Misc

Correct for nit picking

Be awakening, means that Iran is actually the first blogger nation. Which place ain’t important, what’s important is that people search to know, and to communicate despite the repression. Under Khatami, there was a relative freedom of press. What happened is beyond the expectations that time. Newspapers popped up every x periods of time and there were some which made fun of everyone in the regime. That was just unbelievable for a country in the ME except Israel. The same equivalence I knew that time was the French press with le canard enchainé Why this happened? How can you explain this? In the time of the Shah, Iranian specialists waited that some technician-engineers come from the US for telling them what to do. My aunt worked at Sazmaneh Barnameh, you need to hear her in what extend Iranians were dependent to Americans. Are these till hot air for you?

It is not just the fact of assembling Chinese pieces which is important, but the fact that people have knowledge to do it. Iranians were able to assemble a home-made satellite. What’s that for you? Hot air?

What are facts for you? That Just a clarification on JAS39 Gripen- it is actually a very nice fighter and in addition to Sweden, it is in service with Czech Republic, Hungary, South Africa, and ordered by Thailand?

Please calm down a step, take a breath. We are talking about the same thing, by looking at facts with different glasses.

At least my details are correct, unlike your

rambling. And I don't just cut and paste articles from random places. And if you bother to actually read the article you cut and paste, you will find that it says itself that the claim of Americans disabling the F-14's before they left is just a rumour, and that there is no way to verify that it is true. In fact, I am verifying for you now that it was NOT true because F-14's fired Phoenix's throughout the war. Furthermore, What did I EVER cut and paste here? What the heck are you talking about? You are not even capable of staying on a topic and making a point.

You make general statements like "we were asleep" and "now we are awake". What the heck does that mean? How have we awoken? By assembling Russian and Chinese weapons that are 40 years old? How are you more awake if you assemble a North Korean rocket from 1950 in 2008 than if you manufacture an American helicopter or luxury car from 1975 in 1975? (remember, the topic here is the degree of our industrial independence now vs then)

You claim you know some events relative to the first year of the war, then you should know better. You absolutely FAIL to stand behind your assertion that Iranian planes were "glued to the ground", which is sheer rubbish. I also lost many friends and relatives, some of whom were pilots, in this war. If you lost a relative who was a pilot, you should know much better.

The best way you can calm anybody down is to say things that are true and that you can back up, not just hot air. Like I said, please inform yourself before making bold claims. You just prove your lack of credibility otherwise.

The truth shall set you free.

-FAIR

Han ressidim be sareh matlab

You were going to far in details, I was just trying to calm you down. Yes I effectively copy-past the same rubbish that you did so far till now.

The point, isn't if Iran or in which extend it can compete with the others. The point is that we were slept till, even the time of the late Shah. And now we are awoken. That's the POINT.

We both also agree that Iran needs a decent government. People knowing who they are, will succeed to change in what they want to be.

I lost one of my relatives in the Iran-Irak war, he was a pilot. I know some events relative to the first year of this war. So many valorous people died, they stood in the front of injustice and continue to do it right now. We deserve to have a decent life.

The SOLUTION

is to have a decent government.

Then Iranian students can go to Netherlands, US, and anywhere else without a problem, and advance much further with much less effort than is necessary now.

It is THAT simple.

-FAIR

Congratulations, you know how to cut and paste

Anybody can cut and paste, but you don't answer the question.

First of all, do you think you can destroy a tank with bunch of hand grenades? They won't do squat, so spare us the propaganda.

And so did the 9-14 year olds with hand grenades also shoot down bombers trying to bomb Kharg island? Or did they sink 80% of the Iraqi Navy? What are you talking about?

And for your information, those very sabotaged F-14's shot down IRAQI Mig-25's during the war.

And those very F-4's and F-5's that your cut and pasted articles mentioned were talking off from Dezful every 0.5 hours, not knowing if the base they took off from will be in Iranian hands when they came back.

Yes, hundreds of thousands of Iranians had to sacrifice themselves, BECAUSE KHOMEINI HAD DESTROYED WHAT IRANIANS HAD BUILT UNTIL 1979.

Listen, I personally know F-14 pilots who fired Phoenix and killed
Migs (and other pilots and other ground and sea personnel) and served with honor.
I recognize the sacrifice of ALL who served, including the 9-14 year
olds you mention. But I still use my brain and don't need to accept some
cut and pasted article's word for what happenned. How close did the author of your article ever get to the Iran Iraq air, land, or sea border in their life?

