ISRAEL

Ms. Parsi

Pleasure is all mine I promise you beautiful lady.

And thank you too for such an intelligent and logical perspective in utmost civilized manner.

-YT

captain khan

no arguments there at all, and thanks once again for the refreshingly positive attitude. it is encouraging to be able to discuss such a difficult topic from opposing poles without any name calling or anger :)   

Ms. Parsi

All your points are taken, and actually are not new critics. For one, Economics is not an exact science as chemistry or physics might be. You being with the background in Politics can easily relate to this point as you have mentioned.

As with any other none-exact science, for formulas to produce tangible and relatively reliable data certain assumptions must be made. This is true in any other science, even in an exact science as astrophysics.

PPP is nothing BUT a formula to equalize the purchasing power in different countries considering the exchange rate and inflation. It is NOT misleading, since it is to make the numbers more comparable. The reason price of lets say an item such as Big Mac is used, it is not because of its selling price, but because  its PRODUCTION COST can be easily tracked and determined. Big Mac is highly standardized item, in contrast to oil, as you mentioned which does not have an standardized production cost. 

As a matter of fact, main purpose behind using PPP is to eliminate the disparities in production cost. And for the selling price of these items, an standardized profit margin is applied.It is true, PPP is not a forecasting toll and I never claimed it to be. What PPP produces is that IT equalizes the ECONOMIC INDICATORS, i.e. GDP, GDP per capita, sector production comparison, market trends, to be COMPARABLE within the countries, which deal with different monetary systems, inflation rate, workforce education unemployment and such. 

As to your points regarding imperfect market and such, You do have a point when it comes to a commodity such as oil. Oil industry more or less is defined as a monopoly since OPEC controls more than 50% of the world supply. This monopoly exists in few other commodities, but as for other consumer and infrastructure goods monopoly more or less has been abolished. It is true that the market is not 100% perfect as Adam Smith might wish, but it is as close as it has ever come in modern history. 

These certain assumption MUST be made, since market operates in NEAR perfect condition because of the fact that economy has become globalized. Let me put it to you this way. 

One of the reasons Japanese and Korean auto industry has not suffered as much as US and European auto industries is because Japan and Korea, due to scarcity of their resources, have placed into action more efficient and qualitative methods of production. They have reduced the spoilage to near zero, hence streamlining the cost of production. In the other spectrum of production is the  LABOR efficiency, which by enacting more just labor laws, better working conditions, group decision making tools and etc etc, labor force in Japan has become more loyal and much more productive than their counterparts in US.

There is a huge shortfall for economy, more often than not, results of the decisions that are made today, might not show a decade or so later. An economist is not a fortune teller, all we have at our disposal are certain models and disciplines, such as statistics, historical data, and various forecasting models, that have proven to produce relatively desirable result. Basically we work with what we have available. Unlike an astrophysicists, who has Hubble telescope that can be sent BACK to the future, and sent forward to the past[figure this one out to see what I mean], we work with the tools and the models that we have, HOPING that we are right.

Mokhlesim..... ;-)

-YT

good one Darush!

Darush says: "Now, if you ask Farhad Kashani, he will say, the gravity is the reason for other nations resources pouring into US, not US government's misconducts."

That was good and funny Darush. Of course FK doesn't know that Georges Soros the Billionaire also says U.S should stop those wrong policies, misconducts, as you put it.

captain khan

i totally appreciate your time and explanations. it is in fact kind of you to engage with me on this. my background is in political economy, and i throw in basic common sense (i.e. that what i read and hear from various economic sources and positions has to make basic common sense or else i reject it outright).

moreover, economists on the whole do not have a real understanding of economics. take the IMF and World Bank for a start. sincerely, i am simply stating a personal view point.

problems with economics include:

the question of 'externalities' - in essence this results in theorizing in a vacuum and ignoring the real world and real costs.

presuppositions such as 'other things being equal' - well, they never are.

