OPEN LETTER

Arya Manesh

Your unequivocal denial of historical existence of Palestine and the Palestinians prompted me to Google  "what is Palestine" the second link that comes up reads as "History of Palestine and Palestinians" once you click, it turns out to be the Israel Science and Technology homepage with the flag of Israel on the upper left hand corner, which further provides a link to www.eretzyisroel.org which gives an explanation similar to yours.  check it out.

However, the first link The Web definition to Palestine takes you to wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

There you see two bullet points as follows:

1-  a former British mandate on the east coast of the Mediterranean; divided betweenJordan and Israel in 1948

2- an ancient country in southwestern Asia on the east coast of theMediterranean Sea; a place of pilgrimage for Christianity and Islam and Judaism

The following is the Wicipidia's summarized definition (third link):

[Palestine is a name which has been widely used since Roman times to refer to the region between the Mediterranean Sea andthe Jordan River.][1]Wicipedia also adds  ["Withinthe context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict,the use of the term Palestine can arouse fierce controversy[4]Inthe early stages of the Zionist Movement, the termwas used on occasion by Zionists (it is, for example, used in Herzl's Utopian book Altneuland, a basicZionist text[5]).However, already under British rule and even more after the foundation of Israel, Zionists came to consciously and vehemently reject the term in favour of "Eretz Yisrael",leaving it wholly identified with the Arab side in what became the Israeli-PalestinianConflict."]

Do you know what is the most prominent Manesh of the Aryais? It is their truth telling.

Arya..., I have to hand it to you

you have elevated the art of aaseman-o-rismaan baaftan to stratospheric levels.

Good to hear from you. I truly thought this could not be done. You proved me worng, bro.

ganselmi

ganselmi, if you go to "college" for more illumination and happen to see Zion, give my regards to her .... I haven't seen any comments from her lately, perhaps she is preparing for her "college" lectures.

Ganselmi

I am neither a Zionist nor a Jew, and I have never been to Israel. In fact, I think that Israel is extremely wrong and vicious the way it treats the Palestinians. But, by virtue of the fact that I disagree with the status quo noise machine on this site, I think that I should be added to your conference call list. I'll email you my cell phone number. What time does the call ususally take place? :-)

Ganselmi, you talk about unfair generalizations ?

Ganselmi,

Let's get one thing straight: you are a Zionist, so these accusations against you are not false. But your accusations against NIAC (Such as it being a IRI "lobby") is unproven slander.

If you have the proof, show it to us. Otherwise, the site administrators should remove your slanderous comments. It's a simple put up or shut up situation, if you know what I mean. So I hope you oblige soon.

Arya manesh sounds really

Arya manesh sounds really reasonable to me. Notice (*cough* Anonym7 and Ostaad *cough*) how he doesn't substitute labels, accusations, and epithets for arguments. Notice how he doesn't draw broad generalizations and resort to namecalling to get his message across.

Ostaad, you on the other hand, are reducing all Israelis to "Zionists" (as separate from some original, mythical, "good" Jews). And the point is to dehumanize them. You're okay with Jews as long as they don't politically constitute themselves as such. Sounds just like Ahmadinejad when he smiles and says, "we love the Jews, we only want to wipe out the Zionists!"

But goodnight for now. It's getting late and I have much collaborating and scheming to do. As you know we Zionists and Zionist collaborators have a conference call every morning to coordinate how we are going to manipulate world markets, use Hollywood to confuse the umma, and drink the blood of Arab children. Bwahahahaha! 

Ostaad

I used to think just like yourself when I was in Iran years ago but I changed. All this hatred of Israel was implanted in us eversince childhood by the Islamic society we lived in or by our parents. We both know that. Very often one hears the revisionists and propagandists finding ancient historical links between the "Philistines" ("Invaders" in Hebrew) and the Arab "Palestinians." There is no truth to this claim! The Philistines were one of a number of Sea Peoples who reached the eastern Mediterranean region approximately 1250-1100 B.C.E. They were actually an amalgamation of various ethnic groups, primarily of Aegean and south-east European origin [Greece, Crete and Western Turkey] and they died out over 2500 years ago! Those Philistines were not Arab... and neither was Goliath! The Arabs of "Palestine" are just that... Arabs! And these Arabs of "Palestine" have about as much historical roots to the ancient Philistines as Yasser Arafat has to the Eskimos!