If the Iranian
Air Force had been grounded, Khuzestan would be part of Iraq today, and
it would have been quick. This is well documented by now.

Get a CLUE. Or are you just going to cut and paste some other rubbish that other clueless people wrote by just guessing and repeating rumors?

-FAIR

Collaboration

What's better than that? But, this satanic regime isn't respectable. Iranian students in the Netherlands are simply being refused to some sensitive courses because of mullahs.

So, what's the solution? Have these youths die because we are not in 1975, or that the Dutch or others block their ways?

Are you denying that Iranians have reached the known?

From where or how better they should begin is in my view another question. But, what I was telling and continue to say is that Iranians are becoming more and more empowered. And that's cool. You want more examples?

This is what I mean by the myth

of dependence then and independence now.

It is like saying back then if we could have manufactured our own propeller planes and no one would have been able to interfere, we would have been independent. Yes, independent at making irrelevant products!

Ask yourself this: if Russia, China, and North Korea all say collectively and seriously that they will stop all technical assistance to Iran and put Iran under an embargo, what will Iran be able to accomplish purely on our own. And then tell me how independent we are.  The Antonov-140 flew in 1997, after 11 years we still cannot even reliably ASSEMBLE such a simple aircraft that was completely designed by foreigners and given to us.  There have been 4 crashes of this plane, 3 of them were Iranian.

EVERYBODY develops complex things in partnerships, even Europeans, Americans, etc.  That is normal.

-FAIR

You seem to know but love to deny

Under the Shah, the IIAF had benefitted greatly by interaction with the West, and Iran was able to purchase large amounts of sophisticated US military equipment to protect against the Soviet threat. By the early 1970s, the bulk of the IIAF was made up of Northrop F-5A and E, McDonnell Douglas F-4D and E Phantom II, and Lockheed P-3F Orion aircraft. However, none of these were able to ward off Soviet MiG-25 reconnaissance fighters that were making frequent flights over Iranian terrirory. This fact was made clear to US President Richard Nixon during his visit to Iran in May 1972 during which the Shah requested a means of intercepting the high-speed Soviet aircraft.

Having received permission from the US government, Iran decided to purchase the F-14 Tomcat over a competing F-15 Eagle offer. An intial order for 30 F-14s was signed in January 1974, and this number was later increased to 80. The first of these aircraft arrived in Iran in January 1976, differing only from their American counterparts in the removal of certain classified avionics systems. These aircraft were also fitted with the improved TF30-414 engine, standard on later production models. Twelve aircraft were delivered by May 1977, and one of these was used to shoot down a BQM-34E target drone flying at 50,000 feet with an AIM-54 Phoenix missile in August of that year. This successful demonstration quickly convinced the Soviets to end the MiG-25 overflights. Deliveries continued until 1978 when the 79th unit was delivered, one example remaining in the US as a testbed (this plane was later transferred to US Navy flight test duties at the Point Mugu Naval Air Station following the Revolution). Some 714 Phoenix missiles were also ordered, but only 284 of these were delivered by the time of the Iranian Revolution in 1979.

Following the overthrow of the Shah and the ascension of Khomeini to power, the new government cancelled further contracts for Phoenix missiles and other Western arms. Continuing decay in relations with the US led Pres. Carter to impose an arms embargo on Iran that still continues today. Without Western contractor assistance, a lack of spare parts and maintenance support quickly degraded the ability of the IRIAF to operate its fleet of US-built aircraft. Fundamentalist purges of Air Force officers, pilots, and personnel who were perceived to support the Shah further worsened the situation.

In addition to the effects of the embargo itself, rumors suggest that all 77 remaining Tomcats (two had been lost in 1977 during training flights) were somehow sabotaged so that they could no longer fire their Phoenix missiles. Whether or not these rumors have any merit to them is debated, as is the identity of who may have performed this sabotage and how. Various accounts credit the act to either departing Grumman technicians or Iranian Air Force personnel friendly to the US. Perhaps the simplest and most effective means of performing this sabotage would have been to remove or somehow corrupt the software in the aircraft's flight computer that interfaces with and commands the missiles, but there is no proof this was done. Some sources even go so far as to claim that Iranian revolutionaries performed the sabotage as revenge against an Air Force perceived to be pro-Shah, but this seems very unlikely given the technical skill required.

How Saddam wasn't able to defeat us? He wasn't because of 9 to 14 years old children who weared hand-grenades and went under Iranqi tanks. Because of hundreds of thousands of iranians who sacrified themselves for their country. OK?

