ELECTION

Parham Jaan Your welcome

Lets Hope she won't change her mind by Friday ...

Darius

Thanks for the link on Ebadi's decision. The interesting part is so far, all the "voters" were claiming she will participate!

If you MUST, then vote for Mahmoud

For once, I brought myself to actually read one of Ms Sabety' s pieces in full. On this site, I am on the record to have opposed this election from early on and in principle I remain unmoved by all the opposing arguments so far. But now I am prepared to make a little concession. If you are absolutely compelled to vote in this election, do yourself a favor and vote for the true face of the regime: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Why I say do yourself a favor? Because only Ahmadinejad is reminding you what this regime is and that revolution was all about, whereas, the other three try to make you believe that their ideals are different from the initial ideals of their founding father, the big Kh.

In voting for Ahmadinejad you will never be disappointed because there are no false promises to be disappointed about.

Ms Sabety, thanks for the inspiration.

FR

FYI/Shirin Ebadi Boycotts Elections (Radio Zamaneh)

گفت‌وگوی روزنامه آلمانی «واتس» با خانم شیرین عبادی

«در انتخابات ریاست جمهوری شرکت نمی‌کنم»

we're not a colony anymore

sometimes i feel like i'm more ashamed of all iranians around the world with no sense of pride whatsover, than whatever goes on at mullah camp. what's with all this talk of "westernized" this and "westernized" that? you can call yourself proud all you want, but at the end of the day it's just another iranian with some serious complex issues. of course, it's no surpirse to see some of this westerner-versus-savage-descriptions when the author is from the states. sorry about the generalisation but i'm really sick of dealing with the outdated ideas and total ignorance coming from a country with such a grand self-image. but what difference does it make. one of these days this for-the-"unwesternized"-iranians-hard-to-grasp-concept of freedom will come down over tehran in the shape of another american missile. god bless america and the united people of we're-not-arabs!-and-if-we-work-real-hard-we-can-be-just-like-you. ps don't hate me because i'm not as light-skinned as you.

Thanks hamsade ghadimi

Interesting.

I recall how Gobtzadeh at the time started criticizing the way the Revolution had turned against the ideals it defended and it reminded me of the scene in the movie DANTON with Gerard Depardieu accusing Robespierre of Highjacking the Revolution.

And We are supposed to vote for these Highjackers Friday ? ...

mr kadiver

with regard to your post, it is also interesting to note montazeri's account of the events. montazeri tells that to discredit shariatmadari and his followers, the etela'at (he doesn't specifically name rezaei) arrests ghotbizadeh saying that he with shariatmadari had planned to assasinate khomeini.  ahmad khomeini tells montazeri that they had found explosives hidden in a well on some property (maybe ghotbizadeh's) and apparently ahmad kh convinces ghotbizadeh in jail to admit to it (including implication of shariatmadari) and then khomeini will pardon him.  once ghotbizadeh admitted to it, he was executed immediately.  montazeri tells that it was later found out that there was no explosives or such collusion between ghotbizadeh and shariatmadari.  

For the Record ;0)

Remember Sadegh Gobtzadeh ?

See BOOK:  The Man In the Mirror by Carole Jerome (1987)  

Guess who arrested him for attempting the Coup against the IRI and send him to the execution squad: MOHSEN REZAIE !

Here is the article in the NY Times (1982)

Iran Legislator Accuses Ghotbzadeh of a Plot

"Mohsen Rezai, commander of Revolutionary Guards who arrested Mr. Ghotbzadeh in his house, said the former Foreign Minister had been arrested while smoking opium, the newspapers said. Mr. Ghotbzadeh faces a firing squad if convicted in the plot."

You Still Want to Vote Huh ? ...

Wait till we find Moussavi's Record !

Oh and Remember that the Enemy of One's Enemy is Often a Friend in disguise ...

