BOYCOTT

My Final Point of View

To all the girls and guys who think that voting doesn't change
anything, and from 1997 to 2005 the social circumstances were as bad as after 2005:

1) Read //online.wsj.com/article/SB124355320443064445... and //iranian.com/main/blog/jahanshah-javid/d....

2) You all deserve and I wish you the hell called IRI and Ahmadinejad.

Ali1234

Again, it's not a matter of eliminating my opponent, it's a matter of condoning capital punishment for traitors.
And as far as those you support so much, I have no doubt the way to get rid of them will need the use of force somewhere. It will be impossible to do that by b.s.ing and acting like Gandhi. That's unless it happens in La-La Land.

But sure, be it.
I'll be the totalitarian murderer, you'll be the freedom-loving democrat. See where you'll get with that! One thing I should do for sure is admire my "opponents" to have had you believe that so wishfully.

And yes, the joke is about that bear and that hunter.
Add to that the joke about the crazy guy who used to think his toothbrush is a dog. :)

Ali 1234

"And as I said earlier, you need a lot more preparation for your mass elimination plan. You'd have to execute at least 30 million people, and it is a little difficult to get their own consent in a "democratic" elections. But why not forget about "democracy" and "elections" and all that, and lobby to the Israelis and American neocons to nuke the whole country? Wouldn't it be much easier?"

Our progressive hezbollahi finally reveals his true intentions and desires. He actually pictuers and imagines the execution of 30 million innocent people. Accuses Others as being lobbyists of American and israeli governments, Just like IRI and their band of Thugs and Baj-begeers do. Making exaggerated claims to justify their defunct and meaningless logic , under the cover of " let the people decide what is best for them"

Such losers should keep their heads stuck in the long and dark tunnels of faithfulness, and don't take it out until they are told to by their future president elect. Of course, If a reformes does not get elected, Their flimsy logic lends its support to the incumbant.

Ali 1234

 am sure people don't need a "ghayem" like you to tell them what's right and wrong and save them from being fooled by "green candidate".

 In that case why don't you stop being one and get down from your hezbollahi khar and save yourself some dignity and aberoo.

"People are intelligent enough to know what's good for them, and no amount of your sensationalist nonsense and baseless accusations and labeling of others as murderers and torturers will stop them from making the right choices. "

 Baseless accusations? sensational nonsesense? Why are you in denial that there were murders that did take place under the supervision of both khatami as president and Mooose--avi az the prime minister. Of course that they will make the right choice. IRI will come out of the polls with a big L on its forhead and will send you and your boys photos to share the moment with you.

"It's really sad to see that at the end of the day the Rajavist, Shahollahis, and other so-called "opposition" (like yourself) share the same mentality and approach. You don't want to see any signs of hope and progress in Iran unless it is under your own banner. And whenever you are cornered in a debate, you suddenly drop your "democratic" mask and show your true face by insulting and accusing your opponents of all kinds of atrocities. Too much ego to fit in with the rest of the nation"

You are the one with the rajavi "like instincts. You are the one who is demonstrating so much ego, by creating an illusion of Hope and progress in iran under the cloaks of a bunch of proven criminal clergy. Your misrabley failed attempt at putting a lipstick on this piggy has been long spotted and yet instead of retreating and feeling the shame that you have brought up on yourself, you keep blabbering.

Ali 1234

You said

"sure :))

Out of the 36-7 million Iranians eligible to vote, 30 millions of them participate in the elections. That's A LOT of ears to cut my friend.

And "avam farib" are those who are trying to convince people that they will never achieve anything on their own and they need YOU to tell them what's good or bad for them."

Shame on you for blindely and maliciously taking the discussion way out of context and accuse iranians living abroad as out of touch and ignorants. You are disguising your ill intentions under the mask of "power of the people" and "what people can acheive under the banner of velayate fagih". You totally and shamelessly disregard the notion that it is not just the two Kooche-bazari people who say they will not vote for mousavi who really count, Itis all those who have cursed this regime all along.

