OPINION

Very insightful poem

best

ناتاليا

$64,000 question

A tattoo, nose job, coloring your hair pink are harmless compared to doing drugs or alcoholism.

As far as your date suddenly smokes after weeks of going out or gets a tattoo, well do you think with your head or your heart?

First question to ask yourself and the date is why have you been hiding this side of you and never discussed it? You don't think this was important enough or thought you'd loose me or something? Or are you just nuts?!

Probably s/he is just nuts! So you have to decide if you can live with similar kinds of shenannigans in the futue. Why would you want to live with it? Is it an act of desparation? If it is the nut doesn't care s/he will leave you eventually and you'll be "desparate" again.

Use the odd behaviors as a sign to look elsewhere. Not everything is odd. Many things like laughing funny or snoring or liking the color purple are not odd.

You know what odds are. I asked to give me your examples. I gave the example of getting a tattoo for the first time when you're 50. Nazy gave an example of getting a nose job. Although I don't consider getting a nose job similar to getting a tattoo because you are "supposed" to look better (while different) with a nose job.

Rajab

I think you're right... the discussion veered off into what a married couple might do.

But I'm confused... in the same blog you say that dying your hair, etc. are harmless yet you close it saying that it DOES mean something and should be considered a warning sign.  So there are some mixed signals there.

But if I'm following your train of thought, I offer this scenario.  Let's say I don't smoke myself and prefer a partner that doesn't.  I meet a guy who doesn't smoke (or at least I don't THINK he does).  We become involved and serious.  Then... he starts smoking again (or just picks the habit up).  We're not married, just dating. I'm not happy about his smoking... but I love him at the same time.  What do I do?  Do I end the relationship because I probably would not have gotten involved with him in the first place if I had known he smoked? 

The difference between being married and just dating is that you're hardly going to divorce your husband if he starts smoking.  You've got to find some other compromise or solution.

But you're right... when you're middle-aged and have got a fairly good idea of what you expect in a partner... do you invest more time and emotion into a relationship that has fundamental differences or do you accept that there is no such thing as "perfect" and concentrate on the common issues?

Interesting.

Coloring a sparrow and selling it as a canary

Maybe I am not getting my point across. I remember many years ago during the early days of revolution one of the political potato heads in a party was arguing something.

He went on and on and the more he explained the further people seem to get. So in the end he asked "I don't understand why my point isn't getting across"! (man nemifahmam in mozooeh chera "jaw nemiyofteh" :-) To which one of the guys responsed by saying because it is BS!

So for last time I'll try and hopefully it will jaw miyofteh this time.

Getting a tattoo, doing a nose job, cutting your hair mohawk, coloring your hair pink all and all are harmless.

Furthermore, we are not talking about when you are married and your spouse gets a tattoo, does a nose job or colors the hair pink.

We are talking about when you are "dating" someone and after several outings s/he gets a nose job, gets a tattoo or colors the hair pink. We are talking about a "middle-aged wo/man".

I think most of you have been in that position when your date does something weird or unexpected and that gives you pause and at times you just end the relationship because of it. If you don't you just set yourself up for disappointment later.

Those of us are who are middle-aged are often responsible and are looking for someone to be our partner. At this age we're past a lot of stuff we'd normally look for during our teens and 20s.

So don't fool yourself into saying a tattoo, or nose job or coloring a hair pink out of the blue is nothing really. It's something! It is a warning sign.

Nazy jan

It takes great insight to be able to understand the inner works of other people's minds. I congratulate you for being so observant and so insightful to understand men by listening for the signs and trying to figure out your boys through the years and by what your male friends have shared with you.

I thought a lot about what you are saying here and I realized that although often in similar situations I had never understood men in such depth. Imagination? wow! By the responses from the gentlemen here I realized how true your poem must be to have this positive reaction, a sense of relief from them, that someone finally got it! Kuddos to you my friend. This is yet another item on the list of what I am trying to grasp and learn: deep observation and understanding of what I think is too foreign to me.

I also liked your answers about tattoos, about the silliness of such changes compared to deeper ones like ideology, faith or political views... now that would be a change that would shock one's system.

About the handgun, I'd be terrified, I'd fight for my right to keep myself and my children away from it. You're right, hair color and tattoos are just too non-invasive compared to that. 