LOL

Setareh jan

Thanks for your response. i understand your arguments, but there are some rather crucial points to consider:

Khatami is a part of moussavi's camp and will certainly play a key part. if i have read him right, khatami considers himself a follower of moussavi. on the role of the 'leader', this figure (institution) will inevitably fade in time, and we would help the process by siding with his opposing camp that includes several people who have openly or otherwise called for his powers to be curbed. i don't know if moussavi can succeed where khatami failed, but i suspect that he can, partly because he has many followers within the system, and partly because he showed strong executive ability as the PM in the 80s. also, being in france, you know better than me how long it took the french to acquire a degree of democracy after 1789. khatami's failure should be put in its historical context - and the need for some patience :)

Moussavi has a very positive record on the economic front. Moreover, he has a natural tendency toward what others (unfairly) would call 'protectionist' economic policies. in my opinion, this is what is required in the context of today's economic crisis, and despite the continuing and desperate propaganda of the failed 'washington consensus', economic 'security' (like food security, only wider) is essential for development. moussavi rightly believes that trade should be properly managed and not left to the 'market'. we have seen what the 'market' does when unregulated. Ahmadinejad just wants to play acrobatics with economics and people's livelihoods.

last, iran is fast heading for isolation and war in a way not seen in the longest time. the world really has changed. the US is weak and highly indebted, and it is reaching out - while at the same time pretending that it 'leads' the world. the situation can go either way: cooperation or chaos/war. iran's current position places it in the war camp, and we cannot afford to have ahmadinejad win again.

the imperative to vote is far stronger than at khatami's time in my opinion.

Peace

Niloofar-e-Aziz

Thank you for your comment. You are taking my remark out of context and too literally. My pen moves to provoke but my logic is worth trying to follow, I think many feel like I do.

You see after the last election and all the monarchist bs I really did not want to preach a boycott. but when I listened and studied the candidates I realized that I could not bring myself to vote for the one candidate that has a chance of challenging the incumbent.

Then I thought well I should write an opinion piece about why, even though I don't want to preach boycott, I still can't bring myself to vote for Moussavi. Often, because I am not a follower of any ideology or party and because I lost some of my political correctness living in Iran, I write pieces that reflect contradictions, doubts and frustations that many of us face.

Read all the reasons I mention other than the fact that the guy does not inspire me and tires me please. This is about ennui, world weariness, with the regime, the system, even the people. I am not look for charisma so much as I am looking for a plan, a strategy and sincerity. Khatami had it. He was someone who could bring a big paradigm shit. He failed namely because the role of the President under the current constitution with the place of velayateh faghih is weak. my question that all supporters of Moussavi fail to answer and ignore, more focus on the fact that I called him boring, is:"how can this candidate succeed where Khatami failed so miserably?'

You see, for me to vote, and this is clear in my article, in a system I don't believe in, the guy has to be at least as promising and inspiring as was Khatami. Khatami, in my opinion, missed his big historic chance to bring about real change. So it is hard to feel moved to go and vote this time around.
I am simply fed up. I lost faith living in Iran. I hope I am wrong. I have as much to gain as the next Iranian by a better, more liberal government in Iran. but my dream is to have an Iran which is simply a republic. this guy gets elected and we will have many more years of khamenei. I really can't bring myself to vote for any of these candidates but I respect those who do and especially those people who are actively campaigning. the best slogan I heard come out of all this is: "Hag-e- Zan-e-Irani Hejab-e-Ekhtiari". that is something. a step in the right direction. lets hope something better than we wished for comes out of all this!

Inshallah as they say, Iranian politics to paraphrase, Nikki Keddie, is very difficult to predict. so you never know. Maybe there is an end to akhoondi cleverness. Inshallah!!