Let me ask you something. How the hell do you know what people in iran want. and 30 millon will vote when you have chosen to reside outside of iranian borders. Or Do yor live in iran? for all we know both khatami and mousavi have you fooled, Oh and some of those actors and sudent organizations you mentioned, Just by taking you to their webistes and fill your mind with arajeef.

You know who a real avam farib is? That is someone who spread lies and deceives people and accuses them on something that they are not.

Ali 1234

"And no, I don't agree with you that voting in the elections is "supporting the tyranny behind". That's an absurd notion that has been somehow planted in the minds of Iranians. For one, if there ARE elections it means that the system is not totally "tyrannical" and there is room for progress. Saddam Hossein ruled Iraq for 30 years and his day one was not different from his last day. And that, despite all the "international contexts" that you were mentioning. Now HIS elections, where he got 100% of the votes every time, were a sham, not the Iranian elections where you have someone talking about the "dialogue among civilizations" at one end and someone organization the holocaust denial conference at the other. You just can't say that people's votes don't make any difference in that case."

You are not making sense at all.  You bring up the case where saddam's elections were a sham, But to what extent are you aware of the Iraquis internal politics during saddam's time to know that the same situation, as the one iran, was not the case over there?

besides, What difference could people's voting make and more imporatnatly what role do they play in connecting two totally separare, distant events together? Ahmadinejad's seminar was held a long time after Khatami's call for the  dialouge among the civilzations. Khatami was and still is a powerless pawn in the iranian politics,  he is a Mollah, and mollahs do not have any room for democracy in their mantra. How and why even peopl's vote could make any difference?

Your argument's biggest and worse fallacy is disregarding the nazame velayate fagih and the role it plays in iran politics, based on your shallow observations. There will be no room to progress Under this system and for as long as akhoonds dominate the scene.

Parham

That's the thing, you don't see the totalitarianism in your own view. Your perception is tainted with totalitarianism, double-standards and sensationalism, and I am just trying make you aware of them, and my intention is not at all to insult you.

For example, it doesn't really matter if you would condone the death penalty of your opponents today or "in the future" (you just don't have the power now). The point is that you want to physically eliminate your opponents and you justify their execution by labeling them as "traitors". And that's nothing but totalitarian urge, and I bet if you were in power, you actually would act on it.

There are millions of other Iranians who share my views about the reforms and who will vote on these elections. And you are implying that they are all supporting murder and torture and terrorism!! Seriously, do you think that's a fair and balanced point of view?

Yes, I think I have heard that joke. Is about the guy missing the bear a few times?

Ali1234

See, you being a crook, you keep changing what I say. Open your eyes. People see this sort of thing.
You say vote for totalitarian regime that kills NOW.
I say IN THE FUTURE, I would condone the elimination of traitors in a democratic system. See? It's very different!

You are completely detached from reality. YOU ARE the totalitarian view here. Read what you're tearing yourself to say ever since the beginning!

And you didn't say if you've heard the joke! :)

Parham

"I'm only condoning capital punishment for traitors. To be voted democratically of course"

I strongly suggest you stop posting comments here. The more you talk the more you expose your totalitarian views.

So, you don't recognize people vote for reforms and democratization, yet you would totally recognize their vote for executing your opponents(even on Iranian.com)? :))

And as I said earlier, you need a lot more preparation for your mass elimination plan. You'd have to execute at least 30 million people, and it is a little difficult to get their own consent in a "democratic" elections. But why not forget about "democracy" and "elections" and all that, and lobby to the Israelis and American neocons to nuke the whole country? Wouldn't it be much easier?

Ali234

Between me and you, it's you voting for the tyrannical system. I'm not! I'm only condoning capital punishment for traitors. To be voted democratically of course, someday, unlike the deaths that come out of the prisons belonging to those you support. Difference... THAT's how out of touch with reality you are!

So have you heard the joke about the guy who wanted to kill the bear?

Parham

Yes, but only a tyrannical mind considers voting and promoting reforms as treason. And may I remind you that there are 30 million people voting. Now what's your next step? Perhaps start building concentration camps to fit all those traitors in? After all you should prepare yourselves for the day you topple the "regime" and take revenge on all those traitors who wanted to make their lives better, despite all your calls for destruction.