The ancient, indigenous inhabitants of Palestine are long perished from the earth. Canaanites, Phoencians, and then Philistines, all were dominated by the Israelites before 1060 B.C.E. Most of these cultural identities dissolved completely by the neo-Babylonian age, or, the 6th century B.C.E. Arabs weren’t even in Palestine until the mid-7th century C.E., over a thousand years later, after Palestine’s 1,300-year Jewish history. Arabs later living in Palestine never developed themselves or the land, but remained nomadic and quasi-primitive

Even the word "Palestine" has no meaning in Arabic - every word in Arabic has some meaning deriving from the Koran, but the word "Palestine" does not. If anything, the name "Palestine" was associated with Jews. In the years leading up to the rebirth of Israel in 1948, those who spoke of "Palestinians" were nearly always referring to the region's Jewish residents.

Ostaad

Ostaad, as we Esfahanis say, some of these AIPAC charlatans think we come from posht_kooh!

Arya..., archeological "artifacts" with Hebrew writings prove...

the Hebrews tribes have lived all over the ME from day one in areas including today's Israel, throughout the Arab Penninsula, present day Afghnestan and the areas surrounding the Mazandaran sea. A quote here and there selectively chosen to prove your point do not negate the fact that there are people who were displaced from their homes due to some backroom deals between a colonialist invader, Britain, and some European Jews who had just gotten through the most horrendous mass killing and persecution operation in the heartland of the "civilized" Christian Europe by criminals who were claiming to be "Aryans". Creation of Israel was a payback for those crimes, but the indigenous people of Palestine had to pay for that - in fact the creation of Israel, a state which has never existed before in history, in Palestine was effectively achieved what the Nazis and their like-minded Christians all over Europe always wanted. They were more than happy to "donate" portion of Palestine to the European Jews to see them ethnically cleansed.

As for finding archeological stuff to prove something actually that was one of Nazi's prime tactics to do archeological digs everywhere in search of Aryan "artifacts" to prove their history and validity as an Aryan nation. It is no coincidence the Zionists are so keen on "archeological finds" with Hebrew writing on them. The problem is things with Hebrew writing only prove one thing, and that is the Jews, not the Zionists, have been part of the fabric of the Middle East culture and civilization from day one. Unfortunately the foreign Jews did not come to Palestine to co-exist, despite all the spin which has obviously clouded the judgment of a few glib people. The European Zionist came to to Palestine to grab as much land and water as possible and to colonize as many people as pssible, a al the Mongols. Their bad had was they chose the worst time to bring back colonialism to the region because after the WWII most of the poeples of the ME had started their anti-colonialism movement which lead to the creation of the present day ME.

You may put the word Palestine in quotes as much as you want, but there are millions of people who are saying they exists, they want their own country and much of the world has come to agree with them. Yes, they have made some mistakes but there's always room for correction. The world is correcting itself and the Zionist extremists are going to get the same treatment the Nazis got.

Please spare me the Zionist creatd narrative sold as history. Been there, done that.

Ostaad

Please allow me to say that I do not blame ganselmi for saying using the term "so-called Palestinians".

First of all I hope you do not label me as a "Zionist" or an Israeli as some intolerant people have. I was born to muslim parents but currently I am not exactly an athiest but spiritual but not really a muslim for I saw what this regime(The Republic Of Islam) did to Iranians.

I fully support the so called Palestineans in trying to achieve their own state. I also support Israel and believe unless the security problem is solved for the Israelis there will be no peace and no palestinean state. Peace will not be possible as long as the Republic of Islam of Iran creates and supports terrorist groups such as Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah and Hammas.

btw,there is a preliminary historical fact that must be established . There has never been a civilization or a nation referred to as "Palestine" and the very notion of a "Palestinian Arab nation" having ancient attachments to Isreal going back to time immemorial is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the world! There is not, nor has there ever been, a distinct "Palestinian" culture or language. Further, there has never been a Palestinian state governed BY Arab Palestinians in history, nor was there ever a serious Arab-Palestinian national movement until 1964... three years BEFORE the Arabs of "Palestine" lost the West Bank [Judea and Samaria] and Gaza as a result of the 1967 Six-Day War (which the Arabs started). Even the so-called leader of the "Palestinian" people, God bless his soul Yasser Arafat, was EGYPTIAN! In short, the so-called Arab "Palestinians" are a manufactured people...a people with no history and no authenticity... whose sole purpose for existence is to destroy the state of Israel.

