponds heavier and much bigger ego!
so invoking or hearing the truth should have more effect on our substance than contention and if that is the case we fail to appreciate what that truth really means, meaning hum mm what a beautiful thing!
You cant use the truth to make no point or to score negative. Truth only complements truth.
read on and on if it gives you wings and you sore and you experience divinity then the object is met,
and you will see love, receive love and reflect love.
This is the truth, is that what you are saying, I cant see you, where art thou brother?

Dear ManNaManam, If my faith

Dear ManNaManam,
If my faith and certitude is a matter of arrogance and transgression to you, then you are failing your self investigation of truth test, you cant respect that and there is no much I can do.
As far as being real, do a reality check on your claims and tell us what sect of Islam has effectively applied any of these principles! in the past or future, any is acceptable.
Equality of sexes is a tool, so everything can be misused. Look at the reason a lot of good Moslem's use to discard the fanatic elements. they say they USE the religion of God to their own ends.
If you are afraid of using anything good that has the potential for misuse, no progress will be made, you cant worry to much about that just do the right thing.
About Bahai faith being a political protest, you just simply have no idea of what you are saying, it just sounds pretty to you. All the political protest we see with a simple reality check comes from you know where.
Islam for the most part is built on Judaism, read the stories ou will know, so why would God put brothers against brothers, not very rational, is it!
Possibilities! them wrong you right, you wrong them write, both wrong, both right, which one is it!?
or is it a political protest!?

I will refresh your memory now and you refresh mine since this blog is to long to keep track of.
The message of this blog is why should Bahais be mistreated in Iran, why should they not have their basic rights?
with all this wonderful principles that is abundant in the Islamic books and traditions as you state, every one in Iran or any Islamic country would be free to choose and live in peace.

Again let me put us back on the track, why should Bahais have no rights in Iran? I am not asking whether you agree with the Bahais or not that is yours to choose but that should not change the status of the rights of others and become a licence to persecute them, unless there is truth in their claim and that would be enough motivation.
now you refresh my memory please,

Are you one of those who chastise people if you judge them as transgressor????
Do you agree with the persecution of the Bahais of Iran on the basis of their beliefs?
can you answer my question with righteousness, and truthfulness that is particular to your faith?
If you are forthcoming and respond i will courteously attempt to provide you with reading material for contemplation on the subject and concern of your choice but for now this is sufficient.

Remember this article is not putting Bahai Faith or the Islamic Faith on trial. this is about Islamic government of Irans lack of respect for human rights and its continued repression of Bahais.
I thank you for the opportunity for this discussion.

Answers for Mannamanm in 3 parts! Part3

Remember that vast majority of the world are non-believers.
.

As to your repeating question regarding other sects.
.
Firstly Ahmadiyya and Qadiani are one and the same! They are not two sects. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian started the sect in India and it then moved to Pakistan, it was founded in 1889, about 49 year after the Baha’I (Babi) faiths. They consider themselves as Muslims.
.
Wahhabis were founded by Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab at-Tamimi in the 18th century, about one hundred (100) years before the Baha’i faith. Again they consider themselves the most true Muslims.
( we don’t consider ourselves Muslims, The Baha’i Faith is the most recent independent religion of the world and second most widespread after Christianity, all by peaceful means)
.

So these as you call them "sister faiths" were not born with a few decades of each other as you claim but in a space of 150 years! So please do a little research, nothing is more embarrassing than uninformed claims of knowledge.
.
Secondly you are insinuating that because these religious movements appeared during the same period of time (which they didn’t) they must be the work of the English.
.
I can only point you to many previous answers.
the burden of proof falls on you, produce some evidence. Every item of Baha'i adminstration in Iran is confiscated by the regime, why they don't publish any of the evidence that points to our treason? Why a supposed Baha'i spy is released if he converts to Islam?
.
There were also other religious movements in the west such Mormons (1830’s) and Seven Day Adventist (1844) and Jehovah Witness (1900). Does it mean that English were trying to cause conflict amongst themselves.
On the other hand Islam is divided, look at shi’a and Sunnis in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran.. Why would they bother creating a new sect?!
.
So to my question:
I am going to ask one, which you have avoided each time, because I think if you answer it honestly to yourself, you will find a lot of your questions about the Baha’i Faith answered.
Why was there a need for Islam after Judaism, when they are very similar and they appeared in similar region and many parts of Quran is retelling of old testament stories?