Ali1234

Even in a democracy (which we are far from now), there's a place for judgment for treason. I don't think you're denying that we don't have a democratic state. If you're refuting that, then I don't know what to be telling you anymore...

Parham

See, you are just proving my point. Now you've moved from baseless accusations and labeling to calling for execution and murderer. Shows how much you truly believe in democracy, freedom of speech, human rights and all the other things you preach.

I hope people can see how much those who ask them to boycott the elections based on "democratic values" truly believe in those values themselves.

Ali1234

I'm very sorry that people such as yourself actually exist. People who deny murder and torture, people who deny freedom and democracy to their own people are really only good under the ground. If I had to condone capital punishment for any case it would be for people like you, who with lies and deceit only spread all the ugliness we've seen happen in our country.
Shame on you.

Parham

I am sure people don't need a "ghayem" like you to tell them what's right and wrong and save them from being fooled by "green candidate".

People are intelligent enough to know what's good for them, and no amount of your sensationalist nonsense and baseless accusations and labeling of others as murderers and torturers will stop them from making the right choices.

It's really sad to see that at the end of the day the Rajavist, Shahollahis, and other so-called "opposition" (like yourself) share the same mentality and approach. You don't want to see any signs of hope and progress in Iran unless it is under your own banner. And whenever you are cornered in a debate, you suddenly drop your "democratic" mask and show your true face by insulting and accusing your opponents of all kinds of atrocities. Too much ego to fit in with the rest of the nation.

Ali1234

No, avamfarib are those who kill and torture people and yet dare send "green" candidates while they give those people no real choice, and are so vaghih (like yourself) to come debate things on and on here.

And I'm not your friend. Oh no, I'm not!

Parham

OK sure :))

Out of the 36-7 million Iranians eligible to vote, 30 millions of them participate in the elections. That's A LOT of ears to cut my friend.

And "avam farib" are those who are trying to convince people that they will never achieve anything on their own and they need YOU to tell them what's good or bad for them.

Ali1234

Asabani shodi? :)
Bibin agha, it's two people in the 5 that they interviewed in that video. That's not bad - it makes the proportion 40% - plus, one doesn't hear what the taxi driver is saying.
That's why people like you are so scared and pouring here and there on various web sites to stop the flow of non-votes. It's because you KNOW people have had it with you and your type, that if things turn, your "tikke bozorge" will be your ear. You KNOW making people vote because they only have a choice between goo and feces will make them angrier in the long term, but you have no other choice, because you can't think of anything else, and you can't change your ways either as limited as you are in your way of thinking.
Avamfaribi ta key??
Bazam begam? :)

Parham

I haven't been selective with any facts and I have not distorted anything you said. All I did was to show you the contradiction and inconsistencies in your own argument, and it seems to make you very uncomfortable. Aayeneh chon naghsheh to benmoond raast, khod shekaan aayeneh shekastan khataast.

Wow, "two" people said they wouldn't vote! That's a lot compared to the massive demonstrations and gatherings for Mousavi and all the student associations, intellectuals, activists, artists who have urged people to vote. I am really wondering, do you even follow the news? Even Daftar Tahkim called for people to vote and even supported Karoubi. Even the most radical elements of the opposition who boycotted the elections last time, are now calling for people to vote for God's sake! BUT the two people who said that they are not voting prove that people in Iran are boycotting the elections?!!!

You know what? Go on and keep turning your back to the Iranian people. Follow the same path and a few years from now, you'll be like those delusional L.A tv hosts who sit in front of the camera and ask people to revolt.

These two were also political activists one day:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrXO4s7tyMY

Ali1234

Seems you really insist on dictating to me what I think and what I don't (and where I live and where I don't, which is actually even more amazing!!).

If that's how you want to go on with this discussion, then there's really nothing to add. I'll have to leave you in your delusion and just read back that I'm being condescending to you by saying that. So be it, then!

If what's there in history (which is not even that far) doesn't satisfy you, if what you see in a video on this same site right now, on the main page (see "election atmosphere"), where at least two people living inside Iran say they won't vote, I don't know what to tell you anymore. You would just like to refute reality, be extremely selective in what you choose to cite and then even twist that! Wow, that makes me very comfortable to go out and vote for Mousavi now.