'free markets' - they never are

'efficient markers' - they never are

'ideally...' - automatically false

'market' - a hypothetical notion that is a fundamental component of the most important econometric models

also, another rather simplistic critique (but i think you will
understand what i am trying to say): mcdonalds, like all other MNCs,
practices transfer pricing and there can be major distortions in its
prices at the counter in different countries.

the real economic system in the world is highly political and essentially not 'market based'. take one of the most fundamental of all commodities in the world that drives the bulk of the rest of the economy and prices: the price of oil. nothing is more distorted, militarised and politicised than the market for oil.

so what is presented as economic theory and discourse is concerned with models and theories that deal with the surface rather than the core. symptoms rather than causes. PPP is a price comparison tool, but it does not in any shape or form help us understand whether or not the US economy - or any other economy - is sound.

i hope you get the gist of what i am trying to say (rather incoherently, i know): in a word, i do not have basic trust in what is presented as the science of economics and the great bulk of economic theory.

the current US tubulance is more a reflection of a crumbling trust in its leading institutions than anything else. the amount of corruption, false accounting, valueless 'assets', and gymnastics with 'credit' has hit a critical mass, and a major structural adjustment is necessary to regain that most valuable of all assets: trust.

but economists will say that all is well, and the US can borrow and spend its way out of this mess. perhaps they are right. i doubt it.

Ms. Parsi

With all due respect that is not true.

If you read my comment to anony.111, in calculations of these numbers a formula is used to adjust for all those disparities.

The formula is called PPP[Purchasing Power Parity] to make the numbers comparable.

The purchasing power parity (PPP) theory uses the long-term equilibrium exchange rate of two currencies to equalize their purchasing power. Developed by Gustav Cassel in 1920, it is based on the law of one price: the theory states that, in ideally efficient markets, identical goods should have only one price.

This purchasing power SEM rate equalizes the purchasing power of different currencies
in their home countries for a given basket of goods. Using a PPP basis is arguably more useful when comparing differences in living standards on the whole between nations because PPP takes into account the
relative cost of living and the inflation rates of different countries, rather than just a nominal gross domestic product (GDP) comparison. The best-known and most-used purchasing power parity exchange rate is the Geary-Khamis dollar (the "international dollar").

As a result, for example, by using this method, the same RELATIVE value is assigned to lets say HAIR CUT service in the US and China.  Otherwise, these numbers will never be comparable and always be meaningless.One of the PPP's that is calculated in based on[don't laugh] price of Big Mac. Although french have formulated one of the latest versions based on price of iPod's

For further simplified reading see:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_pari...

As to your point on US economy vs. China, I disagree by saying although US economy is at its lowest points in decades, but it is by far superior and still one of the biggest economies, with Japan in the second place.

The problem with US economy today,  is not the foundation of economy, rather it is Lack of proper regulations and oversight which has caused this huge meltdown. Without going into [who done it], reason can be traced back to DEREGULATION that was placed during the Bush administrations and to some extent during Clinton Administration. China's economy on the other hand, is highy regulated and [interventionist] by the government, use of long term centralized planning.

-YT

P/S Just in case anyone wondering, Macro and Micro Economics are some of the courses that I teach. I say this because I do not want to sound argumentative. ;-) Pooz nemidam

captain khan

problem with services is that their real economic value - as a share of GDP - is subject to interpretation and manipulation. the financial sector in particular has distorted the picture to such an extent that there is little trust in the system any longer. i do not believe that the full story of the economic crisis has been told yet. it is likely that the 'bad loans' reasons given are only a small part of a much bigger problem: that the american economy has been running on foreign deposits and all kinds of trickery to avoid dealing with a single fundamental defect in the accounts: that the US imports and consumes far far more than it can produce/afford.

Ms. Parsi

There are no REAL and UNREAL economic value. Below is the breakdown of the GDP for both countries by sector.