.
And once again I ask you to please have the curtesy to give some thoughtful answers to the points I have brought up. otherwise I am not here for idle chit chat.

Regards
Ramin

Answers for Mannamanm in 3 parts! Part2

Now let me talk about your statement you made about completeness of Islam.
We as Baha’is believe in Islam and its teaching, we believe that they were the appropriate teachings for humanity at the time Prophet Mohammad and these teachings were very advanced for their time, but their time has come to an end, the Laws of Islam have been abrogated.
.
as an example I return to Laws regarding the station of women and I hope this will also answer your question regarding our stance on equality issue to some degree.
You said;
“Islam believes in full equality between man and women when it comes to civil rights.”
Lets look at some of the laws,
a) Divorce:
“For both Shi'a and Sunni Muslims, the right to demand a divorce is primarily for men. Unless otherwise specified in the marriage contract, women can only seek divorce through court proceedings by convincing a qadi to grant a divorce.
Women usually can ask for divorce only when the husband’s inability to support her life is admitted, while men can divorce at will.”
b) Testimony:
The testimony of two women can equal that of one man.[ Qur'an 2:282]
c) custody of children
always with the father and not the mother.
d) age of marriage
"A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, while other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, and kissing are allowed.”
Quote form:
....Sayings of the Ayatollah Khomeini: Political, Philosophical, Social, & Religious Bantam Books:1985. ISBN-10: 0553140329
(I have censored the most awful parts, for sake of some decency, it is easily available on the net.)
e)Number of concubines
“There is no limit on the number of concubines a master may possess”
.
Do I need to go on?... How can you say that these laws are compatible with today’s world? How can you say they in essence are about equality of sexes?, and you expect that the “non believers”, (Koffar), should convert and follow them.
Laws of Islam, I repeat, we believe were advanced for their time and place and actually gave rights to woman that did not exist before but they are not valid any more.
.
the same can be said about oneness of humanity and world without borders.
Yes, Islam has advanced the Idea of oneness of man, and equality of Muslims in site of God is a shinning example of this faith of God, however there are certain laws in Islam that are impediments to the oneness of humanity today
.
For example:
“The Qur'an accepts the institution of slavery.
.
I rush to add the slave benefited greatly from advent of Islam, and Prophet Mohammad freed many, but again we live in 21st century and does not matter how advanced were the laws of Islam with regards to slavery, they are not applicable or compatible with oneness of humanity.
.
The other impediment is the treatment of non-believers and apostates in Islamic world.
Within the living memory my father, Jews and Zoroastrians in Iran had to wear different colour clothing, never leave home while it was raining, so pious Muslims did not become unclean by accidentally touching them.
I won't bore you with the fate of the apostates such as the Baha'is.
How can you justify this reality with oneness of humanity?
Remember that vast majority of the world are non-believers.

Answers for Mannamanm in 3 parts! Part1

Mr Mannamanm etc…

Thank you for admitting that you are changing your name during this discussion. Although it does not bother me people changing their name, it makes having a seious conversation very difficult.
You seem to change your name every time there is difficult issue to answer. Rather answering it, you appear with a different name and repeat the same unsubstantiated accusations.

I like you to answer my questions raised here, before we continue this discussion, if you are serious about it, otherwise I have better things to do.
.
I am extending the curtesy of answering your points one by one and hope that you have the dignity of responding in kind.