Saudis don't effectively have aircraft manufactring. what I was telling was that they are dependent on every single of their technologies to be runned.

You put the starting point in 1975, I suggest to put it 500 years BC. When the persian empire was ahead of everyone, why not?

I see. The Americans

I see. The Americans sabotaged these planes so they stayed glued to the ground.

Perhaps you can enlighten us as to what it was that was destroying Iraqi armour on the ground in September and October 1980? When there were 6 Iraqi divisions at full strength against 1 Iranian division which was not even regrouped yet? And why Iraq could not take Dezful and Ahvaz in the first week despite having virtually nothing in its path?

Or perhaps how Iraq was never able to destroy Kharg Island from the air for 8 YEARS, despite it being Iran's sole point of oil export and its lifeline?

Or perhaps who destroyed 80% of the Iraqi Navy on November 21, 1980 and closed their access to the Persian Gulf for 8 years?

Hint: the "glued to the ground planes" you described may have had a role to play in this.

If anything, the main obstacle to more flights by these planes and more devastating blows to the Iraqis was the destruction that the Islamic government brought on the personnel of Iran, by putting so many of them in jail and executing them for nothing. The Shah had bought years and years worth of spare parts and ammunition for the air force that were sitting under mountains. That's right, YEARS. They were still using this by 1986! And not to mention engineering plans and factories to support all this.

The situation was exactly opposite to that in Arabia, what are you talking about? What manufacturing and industrial capacity does Arabia have for aircraft, helicopters, missiles, etc.? Iran was rapidly building up such industry in the 70's, and every facility you still see in Iran today for this sort of thing was started back then. If the US leaves Arabia tomorrow and cuts off technical help, how many sorties would the Saudi Air Force be able to hold up against an enemy? In Iran, despite the purges and executions, it was about 150 a day. Not bad for a "dependent" nation. And the French can make fun of themselves, Iranian F-14's shot down so many brand new Mirages that they finally just gave up improving the Mirage, and actually several French advisors were killed on the ground when they were bringing their brand new Mirages to Iraq, only to be welcomed by Iranian Phantoms. Talk about a rude awakening.

You know, those same F-14's and Phantoms that were "glued to the ground".

And by the way, if Iran gets engaged today, do you not think that it will need to obtain spare parts for its Russian and Chinese aircraft (the ones that don't get destroyed on the ground in the first 30 minutes)? Maybe you would like to hear some of the stories of the Iranian Air Force and Chinese spare parts? (if you like embarrassment that is..)

Please inform yourself with the facts before you post.

-FAIR

1975 vs 2009 !

You are comparing Iran from two different ages. In 1975, Iran was ruled by the Shah and the economy was flourishing, mid-class people had the possibility to travel wherever they wanted and one dollar was equal to 7 tomans.

Iran was said to have the fifth military, no-nuclear, force in the world. But just before the revolution American engineers working on the maintenance of Iranian military aircrafts, took pieces which clue them to the ground. So telling that Iranians weren’t dependent on foreign technology is a false statement. The situation is identical in Arabia now where French make fun of them that without foreign engineers the country will stick on place.

After the revolution, Mullahs aimed to destroy our heritage. Nobody outside the country cared when Khalkhali attempted to demolish Persepolis or Ferdossi’s tomb. The regime was unable to do it, simply because Iranian people opposed to them. Iranians learnt that they have to cope alone and this moment was our independence day.

You are right, by saying that the technology Iranians use is Chinese, Russian or Korean like one. But what is important is that from this point, our engineers are able to make something by their own hands. If Iran get military engaged, it will lose a lot but will succeed to defend itself by its own technology and that without some people being able to sabotage its arms. This is priceless.

Thank you

Dear Cameron, Thank you for your kind comments, I am always happy to have a discussion about facts rather than name calling. We all care about Iran, and that is what is important. I am always skeptical of people who are quick to label one group of Iranians "LA soosools" or "unpatriotic" or "Arab lovers" etc. This intolerance of other people's opinions is our biggest obstacle to change, and I honestly think that the reason Iran has not emerged from this nightmare is that mullahs have successfully driven a wedge between Iranians inside Iran and those outside Iran (something the Shah was not willing or able to do, leading to the revolution).