China:

agriculture: 10.6%

industry: 49.2%

services: 40.2% 

USA:

agriculture: 1.2%

industry: 19.6%

services: 79.2%

Marginally I agree with your analysis, however you need to consider one very important economic concept which is called [Relative Efficiency].

Based on this concept, any given country can NOT be self sufficient in regards to production of every and all goods and services. As a result, in past few decades countries have moved to the concept by producing products and services in which they have a relative efficiency compared to other countries. This concept, in layman's language is described as being similar to Division of Labor that is applied in the economic units.

China's economy is  more of industry base because it has relative edge in production costs, i.e. Labor, Raw Material and Capital[factory floor, and real estate].

If US, or any country for that fact, were to produce every item that they import from China and Mexico they can not be competitive because labor and capital costs are much higher in US. As a result, a division of production occurs and countries concentrate on products in which they possess an edge in the production.

Analogy to this will be India and Textile, Iran and Crude Oil, Electronics and Japan, Canada and Auto parts, and finally EU and pharmaceuticals.

As to rest of your points, those are precisely what I have been trying to convey to Anonymous1111 jan.

Regards

-YT

Anonymous111, Captain

the US and China are strongly inter-dependent at the moment, but China has the upper hand partly because its economy is based on real value amassed through production rather than credit. China is also shrewdly undermining US economic hegemony by gradually chipping away at the pole position of the dollar. it is reducing its share of dollar reserves by opting for gold and other world currencies. it is also promoting the idea of a new global reserve currency. this will eventually succeed, and the dollar will crash because of it unless the US manages to rebuild the real value of its economy through production.

it is possible for the US to achieve this especially in cutting edge technologies and renewable energy. the question is whether the US leaders have the foresight to go for it. i doubt this for a number of reasons. first, the US is too proud to realise that it has lost its competitive edge. second, bankers and wall street gamblers have too much of a grip on policy at the expense of industry and real productive sectors. third, the US is one of the most highly indebted nations in the world, and repayment obligations will sap resources for R&D.

wait a sec! what was this blog about again?!

P/S

Anonymous111,

According to your own links , property sales in Guangzhou were up 85.6 percent, and that in Beijing and Shanghai also saw an increase of some 50 percent.

dear lady/sir, this is hardly a sign of ailing economy, wouldn't you say so?

-YT

Anonymous111

Falling housing prices by 1.2% is hardly indicative of an ailing economy, while housing prices fell by double digits in US and EU.

This could very well be a cyclical adjustment in the prices which with 1.2% is well within the normal fluctuation. 

True indicator of economy is NOT 1.2% fall in housing prices, since china experienced close to 6.5% inflation rate in 2008. The true measure of economic health is growth in GDP, which was HEALTHY 6.1% annualized for first half of 2009.

The numbers I have quoted for you are PPP[Purchasing Power Parity], a formula which is used to [normalize] the currency exchange disparities and inflation rate differences in the countries. In another word, the numbers I provided are in spite the Yuan manipulation that China may or may not commit.

-YT

P/S Cyclical fluctuation occurs normally within any economy, which normally cycles out between 5 to 7 years. 

smhb

i obviously gave the wrong impression there. totally agree with you about the persian-islamic mix there, though of course there were many other religious influences too. it's just that many dismiss the nationalist character of the regime, and i was trying to highlight their 'iranianness'. actually, ancient monuments aside, almost everything persian of high artistic value (that i am aware of) has been produced during the islamic period, including the shahnameh whose author was a moderate Shia. i wonder how our diehard royalists cope with that one!

Captain

I was basing my assessment on falling real estate values in China (which was my main contention) and that is, in fact, taking place.  Here's some info.:

//news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-03/11/content_10989155.htm

//en.ce.cn/Industries/Property/200903/11/t20090311_18462424.shtml

//www.nytimes.com/2009/03/11/business/worldbusiness/11yuan.html

So, while China may be the second source of imports for the U.S. as opposed to the first (my information was outdated), China will still suffer a huge loss if U.S. companies lose their purchasing power with respect to China. 

