SOLUTION

Other benefits of citizenship plus a stupid question

Well I've favored one state solution since Sabra and Shatila in 1982. I am against all religious states and I think it is unhealthy for the Jewish people to live in one even if it is not the current nightmare of constant fighting. We have been marginalized and ghettoized enough. We shouldn't do it to ourselves. Anyway two-state solution is impossible now due to Swiss Cheese factor of current Palestinian geography. IF thee were two state solution one of two scenarios would happen because Israel would control transport and major resources including water:

1) Israel would be unequitable and Palestine would retaliate and Israel would crush and nothing would change, vicious circle ad infinitum. or

2) If Israel were equitable it is such a tiny place that area and with all the traveling through it together and sharing of infrastructure and resources and the Palestinians going back to work in Israel like they used to first it would become like a little EU and eventually people over time would be like this is really stupid, it would be de facto one state already. Not saying it would be a bed of roses before getting to that point, just saying two state solution would ultimately either be SO unsuccessful that nothing would change or so successful that there would be de facto one state over time.

Anyway that's my dream vision, the latter. Be that as it may here comes the stupid question...returning to the current voices of "realism"...so...

as the Zionists asked below, why doesn't Jordan, if major population is Palestinian, incorporate the one area and Egypt the other if they administered it previously, with help of foreign aid (should be American because they have been bankrolling Israel's very existence for decades). Not saying this SHOULD happen, just saying, why is it not an option on the table? Is this a stupid question and if so why is it a stupid question? Seriously.

Another way of putting it I guess is the often mentioned remark of Zionists that is why doesn't the Arab world want to help the Palestinians? (Doesn't matter by what treaty Egypt is "llowed" to administer Gaza, treaties are paper, they are constantly rewritten). I know Egypt just had to turn back the refugees, they couldn't handle the influx, but with aid they could. All these billions going to Israel anyway and for what? Nothing is working. There could be US aid, there could be Saudi aid, and more. Something very fishy going on here. Does the whole world have a death wish?

If Hamas stopped fighting, this would happen anyway

Most Israelis, like most people of anywhere, want a modern and evolved society. If Hamas wasn't fighting them, they themselves, on their own, with no help from anyone, would soon realize that religious discrimination must go! These belong to the previous century.The whole country would split into at least two groups, one wanting the forcing of religious belief on everyone and the other wanting religious freedom. Nobody needs to do anything about it - it is inevitable. Just look at how it happened in the US and other modern countries. An individual from the same people who were brought to the US for slavery is now running the country. That's the power of evolution and progress. It proves that most Americans were not racist, even if racism took over America for a while. But the solution is evolution and not revolution. Revolution/war only takes us backwards (with the fake hope of future forward progress).

Part of the irony about the birth rate is that

over past two decades according to UN birth rate in Arab countries has fully halved to under four children per family, due to education and implementation of family planning. IF Palestinians WERE given citizenship including full benefit of Israeli modern education, technology etc., with intensive effort and incentives (such as in China) for low birth rate within one generation it could be easily halved again and that is two children per family, which is ZPG (zero population growth).

Rosie from Irony City

I like the sentiment

Root of the Problem

Zionist movement, from the beginning, looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the indigenous Arab population so that Israel could be a wholly Jewish state, or as much as was possible. Land bought by the Jewish National
Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs [a situation which continues to the present].

The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists’ intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land
buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. Because of this opposition, the
entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the population of
Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)

In short, Zionism was based on a faulty, colonialist world view that the rights of the indigenous inhabitants didn’t matter. The Arabs’ opposition to Zionism wasn’t based on Antisemitism but rather on a totally reasonable fear of the dispossession of their people.

” Mahatma Gandhi, quoted in “A Land of Two Peoples” ed. Mendes-Flohr.

“Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the
Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A
religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs...
As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.”