I am looking forward to more of your frogs series :0)

IRANdokht

Thank you all and on tattoos

Thank you all so very much for your kind and supportive comments. Heeh! Misery loves company! I am honored so many of you came and visited me for the first time. Please do come back and join the rest of the dialogue, as I don't think we are done yet!

Dear Rajab:

In fact you raise a scenario with which I am somewhat familiar. Going on your proposed scenario, if a man I was dating showed up with a tattoo, in the state of mind in which I live these days, I wouldn't mind at all. I would check it out and make some comment about the way it looks on him and I would let it go. There are so many more important things than a tattoo, which after all, is "art" on someone else's body, something every individual has a basic right to use and abuse as they wish. To continue with your scenario, there are so many other important and urgent changes in a person about which I would care and get concerned.

To finish the tattoo story, though, when my children each showed up separately, sporting tattoos not too long ago, getting over the initial shock and pain only a mother feels at the prospect of the pain my children would have had to endure for the tattoo, I had to remind myself that this was their body, not mine, and my rights over it were only limited to my love for them.

I'll ask you about other scenarios which in my mind are a lot more important. What about when a woman decides to have a nose job? She would never look like she did before. Should a man object or react to that? What about when someone colors his or her hair, bringing a much more drastic change than a simple tattoo? I think none of the physical appearance alterations matter, really.

How about this one? How about if you believe that guns are horrible and that laws must be changed to prohibit gun ownership? How about if you engage in a bit of activism in favor of a handgun ban? Now how about if you realize one day that the man you are living with has gone out and bought a handgun to keep in the same house as you and your children? What would you do? The reason a tattoo wouldn't affect me one bit is that I have had to make a lot more shocking discoveries in a man I loved.

How about if you wake up one day next to someone who holds political, social, and faith-related opinions which he didn't when you first met him and you have to face the bitter realization of living next to a complete stranger? Wouldn't a tattoo appear really silly and insignificant then? Wouldn't you wish that as much as you dislike them, his body would be covered in them but his mind would function and think closer to the vicinity of yours?

I said too much. I hope it didn't bore you my friend. Tattoos are among the most benign "surprises" a mate can bring me, that's my answer.

It is not about pleasing or permission

I was just trying to answer Souri which is another subject all by itself.

The point is, for example you are a middle-aged woman dating a middle-aged man. Your middle-aged man picks you up one night and shows you a tattoo he has just gotten during the day.

What do you say?!

khodeh Naghi

I nominate YOU for the nobel peace prize...:-0

if only all men thought like that.... <sigh>

the reverse can be asked as well..

say I want to get a tatoo... and my husband doesnt want me to.  Who decides the level of committment here, or the sacrifice?  I should put HIS preference ahead of my own for MY body?  Couldn't it also be said that if he cared about MY wants, needs and desires, that he would not object to my tatoo? 

Of course I understand and totally agree with the concept of pleasing my husband.  But no, I won't subscribe to the idea that my partner's happiness with me is more important than my happiness with myself.  Never.  I am then nothing more than his possession.

Compromise is one thing.  Submission is another.

khodeh naghi jan

you write:

 and if we took the initiative to understand what they need: if they need communication, we could learn to get better at it, if they need more attention, we could make an effort 

I write:

 and if we took the initiative to understand what they need: if they need communication, we could learn to get better at it, if they need more attention, we could make an effort 

The only difference is that you are talking about men understanding women and i (i think also nazy jan) talk about women trying to understand men.

I don't talk about understanding each other's habits and acquired needs and wants but i am talking about understanding that we (men and women) are so much alike (probably 99.99999%) and the tiny difference is inborn and is hard wire difference and once we realize that this difference exists and try to understand it then relationship happiness will cover us all.  

Dear bajenagh jaan

You sound exhausted brother! you have tried to make those women understand, and you tried so hard to explain what the right way to communicate with you is... khasteh nabashi!!!

next time try to change yourself and your own views and habits. That's the only thing we have control over: ourselves.

If us men only understood that women are not putty for us to change them in any way we want to make ourselves more comfortable, and if we took the initiative to understand what they need: if they need communication, we could learn to get better at it, if they need more attention, we could make an effort etc... instead of waiting for a lady to actually figure us out and express who we are (instead of us expressing it) then maybe all men could share the nobel prize of something or other too....

right?