There was no "Arab Palestinian" history before the Arabs manufactured one shortly after 1948, and then especially after the June 1967 Arab-Israeli War! In an interview with the Dutch newspaper "Trau" (March 31, 1977), PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein said, "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. It is also been a "conceptual" war for ownership of the term "Palestinian" which has been transferred over to the Arabs whereas, before 1967, "Palestine" has always been synonymous with the Land of Israel.

Archeological sites to this very day continue to yield artifacts with Hebrew writing, not some fictitious "Palestinian" or Arabic text! The so-called "Palestinian" Arabs were simply then, as they are now, Arabs no different culturally, historically or ethnically from other Arabs living in any of the 24 Arab countries from which they emigrated. The suggestion that the "Palestinians" are some sub-group of Arabs with their own unique identity is pure fiction! Great propaganda... but still pure fiction! And had not the Arabs continued to brainwash generation upon generation into believing this HISTORICAL HOGWASH about some ancient "Arab Palestinian" ties to Israel, most could have gotten themselves a real life by now with much less bloodshed and suffering for everyone concerned!

Intellectually moribund?

ganselmi,

I'm sorry my arguments have gone over your head and made you think I'm talking about every thing incuding the kitchen sink. Allow me to clarify: AIPAC has tremendous influence on US foreign policy, but that is by no means can be called control. That influence is diminishing by the day. I never argued AIPAC members has "dual loyalties", I am saying the ONLY loyalty AIPAC, its members, supporters and beneficiaries of its largess have is to the Zionist state. On the other hand, I firmly believe Jews who do not belong to outfits like AIPAC do NOT have dual loyalties.

I wish your change "as a free man" would have been towards enlightenment and respect for human rights not becoming a cheer leader for occupation, Apartheid and racism.

I have never said Israel should not exist or Israelis don't deserve peace and security. It is the precisely the right wing Zionist policies which have put Israel in the precarious situation which it find itself today. Your regurgitating stale AIPAC talking points, including the vulgar use of the term "so-called Palestinians", is proof positive that your "change" has not improved your understanding of the reality of people's lives. You "change" has simply made a one-line parrot for the kind of claptrap the right wing Likudniks put out, and that stuff is losing currency real fast among the civilized people.

You need to realize that anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism. Labeling critics of Israeli policies as anti-Semite the same way the Islamists label those who criticize Al Ghaedeh for its terrorism as anti-Eslam, makes you just another Jahadi, a Zionist jahad and an arm-chair jahadi at best.

You have proven you can change, why not leave the dark side?

To Mr. Obama

Dear barack Obama,

Please learn from history. Jimmy Carter made a deal with the mullahs thinking that the mullahs will create an Islamic buffer against the spread of communism in the region. Unbenknownest to Carter and Brezinski(sp?), Ayathollah Khomeini outmanuvered them and the rest is history. I wish We didn't keep making the same mistake over and over again. Having said that, it's time to learn from our mistakes and become more informed on how we can help the democratic movements inside Iran. Almost 80% of the poulation is against this regime and wants nothing more than democracy. Unlike Arab countries, who are fanatical about "Islam" and think Islam will free them from their "secular dictatorships" , the Iranians have already experienced an "Islamic theocracy" and they know for fact that it's morally bankrupt and failed system of government.

Mr. Obama, Iran, once was a respected noble society. I hope one day people learn to separate the government from the people, and that can only be done through media.

As for The Bahai's,the largest religious minority in Iran are the Bahai's. There are more than 300 000 and they have existed since the early 1840's. Since that time until today they have been murdered and persecuted, tens of thousands have died and languished in prisons. Even today they are denied education, work, pension, and are routinely jailed just for being a Bahai.

Dear Obama please do not make the same mistake that America did by supporting Afghna Mujahedin and Bin laden during the Soviet era . As you know Afghan Mujahedi are the same as the Taliban. It is believed that not only Jimmy carter helped establishing the Republic of Islam but also the U.K. has been implicated in the estblishment of this theocracy. Please see below:

Professor Norman D. Livergood,(who has an impressive educational background -Ph.D., Yale University, 1961, Philosophy, Ph.D., Union Institute, 1989, Artificial Intelligence, …….) in the following URL

//www.hermes-press.com/impintro1.htm states:

“In 1979, the Standard Oil-backed Shah of Iran was thrown out by a British-backed coup and the long-time British asset, Ayatollah Khomeni, put into power. ….. When the new British-controlled regime in Iran came into power.” This statement by Livergood clearly states that the so called Islamic Revolution was clearly a complex hidden coup by British intelligence with ordinary Iranian people participating to achieve political freedom. Therefore the British government is completely responsible for the actions of Khomeni’s terrorist regime during the last 25 years. We the people of Iran have every rights to go to any International Court against Britain for crimes against humanity. Iranians and freedom loving Americans should be concerned regarding British forces activity in Iraq and their possible dirty Islamic clerical plots against Iranian freedom movement and the US. As long as Islamic regime in Iran is in power and there is any British influence in the Middle East it is hard to imagine any road map to peace and prosperity. If You Are a World Peace Activist and Against Islamic British Clerical Mafia Terrorist Regime in Iran you should consider to boycott all British products . The following British Clerical criminal records in past 24 years in Iran are as follows:

* Torture of all political prisoners.
* Over 120,000 of political prisoners execution.
* Rape and execution of young girls in prison.
* Executions in public.
* The stoning of women.
* Cutting hands as a barbaric punishment for stealing a bag of rice while Clerics in Iran stealing by billions with the help of British, French and Swiss bankers.
* War, destruction of Iranian cities and over 1,000,000 victims.
* Killing 3 former Iran’s Prime Ministers, many former Iranian Generals and ministers.
* The theft of billions of dollars by Rafsanjani , SS Clergymen and their terror Mafia gangs.
* Forcing Islamic dress code for women.
* Forcing their religion to the Iranian by violence.
* Loss of all social freedoms and invaded all privacy.
* A massive exodus of Iranian refugees throughout the world.
* The hostage crisis, and the demise of a 200 years old friendship between Iran and US.
* Supporting International Terrorism.
* Creating bad image for Freedom and Peace Loving Iranian.
* Over 200 years of British planning, plotting and conspiracy against freedom of Iran and prosperity.

Mr. Obama, There is, however, a much more effective way to obliterate the Islamist Iranian terrorist rulers' "margin of terror" what their "security margin" really means and that is to support the Iranian people's democratic aspirations. Western governments must speak out more forcefully in support of the millions of Iranians, particularly the young and women, who want to see a democratic, secular and pluralist government replace the current theocracy.

thanks ganselmi!

ganselmi says: "my position as a free man with a free mind (I'm not an Iranian Jew or Jewish-American; in fact, my grandparents are practicing Muslims and my parents are your typical secular-in-private-otherwise-in-public Iranian Muslims)."

ganselmi, a number of times I have been saying that a person that collaborates with Iranian enemies including AIPAC is not necessarily a Zionist or Jewish. Thanks for proving my point...
Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with your politics. As a free man (albeit a non-Muslim man) I don't follow what you apparently came to know at some point in college!

Desperate

Ostaad,

You seem to be debating out of place of desperation -- do you know why? Cause you are arguing from the kitchen sink. You don't put forth reasonable arguments about the issue at hand. Instead, you throw everything you can get your hands on, hoping something will stick.

If you'll recall, we were debating Mammad's claim that AIPAC "controls" American foreign policy. Initially you seemed to be going along with that. Then you conceded that this is not the case, but underhandedly suggested that AIPAC has dual loyalty issues. Then you walked back this argument as well. Now you are just ranting against Israel.

Ostaad, I hate rehashing the same points over and over -- but I can't stand by as you attempt to re-write history. I'm a proud supporter of Israel. I came to my position as a free man with a free mind (I'm not an Iranian Jew or Jewish-American; in fact, my grandparents are practicing Muslims and my parents are your typical secular-in-private-otherwise-in-public Iranian Muslims). In college, I was very much the opponent of Israeli "occupation" and "apartheid." But then, at some point, I decided set aside the anti-semitic crap that folks in the middle east are force-fed from cradle to grave. It came because I noticed that opponents of Israel continually singled it out for blame even as they ignored or condoned the actions of much worse governments, including but not limited to our own IRI.

That was a revelation. And I came to despise, for example, movements to boycott Israeli goods and universities, when those same boycotters had nothing to say about injustices committed by far more monstrous regimes around the planet. That was a huge red flag for me -- and the more I learned about this issue, the less convinced I became about the anti-Israeli position.