Setareh jan, i don't quite get your point

your writings are usually quite interesting, but this effort misses the mark. elections are not about personalities. they are not a part of show business (other than in the US and some other places where razzmatazz surpasses substance). and they are not supposed to 'inspire' us the way some movies do.

on the contrary, they are periods when we exercise our own individual responsibilities with somber care for our community. to me, unassuming, thoughtful, 'boring' candidates are more trustworthy and positive than your standard, egomaniacal, 'charismatic' motor-mouths with deep pockets and shallow promises.

and the deep differences between the 2 leading candidates could not be much clearer. one would lead the country to war for the 'mahdi' (very zionist-like in fact) and play fire with the economy on the basis of little more than a deadly cocktail of ignorance plus arrogance while the other would concentrate on internal issues, particularly the economy and cultural emancipation. how can we ignore this stark choice? coz it's boring?

Peace

You did not get it...

I did not say that you are not entitled to vote, YOU said that since you live outside AND at the same time you said that YOU will vote, i.e., according to you, you are NOT entitled to vote BUT entitled to cheat; and now you are saying that you will vote for Mousavi because you trust your relatives. that you will essentially double-up your relative's vote. So there is an oxymoron in your claim, forgetting that each of your relatives in entitled to ONE vote not two.

Your trust of your relatives has no place in a democracy even a fraudulent one like that of IRI. Many, intellectuals, leftists, islamists, voted for Islamic Republic (blindly) because they all trusted Khomeini while they did not know what they were voting for and why: for their own cultural death sentence. And we know where that vote based on trust brought us!

Irrespective of what I think, your logic based on your own claims is an oxymoron.

Respond to 1), 2), 3),

1) Dear "Setareh Sabety", I really would like to respond the points you've addressed, but the way to cite me is just wrong and not my level. When did I call you being rude? Sorry. Besides, I AM entitled to say We should shut up, this is a sign of humility, not typically Iranian, but necessary.

2) Dear "Vazirian", which part of entitled to choose is sooo difficult to understand, that you cite me NOT "entitled" to vote? Come on, primary school students do a better job. And, I have confidence in my relatives.

3) Dear "Mehdi", you wrote a great comment. The non-voters are just lazy and yellow persons. They can only criticise, but I still haven't seen/heard any solution or alternative from them - typically Iranian Nale Kardan and Lajh-bazee Kardan. Do you know what I wished? Something like the One Million Signatures campaign, a kind of White Movement, people voting invalid whilst signing a paper showing their displeasure. Civil disobedience at it's best. I think, at this stage voting for Mousavi is very important, but also - as you wrote - we must push forward beyond just voting.

There is something between dream and disillusion, this is called hope. Without hope you can blow your brain out. Maybe Mousavi turns out worse than Ahmadinejad, maybe he will be the worst failure of the IRI ever. At least I have tried, and then I will try again, and again, until it works out someday.

I have confidence in a better future.

When voting seems to make no difference

I am reminded of previous election in the US when Bush was eventually announced as the president. The point being that the country was so closely divided as to who to vote that it clearly indicated that neither candidate had anything really different from the other. During that election, there were also a lot of people who felt they should not vote simply because they didn't feel that it would make a difference.

I am not a fan of boycotting the election, mainly because I feel that is like putting out negative energy - it's like saying to all PEOPLE (not just the system), "I hate you all - I don't want to play your game." But at the same time, I think we give a little too much importance to the elections. I think there is more needed than to just elect someone to presidency. I think we should definitely vote but we should not think that voting is all that we need to do. Major changes requires more work than that. I think we must vote, even if we don't really like any of the candidates but we must not stop at that - we must push forward beyond just voting.

One of the delusional aspects of the voting...

... is to come out and beat on one's chest and say one is "fighting" by voting. That, I have seen a lot among the voter crowd (especially the "green" ones). To me, if anything, it's only a sign of the type of cowardice that goes so deep, it has made the person delusional.
Don't fool yourselves people!

Twisted logic...