;-)

Nazy jan

you write this:

A lesson I have learned through this process is that a man who is not pushed and ordered and demanded to explain and describe and elaborate on his thoughts and feelings, will sometimes do so freely and voluntarily and spontaneously! So in this piece I was stressing the point that men are ruled by their imagination and that there is a rhyme and a reason to the way they do things, even though women cannot always see that order readily. 

i write this: 

i think you should be nominated and win the nobel peace prize for 2008, 2009 and 2010 and every year as long as you are alive which i hope will be another one hundred years. what you have said here is so true and so important for women to understand and if and only if they understand it there will so much peace in the word and there will be smiles on the faces of all men and women every where. 

i have been trying to tell this to women for years but it seems that the brain of women for some strange reasons can not digest this simple fact that you have so nicely written.  it may help women to understand what you have written in english if you could translate it and write it in womanese. then you may also get a nobel prize in literature too.   

god bless you  

That was beautiful, like any

That was beautiful, like any other pieces you have ever written.
Daisy

We the MENNNN

I can hardly believe that a "wman" understood us  nazy's descriptive view of men is very much correct;  I hope others " WPMEN"  could learn  a fraction of wat Nazy described;  Doing so solvs 50% of human problems

Nazy proved that there are women  who can think analytically  and come to a sound conclusion

"Few months later one Friday

"Few months later one Friday night he picks you up and shows you a new tattoo saying look honey, look what I got! Now what do you tell yourself?"

I will tell HIM WTF??!

Level of commitment

Souri level of commitment is very important. If you're just dating someone that person is not under too much obligation to ask for a tattoo.

He can discuss it with his partner and if the partner doesn't approve he'll get it anyway. That is the difference between a committed and a relaxed or startup relationship.

One reason you stay in marriage despite not having home cooked meal and pole dancing every night and not going dancing every weekend is the commitment. Otherwise you'd just pack up your bags and leave!

Besides my point is not about asking, my point is about a middle aged wo/man who does teenage things and tattoo is just an example.

You want a relationship that seems "normal" to "you". A tattoo may not be normal to you but otherwise normal or acceptable to another woman.

I used the tattoo example because most (Iranian) women in their 40s would consider a man getting a tattoo in his 40s something odd.

Now what other odd examples can you say?! Include for both men and women.

Rajab

Usually your ideas are very valuable, like this one. But I don't
agree with your (JJ) example. I believe when a man/woman is attached to someone else, the situation will be completely different, or at least it should be different.

A man who is attached, will ask his partner's opinion before getting a tattoo, or before they subscribe themselves to any other social/personal action.

This is my opinion of what is a real commitment. A heartfelt honest conversation following by an eventual solid compromise if it's necessary.

If I want to get a tattoo and my partner is against, then hell, I won't get it !!
What's more important than my partner happiness with me ? Either I can
convince him or he will convince me. Either way, the main goal is
reaching a mutual happiness together. I'm sure no man would get a tattoo if their object of love does not approve it.

I was watching a TV program last year, a young man complained because he had lots of rings on his penis and his partner gave him an ultimatum of leaving him if he wouldn't get those ring removed ! She said having sex is too painful this way.

The guy said "I love her, I can't live without her, but I can't live without my rings neither...... WHAT can I do ?"!!!!!

So please tell me if this is the kind of LOVE we are looking for ? Who
need a man who put his own physical needs before the emotional needs
of his partner ?

I believe we should first find the meaning of LOVE and our expectation from a relationship before looking for the
ideal man or woman.

Men and women are more similar than different

Nazy your poem is very nice and true. Your comment is an "educated" explanation and does not have the passion and imagination of your poem.

If I were to put both of them together I'd say you view men the same way men view women :-) SOME men and women I should say.

You should not "limit" yourself to what men are perceived to be.

I suppose it is sad but true that (some/most) Men think after marriage their wife will cook for them every night and pole dancing after that and (some/most) women think their husband will take them dancing every weekend.

Imagine an man who is an Engineer by trade becomes friend with a woman who is a writer or artist by trade. They look at problems and solutions differently and this becomes a point of contention and argruments that could take years to overcome or get used to.

Everyone should have a view on what kind of a mate they'd like to have not how wo/men would like to be treated. Sure everyone likes to be treated well and we treat them well but we still end up going separate ways. So it is not just how we treat people it is about a lot of things.

I'd go by the individual and get to know that person and see how their habits, jobs or behavior look to you and how well do you think the 2 of you can get along.