Also, a great deal of China's economic prowess is artificial in light of their currency manipulations.  Here's some info. on that:

//www.forbes.com/2007/05/02/china-currency-trade-biz-wash-cx_bw_0503china.html

//www.epi.org/publications/entry/pm116/

Anonymous111

All due respect, your assessment of china's economy is without any foundation to say the least.

It is true that their first quarter 2009 economic growth[6.1%] has showed a bit of slowdown compared to first quarter of 2008[6.8%], however they remain to be the strongest economy in the times that western economies are facing a meltdown.

China has $2.033 trillion (31 December 2008 est.) reserve in Gold and foreign currencies compared to $70.57 billion (31 December 2007 est.) for US. 

In 2008, China's foreign trade grow at astonishing rate of 18% to $2.8 TRILLION, despite the demand downturn in the second half due to global economic crises. 

Of $2.8 Trillion total export, $337.8 billion [12%] was to U.S. Causing US trade deficit of 266.3 billion. China's other major trade partners are European Union, Japan, Hong Kong and etc.

As you see, US imports only 12% of Chinese products. Their MAJOR and biggest trade partner is EU, and not the US as you mentioned. If China was to CALL the US bonds, at this present situation, US does not have the money to pay her debts.

In contrast to what you said, US's largest import partner is Canada and not China, China is second place after Canada and Mexico is in thirst standing.

Your analogy, am sorry to say, that has NO foundation. Neither US nor EU are in any economic position to be able to exert any demand on China

-YT

SOURCE: CIA Factbook

kouroshS

What niloufar said about democrocy in US is not a contradiction to her other statements.

Democracy and human rights that you see in US today as the result of other races struggle for decades, stops at the US borders and turns into US interest. The reason? As Manucher Avaznia said, plundering other nations resources. Now, if you ask Farhad Kashani, he will say, the gravity is the reason for other nations resources pouring into US, not US government's misconducts.

Niloufar and Captain

Niloufar 

There will be no war between Iran and Israel.  First, Israel will never attack Iran.  See, Israel is a bully, and just like all other bullies, it is what we call in Persian “Zaeef kosh”.  It will never attack a country as strong as Iran.  Plus, Israel knows very well that attacking Iran will not only be fruitless (unless it’s willing to go nuclear—which will never happen for many reasons which I’m sure I don’t need to explain to you), but also it will carry with it a huge set of consequences that Israel will not be able to handle.  Israel’s main effort has been to get the U.S. to act on its behalf, which have so far failed, and will fail in the future. Second, Iran will not attack Israel either.  Contrary to popular belief, and to IRI’s propaganda, the IRI does not really give a rat’s behind about the Palestinians or their cause.  Unfortunately, the Palestinians are the pawns in a silly regional power game between Iran and Israel, and are being used (and abused) by the IRI---just like they have been used and abused for the past 60 years by other regional powers (and power wannabe’s).  Like my mother always says, “khoda kasi ra mohtaj nakoneh”.  So, the IRI will not risk its broader interests (and possibly its survival) by going to war with Israel over the Palestinian cause.  It’s just not that important to it.  In fact, when it comes to its power struggle with Israel, it is much better for it to play this posturing game than to actually do something.  Interestingly, the IRI wants to be the regional imperialist and have a say in all regional issues.  So……so much for it being an anti-imperialist force!    

Captain 

I don’t know about you, but I can’t wait to get my Chinese passport from our new Chinese overlords!!!  Actually, I don’t think that I was wrong in my claims.  While it is true that China is the largest foreign holder of U.S. treasury bonds, the U.S. is the largest importer of Chinese made products.  So, if they carry on with their threats of collapsing the U.S. dollar, the consequence will be that American companies will lose their ability to purchase Chinese products, which will in turn, cause massive industrial and manufacturing chaos in China, which is already suffering from plunging real estate values, etc.  China simply won’t be able to handle that kind of an economic collapse.  Moreover, there is talk in China itself as to whether or not its massive investment in U.S. bonds was actually a good plan given the tell tale signs of looming recession in the U.S. in early to mid-2000’s.  They are really not making a profit on the investment, and could have made much better use of the money elsewhere.  And their threats…well, that all they are…threats, posturing and propoganda to perhaps conceal (and divert attention from) a bad investment. 