Firstly, please do not try to take the high ground that you do not have a firm ideology and you are just questioning, and I quote:
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“Unlike you guys, I never think I am right. I only thing God is right!”
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You are as driven by ideology as any one else on this discussion, you have chosen not to proclaim your beliefs, unlike myself or Rosie etc. this is obviouse from your statement:
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“Islam is a system of belief that encompasses solutions to every living organism in this universe.”
Now this is a statement of faith if I ever saw one.
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Or another statement by yourself:
“My point about Rumi is that, I find alot more ethics, morale discussions, Love, Piety, holiness, science, jurisprudence, guidelines for life, etc. in divane shams and mathnavi than in Bahai as a whole.”
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This is obviously your belief, but you completely fail to support this with any logic or evidence and in fact contradict yourself in your very next sentence:

“Now about the Bahai laws, I have to tell you I expect you to know more than me about your faith. I know ver little….”
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If you know very little, how can you be sure that there is more in Rumi’s writing than in the Baha’I faith?!

Now let me talk about your statement you made about completeness of Islam.

Rumi on Fire: That barbed

Rumi on Fire:
That barbed wire on your path is the mind
Cut the wire and your path clearly find.
Heart trickster, soul veil and mind bind
To find the path you must put all three behind.
When you transcend heart and soul as well as mind
It is like giving sight to the blind.
Make your chest like a target well defined
That bow is strung, the arrow is well aligned
Only that chest in complaint can open tongue
On whose face hundred arrows have been flung
To think love is for the feeble is just wrong
Love is for the courageous and the strong.
Self-expression to the needy don’t belong
Benevolent Love is the path for old and young.
If like Enoch must follow the angelic song
Will find Love on that ladder in every wrung
Shams-e Tabriz is here, joyous and kind
Gospel of Love in his being you will find.

Re: to shaer,hussanali,manamanm

Instead of being a psychologist, try to be a realist. Look at what I say and give me some response I can ponder on.

I still say, I do not clain to be All right or The right. My 1st step in rejecting someone is if they claim to be "right" - It's the arrogance at it's best!

I can see lots of contradiction in your post - lot's of aggrevation is the cause of it.

"There's no force in religion(Islam). For sure, the uplifing and rightousness is clearly defined and separated from arrogance and transgression".

Mannamanam likes to discard

Mannamanam likes to discard everything but has no real solution, he has no idealogy, he does not think he is right, yet he is here posting and insisting that others are wrong so that he is right by implication how clever is that! Oh he also claims self investigation is written all over the Book, but it bothers him when people choose for themselves, hummm that could create perplexity in ones very core of being.

Hussenali has a blue print, that the rest of the world is not really comfortable with. huston we got a problem!
I on the other hand am certain that i am right or I would not be posting here! this does not mean anyone is wrong by the way, no offense intended.
Thank God though all my thinking finally delivered me to certainty, or who knows how long i'd be thinkin with no results!
we are all children of one God, lets live that reality please!

Dear Rosie, I can not help

Dear Rosie, I can not help but to admire your capacity to understand, Jesus has done well for you.
I am not buttering you up, just an observation.
I will stop posting once I become certain that this is no longer a discussion but a contending ground.
the purpose is to instill peace not to provoke animosity, there is plenty of that without asking!
Good night and good luck.

HI

I'm following this thread.  I don't know where it's leading. I don't think it's my place to say anything right now, I'm not a Bahai and Naman obviously has grievances with the Bahai.  II'll keep reading and post more at length soon, if it continues.  i jsust want to say two things.

The first is a repetition of things I've already said:  You Bahia, your legitimate critics are your best friends and allies. They guard you against sanctiony, wihich is the danger of every religion.  Naman, non-ideology is also an ideolgy.