Just a clarification on JAS39 Gripen- it is actually a very nice fighter and in addition to Sweden, it is in service with Czech Republic, Hungary, South Africa, and ordered by Thailand. Other countries considering it are Brazil, India, Denmark, Netherlands, and Switzerland. Over 230 have entered service so far, and the reason there have not been more has been fierce competition from other much more established arms exporters- F-16s/F-18's from the US, Mirage 2000 and others from France, Mig-29's from Russia, etc. Otherwise it is an excellent light multirole combat aircraft capable of carrying the AIM-120 air to air missile and engaging 4 targets simultaneously, something only the top fighters in the world (F-14, Eurofighter, Mig-31) are capable of doing. As far as crashes, 3 crashes in the life of a fighter development is very normal. It is actually a huge feat for Sweden that for such a small economy and one that until just a few decades ago did not allow itself to export weapons, it can compete even this much with the big arms export powerhouses.

Now, back to Iran. The argument I hear is "we have to start somewhere". I also hear much about how before 1979, we were "dependent" and were just assembling things, but now we are more independent. This is a myth and falsehood. I would argue that yes, we must start somewhere. But I think our starting point in 1975 was much better than our starting point today. Because that path would (and did) lead us to expertise which was competitive in terms of technology. To start from scratch, or from inferior Russian and Chinese technology, you will spend the same (if not more) effort and money, only to arrive at a point decades behind the modern world. If we were so "dependent" back then, how is it that the F-14 still flies in Iran today, well after their American counterparts have been retired? Are there American advisors? No, we are not like the Saudis. We as Iranians ALWAYS insisted on mastering what we took ownership of, and have shown that we can do it. Both back then and now. So I would rather take delivery of a GOOD technology (F-14, Cadillac, Renault 5, Hughes, Bell helicopter in 1975) than an obsolete one (Mig29A, Kia Pride, Antonov-140, Scud, Nodong in 2008) and develop myself from there.

To give you a perspective, the equivalent of Saegheh in 2008 back in 1979 would have been to reverse engineer a propeller fighter from world war II (like a P-51 mustang) and make it better. Iran would have easily been capable of doing such a thing back then, but didn't bother. But I can tell you, even the most upgraded P-51 in the world in 1979 would have been USELESS. But it would still have been an accomplishment and I would have still been thankful and appreciative of our engineers and scientists at the time.

I am sorry to inform you that the development of Saegheh has absolutely no cost increase at all for any potential invader. An AIM-120 will vaporize it before its pilot even knew he was a target.  In fact if God forbid the time comes, every runway in Iran from which a Saegheh or any plane can take off will be destroyed within the first 30 minutes. I pray everyday that it does not come down to this.  (btw, this is the real reason mullahs don't invest in air force, because they know it is useless for the wars they are imagining- they rely much more on missiles and rockets to retaliate- but that is another story)

In short, the problem is not and never is the engineers and scientists, who have my utmost respect. The problem is the overall strategy and direction of the country laid out by its leaders.

Thank you once again.

-FAIR

Toofantheoncesogreat

FYI -  The "Shafaq" fighter that you mention and link to is not an Iranian design at all.  It is a complete, unmodified copy of a U.S. protoype of the 1970's which was never mass produced.  I read a detailed piece on it a year or so ago, but I just can't find it now.  The USAF designation of the fighter was F-12something.  If you put photos of the two aircraft next to each other they are virtually identical. 

Fair jan,

Fair jan … I was wondering when you would show up on this blog.  Great to have you here.  I always learn a lot from you.You have made great points.  Can’t argue with any of them and there is no BUT here.Just add a few things … perhaps from a different perspective, and those would be that in lieu of everything that is going on in Iran, the economy, political pressure, brain drain and YES embargo (Iran can’t even buy military equipment it needs unless the US gives the Russians green light, let alone receiving parts for its existing fleet of Tomcats and Phantoms, Sea stallions etc.), what is happening in Iran is great and we should encourage and show gratitude to Iranian engineers and scientist (which I understand you also agree).People in Iran must FIGHT to get things done.  From red tape to ideological discrimination, poverty, social insecurity and God know what other social maladies.  Pulling ANY project off under such pressure is a miracle.You know reverse engineering parts is not an easy task … especially for a Tomcat.  The revolution – just as you pointed out already – put so many projects on ice and then the war was the icing on the cake.  I somehow believe that Iran is getting there … wishful thinking?  Maybe.Just one correction, when I wrote Sweden does not have aero-space industry I was referring to ‘Space’ industry.  Sweden’s space program is a joint program with other European countries launching satellites.The Jas-Gripen that you are talking about has crashed around 3 times – the first time right in the beginning it was introduced.  If I remember correctly they were trying hard to sell a few squadrons to the Check republic, but the checks backed off from the deal.  It has cost the country so much that a few years ago there was a heated debated going on to shelf the whole thing. What I DO know is that anything that happens in Iran in the way of military (modification or not) increases the cost of attacking Iran.I think we all feel passionately about Iran and feel sad and frustrated; to know that despite the wealth and the talent existing in Iran, we cannot take our rightful place in the world.  It is sad to see that Iranian scientists and researchers are contributing to the progress of other countries instead of Iran.Enjoyed reading your posts very much.Have a good one.