I don't think you do

Niloufar

I hate to be dragging this discussion more than we have to, but I need to remind you that if you really believed in these freedoms to exist in the west, you would not have even brought up their lack of respect for the right of life and property, for non-westerners.

We've got to be honest and admit that it is really not easy to point the finger at either party and determine who really is at fault. But,
Unfortunately, such mutual recognition and respect can not be brought about when the iri officials continue with the rediculous rethorics about the holocaust, zionism and so on and so forth. It seems to me that Iran telling them to "get lost" is not exactly a sign of genuine respect and is the underlying and the main reason for the western powers to set preconditions in the first place. SO the iri needs to cool it a little bit as well. let's face it, everytime there are signs that things are really progressing in a positive direction, somehow some iranian official opens his mouth and utters some nonsense and the vicious and non-ending cycle repeats itself.

Niloufar Parsi

Again in agreement but to answer your question as to how they managed for so long against such odds, I have to say that its due to the fact that they have the following characteristics:

Clear understanding of who they are and where they want to go. 

Resolute and brave leadership that does not sacrifice principles.

Clear understanding of who their friends and enemies are and why.

Total self confidence in their ability to accomplish anything they set their sites on.

I do beg to slightly differ on the notion that they derive their identity exclusively from Persian heritage and culture and not from Islam. Actually the two are fused and are undisinguishable. The magnificent contribution of Persians to Islamic art, culture, philosophy, jurisprudence, and etc... is a proud tradition and undeniable source of influence and soft power. The contribultion of Islam to Persian identity, social and cultural cohesion, sense of honor and justice, world view, erfan, and other traditions are too numerous to mention.

As mentioned the two are solidly fused and have become one and the same. Iran is the heart of Islam and Islam is at the heart of Iran's identity. Hence the ridiculous attempt by zionists and colonialists and cultural imperialists in seperating the two and actually weakening Iran. What a futile attempt by a bunch of loosers.

KouroshS

if i remember right, the uranium enrichment suspension was during khatami's period, 2003-2005. it was reversed with the election of ahmadinejad, following bush's rejection of the deal reached between iran and the EU negotiators. i have an old blog here on the subject if you are interested in the details.

in terms of the freedoms in the west, pls don't misunderstand: i fully grasp what you are saying. but iran is iran and the west is the west. we can't just wish them into changing... such changes usually come from within. to me it seems that the west wants iran to follow its example and lead without condition or they won't even hold dialogue. iran tells the west to get lost. what would work better is if each one showed genuine respect and friendship to the other. friends can influence each other positively. enemies just push each other further apart. iran is not the only guilty party here.

Anonymous111

[Even China, which you cite as an example is greatly dependent on the
west, and the U.S. in particular, for its economic survival. ]

Seems like you have got this totally backward. It is west and in particular US that is dependent on China as far as economy is concerned.

China owns $1.33 TRILLION, [that is 1,330,000,000,000 Dollars dude] in reserve and $900 BILLION[$900,000,000,000] US debt. If China was to drop the dollar as the international currency, it would be the end of the US. It is even compared to  full nuclear assault on US.
Now tell me who depends on who?

//www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/markets/2813630...

You have your data all backward. Some reading might be required.

-YT

Lets all hope that China doesn't cut off US from loans, Otherwise we would have to kiss our rear ends good bye. ;-)

Anonymous111

i did not even use the word 'independence' let alone 'define' it. but i won't argue semantics. you are talking about globalisation, and the very reaction to it is in the question of identity. some countries are more malleable than others when it comes to identity, and iran, being among the oldest, is among the hardest to change. that is all i meant.

as for israel, yes i see your point. but then are you not the one stuck in the 60s there? the countries are on the verge of war and your answer is that iran should have nothing to do with israel? flower power? ignore the most violent country in the region while it repeatedly threatens to attack iran? i would say that the provocation is not one-sided.