The next thing I want to say is that Naman and the Bahai certainly have one thing in common:  they are determined to keep a thread alive if it has something of substance which moves them.    That is much much more than can be said for most of the people on this website, who abandon a thread just when it's going somewhere, because someone posted a photo essay on the homepage about an Iranian stripper, or  flock to a new article just came out about what we think about military invasion, when really the old discussion on the old article would've done equally well....You have so much in common....You're substantial people...you have...sticktoit-iveness. Focus.  Tenacity.  What a gift.  What common ground!

Re: Confuused heart

You say:
"Bahaullah has made it a duty on every soul to self investigate the truth. "

This is not something new. we believe that God has given us two gifts as it comes to guiding us:
1. External Prophet; All the messengers from God.
2. Internal prophet; Our brain.
We are supposed to listen to the saying and use our brain to reason. If the two agree, it's a genuine message from God. This is all over quran.

The domain of brain is in physical world; You can not use brain to further your vision in supernatural domain. You need to use your inner vision. close this physical eye and open the one within.
chesme del baz kon ke jan bini;
anche nadidani st an bini;

What bugs me is that you think you need something else to stand up and walk. This is why I think Bahai is more of a political protest than a new ethical system.

Unlike you guys, I never think I am right. I only thing God is right!

Re: these guys cant even run

O' lost soul,
TThe bluprint to solve world problem is:
"FIX YOUR SELF" That is the message of Islam. Once you fix your "self" you will be set your "SELF" free rising above this worldly temptation and need.

You are the "problem", the "solution" and the "specimen". Seek everything within, you will find an ocean to explore and conquer and if you could not it will drawn you!

I do not know what your religion says - please enlighten us?
peace;

This is a conflict of worldview, Ramin;

Dear Ramin, Your guess is partially right. I also use Hoseinali name but not the other 2. Does that make you believe that you could be wrong on other subjects, maybe? I always say that the degenerative desease of religous people is the Dogma they possesses - I am right and others are wrong.

I think it's a bit of unfairness to compare Bahai faith to Islam on equal basis. Islam is a system of belief that encompasses solutions to every living organism in this universe. Now, just think about it, Bahai coming with couple of rules about "equality of men and women" and "world without border" prophecies and claiming new is a bit indigestive by a rational mind. Let me tell you that just these two subjects are very much mentioned in Islam:
Equality of men and women is a tool used in the hands of modern man. Even in the modernsocieties, there's no such a believe. It is only used to further push the consumerism and exploitation of women. Islam believes in inequality (as we define it) between man and women when it comes to physique. On the other hand, Islam believes in full equality between man and women when it comes to civil rights. Now combination of this gives a very dynamic and practical solution to human society to produce a healthy social ad familial environment. Vision of islam on the subject of sexes is that man and woman are COMPLEMENTARY - not equal and not unequal. This means it takes both sexes to make a good life - One without the other is incomplete. But, does that mean one is inferior than the other - Of course, NOT. Do some unholy, hypocrite and corrupt minds take advantage of their physical superiority to overrule, Of corse, YES and it's equally found in any belief system.
This Pairing of sexes is a rule of nature.
The main goal of islam when it comes to issue of sexes is to assure decency and sustainable social/familial relations based on individual rights. As you know there's no difference between sexes in God's judgment, only piety. There's many aya about this.
"World without border" is again nothing new. It was the original message of Islam. It claims that everything belongs to God. It goes further beyond the geographical boundaries and claims "oneness" of human race and color looses it's sense. I don't know how you conclude that this is ssome new idea? Islam is not there to create borders, conversly tearing down all the man-made separations.

My point about Rumi is that, I find alot more ethics, morale discussions, Love, Piety, holiness, science, jurisprudence, guidelines for life, etc. in divane shams and mathnavi than in Bahai as a whole. Did Rumi claimed to be a prophet? Did he live in any better time than Mirza Hoseinali live? Why did he then ended up capturing the hearts of mankind so much without any propaganda?
I humbly ask you to parallel two lives and if you are a rational man, you will find your answer.