Regardless of public propaganda by Israel, regarding so called [co-existence] of Arab and Israeli's, Ben-Gurion clearly wanted as few Arab as possible to remain in Jewish land.  According to Israel historian, Benny Morris, “Righteous Victims.”‘With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement)...I support compulsory transfer. I don’t see anything immoral in it,’

Simha Flapan,  in “The Birth of Israel" states [That Ben-Gurion’s ultimate aim was to evacuate as much of the Arab population as possible[Ethnic Cleansing] from the Jewish state can hardly be doubted, if only from the variety of means he employed to achieve his purpose...most decisively, the destruction of whole villages and the eviction of their inhabitants...even if they had not participated in the war and had stayed in Israel hoping to live in peace and equality, as promised in the Declaration of Independence.]

The Jewish military advantage was translated into an act of mass expulsion of more than half of the Palestinian population. The Israeli
forces, apart from rare exceptions, expelled the Palestinians from every village and town they occupied. In some cases, this expulsion was accompanied by massacres [of civilians] as was the case in Lydda,
Ramleh, Dawimiyya, Sa’sa, Ein Zietun and other places. Expulsion also was accompanied by rape, looting and confiscation [of Palestinian land and property]...

Asides from these historical fact, Jews have effectively used [Victim Card] as means of political gain.

Rabbi Mayer Schiller, quoted in “Issues of the American Council for Judaism,” Summer 1998, [Jewish proponents of the ‘victim’ card are aware not only of its social effectiveness but of its usefulness as a means of insuring Jewish solidarity and, hence, survival. If we were forever hated by all and are doomed to be forever hated by all, then we’d best stick together and make the best of it...Personally, I have never found this view of the eternally-hating gentile to have any resemblance with reality. It seems a myth, pure and simple, and an ugly one at that.
“Is it a good means of social control? Perhaps, but at what cost? It strips the faith and history of Jew and gentile alike of all but their months of antagonism. It wallows in evil imagery and postulates a forever morally superior Jew, victimized by the forever morally inferior ‘goy’..I have spent most of my adult life among Hasidic Jews,
almost all of whom were Holocaust survivors, and I’ve heard almost nothing of the of the relentless harping on victimology and our need to forever memorialize it...(Victimology) allows Jews to bypass their own faith and offers the national allegiance of Holocaust/Israel in its place.]

So I ask,,,,, what was the question?????????

Repectfully

capt_ayhab [-YT]

re; You people don't know

'what else is ne' says:
"PLAIN AND SIMPLE EVERY COUNTRY HAS A RIGHT TO PROTECT ITS SOVERIEGNTY

I think you are right to the point. There is only one tiny fact you carefully like to disregard:

The country belongs to palestinians of muslim, jewish and christian locals. Zionists come and by force and racistically want to cleanse muslims out. They literally kick out the innocent people out of their home (or literally flatten it on the head of residents) and then build homes for occumpiers and call it their promised land. They carelessly ignore even their own religion (zionists not true jewish folks) the factthat God damns them and forbids them coming back to this land.

I really think you are right, people of the land has to defend their home and country legitimately.

Invaders and illegitimate occupiers are always damned to face justice.

Expansionist racism vs. ethnic racism

Inherent racism, one of the characteristics of the traditional European societies, appears to be on its last leg in America. Especially since Obama is elected, many Americans take pride in the fact that their society has taken the biggest stride in shedding the image of a racist society for an ethnically diverse and tolerant one.

Indeed, America has for a long time shed the ethnic racism for a more lucrative and sophisticated one, that is, expansionist racism. Emergence of the notion of Manifest Destiny did not leave any room for infighting amongst the expansionists of 19th century. Hence a targeted ethnic cleansing of the indigenous Native American (Indian) tribes, who at the time were seen as the main obstacle to its realization, required participation of Americans of various ethnicities and creeds to eliminate the common SAVAGE enemy.

Henceforth, this set a pivotal precedence for the American expansionist foreign policy ever since. Today, one's ethnicity (white, black, Hispanic, oriental...) makes little difference in determining one’s Americanness. So long as he/she loves apple pies, celebrates 4th of July and does not question why he/she or their offspring have to go to far off lands to kill the "enemy" and "defend their country!"