Niloufar How could they have

Niloufar

How could they have known there would be such rethoric, had they not at least listened to the first few moments of the speech?
You think acting superior and self-righteous in such a context is so obnoxious and unpleasant? How would you Justify IRI's own arrogant and selfish rethoric and "my way or the hightway" mentality?
I am sorry, maybe i am just way too ignorant on this, but to refresh my memory could you please tell me from what year to what year such suspension took place?

West practices democracy in the way that it would benefit all people from all backgrounds, in all those areas. Including israel in the west category is an arbitrary measure. Israel may adhere and follow the guidlines that many western countries set for it, but you can not, in all honesty, label it as actually being part of the west. Like i said, it depends on how you define the term.

Sure we did have poor people before the revolution and sure we do have people with no insurance in USA, but what i was hoping for you to grasp, was that the concept of life in these western countries and how you can pave the way to your porsperity without having a fascistic government breathing down your neck, trying to control every detail aspect of your life. In those countries, you have the option at least, to get back on the horse when you fall off and move on and become something or somebody if you work hard and be smart . You can do that Iran only if you are Super genius or have ties with mollas or know a few haj aghas in your local mosque.

It is interesting that you feel i go overboard with those terms. since i feel that you take the same level of liberty with terms such as "deceived" and "rejected".

Kuroush;

People have left Iran for many many reasons and still are leaving Iran for many reasons.  Some were under prosecution.  A big majority were rootless Gharab-zadeh and lost to the western way of life.  Some, simply, want to live here.  What is wrong with it?  Immigration has been a common practice all along our history.  Iranian communities have immigrated to Africa, Eastern Europe, India, centeral Asia, and Arabian peninsula long time before the Revolution.  

Now, these days some take the wealth that they accumulated thanks to the Islamic Repulbic (at the expense of the ordinary peoples' deeper empoverishment) and bring it where they believe they can safeguard them.  Those who come these days come with money Sir.  Not like your "mokhless" who escaped with his boots or those who were involved in politics. Stil, plenty of these people go back and forth between Iran and West.  You don't believe me; go to any of Iranian embassies to see if it is the most crowded one in the diplomatic community or not.

The term "West and East" originates from the division of the Roman Empire into western and eastern parts that was based upon religious split amont Catholics and Orthodox Churches.  The way that you put, Western hemosphere includes a little bit of western Europe and all Americas.  No one agrees with this and I am not here to argue these.  Nevertheless, my definition of the West is not coming from Iranian studies that you attribute that to certain propaganda.  It comes from Western sources and definitely places that I mentioned, includind New Zealand, constitute Western World. 

Of course, Iranian ruling elite are more open to science and technology.  In the field of stemcel researches they are more open that ruling governments of the US including its president.  They had no problem with the research while Americans have to make up their mind about moral issues.  If not, where these advances came from?  By denying Islamic Republic's huge forward leap we fool ourselves only.  If you are in my age and you lived in Iran at the time, you will remember the sayings of the opposition in early eighties that they would bring down the Regime in six mounths.  Now thirty years has passed and the Regime is stronger than ever and opposition has lost credbility. Do you recall Shah's Generals (Toofanian, Ariayana, and so forth) and their so-called liberation armies around the Iranian borders?  I very well remember Sir.

I am against this concept that anything that sound like Asian or the east is necessarily bad and backward.  Regarding the Western World's interests, as I said before, it is based upon plundering other nations' resources.  As I see, according to your definition, Iraqi people is enjoying US support; and not her bombs and occupation.  Over a million of Iraqi refugees in Syria and other Arab countries are the a  part of American suppor.  Even American people do not  believe in what you advocate.  Do you remember depleted uranium and occupation Sir?  These are the values that they are obligated to uphold for their companies.  People like Shah are just helpless pawns serving imperialists' interests and nothing else.   