So I'm more than glad to expound on my views vis-a-vis your objections to Israel:

1. You raise the issue of the founding of Israel. You paint the picture, as do many opponents of Israel, that Israel was founded solely on the basis of expropriation of land. This is patently false. If you read any of the more objective, scholarly accounts (_Divided Jerusalem_, for example) it becomes clear that the so-called "Palestinians" -- so-called because they didn't self-identify as such until the 20th century -- willingly sold much of their lands to Jewish migrants years before WWII. Now was some degree of expropriation involved in the founding of modern Israel? Sure -- but point to the founding one modern nation-state that wasn't forged by some amount of expropriation and exclusion and injustice! By definition the founding modern-nation states involves drawing new boundaries to establish sovereignty, whereby some group necessarily gets f---ed! Again, it's unfortunate, but Israel shouldn't be condemned because of the complexity of its founding.   

2. You raise the issue of apartheid. This is an incredibly loaded term and one that I strongly believe is inappropriate when describing Israel vis-a-vis the people residing in the PT. Israel has a security problem like no other nation on earth, and it's forced to take actions that certainly don't win public relations kudos, but which are understandable given what it's facing up against. Now, can we disapprove of specific instances and actions here there? Of course! I don't support expanding settlements or Jewish-only roads, and I don't think the wall is helpful. But I do so on the basis of the understanding that Israel is a nation that deserves to exist, thrive, and live in security. Too often, opponents of Israel turn from criticism of specific policies towards undermining the very idea of there being a Jewish state, or suggesting that Israel's mistakes (all nations make mistakes) are somehow indicative of its fundamentally being evil. I believe anti-semitism is at the root of this fallacy, whereby Jews are held to incredibly high standards, and as soon as deviate or make a mistake here or there, it becomes okay to condemn an entire people. 

In short, I know I won't change your mind. But I'm glad I changed mine when I did.

ganslemi, may I offer a bit of reality check?

No, I don't know that Israelis want a "viable two-state solution... more than anyone". In fact I do know that the only solution they want, at least the minority who voted, are continuing the occupation, more illegal settlements and the maintaining the Apartheid regime as long as they can. If what you claim about Israel's destabilizing colonial policies were true, then how do you explain the election of the ultra right wing Natanyahu extremist as the PM and the appointment of a renowned Judeo-fascists like Lieberman as the FM?! The former has adamantly opposed the Two-state "solution" since it was announced, and the latter wants to "transfer", Israeli Arabs to who know where. Furthermore, neither admit any rights for the Palestinians except for them to put up and shut up, as Shamir once proclaimed. As for the canard that  Israel cannot negotiate with its enemies because they don't recognize its "very right to exist", all I say is it is Israel that has kept the policy of "Palestine and the Palestinians don't exit" which goes back to the begging of the Zionist encampment, harassments and occupation of Palestine. Israel never deviated from that policy even after Arafat modified the PLO charter to explicitly recognize Israel. Israel has always found some way to evade any possibility of a "viable two-state solution" and the unabated expansion and building of the illegal settlements, Israeli-only roads, checkpoints and constant assassinations of Palestinian political figures are the main reasons.

I assure you Israel's enemies will have a "fundamental change" when there's a fundamental change in Israel's policies, I am talking about real change not gimmicks a la Sharon and his unilateral disastrous "withdrawal" from Gaza which created the biggest concentration camp on earth withoug solving any problems.

Let's cut to the chase Iran, Israel's most able enemy, has publicly announced for that I will abide by a real and viable peace treaty between Israel and the Palestinians. In other words once there is such a treaty, Iran will be effectively removed from the list of Israel's enemies. Israel seems to like to have Iran as an enemy rather than not, because everything Israel is doing is to move away from peace not the other way around.

I don't know how much "qualitative strategic advantage" Israel, which is armed with nukes and the latest weaponry, needs. I wish someone could say when Israel will reach that point so we'd know when we can hope for a real peace process to start!

Obama and the "Eurozone" leaders have never said they won't support Israel's legitimate "needs", but what is and will be changing the support for Israel's occupation and its Apartheid regime. There are all kinds of sign the EU will boycott goods produced in the illegal settlements in the West Bank, and every European leader has told Israel to change its policies because, no matter how much righ wing nuts like Berlusconi may like the Zionists (he must be a closet fascist), their people are against them. After all they are democracies and their public opinions count.

You still seem to be reading from an old AIPAC sheet music. I'd ask for a new one if I were you, or pay attention to what others like J-Street are saying.