But I tell you what, knowing you this way, I know when Mousavi will have gotten elected and after 4 years we come back here while not much will have happened, you'll be sitting here again refuting everything and it will go on and on and on. So Mr. il Dottore, I'll have to leave you here on that. Nothing will ever change in your case. I'm actually sorry to have even wasted my time debating anything with you. :)

See ya!

Parham

Well, if you think that people are not "militating" in Iran, then you must have been asleep for the past few years. Lots of people are militating for their rights and to move the country forward towards democracy and again whether you see it or not, they HAVE made great progress. The Iran today is simply NOT comparable to what it was 20 years ago. And you are dismissing the hard struggles of so many brave Iranians by saying that all the changes that we've seen so far were nothing but an I.R "strategy" to cope with international pressures!!

Again, I think the main problem with people like you is that you have not been involved in grassroots movements in Iran. Those who have, know what's best for them, hence they do participate in elections.

I am always amazed at people who live abroad and think they know better what's good and bad for people actually living and working in Iran. They are very condescending towards Iranians inside and constantly "warn" them about not being "fooled".

I have quite an idea of what's going to happen next; People will once again use the momentum of these elections to move forward, more newspapers will be published, more social issues will be debated, more movements will be created, more progress will be made, and of course none of it will be without struggling and sometimes pain. And 4 or 8 years from now, Iran will be a more advanced, free, educated, powerful and sophisticated country. And a bunch of people in the so-called "opposition" abroad, will be still here posting comment on Iranian.com about how people have been "fooled" by the "regime". And arguing about whether we should have a "monarchy" or a "republic". Talking about how great we were before Arabs invaded us 14 centuries ago and trying to find ways to get rid of "Islam". And reminding the foolish Iranians how nothing can be achieved under the banner of "velayateh faghigh".

Ali1234

Again, there is no double-standard.
I can (and do) "militate" against (for example) human rights violations of the US in (for example) Iraq, because I'm free to do so.

I also do go against the dictatorial ways of the ruling class in Iran, but there, I'm not free to do so.

So you see, you're comparing apples and oranges.

Parham

My point was quite simple. I said that whatever logic (based on historical events or whatever) you use to justify your boycotting stand in the Iranian elections can very well apply for any other elections anywhere else in the world.

Again, the U.S human rights violations against other nations has remained unchanged (it has actually increased) in the past 60 years. And no amount of voting for democrats or republicans, has brought any significant shift of paradigms in the U.S foreign policies. One can easily name all the cases of illegal interventions, military operations, coups, and sanctions conducted by U.S governments from the end of World War 2 to the last presidential elections, and "prove" the futility of participating in the U.S elections.

Yet you don't have any problem participating in their elections, and you still hope that the next president (who is always from one of the same 2 parties) will change things for the better. But God forbids an Iranian candidate talks about change! You will go beyond your ways to prove that he will fail or even prove that anything that has ever changed for the better in Iran was due to some "external events" (eg: mykonos trial...).

And it is to this double-standard that I was referring to.

More (Ali1234 and anyone actually)

I also urge you to read this if you can read Farsi, it's a real goodie and it's said very eloquently:

//news.gooya.com/politics/archives/2009/05/08...

Ali1234

The truth is you see inconsistency and double-standard because you want to see those things at any price, even at the price of making yourself pass for someone with a total lack of balance in their thinking.

I never said Hajjarian taking a bullet was a show -- just to get that out of the way. You're saying I did though!

So what if you think the reason why Obama will withdraw is different. It still leads me to believe that when he says he will, he will.

However, when Mousavi says he'll stand for human rights, I have every reason to believe it's just a show. All based on simple historical data and really simple logic.

You want to deny that, be my guest. Close your eyes and ears as much as you want, it won't change anything.

I didn't get your "60 years" comment. Where did you see me say there were 60 years of reforms? What is this? Some sort of a joke debate?

Look, I'll put it in bold again, maybe this time you'll understand, otherwise I have no other way of making you: It's not eight years of failed (supposed) reforms that make me boycott the elections -- or at least not just that. There are SO MANY reasons I don't even know if I could enumerate them all.