Take JJ as an example. Sorry JJ but I couldn't resist and I hope you don't take this personally, just a joke :-)

How old is JJ, 45, 46? something like that. So you meet this middle aged person who seem charming and in the process he tells you he approves comments for a living!

You ask him what?! He explains more and you don't understand but say to yourself it doesn't really matter he is middle aged like myself and I'd just like him to be normal. So you start dating him and get to know hime better.

Few months later one Friday night he picks you up and shows you a new tattoo saying look honey, look what I got! Now what do you tell yourself?

I know I am bad and should have used an imaginery person. So sue me. I just want to use an example that there are many wo/men who suddenly act so differently than we expect and their behavior should give us signs to move on not try to "talk" it out or "understand" them better.

So keep looking for "your" ideal man not "an" ideal man or a defined man.

As for JJ, it is still good. I'm sure younger women are now more attracted to him. Isn't that right JJ?!

Meaningful and optimistic!

My Dear Nazy,

I truly admire the way your mind works (in such an optimistic way!) You always manage to see the bright side of whatever seems dark, and you always manage to read a real meaning into whatever seems irrelevant.

Now I am going to look at Ghouls, Goblins and dragons through the lens of your imagination (it means with the kind of empathy you carry the world inside you.).

Thank you so much for sharing this lovely poem with us my dear! Keep writing and writing until these frogs transform into handsome princes!

Azarin

nice

Thanks Nazi jan, it is beautiful

Putting men on the couch

I have been told men's heads are screwed on backward, but Nazy's poem gives new meaning to the phrase.

She wishes for men's solidarity, and if that were about to happen soon, yet, by the very act of surrender, she bribes him: "I help reach what you can’t reach alone," a harmonious variety-in-unity.

Only those men who are capable of hearing Nazy's call are capable of experiencing the full glory of humanity. The rest of us are doomed to remain ghosts, letting Nazy to end alone, waiting herself for death, in the desolate image of an empty house. It was in this very empty house where we left Anne Sexton alone, who began to see ghosts of men with ugly features "fat, white bellied men."

These are the same men who, as Marilyn Fyre puts it, have assigned themselves the status of "full persons" minus Nazy's blessing:"I protect where you hurt"--men who enjoy what she calls "unqualified participation in the radical superiority of the species," and withhelding this status from women.

I take Nazy's poem to be, in part, a call for a new being, not for women but for society, a society in which the male-female distinction no longer makes sense.

Nazy Jan

Very nice poetry, but I even prefer your prose here. very nice. Very intuitive. I never thought about men or boys that way. Thanks for sharing your perspective. Chin up.
:)

Why we have to kiss all those frogs!

Dear Feshangi and Souri:

Thank you so much for your kind comments.

As I have mentioned before, I’m no expert on men. The few men I have loved either never stood still long enough, or evaded answering my questions, so I didn’t learn very much from them! I am mother to two young men and I believe that and having male friends have really helped me develop what little I know about men. Since they were toddlers just starting to speak, my sons have taught me how much of a man’s life happens in his imagination. Even when women panic, thinking there is chaos and mayhem all around them, looking at the same situation a man may not agree with that woman, because in his head and in his imagination, many things can exist and co-exist, unaffected by other things. I have borrowed from my observations of my sons, the only males I know who would only sometimes stand still long enough for their mother to look in and ask questions, and my male friends who are just my friends and continue to talk to me honestly and freely about their feelings and thoughts. A lesson I have learned through this process is that a man who is not pushed and ordered and demanded to explain and describe and elaborate on his thoughts and feelings, will sometimes do so freely and voluntarily and spontaneously! So in this piece I was stressing the point that men are ruled by their imagination and that there is a rhyme and a reason to the way they do things, even though women cannot always see that order readily.

To be honest, if men and women could really see and hear and understand each other fully, we would never need to kiss all those frogs, would we?!

Great !

As always, this one is so poetic, yet so true. I especially agree with:

I see more than I say

I feel more than you know

I bear better than you do

I share less than you do

I protect where you hurt

I help reach what you can’t reach alone...

Very nice !

Now we see our men from another angle, trough your great poem...and also trough that great picture above :-)

Nazy jan

Thanks for the expanse of your imagination and your talent of putting your imagination and thoughts into these beautiful words. 

Feshangi