1-That is not the point,

1-That is not the point, nobody is disputing the 3 claims you make.

2-Iran has NOT done all this under sanctions, since the technology for all 3 of these achievements was based on Soviet/Chinese/North Korean technology, who did not put Iran under sanctions.  I can equally say that for Iran to take delivery of the F-14 Tomcat in 1974, the most advanced fighter aircraft in the world at the time, and to master its operation/maintenance in less than 5 years such that 30 years later they are still flying is also noboogh, if anything I would say that is much more of an accomplishment given the state of the art in 1974 and how much time and money Iran had up to that point to do what it did.  Iran has had 30 years and tons of money and talent available to it, and the technologies you are talking about are 40-60 years old.  In 1974 Iran was just starting its industry and most of its universities were less than 20 years old and was just starting to get money, and it successfully integrated the latest and greatest aircraft in the world at the time.  The equivalent today would be a third world country taking delivery and becoming master of the F-22 or F-35.  How many examples can you bring of that?  ZERO.

So there is no question that Iranians have NOBOOGH.  That is a completely separate issue.  But if you are going to raise it, it also begs the question, what is so much of that NOBOOGH doing out of the country, and why is there such a low standard of living and so many economic problems in such an oil and NOBOOGH rich country?  Why does such a smart country still import gasoline, drive inefficient, unsafe, polluting cars, have one of the worst air pollution and traffic safety conditions in the world, and why so many of our own people live in poverty?

But I will leave that for another day.

-FAIR

Not Fair enough,

How many countries do you know that have the possibility to put their own manufactured satellite into orbit, have nuclear knowledge and can produce their own military equipments?

I just know one which has done all these achievements under sanctions and that is IRAN. You call it what you want, I call it Noboogh.

I definitely agree that any

I definitely agree that any scientific and technological progress Iran makes is a good thing, and that nobody else cares about our own well being as much as we do. If Iran has these capabilities, then I am happy.

But are you sure it is the capability to *produce* and not *refurbish* and modify? I agree Iran has demonstrated prototypes of different aircraft (like Tazarv, Shahed helicopters etc) but that is very different than production. And I guess I don't understand why the ministry wouldn't be satisfied with mass producing a fresh fleet of F-5's, which Iran could really use? Because all its other ones are 35+ years old, every picture I see of an Iranian F-5 reveals they are pretty beat up. I would not want to be flying one, let alone in combat....

-FAIR

That is what I mean...

..You label people as "morons" and "LA" and "pretending to be Iranian" just because they don't accept your claim that the fighter is "home made". You just raise more doubt by taking such an attitude.

A longer cone, modified intake and extra tail are all MODIFICATIONS. And a serial number is something you paint on the plane.

The Iranian "light trainer" versions of the F-5 you refer to are called Simorghs. They are old surplus F-5B's that Iran bought from Ethiopia, who had bought them from Iran in the 1970's when Iran upgraded to the F-5E/F. Iran refurbished them and put them back into service.

Shafagh is just a mockup. Furthermore it is not even a fighter, it is a trainer. There is no evidence anywhere of any prototype even. Even less so for M-ATF. A plane that is supposed to be unveiled in 8-9 months is now undergoing extensive testing and is flying already, not something on a drawing board or a plastic mockup.

And if you want to get laughed at, go onto Tom Cooper's website and claim that Saegheh is a HOMEMADE Iranian fighter, or that Shafaq and M-ATF are 4th generation fighters. See what Tom and other experts on that forum has to say to you.

Before you publicly call people names and unilaterally strip them of their citizenship, you better have something concrete to prove them wrong.

I never claim the Saegheh or anything Iran makes is junk. And I love Iran just as much as anybody, and want just as much as anybody that we never be attacked again. This has nothing to do with my or anybody's patriotism. This is all about being...