Similarly, Israel, to further its own version of Manifest Destiny (i.e. Zionist expansionism) has prioritized its main target as ethnic cleansing of the indigenous inhabitants of the land, i.e. Palestinians. Hence, Israel's version of apple pie and 4th of July that is epitomized in Zionism, sees no alternative but to shed the ethnic racism for the a systematic one and genocide against the main obstacle, that is the Palestinian population. In other words, it makes little difference whether you are white, black, Sephardic, Ashkenazi, Jew, half-Jew, quarter-Jew, a convert or a Zionist Christian... So long as you are prepared to kill the SAVAGE enemy to free the "Promised Land," you are on Israel's side!

Israel already has problems with the arabs that are citizens

//news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20090122/cm_csm/yglucr...

[sigh]

An identity that accepts converts from among all people can't be racist. An group of people that understand themselves as an ever growing family, with all people welcome to join and be a part of the family tree is not racist. A state for this group of people, for this family has nothing to do with racism. Let alone the fact that millions of non-Jews, Arabs, Druz and so on have been living in that state as full citizens since its inception. How many times is such a simple fact being deliberately ignored to preach more hate against this people here? It's like being in a dump of broken records... .

Too much racism for this solution to work

It's not acceptable to Israel of course, mainly for racist reasons.

They didn't just spend 60 years driving away the native inhabitants just so they can invite them all back with roses!

Never gonna happen. That's why there can't be a real democracy, because there is a possiblity of Arab majority hence a "threat" to Zionist "manhood".

What if there be no Palestinians

I see only one way out of this dilemma for Israel. Israel should, some how eliminate all the Palestinians living in West Bank and Gaza and finish the century old problem once for all. They can use poison or atomic bomb with some sort of covert operation that blame on Israel be minimum. After killing all Palestinians, then Israel will annex west bank and Gaza. Next would be to kill all Iranians, maybe ½ of Arabs, and let’s not forget all those Germans. Oh yes Russians too, and those bad east Europeans too. Then there would be a long peace for all Israelis to enjoy life and prosperity.

You people don't know

You people don't know anything currently Israel has a an over 20% population of what they call themselves Palestinian Citizens of Israel, and Israeli Citizens and or Israeli Arabs..
Nice thought, it has been offered and many of these people love Israel and have no desire to go back.
Israel is a democractic country, you people are so brainwashed against Israel you don't know anything but to hate Israel and jump up and down and demand they treat the Palestinians better, why don't you step out of your closets open your mind and learn about the reality of Israel the history time and events.
They are attacking their country they have a right to protect themselves PLAIN AND SIMPLE EVERY COUNTRY HAS A RIGHT TO PROTECT ITS SOVERIEGNTY
So the arguments of over force is BS is someone shoots at me and misses and then I shoot back and kill him I'm wrong?

re:Flawed argument

Bijan jan,
Babam jan never say never again. Read history. Anything is possible, especially if it is the will of goad

Flawed indeed

As Bijan rightly reminded you, there are no settlers in Gaza anymore, and Israel has already made the offer to evacuate most of the settlements in West bank (and trade Israeli territory for the few parts in West Bank where the Jewish communities are already deeply established. There is no reason why the same kind of deal can't be made with Jordan, instead of a "palestinian authority". )

'Israel has marched in their land and taken it...'