N... said:

By the way, as long as we are living abroad, we are not part of the population of Iran (whole number of people or inhabitants living in Iran), therefore neither you nor I are entitled to choose the next president.
....
I vote for the person my relatives want me to vote for.

So you are NOT "entitled" to vote but will vote therefore you will be "cheating" based on your own logic to let your relative's vote double-count. That is very islamic indeed.
.
And again, you are saying that the Evin torturer is "entitled" to vote since he lives in iran, but the run-away tortured prisoner who lives outside is not "entitled" to decide future of iran. The criminals oppressing iran are entitled to vote but the best minds of iranians who left iran out of IRI oppressions are not entitled to vote -- not that they must or will vote.

We can't sit here enjoying the different freedoms and giving advises to Iran-Iranians, because we don't suffer the pains they do. It simply is true, we are fair-weather Iranians. I believe, you suffer a lot seeing the circumstances in Iran as I do, but this is not enough, living in Iran is like living in hell.

True but (1) you are underestimating the suffering of iranians who left iran, (2) attachment of some iranians who left iran to their place of birth is far more stronger than any of the oppressors in iran -- some being far far more iranian and affectionate towards iran and iranians than ANY of the gangsters ruling iran or fanatics supporting them, (3) our beloved are living in iran some of whom may be far more endeared than selves, (4) one does not need to be Jesus to feel the pain of a 16 year old girl who is assaulted and raped in prison -- our suffering is caused by indifference of non-iranians in iran not due to iranian outside.

They will vote for Mousavi, because they say, everything has become worse since 2005; they regret not voting 2005 and they don't want to do the same mistake again.

So you will vote for the one who was in charge when thousands of iranians were slaughtered and he did not do a thing, did not object, did not even raise objection by a word lest his personal interests and position endangered?

Being iranian is in one's heart and one's soul not where he lives. Our problem has been that those who have ruled iran, looted iran, murdered tens of thousands of iranians, and sent hundreds of thousands to a war for islam, were NOT iranian in soul and those who have supported them were blinded by their religion to the point of murdering iranians and iranian culture with complete ease. You forgot that the same iranians (as you consider them) wanted to destroy iranian identity and iranian culture by destroying tomb of Cyrus, Persepolis, Tomb of Ferdowsi, and nothing but arabic is written over their flag and pray five times a day to an arab god of murder and deceit. Even now, their supporters curse anything iranian from Cyrus to M.R. Shah, detest words like "persian" or "aryan" and yet praise and endear a bunch of arab thugs who slaughtered iranians and fought each other some 1400 years ago.

Mineum 71

I do not think you have to live in Iran to care or to be entitled to vote. If you read my previous comments you will see that I lived there last elections and felt the same way. My mom lives there and no way is she going to vote nor are many of my friends and those who are voting understand my stance.
this daroon marz/ boroon marz dichotomy serves the iri's purposes. It is a non-issue in the worlds more democratic societies. You can live in Tehran and have less of a grasp of what the majority wants than someone more informed and more interested living in Timbuktu!
I don't remember calling anyone rude but telling someone to 'shut up' is not exactly democratic discourse and debate now is it?
Try to use logic rather than repeating yourself and being uncivil, it works better. thank you for your comments and stay calm please, this is just a discussion of ideas and opinions regarding the elections. Not a contest nor a place to fight with each other.

To Samani

"Voting or not voting would not make any difference unless we live in a purely democratic system like France or America"

I don't claim to know much about France, but America is not a purely democratic system. America is a democratic republic, and a two-party government. A purely democratic society doesn't give a choice between a or b. Also the electoral college system is something you may want to look into. From what I hear India is a good example of democracy. 

Dear "Setareh Sabety",

Sometimes it's very difficult to be polite to the contributers. You know, everyone wants be treated well, as an intelligent, civilised and educated person. But this is - as already noted - sometimes very difficult.