Now about the Bahai laws, I have to tell you I expect you to know more than me about your faith. I know ver little.....I meant Mirza had to fiddle a bit with praying, fasting, marriage, burial and other rituals to distinguish himself. I won't go to details since you know the differences. The details is not as important to me as the intention of changing the ritual methods is.

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I think there's a big disconnect between us when it comes to prophets mushrooming within decade of Mirza's appearance. I'm still waiting for your take on the sister faiths of bahai in that decade such as Wahabi, Ahmadiyyah and Ghadiani. How can I be more straight than this?

these guys cant even run

these guys cant even run this shop without, threatening, insulting, bad mouthing, slandering, accusing, blaming, indignifying, perverting, preaching.... and the list goes on and on. the spot light in on others never on them!
how about taking some responsibility.
what is their blue print to fix the world?
How are you going to come in terms with other nations and religions without offending, murdering and waging wars......
how long will you hit and run, without considering the damage to yourselves and others.
What have you done except more confusion and misery.
give me a big picture response, i really want to know.

I will try one more time

Mr. ManNaManam

In all of your postings you basically make three points, and I will try to answer them, although I think they have been explained before.
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1- your first point is that, if Islam and in particular Rumi has said everything that is in the Baha’i Faith, why is there a need for this new religion? Well the same question should be asked and is frequently asked by Jewish people about Islam. Most of the teachings of Islam originate from the Jewish faith and even large parts of the Quran are retelling of the stories from the Torah. Why was there a need for Islam, which is a very similar religion to Judaism?
Once you have answered that question, can you also point to me the places in the Masnavi of Rumi where he talks about Equality of men and women, need for universal language, a world without borders etc…, These teachings are unique to the Baha’i faith and differ greatly from Islam.
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We should respect and revere the spiritual station of Rumi, who has and forever will contribute to our understanding of the nature of our existence and God, but each period of human life and evolution requires its own teachings, that why new teachers and prophets appear and repeat much of the same spiritual teachings (spiritual truths are constant) but bring new social teachings that guide mankind to a new stage of civilization. THAT IS WHY THE BAHA’I FAITH HAS COME AFTER ISLAM.
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2-second point that you make is that our prayers and fasting etc are “bizarre rituals”, can you again back this up by showing me which bit is bizarre?
I write here the short obligatory prayer that is normally said once a day, and let yourself and others judge whether it is bizarre:
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“ I bear witness, O my God, that thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth. There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”
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3-Lastly you insist on the conspiracy theories that the Baha’i faith must be a product of the foreign powers because there were sects in other countries at the same time.
Produce one single evidence! For 160 years Iranian government and clergy have tried with all their might and have not succeeded, but will they stop this non-sense?
Islam is full of sects, (Sufism is one), a lot of the clergy would not touch Rumi’s book because it is considered Najes (Untouchable). The Foreign powers did not exist when these sects were formed, were they also created to divide the Muslim community?
Get real, stop this useless accusation or be prepared to back it with evidence!
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From the content of your postings it is obvious that “ManNaManam” (Mr. Roshan Sar from the puppet show?), Mr Sha’er and Mr. Hoseinali are one and the same, why do you find it necessary to change your name all the time?

Regrads
Ramin

To Rosie T.: Come to think about it I can't dance at all

 Come to think about it I can’t dance to doh-seh-doh either, come to think about it I can’t dance to anything.  I am just RHYTHMically dysfunctional (i.e. I am TOO stiff), (except for twist).  

 I like to blare the line that separates reality from irrational, that’s where the satire kicks in.  I noticed Jeesh Daram does the same thing.  Some times you do it too, and you tell me you are the poet.  

 I have been waiting for you to read my latest satire call “Ideological Execution”.  It’s been out for five days now, but you don’t seem to be paying attention.  So here is a hint, go read it and let me know what you think.  Your opinion matters to me immensely. 

 Think about Los Alamos again.  It’s not too far from where I live.