Who exactly are "they"? "Whose" land has been marched into by Israel? Egypt? Jordan? Who? There never was a separate "palestinian" state, don't you get it? The status of these lands is not determined, they are negotiable. This is a fact. There was no demarcation between the arabs living in the general region known by Europeans as "palestine", it included parts of todays egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria as well as the state of Israel. There was no "palestinian" arabs separate from Egyptian arabs or Jordanian arabs or Lebanese arabs or Syrian arabs. Arabs (general) fought Israel for this entire region known as "Palestine" because they considered it arab land, all of it. These new "palestinians" are arabs who were refused by states like Egypt and Jordan and Lebanon deliberately and artificially and denied equal citizenship with other arabs, their own clan and neighbors in many cases. They are those who were artificially kept in "camps" to prevent their natural assimilation with the rest of the arabs of that region, the ones whose residence happened to fall within the borders of all these new arab nation states. Arab lands and Israel fought, Israel won and took over parts of the territory whose legal status is still unspecified. Now the talk is to create a new separate state (ie. separate from Egypt and Jordan an other arabs states) which is going to be christened as the state of "palestine" if and when it is established.

So I ask again, why is it Israel's duty to assimilate these people? Why is it that states like Jordan can get away with massacre of these arabs, or like Egypt get away with closing their borders on them? Why isn't the location of their borders imply that they having "stolen" these "palestinian" arabs' lands in order to expand the "Jordanian" arabs or "Egyptian" arab territories? Why should resolution of their status be all Israel's burden?

Do you finally get it?

The Iron Wall scheme

Dear eroonman, that will never happen, for that Way, Israel will be demographically overwhelmed by the Palestinian population and lose its Jewish supremacy! What is Israel doing is the continuation of a Zionist grand scheme called The Iron Wall, which was kick-started by the non-stop expansion of settlements and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from what is now known as Israel to the Gaza Strip during the 1940s.

Israel's main plan is to build as many settlements in the West Bank so to make the notion of Palestinian sovereignty impossible, hence the notion of a virtual Iron Wall entrapping the population of Palestine! Indeed, Israel's trading of Gaza Strip for more settlements in the Zionist Jewel, the West Bank is, was in light of the said scheme. What Sharron and his accomplices had planned was that by evacuating the 50 or so settlements (which only housed 7500 settlers) on the one hand, and increasing the settlement buildings in West Bank on the other, Israel would appear as the peaceful party -- who unilaterally pulled out of Gaza due to frustration from Hamas's bellicosity -- while adding 13000 Jewish settlers in WB at the very same time!

Meanwhile by sealing the borders to Gaza, withholding the tariffs and duties collected form Gazans and targeted assassination of Hamas leaders, Israel rightly counted on Hamas's retaliatory rocket fires which would provide the perfect excuse for Israelis to justify the occupation and settlement buildings in the WB. As parroted by Zionists around the world: "Israel unilaterally pulled out of Gaza and dragged every settler out of there with force. What they got in return was Hamas (supported by 80+% of palestinians. In other words, what they got in return for forcing the settlers out of their home, was to give voice to 80+% of palestinian women and children to destroy Israel" and argued by our friend, Bijan A M, below!

Ultimately, what Israel is after is iron walling any future Palestinian entities, separated and discontinued by Jewish settlements, within the Israel authority. This would constitute a bunch of enclaves of scattered Palestinian lands, each smaller than Gaza and including Gaza, who enjoy a semi-autonomy in their internal affairs, while Israel is in control of their land, air space and borders!

However the main question still remains as to: Why didn't Israel evacuate the WB settlement? Or better yet, an easier question to answer, why doesn't Israel stop the settlement expansions in WB? WB is not run by Hamas! Maybe that's the problem!

//haaretz.com/hasen/spag

//haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1045787.html

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said Thursday that the creation of a Palestinian state would serve as a solution to national aspirations of Israel's Arab citizens.

"Once a Palestinian state is established, I can come to the Palestinian citizens, whom we call Israeli Arabs, and say to them 'you are citizens with equal rights, but the national solution for you is elsewhere,'" Livni was quoted by Army Radio as saying to students at a Tel Aviv high school"... "It must be clear to everyone that the State of Israel is a national homeland for the Jewish people."

Straight from the horse's mouse.

dream, dream baby....

Your solution sounds so sane and possible except it can only be possible in a dream.