I wrote: ... therefore neither you nor I are entitled to choose the next president, and I also wrote I vote for the person ... The keywords are not to choose and to vote. Where do you read something like not having the right to vote? Is this sooo difficult to understand? I wonder ... I'm sorry for being rude but I'm totally loss for words, please don't get me wrong and I hope you are not mad at me, but I hope you didn't want to insult my intelligence on purpose.

Again, we are not living in Iran, we don't know what the Iran-Iranians are suffering (yes, we know the stories, but still we don't feel it). They are fighting, it's their right to CHOOSE the next president. We - you, I and many othes - are fair-weather Iranians. We should shut up and trust our relatives/friends living in Iran and do, what they want us to do.

That's it.

Listen to Jaleho

Who cares?! it does not matter one way or the other!

One way or the other, IRI will present itself as victorious and claim that out of 46.8 or so million eligible voters (based on IRI government official records), 90 percent participated and the entire world media will report it as such.

In spite of all the noise, it was exactly the same four years ago!

For NOT voting, please go to voting site

www.election88.org

and DON'T vote for the 10th time, see if anyone cares about your whining for the 10th time :-)

 many locations in US, and updates available at the following site under "10th presidential election"

www.daftar.org

Except...

... these guys are so "vaghih" (what's the equivalent of that word in English?? In French? Only Farsi/Arabic? Hmmm), they'll count a white vote as a vote anyway.

dear mineum 71, on expat voting

You said in your comment: "By the way, as long as we are living abroad, we are not part of the population of Iran (whole number of people or inhabitants living in Iran), therefore neither you nor I are entitled to choose the next president. "

Actually in a democracy those citizens living outside the country, or expats, do have a right to vote. I voted in the u.s election, living in France, no one excluded me or many thousand Americans who live outside the U.S.and vote. So The whole argument for not being entitled to vote is really not valid and there is neither time nor space to explain the constitutionality of it here. the empty ballot argument though is true a pertinent if you believe that you are in a system that is transparent enough where that form of gesture is counted. I did actually think about doing it. thank you for your comment.

To All the Members

I am full of respect for your opinions, and I know that most of us want quite the same. But please let me ask one question: What does non-voting has in common with civil disobedience (as required by many of the contributers)?

Civil disobedience is an active action, actually a subtle offence, with which you want to demontrate displeasure, for example when you go on strike. But sitting at home demonstrates only personified laziness and cowardice.

I had wished something very different, something like a White Movement, all voting invalid whilst delivering a special message (for example We wanted another candidate/system/whatever). And still it's better to vote invalid than not to vote. But staying at home doing nothing? The halo is slipping.

-----

By the way, as long as we are living abroad, we are not part of the population of Iran (whole number of people or inhabitants living in Iran), therefore neither you nor I are entitled to choose the next president.

We can't sit here enjoying the different freedoms and giving advises to Iran-Iranians, because we don't suffer the pains they do. It simply is true, we are fair-weather Iranians. I believe, you suffer a lot seeing the circumstances in Iran as I do, but this is not enough, living in Iran is like living in hell.

I have no big head, I respect the opinion of my relatives living in Iran, after all they are the ones who are fighting that war, not you or me. Being affected of the elections is true, but not enough to act the voice of reason, we didn't deserve being such authorities. I vote for the person my relatives want me to vote for. They will vote for Mousavi, because they say, everything has become worse since 2005; they regret not voting 2005 and they don't want to do the same mistake again.

This sounds intelligent to me.

DONT VOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So Ahmadinejad can have 4 more years! LONG LIVE AHMADINEJAD!!!

Here are some reasons Ahmadinejad is awesome and you are not:

1. //www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlXCfSIT1sw

2. //www.youtube.com/watch?v=UroLuDq6_1g

3. //www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZoEyjr3nVw

4. //www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR9JkvmuWEU

5. //www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqT0vmzva8Y

6. //www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbbQeZDbSMo

7. //www.youtube.com/watch?v=36zBwHEzkhM

8. //www.youtube.com/watch?v=g224O-8zHJY

God what have we become??????