Dear Obama,

Dear Obama,Mr. President

A theocratic regime i,e. Republic of Islam of Iran that for example rapes teenage female prisoners before their execution. A regime that advocates suisidal ideation and suicide bombing against infidils and what they describe as "enemies of Islam. A regime that stones people to death for commiting adultry; A regime that creates and supports international Islamic terrorism can not be trusted to have any kind of bomb ,especially nuclear.

This regime is an Immidiate danger not only to Sunni countries of the region but also to Russia, Israel,Europe,and eventually to the whole world including America.

The same applies to Bin ladan, The taliban and Al Qaeda.

Ostaad

Your response was encouraging. I'm glad you believe that one shouldn't accuse any subgroup of a population of having dual loyalties -- and how dangerous such views can be.

I disagree with your argument however, that Israel no longer requires special support. Israel unfortunately has dangerous, hateful enemies in its neighborhood -- enemies who cannot be negotiated with because they refuse to accept Israel's very right to exist -- and who also do everything they can to prevent a viable two-state solution. (Think how a secure Israel and an independent Palestinian state living side by side could prosper together and serve as fundamental pillar of a new stable middle east -- you know Israelis want this more than anyone!)

Unless there is a fundamental change in the mindsets of Israel's enemies, Israel should continue to benefit from US (and European) military support to ensure it holds qualitative strategic advantages over its foes and to provide Israel with sovereign options for deterring existential threats. Thankfully, it's clear that, despite some fluctuations in tone, the Obama administration and most Eurozone leaders continue and will continue to accept Israel's need. And we have organizations like AIPAC to thank for this.

Ostaad, you go girl!

Your passion burns like a bonfire.

AIPAC control

Ganselmi, when even Avraham Burg (Former Speaker of the Israeli Parliament) says:
"I have a feeling that sometimes we’re having three political entities: the United States of America, the sovereign state of Israel, and the independent state of AIPAC, which has its own policy,....",

you have to try much harder to convince us that AIPAC is not behind many of U.S policies as correctly stated by Mammad.

ganselmi, I actually agree with you on...

the fact that AIPAC neither controls nor dictates foreign policy of the US. I never said that and I sure concur with you on that one - although I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what you mean by "to a T". Anyway, funny I came across this article on The Huffingtonpost.com and found it very pertinent. It's titled, "The Crusade to Defeat Obama Intelligence Pick Hurts All Jews." Here's the link:

//www.huffingtonpost.com/mj-rosenberg/the-cru...

Incidentally, it has a section about the dual loyalty issue and how much the current right wing influence peddling in the US using tools like AIPAC is hurting the American Jews.

I don't believe the American Jews have dual loyalties. But I don't think being "emotionally invested" means having double loyalties. The only thing required of the US citizens is to uphold and defend the Constitution of the US, once we save if from GW/Cheney's shredders. 

While we are at it, please read the following article about the anti-Israel demonstration which took place during a tennis match between an Israeli tennis player and a Swede - check this out the match was CLOSED to the public and you had to have a SPECIAL INVITATION to watch the match!

Here's the link:

//www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3682509,...

I think the world has given Israel enough rope to hang itself. The kind of support that AIPAC and lobbies like it can provide for Israel is not needed any more. Israel is now an established country with solid military, which must be cleaned up of its criminal elements, and solid socio-economic underpinning. Therefore the kind of support Israel needs now is no longer almost free military help and generous donations. Israel needs to leave the maternity ward and join the big boys, therefore it has to behave responsibly. That means it must determine its borders, like all other countries, end the occupation and recognize the Palestinians right of return IN PRINCIPLE. By doing that Israel will remove Iran from the list of enemies and by achieving peace with the Palestinians can ACTUALLY join the civilized world. Israel needs to be pushed, cajoled and kicked if need be to act like a country and not like a bandit. J-Street can do that, not AIPAC.

Dear Ganselmi

Thank you for exposing the clear Anti Semitic views of our IRI supporters, defenders and apologist so eloquently.

Just watch how fast they will site you Mearsheimer & Walt;s stupid paper on the Israeli Lobby as an excuse to defend their views:)))

Three Points Ostaad,

1. I never claimed AIPAC represents the opinions of all Jewish-Americans or all Americans to a 'T.' I'm sure there are points on which the average Jewish American or the average American diverge from the viewpoint AIPAC represents. AIPAC can be more hawkish - sure. But whether or not this is the case does not prove that "AIPAC controls American foreign policy." Don't you see how simplistic and self-contradictory a notion this is and how easy it is to disprove?