All the best to you.  I hope you are not promising that within few months, like Mr. Hakhaa, you will travel to Iran and with magic power bring down the whole system and within three months establish the most liberal and prosprous country to become the envy of the world. 

No more words 

Niloufar

Today's world is much more complicated and intertwined than the 1960's where you seem to be stuck in.  The kind of "independence" that you advocate is a 1950's and 1960's radical socialist / isolationist, Che Gueverra style of "independence" that has no place in the global economy and social structure of the 21st century.  Even China, which you cite as an example is greatly dependent on the west, and the U.S. in particular, for its economic survival.  There really are no "independent" nations left in today's flat world, at least not "independent" in the way that you define the word. 

True "independence" as you define it should mean economic independence and self sufficiency, more so than political and military independence.  But I guess you're just too militant to conceptualize this dynamic.  What good is political independence if your people starve to death if other countries decide to cut off trade with you?!!

Lastly, as far as Israel is concerned, as I have always said, Israel is an apartheid, criminal regime.  That being said, however, it should not be the focal point of Iran's foreign policy.   

KouroshS

on the walk out being prearranged, a report in the Independent states:

The UK's ambassador to the UN in Geneva, Peter Gooderham, rather gave
the game away when he said afterwards: "As soon as President
Ahmadinejad started talking about Israel, that was the cue for us to
walk out. We agreed in advance that if there was any such rhetoric
there would be no tolerance for it." 

i would call that 'apartheid denial'.

on preconditions: when the west sets preconditions for talks, it automatically undermines dialogue by acting superior and self-righteous. it is not unreasonable to refuse preconditions. also, iran suspended its nuclear enrichment programme for some years and engaged in dialogue and ended up being deceived and rejected despite agreements reached with the EU negotiators.

i didn't say the west was 'just plain wrong'. i said it is wrong 'sometimes'. the west is right in how it practices democracy, but some western countries display alarming disregard for the right to life, property and liberty of non-westerners. they (e.g. US, UK & israel) look rather chauvenistic.

israel is totally a part of the west. and no i was not just talking about israel.

as for conditions in iran being improved for 'EVERYONE and not just a selected few', i am confused by your reasoning. do you have no poor people in the US? i hear around 50 million americans have no health insurance. did we have no poor people in iran pre-1979? what do you mean?

finally, i think you take too much liberty with vague terms like 'never', 'always' and 'hatred'. but that is just my opinion.

Peace!

No one said Iran is

No one said Iran is independent. Iran is trying to become independent and has advanced in many aspects toward independence despite all the hardship, pressure and problems that she has been facing in the past 30 years. That is a fact not fiction. However, on the other hand she lacks the whole purpose for advancing, which should be better life for all Iranians. This can be blamed on political systems first and the economy second. As these two have direct affect on human rights and they should be corrected with the right approach.

Anonymous111

you sound quite upset about this all. there is no need to get angry, and i certainly do not claim to have the answers but i do want to search for the answers - with you if you permit.

now for india: yes, you are right, but i left her out partly because india was not a truly unified nation in ancient times with a centralised administration as far as i know. the closest they got to that was under moghul rule, which was essentially muslim-persian rule (with persian as the official language of the court) from the 16th century onwards until Nader Shah and the Brits destroyed them. and if you read what i wrote before again, you will see that i was talking about unified, strong states that would not tolerate invasions for any significant period of time. india was the opposite of that: always being invaded and absorbing the invading culture. that to me puts them in a different category from iran and china that had far older centralised states, and a much stronger sense of national identity.

my suggestion is that peaceful, permeable and diversified cultures are more prone to democratization. it is just a theory.