Since the attack on Gaza I've met many wise Jews, they are peaceful, calm and compassionate. It felt like being among the friends.
They tell you they don't like Hamas but they declare:
"The settlers are the problem, the right wingers are the problem, Zionist Christians/born again are the problem". And I agree with them.

You may ask why the notion of Palestinians and Israeli Jews living as citizens of the same country resembles a dream?
The answer is obvious: Jewish population of Israel doesn't want to share, share the political power and the resources. Israeli Jews are used to RECEIVING and not GIVING.

Flawed argument

Irandokht and her followers will try to blame the bloodshed on Israeli settlements. Implying that there could have been a peace in the region if it wasn't for Israeli settlements. What a bunch of nonesense garbage.

Isreal unilaterally pulled out of Gaza and dragged every settler out of there with force. What they got in return was Hamas (supported by 80+% of palestinians. In other words, what they got in return for forcing the settlers out of their home, was to give voice to 80+% of palestinian women and children to destroy Israel. But, my dear ID that will never happen. Be it palestinians, Hamas, Al-queda, Hezbollah,....or IRI, they will never ever be able to destroy Israel. Mark my words. Keep this in mind next time you post your comment.  

any jew anywhere in the

any jew anywhere in the world is automatic isreal citizen , but not people who borned there ..maybe because according to TALMUD none jews are not even human so only choosen ones can get isreali passport

moderator , please do not ban my post for this :

www.realjewnews.com
www.rense.com

then you know what to expect , yesterday dennis ross was pointed by obama to deal with iran , this are sign of things to come ..

Obama Increases Abortions

TO ALL LIBERALS

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm1KOBMg1Y8

Please take a little time to look at this 30 second clip. I am interested to know your opinions regarding it. I view it as a clear outline of the Iranian regime and how B. Hussein Obama will treat it differently than President Bush has.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhH2q6h7_Ow

Are these quotes representative of Sen. Barack Obama?
If they are, do you support these views?

Whatever you think of this video, it is a clear example of how Sen. McCain would have had an offensive foreign policy platform, similar to President Bush's, as opposed to Obama's defensive one.

In my opinion this is what B. Hussein Obama believes. I disagree with him, and I disagree strongly, but I will not insult him. Many people, including myself, view him as under-qualified to be president. Especially when taking his 'present' votes in the IL state senate into account. He is a respectable human being, especially because he admitted his mistakes on the O'Reilly Factor, but so did Senator McCain. Sen. Obama's social policies are very out-of-touch with the rest of us living in America who are pro-life and anti-gay marriage. Obama opposed something similar to the Born Alive Infants Act in the IL State Senate. Also, Obama opposed the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban that President Bush supported and proudly passed. Obama is for the radical redefining of marriage. I just hope Obama will not go through with his promise of ending President Bush's prodigious tax-cuts and taxing loopholes such as cell phone taxes and internet taxes. B. Husein Obama will not be able to keep the low inflation and HIGH GDP growth rates of the Bush years.

My final message:
Thank You President Bush

Vote Huckabee 2012

P.S. : In case you have time, these two clips are also excellent.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-95wkCMeUkk
www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9J3dQ-L4Xs

www.zcommunications.org/znet/

www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/20316

One zionist say give palestinians israel citizenship and the other wishes gaza and westbank become part of other countries. Basically, they want desperately get out of this nazi-like situation that holocaust survivors have created for poor people of the land.

You are both MERELY out of your mind, time and place. you will MERELY see there exist another option that is to MERELY return the land to the true owners: muslims, jews and christians. Zionists are MERELY causing all the trouble for true occupants of palestine. The only way to have a long lasting peace is MERELY to get rid of zionist idealogy in government and let the land be governed by people who will respect all three religions.

Eeronman very well written article! thank you!

Zion is right, I also think Gaza and West bank could be "absorbed" by the neighboring countries too. But... wait a minute... what would they do to the illegal settlers in those areas?