FAIR

RE: Fair

I agree and disagree with some of your points. Iran has the full capability to produce F5 fighters, this was a prototype. It wont go into mass production until the ministry is satisfied. More information and pictures on Irans aviation industry can be found and debated here by Iranians, Russians and Americans: //www.irandefence.net/showthread.php?t=42708

As for Iran Khodro, making F16 and better life standard. I agree. In my world, Iranian nuclear submarines should be patrolling the Persian Gulf by now. But now we are here after Coups, Foreign intervention, War, Iranian own Ignorance, A 79 disaster revoluton, a Stone Aged regime. I promise you this, even if you had Mahatma Ghandi running Iran today, no power would want Iran to have those abilities you just stated with its own foreign policy interests. The Shah did not have that. STILL defense and science has to progress no matter who is in charge.

Its amazingly childish and irresponsible to say that Iran should fail in its military developments, as some say here, because the man in power is not the one you have the hots for. Or to blow off every achievement in Iran and call it an aftabeh nation because your a bald ignorant little putz that needs to get laid.

The fighter is home made

Anyone can easily go into Iranian university sites and find pictures of the airshows and the R&D Models, or read Janes or Tom Cooper about Irans fighter projects.

MRX1, you are an idiot. I point facts on your face, you call me an IRI supporter. This is why people like you are getting less relevant, self haters never were relevant in the first place. You are a bunch of insecure low lives.

Here is a nice picture sample of the Shafaq and M-ATF (Morghe Ashura) figher mock ups and designs. The poster calls it misguidedly a 5 generation fighter. Its not, its a 4 generation, and started out with cooperation with the Russians with the Integral project.

//www.outie.net/forums//viewthread.php?tid=28...

2010 is even written on the wing of the M-ATF model, it hangs together with the announcement that Iran is going to launch a fighter in the next 8-9 months.

If you want to discuss Irans defence capabilities, go to Irandefence.net.

Americans, Israeli and Iranians go at it together there, some time like animals, other times civilized. But not even an Israeli on that forum dismisses Irans air abilities like you morons do, calling it IRI junk, you spoiled brats. That "Junk" was worked hard on by students and enginers back home. And that "Junk", armed with home made sea killers, creates another deterrent to not make Iran the next Afghanistan while you ungratefull as###### sit abroad and wait for some miracle to happen back home.

On the other hand, this fighter, is home made, the serial numbers seen at various air shows confirm this together with the fact that these fighters look different from the Old F5's in the force, their cones are longer , air intakes, and other details etc. Iran already produces light trainer versions of the F5 with white camo, cant remember the name.

But again, this is IRI propaganda. Whatever you say dear "Iranian" habibs. Go back pretending to be Iranian in your own Los Angeles fantasy world, tell the world that your country is a dump. Or you could do us all a favor and jump your insecure self hating a##es off a bridge and do us all a favor.

I on the other hand, take pride in every bolt and screw our minds back home put together to keep our families at home safe from US bombs. From the biggest missile or fighter plane, to the smallest bow and arrow.

I knew this would happen...

..once I saw this old story posted here.

Why is it that if someone says their opinion, they instantly get labelled as "self hating" or putting down our engineers/scientists? As if our engineers or scientists give a damn about what a few beekar people post on iranian.com?

I am all for technological progress in our country, regardless of government or the technologists' personal beliefs. But what I am definitely AGAINST is LYING.

FACT: IRAN DOES NOT MANUFACTURE FIGHTER AIRCRAFT.

Saegheh is NOT AN IRANIAN BUILT JET FIGHTER. It is an American built F-5 from over 30 years ago that was modified by Iranians. PERIOD. It is not even reverse engineered. Reverse engineering means figuring out how to copy it, then making new copies of it. Iran had FULL PLANS OF THE F-5 for decades already, it does not have to reverse engineer it. Furthermore, The Saegheh is not a copy of an F-5, it is a MODIFIED F-5. Is this an accomplshment? Yes, and a big one indeed. But why do we need to LIE about it? Now, go ahead, call me unpatriotic.

False and overblown claims only serve to DISCREDIT those accomplishments which our scientists and engineers do have.