I like how some try to force feed us only two choices... bad and worse.

Who said we should have only these two choices? Why should we settle for this and only this.

It is truly a sad day when the victim gives in to the abuser and lives life as dictated within the abuser's realm of reality.

When a system is corrupt within its foundation, when elections are a sham and candidates are a different shade of the same color... how can one vote and feel that they have actually helped in a positive fashion.

voting is a confirmation of a system. For one to vote within this establishment, they either have to be delusional to expect change within this corrupt system or truly believe in this establishment.

To so ignorantly or intentionally encourage individuals to vote is similar to forcing a man to decide what method of torture he prefers... after all he might get lucky and get the whip instead of the hot poker.

God what have we become??????

Voting depends on democracy

Voting or not voting would not make any difference unless we live in a purely democratic system like France or America. However, I believe voting for the good side could help promote democracy if you could find a good party.

response

You can choose not to vote, but inaction in itself is an action. Regardless of your choice one of these guys will be elected as the President of Iran. Knowing that, what good does withholding your vote do when it could be the difference between 4 more years of agonizing leadership, or the chance for improvement? Everyone who sits back and says I'll only vote when this happens or that happens isn't helping the matter because the reality of the matter is that this is a system that we all live in. Why are people like you so wiling to withold participation and risk digression rather than bring about even the tiniest of improvements. You wont get the whole mile that you want by not voting, so why not take a few steps in the right direction and vote? 

I guess it isn't clear to me how the symbolic act of not voting enhances the state of life for your mother and loved ones in Iran. 

As for the comment on gun laws I think I may have been misunderstood. Gun laws, or the right to own guns, are part of the constitution. So a reform or drastic change would involve changing the constitution. Such is the case with womens rights in Iran. The idiotic notion that for instance, the testimony of a woman is equal to half the testimony of a man, is based on arcane islamic law. So they are similar in the sense that changing either would require the kind of drastic upheavals that don't tend to happen in either country with the exception of revolutions. 

I agree with you on feeling alienated in Iran, and not wanting to raise your children there, and I in no way want to personally attack you. But why choose to lose ground when you have a chance to gain even if it is only an inch? to this day people who say they wont vote only name idealogical reasons, but not tangible ones. Your sheer ennui with the system serves no purpose.

بَه بَه چشام روشن

خوشم میه که این همه زن مؤمن چادر به کمر زدن میخوان این ستاره خانم را از خر شیطون بیارن پایین. ستاره خانم یه دفعه غرب زده نشین، از آدامس جویدن شروع می‌شه تا خدایی نکرده میرسین به ماشینسوواری. حالا شما رای نده ولی‌ اگر دادی به کروبی بده پنجاه تومن گیر تو میاد پنجاه تومن گیر من. ؛) چُسمک.

آقای آریامنش

خوب حال ابوالقاسم رو گرفتی‌. خدا بد نبینه ما هنوز نیومده ورچسب حزب الله به پیشونیمون زدن. ما داهاتیا شانس ورچسب شاهی‌ نداریم. شایدم باید سرم رو تیغ بزنم که بختم برگرده. ارادتمند.

Excellent comment by Dairus45, simply loved it

I really liked comment by Dairus45.  From what is written in this comment about Khatami to discussion of how it does not matter if Mousavi is boring and that is kind of president we need right now in Iran.  I like how this comment mentions that Ahmadinejad made sense during Bush time but he does not any more.  This commentator also noted correctly that we do not want Iran to be the place to attract all negative energy.

It is also correct; as mentioned in comment by Dairus45, that what Ahmadinejad said about Rafsanjani shows that he cannot work within the system.  In my opinion, what Ahmadinejad said about Khatami and Rafsanjani is harbinger of events which will happen in future.  I bet that one year  from now, you will not see the word president next to Ahmadinejad's name.