2. Piggybacking off my first point: the very fact that you can point to so many situation where American officials have strayed from the AIPAC orthodoxy puts the lie to the idea that they somehow control US foreign policy. You yourself wrote, "regurgitating AIPAC induced talking points does not help you to prove any points because those who gave all those labels to Iran are NOT in service any more. Have you heard Obama utter those charges? I didn't think so." If you are indeed correct, then how is it that you can also believe that AIPAC "controls" US foreign policy? Wouldn't they somehow muster all their Judeo-Zionistic conspiratorial powers to reign Obama in? 

Or how about when Mammad recalled how he, with the help of his friends at MoveOn.org, got members of congress to walk back their support of the anti-IRI resolution? Again, if the evil Jewish powers-that-be really "controlled" American foreign policy, wouldn't they have stopped Mammad, et al?

3. Finally, this whole notion of AIPAC and its supporters putting the interests of Israel before the interests of the US is a huge distortion. At its heart is a cornerstone mythology of the new anti-semetism that says that wherever they are, Jews are more loyal to Israel than to their home countries. It's the same sort of accusation that people used to attack Catholic Americans (the Irish and Italian) with: anti-Catholics used to argue that all Catholics true loyalty is the Pope, so we can't trust them because they will always put the interests of the Holy See before the interests of the US of A. Of course, this was not true: Catholics could dorect their secular loyalty towards their then newly-adopted homelands, and their spiritual loyalty to the pontiff. The same accusation is hurled at Jewish Americans and their organizations. And it's still wrong. 

By the way, that same accusation could be thrown at Iranians: aren't some of us more emotionally invested in maintaining the IRI than the security needs of our adopted homeland? I'm not saying that's how it is, but I'm just trying to show this mode of thinking is so hurtful and can be used against any group, including Iranian-Americans? 

ganselmi, you defense of AIPAC is very lame becuse you are..

conveniently overlooking the fact that AIPAC only represents the Israeli right wing factions like Likud and other Zionist nationalist groups. You are shamelessly distorting the American public opinion to sell your viewpoint on AIPAC because, although the American generally support Israel, they also oppose Likud and its policies. There is overwhelming evidence the American people, including the Jews, are against Likud and its right wing policies. AIPAC may have the most money and the wealthiest supporters but the American Jews have proved they cannot and must not be lumped as a bunch of Likudniks. That's why the American Jews have created alternative lobbies such as the J-Street. I'm afraid you have let your schoolboy crush on Likud and AIPAC to cloud your judgment.

I do support CASMII and NIAC's goals of thwarting the military attacks and fighting to prevent and/or lifting sanctions against Iran, so desired and pushed for the AIPAC and its lackey such as you, because they are counter-productive and simply do not work.

I am not sure where you come up with claptrap such as "NIAC purports to represent Iranian Americans"! NIAC has made no such claims although it certainly represents its members and those who do support its goals. Moreover regurgitating AIPAC induced talking points does not help you to prove any points because those who gave all those labels to Iran are NOT in service any more. Have you heard Obama utter those charges? I didn't think so.

BTW, the NRA and AARP are consist of Americans who do not put the interests of a foreign country, no matter how friendly, ahead of the US interests, nor do they actively indulge in espionage for a foreign country. There's simply no comparison between these genuine American lobbies and a group working as a foreign agent. 

Dr. Strangelove

Dr. Strangelove issuing decrees including a clean bill of health for lobbies, specifically the CASMII lobby which defends his Islamist republic’s illegal full cycle nuke programs, is not exactly an earth shattering surprise. Per your request, Woof Woof

Mammad,

"1. AIPAC controls the US Middle East policy, NIAC and CASMII do not."

You write this as if it's statement of fact and not just your personal conjecture. AIPAC is a lobby like any other (NRA, AARP, etc.). True it's the most prominent pro-Israel lobby in the US, but it's not part of some sinister conspiracy. It's an openly pro-Israel organization that attempts to legally influence US administrations and members of Congress. There is nothing sinister about that, unless you buy into any number of anti-semetic conspiracy theories a la Walt and Mearshimer, etc. The reason it's seems so vocal is because...

1. It's efficient and effective, i.e. it does its job really well.

2. American public opinion in general is resolutely pro-Israel and that helps to maintain the special relationship. Again nothing sinister there. The American public shares certain values with the Israelis. I personally happen to believe that those shared values are wonderful and, thankfully, so do most of the American people.