And to set the record straight, I need to clarify some points I have seen brought out here:

-Iran had a rapidly growlng industrial base in the 1970's. Of course it could not build an RPG in 1980, because it never aimed to. It never had to, since it was capable of building a much better antitank weapon, the TOW. If it stopped building such a weapon it is because of the revolution and mass disruption in Iran's industries, educated class, etc. which is a totally separate issue. Furthermore, it had a fully equipped and ready to go helicopter factory by Bell, fighter aircraft overhaul facility in Mehrabad called IACI, state of the art (for the time) electronics company called IEI in Shiraz, ammunition industries in Isfahan, and a car industry second to NONE in the middle east, and South Koreans were trying to model their car industry after ours. Also, Iran already did overhaul 747's back then (Pan Am considered Mehrabad the only airport in the middle east which was allowed to touch their Jumbo Jets). You name it.

-Iran had FULL engineering plans of the F-5 as Jack Northrop was a personal friend of the Shah and the IACI company in Mehrabad was set up partly by Northrop and had major overhaul capacity for F-5's and other combat aircraft. Iran was one of the first overseas customers of the F-5 in the 1960s' so by now Iran has over 40 years experience on this aircraft (which has been retired since the 1980's everywhere else). Same goes for Bell helicopters and F-4 Phantoms.

-Sweden DOES have an aerospace industry, and manufactures one of the best fighter aircraft available - the JAS39 Gripen. Yes, they do joint ventures with the rest of Europe, but that is because of good business sense.

-Iran-140 is NOT Iranian, it is a Ukrainian plane, the Antonov An-140, and so far a handful have been built in Iran, and 2 have crashed taking some of both Ukraine's best aircraft designers and Iran's best pilots with it. It has been talked about and shown for over 5 years now, and has not entered anything near regular service or mass production. And this is just an Iranian assembled (not designed) turboprop aircraft, and nobody else in the world is interested in operating this aircraft.

-Iran might have the largest car export capacity in the middle east, that is if you don't consider Turkey in the middle east. Turkey's car industry is way ahead of Iran's, and was not even close to Iran's industry in the 1970's, when Iran built and exported contemporary designs at competitive prices, and sold to people who actually had money, not Syria or Senegal. I won't even begin to talk about S. Korea's car industry, which held Iran as a model to follow in the late 70's. Look where they are today. Meanwhile, Iran continues to assemble the Peugeot 405, a model which has been discotinued 17 years ago!

Shall I go on?

Today, we should be making better cars than Kia, Daewoo, etc, we should be manufacturing F-16's and Blackhawks, and above all, our people should be having a decent standard of living.

The problem is too many people politicize everything to death, and the truth suffers in the meantime. People call An-140 an Iranian plane and an achievement, but if in 1975 Iran would manufacture Bell-214 helicopters, they would make fun of it and say it is just "assembly". Why can't everybody just accept that these are both achievements, and are necessary steps in getting know how? Stop misrepresenting things, and let us just call things as they are.

Enough said, now I have to get back to work. sheeeez...

-FAIR

Fred

Fred … No apologist in me here… that I assure you. You talk about empowerment.  Great! that is exactly what I am talking about too.  That come with education at all levels …  technology among them.   And by the way … you are wrong that Iranians are asking for outside help … especially if it would ever come from Americans and their weaponry.Iran needs help form Iranians.   YOU … me and many others who can help to EMPOWER them by the means of education and resources. 

Empowering people

Is exactly what's happening. Knowledge is power and believe me no one of sound mind in Iran or elsewhere dreams to see mullahs as rulers.

These scientific achievements are the signs that the Iranian society is waking up and they are done, not by mullahs but by the Iranian people.

No one more than people who know who they are and what they are able to do, are willing to change this fanatic regime.

But, this change is neither you nor me or anyone else who can dictate it to the Iranian people. It is something which will be done in time and by Iranians themselves.

To Rejoice

As I mentioned in an earlier comment, I will rejoice when I see a true achievement even if it is for building a bicycle from getgo by hands of Iranian scientiss.  However, how can I rejoice for fake stories ... you tell me how happy you got and how much you celebrated when Ahmaghinejad told the world that a 16 year old girl created nuclear fusion in her basement (albiet since she was a girl, her brother had to get the "parts" from local bazaar)?!