What do you think they should do to them?
I bet Egypt and Jordan wouldn't appreciate a bunch of illegal squatters with guns shooting at their citizens.

Zion you ask why is it Israel's "duty" to assimilate them?

It's Israeli's duty to let them live in their own land and own their own homes and farms.

It's Israel's duty to take back the settlements they took illegally.

It's Israel's duty to treat people like human beings.

Israel has marched in their land and taken it, bulldozed their homes and farms and destroyed their lives.

Do you really not get it?

IRANdokht

Israel is not a Jewish State - it is a rich boy's club

If you pay attention to Israel lovers on this site, you can see that most of them don't give a hoot about the Jewish religion. They just use that as a bonding mechanism, for the filthy rich. For example, zion has on many occasion stated ideas that are clearly not Jewish. In fact they even say it that they want a democracy similar to US. Well, guess what, the American are not so interested in religion in the way Israel or IRI is. Religion ans state are quite separate. So even if Israel continues the way of violence and force, ate the end they get a non-religious regime anyway. Their kids and grand kids will simply laugh at the idea of mixing religion and government. Look at the US today? Do you see a white race, as it started to be? Do you see a Christian nation, as it started to be? No. the Mexicans have pretty much recaptured all the stolen land and all kinds of races and religions now live here. You cannot mix modernity/democracy with a religious state. It is not possible at all. And those who apparently support a "Jewish state" are in reality trying to keep their money separate. Jewish thing is a falsehood. none of them really believes in it as a religion - it's just a rich boy's club that they don't want to share with others.

This is the most sane and simple explanation - well done

And as our avid Israel supporter Zion didn't waste any time to indicate, Israel doesn't care about its neighbors or their human rights or anything like that. They don't even need to immediately give everyone Israeli passport. If they were smart at all, they would start extending a hand of friendship to the people in West Bank, since that part is not fighting them. But they DON"T CARE. They see their neighbors as hassle and possibly sub-humans. Just read their comments.

I have a better plan

Here is a much better and much more pragmatic resolution on your line. Why doesn't Egypt annex Gaza and Jordan take the West Bank? Then the "palestinians" can live, as new citizens, among their lovely arab brothers that they "love" so dearly and who "love" them back. Why is it only Israel's duty to "assimilate" them? Why not ask it from those two states?

From one smart-ass Iranian

From one smart-ass Iranian to another who finds it easier to solve everybody else’s problem than their own. I should point out that going back from “two states” to “one state” solution has been mulled over by the pundits before, too. Remember this is an old problem that the most important politicians in the world have been trying to find a solution for, for the last 60 years.

One state solution would work only if it was a secular democratic state, separation of church and state.

Hamas would not go for it. Since, Hams just like their sponsor Islamic Republic of Iran is a religious fundamentalist dictatorship. Religion is their bread and butter. They have no legitimacy without the religion that they push.

Israel would not go for it. Since, Israeli aspiration is a democratic Jewish state. They do not want to govern more Palestinians than they already do, namely the current Israeli Palestinians. Since, that would make majority of Israeli citizens Palestinian.

Absolute joy to read

You have a way with words. Enjoyed it very much, thank you.

Sorry, my laundry needs cleaning...

"Zionism is about a Jewish state for Jews. Arabs should find their identity somewhere else."

Ive talked with a couple Israelis about this, This is the answer you will get from any Israeli about your solution, unless if you meet the more modern left oriented ones that are in a minority sadly.

The ironic part is that our children in their late 40's will witness Israel fall down as it is today because of Arab uprising inside the country -> social unrest, class difference, demographics etc.. Going to war and calling for Israels destruction is not necessary, Jewish supremacy inside that country and Tel Aviv is good at doing that alone.

They should just create a secular state together, let the Arab refuges return while at the same time chartering the new nation to be a home for all international Jews, a safe haven, and find a new name for the nation, and be a pride example to the world: Race, religion, background means nothing.

But that would turn Ariel Sharon and his rats of today turn in their graves.