The difference

Somebody moaned here about CASMII, NIAC, and AIPAC and their comparison. Let's see:

1. AIPAC controls the US Middle East policy, NIAC and CASMII do not.

2. AIPAC's patrons make huge contributions to elect a certain congressman or senator, or defeat someone, because they like or dislike them, NIAC and CASMII do not.

3. AIPAC's members SPY on the US, NIAC's and CASMII's do not. At this very moment, Steve Rosen and Keith Weisman of AIPAC are on trial for spying and giving classified US documents on Iran to Israel.

Their defense? the US has OVERCLASSIFIED documents. "What they have done (stealing classified documents and giving it to Israel) would not be a crime, if the government had not OVERCLASSIFIED," according to their attornies. Has anyone heard a more ridiculous argument? Conclusion? AIPAC now wants to decide what can and cannot be classified! NIAC's and CASMII's members do not spy on any country.

4. AIPAC advocates and pushes for the release of traitors, such as Jonathan Pollard, who spied on the US for Israel for years. NIAC and CASMII do not.

5. AIPAC has been trying to start a war with Iran. It WROTE Resolution 362 in the House and, without reading it, many congressmen sponsored it. Only when I deconstructed it and showed that not a single paragraph in it was true, and MoveOn and other organizations sent it to every senator and congressman (I also held conference calls with many on the Capitol), the Resolution collapsed and was withdrawn.

The collapse was the result of the hard work of thousands of people. I wrote the deconstruction of the Resolution that was widely distributed and I am absolutely proud of it. That is what people like me want to achieve: Preventing a war between the US and Iran, and warning about the danger of allowing Israel to do it. 

Representative Barny Frank, one of the sponsors, apologized when withdrawing his name, saying he had not read it carefully (read: had not read it at all).

By the way, I am neither a NIAC or a CASMII member. I know a grand total of 2 people in these two, one in each!

NIAC and CASMII do not advocate war between the US and any country.

6. CASMII has one and only one goal: preventing a war between the US and Iran. NIAC is not even in that business. Say what you want.

AIPAC, on the other hand, wants to control everything. AIPAC was the key pusher for the Baku-Ceyhan oil pipeline, preventing it from passing through Iran, the most economical way, that even the Clinton administration admitted it.

Oh, by the way, before I forget, Fredo C: Moan, groan, bemoan, bark, scream, and "respond" in haste. I will not come back to this column to see your "response." I'll move on to the next article! 

Mammad

The Contrast Is Important

E'te'faaghan fekr mikonam darkhastike BK va ph darand kheili mohem ast. Tafaavote beyne aazaadiye ke Aghaye fakhrzadeh daarad ke harchi delesh mikhahad bar aleyhe ghavanin va arzesh-ha va mas'ulin amrika beguyad va adam vojud hamaan azadi baraye kasaanike mikhahand az jomhuriye islami ya velaayat-e faqih naqd konan -- an tafaavot mohemi ast. 

نظام خون و جنون

نظام خون و جنون اسلامی هیچ چاره ای الا گیو آپ ندارد

از بیست سال قبل هر دانشجوئی که با بورسیه از ایران خارج شده و در
خارج از ایران مشغول تحصیل است مزدوری از این رژیم میباشد والسلام

از بیست سال قبل نظام اسلامی ایران مشتی از مزودران خود را خانوادگی
به اروپا و امریکا فرستاده تا برایش تبلیغ کنند

خانواده هائی که در اروپا و امریکا درست شبیه ایران زندگی اسلامی میکنند
با پوشش و رفتار و مسجد و باقی ....و سر بریدن گوسفند
و ......همگی وابستگان همین رژیم هستند و

Mr. Fakhrzadeh: would you be

Mr. Fakhrzadeh:

would you be kind enough to produce those letters the board has sent to the IRI officials?

Thanks.

BTW, when did the Iranian people elected your organization to represent them?

What is stopping you?

People who are working for the betterment of Iran at whatever pace must be appreciated and respected.  

As you well know, one could openly say things in America without fear of repercussions that you can not vis a vis the Iranian government so stop acting like you are naive as to why people stop short in their criticism. 

To push others to the point where it becomes risky for their well being while you yourselves stay silent is the crest of disingenuity.  If you want to write an open letter and criticize the regime with your real name and picture all power to you, go right ahead. Others are doing the best they can.