All that achievements that you have mentioned are simply BOUGHT technology from Russia, China and North Korea ... non is homegrown, none.  Again, it is very difficult to believe a country that needs foreign firms to look for oi and gas (100 year old industry in Iran), a country that needed Italians to build ports in such cities as Bandar-abbas, an oil producing country that can not produce enough Fuel for its own consumption, A country that its agriculture is at the brink of collaps due to inteference from Mollas (I have First hand experience with that one) and list goes on and on .. build jet fighters, submarines, sattelistes and so on ... I am not disputing the fact that they have put together a fighter plane, or took apart a jet engine and then put it back together ... what I am saying is ASSEMPLY of parts gives me no reason to be proud regardless if the parts were assembled by god like, super duper, outstanding Iranian scientists.

and to add, I feel proud when I hear Iranian students do great in international compititions. because I know how difficult it is to find resources in Iran and I know there there are a lot more students and great minds like them in Iran if they are given the chance, however, their talent is not recognized simply because the government instead of building better and equipped schools, universities and technical schools, spends money to BUY parts to assmble weapons and turn universities into graveyards ... what do you think a graveyard will produce?!  .. mollas are looking for short term gains at the cost of long term losses ..

Reality check

Look, this scenario of yours with rape and torture is a daily reality in Iran, right this very moment, it is happening and not by foreign invaders but by the Islamists in power.

All this warmonger labeling the second someone advocates overthrowing Islamist republic is passé. It had a good run during last American Administration, but it is really stale now. 

What I understand is the Islamist republic is taking Iran and its enslaved inhabitants down a path to destruction. What I hope for is for Iranians being empowered to get rid of this Islamist regime themselves.   I know the alternative is others who care not an iota for our well being, territorial integrity included, will do it the best way they know how which the history books are full of their horrible methods. 

 All this apologizing for the Islamist regime with a “noble” idea of waving off such possibility is a false assumption which only plays into the Islamists’ hands.

When the world is confronted with overwhelming call from Iranians to help them get rid of the common problem, Islamist republic, they will act accordingly. Otherwise they either cut a deal with the Islamists to the detriment of Iran and Iranians or get out their shock and awe that trumps any make believe Islamist weaponry by a long shot. 

Facts are facts

Nazis were extremists and they passed beyond savagery by what they did to Jews.

You seem to like books, there are two good ones
* The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World - Avi Shlaïm, and
* Holocaust is Over - Avraham Burg
which compare barbarian acts committed by Israelis to Arabs at what Nazis did.

Fred ... PLEASE!

Fred …  what is your wish? What do you hope for?  Foreign boots on Iran just to get rid of IRI?In that case … buddy you need to take a fresh look on what happened in Vietnam and Iraq. Many oppose IRI and wish for a free Iran … but no sane person would like to see this happening by the means of an invasion or war.Do you ANY idea of what kind of weapons where used in Iraq?  Do you know what has happened to families, women and children being raped, shot if front of their kids, tortured?  Do you realize that the Iraqis are enslaved anew?  Do you understand that if that happens in Iran, there will be no Iran but it will be torn apart (something that they really tried hard to achieve in Iraq and partially succeeded?)Do you understand that an attack on Iran will NOT be successful unless so called ‘usable nukes’ are used?  Do you realize the consequences of that? Please  …  have a think about it!

Nonconforming facts

I know this does not fit into your Palestine-centric worldview but if you ever come out of your stupor try to thumb through some credible history books.

You might be astounded to find out what the Nazis did with their own German labor leaders, communist activists, priests, writers, intellectuals, nonconforming youths, insane asylum patients and retarded children including disfigured babies.  But then again facts do not bode well with you fellows.

Dear Abarmard,

  I have noticed that more than one occasion you have left comments for me that I never replied. I apologize, but please know that it was not because I was ignoring you ... rather that I (in my limited time) got caught up responding to critics. Thanks for your suggestion, but really I try to stay away from politics and such discussions as much as I can – although I am guilty of giving in now and then - and hope to find the time to write some poetry again. Have a good one,Cameron 

Fred,

You are wrong; Nazis were good with their population. They just put Jews in ghettos and killed innocents by giving themselves the good right to do it. The only valid parallel that you can make now with those savages is to compare Israel to Nazis. Indeed, warmonger Zionists like you put Arabs in ghettos and kill women, children and elder persons savagely and that by showing their finger to the rest of the world.
You have such a great work to do on yourselves, why are you wasting your time at nit-picking here?

Fred ...

Fred …  Again … I personally live abroad and have not seen my motherland for more than a quarter of a century PRECISLY because of what you just wrote in your last comment.Please try to understand that ANY achievement in Iran will stay in Iran and belong to Iranians.  If and when the regime changes (in one way or another … whether it is through a reform or in a more drastic way) the know-how will not disappear.  Please also understand that regime change cannot and must not come at any price as it did in Iraq. That is all I have to say.