But for one thing, I refuse to vote in any kind of mock election, especially one that I believe only helps sublimate fascism in my country! I thought about it, and I think thirty years are ENOUGH! NO MORE!.

What is it you don't understand in that??

Parham

"I'd have a lot more reason to believe that, for example, Obama would withdraw from Iraq by voting for him than we, as Iranians, would have the chance to get substantial freedoms in Iran by supporting Mousavi."

No you don't. The U.S interventionist policies have been relatively the same for the past 60 years. And the number of "collateral damages" have exponentially increased from one military operation to another. Also, we are talking about a two party system where both parties are mostly owned by powerful interests and lobbies. But after having failed for 60 years to respect the human rights that you attach so much importance to, you would still give them a chance and participate in their elections. You would still vote for Obama despite the fact that his rhetoric of "change" and mild approach in foreign relations, might very well be due to the U.S weakening position as the superpower, and not an authentic shift of paradigms.

Now when it comes to Iran, 8 years (not 60) of "failed" (!) reforms is enough for you to boycott the elections. And its seems very easy for you to dismiss the struggles and hardship that so many reformists went through to make their country a better place. The guy took a bullet in his jaw for God's sake, and you still call it a show!

I am just pointing out to the inconsistency in your argument and obvious bias and double-standard in your analysis.

Ali1234

Okay, so I wouldn't have voted there either! LOL!

But seriously, the answer is actually very easy, meaning no thinking needed even! In fact, I can't even believe what I'm reading!

I'd have a lot more reason to believe that, for example, Obama would withdraw from Iraq by voting for him than we, as Iranians, would have the chance to get substantial freedoms in Iran by supporting Mousavi. Remember, we've ALREADY had that previous experience through eight years of Khatami. He said he was "only a tadarokatchi" in the end! Weren't you there? :)

One country has a rather limiting constitution, the other is based on the opposite!

More, I'd be able to actually militate against what I don't believe in if I lived in the US. If I wanted to that in Iran, I'd be thrown in jail, perhaps tortured and perhaps even killed! Remember?

I mean, is there even an argument here? I CANNOT believe your reasoning there!

To Parham

You said: "if I were American, I would have participated and voted for Obama."

Well, that only shows the inconsistency of your argument. Based on your own logic, one can very well argue that the democrats and republicans in the U.S are both serving the same structure of power that has been waging wars, exploiting, arranging coups, installing dictatorships for at least the past 60 years. After all, wasn't it during the Clinton administration that 5000 Iraqi kids were dying every month because of the sanctions (sanctions including on child medicines..etc)? Would that deter you, Mr human right activist, from voting in the U.S elections? Would your voting stop the U.S support for the corrupted and criminal Saudi royal family, or Israel's crimes? Would it stop billions of tax dollars to be poured into its ever growing military machine, with over 200 bases around the world, including a few ones all around your own country?!

But for some reason, you would still vote on their elections! And your "intelligence" doesn't seem to be insulted by the narrow options that they present you. Is it because all their crimes happened into a "context" that makes them justified for you, or it is because voting does make a difference?

Just think about it.

and by the way... (Ali1234)

So what if Khatami talks abour "dialog of civilizations" and Ahmadinejad about the holocaust being a lie? That makes a bigger bunch of hypocrites out of Khatami and his gang (including Mousavi), doesn't it?
At least the other guy stands for what he believes!

To the contrary of what a lot of Iranians think --and this was also the case during the Pahlavi monarchy-- it's NOT all in the image! The goo is bound to surface one way or another, and that's what matters!

Ali1234

Well no, if I were American, I would have participated and voted for Obama.

So regarding your assessment of the case about me living in or out of Iran, you're supposing again, and I'll leave it at that! So what are you saying, that all people inside Iran want to go vote and will? You're simply wrong. In fact, that's one of the biggest lies you people tell the rest of us. That should be easy to see!

More, you know people voted for Hitler way back too. Did that make them right? I don't think the voting rate will even come close to Hitler's (thank God!) in this case anyway. Look, it's easier than you think: I refuse to vote for anyone who represents fascism in any shape of form in my country. Is that hard to grasp? Hope not!