A great movie relating to the establishment of the Moghul empire was released not long ago. it is called Jodhaa Akbar, and despite the story being about a great muslim leader and his (fictitious) love affair 5 centuries ago, i found it very uplifting compared to our current sorry state of sectarianism. we really could do with more Akbars...

it also has one of the most beautiful and mesmerizing sufi songs i have ever heard. pls check it out:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPbM55RWad0

Manouchehr

I respectfully disagree and like i said international relations are a two-sided deal. You sound like a "Motaseb" person trying to ram a concept down one's throat by mixing things up. It is not about the power that the western democracies are capable of exerting as it is about the intelligence of the less powerful country against accepting all that imposition. It can be dealth with and it does not have to be tolerated to the point that it leades to a intentionally imposed hatred against Many western powers.

YOu are misquoting me Yet again. we were not talking about one country declaring war on another or invading it. That is totally different. Iraq has always been enjoying a good and suportive relation with the U.S. And the fact that IRI mistreats iranians is a totally internal matter!I am going to say this again for the last time:( U.S. or any power in the world Does have any OBLIGATION to uphold any values in any country. The U.N. is as you said plays Multiple roles as a supposedly a supportive medium for all the nations and not necessarily to legitimize wars or hold bigger countries to uphold any values. Exactly where are you going with this argument?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you for real? The innovation and the atmosphere to create it was not provided under the shah? Are you just waking up form a long sleep or what? Yes, indeed miracles have been performed, But all thanks to the solid foundation that was laid during the shah. Every single manufacturing Unit that was built in iran was done under the shah.

YOu have got it backwards. The regime allowed its nOoche and noore chesmis to get that education in the west or the east or any other Kharab shode, with all the financial support that shah had made available for his Servants, while prohibiting the majority of young people to leave Iran. Of course that was the case within the first 10 years of the revolution. Does this mean to you that they are open to science and Technology? Now, of course they are begging for all to come back, since the mess of a lack of economic opportunities that they have created has prompted all to leave in illegal ways, leading to a brain drain.

West is what it is! It is usually used to refer to the "Western hemisphere" countries, Based on their economic and financial powers. hence mostly western european countries are in that category, in addition to US and canada.
Japan, India, Australia, have their own rankings.
West can not be a socio economic concept since it is geographical by its very nature and meaning of the word.

Niloufar - You Are Wrong...

In your zeal to justify and elevate IRI to the level of something that it is not, you made another huge boo boo.  Here you say:

"only 2 ancient nations have truly managed and survived with this approach: iran and china. neither is a democracy."

Really?!!  What about India?  You know...the subcontinent with a billion people.  Surely you have heard of it .....working for the UN and all (or some other international organization).   Countries can be both independent and democratic.  Even if India wasn't there, what are you trying to pursuade us to do?  Accept IRI's "independence" and just STFU about its oppressive and dictarorial nature?!!!

Incidentally, the IRI is far less "independent" than its propagandists such as yourself want us to believe.  This whole dog and pony show that they saturate the media with (in a very savvy way I may add) may fool the domestic audience and those who have drank the cool aid, but it won’t fool the truly independent minded.  IRI is so dependent on foreign help that---for example--- the whole country will literally shut down if other countries refuse to sell Iran refined petroleum products.  Iran imports most of its refined petroleum needs.  And that is in a country that you say “happens to sit on more oil and gas than is good for us”.  And this is just one example.  Let’s not even get to agricultural products (such as Iranians main food staple, rice, etc.). So, next time you want to be IRI’s spokesperson please rent a hall at “Sharif University’ (be awed at first) and then give a speech about is accomplishments!! We here know what the deal is and don't want to read propoganda.

Niloufar Jaan;

Thank you for the clip.  There are way more than these in Iran, but we have been so much concerned with human rights and political issues that we have practically blinded ourselves to these.  If that land is so much kept backward, why the West fears it?  The whole fear stems from the fact that Iran is becoming an example for the developing nations to follow.  Of course, this will pose a serious challenge to the Western hegemony on the globe.

Regards