VOTE

Laleh: What solution?

You did not suggest any solution. You only repeat your worn out slogan, and have done it so often that you have actually started believing it yourself!

You say your solution is "resisting the IRI." Fine. But, to what end? What is the end scenario? In other words, how will resisting the IRI - which I support if, in a practicable and well-defined manner, will lead to tangible results, and is not sheer slogan the way you speak of it - lead to a change of government? Speaking in generic terms - "resisting" the IRI - and purely based on hollow, meaningless slogans will not get us anywhere.

You already said that for 30 years people have been resisting. Let us suppose that you are right. Then, clearly, 30 years of resistance - the way you prescribe - have not resulted in any tangible results. The people are no closer to replacing the system with a democratic one than they were, say 10 or 20 years ago.

So, set aside your slogans. Give us a detailed plan, such as

Step 1: we do this.

Step 2: we do that

......

Step n: we will do x and y

The end scenario: armed confrontation, "velvet" revolution, foreign intervention and invasion.... Specify the end scenario please. 

Then, we will all know that you have a well-defined plan for reaching "sar manzel-e maghsood," i.e., a democratic society.

By the way, no amount of you calling me a supporter of IRI will scare me, rattle me, make me think twice about my thinking, etc. I have been in this business too long to care about such nonsense. One does not enter the kitchen, unless one can take the heat, and heat I can take. Your enemity toward my religion is also well-noted!

Mammad

enemies of our nation (to Laleh)

Laleh says: "It is too late, hamvatan. Thirty years of bloodshed and thievery have exposed the mullahs for what they are: the enemies of our nation."

Laleh, enemies of our nation includes some reactionary, ruthless, and corrupt mullahs, it does not however exclude extremist/fascist elements of opposition, many of whom actively support war/sanctions against Iran. Where do you stand on those issues? Who/what is your alternative?

Aiding and Abetting the Enemy

Mammad wrote: “As I had expected fully, you have done nothing but expressing hot, hollow, meaningless rhetoric.”

There are clearly pronounced distinctions between our approaches to a recognized, existing dilemma. I dare to dream of an Iran free of Islamic oppression while you choose to work within the framework of IRI to salvage Islam.

It is too late, hamvatan. Thirty years of bloodshed and thievery have exposed the mullahs for what they are: the enemies of our nation.

The line in the sand is drawn. Your continued cooperation with a murderous regime only prolongs this darkness. Call these “hot, hollow, meaningless rhetoric” if you wish, but please don’t expect me to aid and abet the enemy.

Dr, Strangelove's solution

The bottom line of the Islamist nuke lover’s solution is if you can’t demonstrably change the oppressive Islamist regime within the parameters that are set so it would never succeed, do the next best thing as he does, join it.

 Advocate the viability of its “Islamist Democracy”, become a cheerleader for its showpiece “presidents”, advocate participation in its stacked "elections" and at times even arrange “polling stations” , advocate for the regime to have nuke.

 What the Islamist nuke lover, his guru and other Islamists/Anti-Semites and their likeminded lefty allies do is aiding and abating the mortal enemies of Iran and Iranian nation and label it as doing something positive. 

FAIR

Even though i admire the principle on which your idea is based on, we must keep in mind that this takes a lot of patience and persistence in getting many iranians involved. And one thing is for sure that it may take a heck of a lot more than $50 to run the operations. It is a noble idea, but one thing i am very certain of is that people in iran know that pretty much everyone outside the borders is on their side and supports their struggles. And also as you said yourself, iranians are great at seeking information on their own, and by now there are so many issues on which theyhave educted themselves on. So what i am trying to say is, as noble as this move is, it may not end up serving a purpose after all and make the desirable impact. But. you are right, even if it does not work we'd be only out $50 and not much more.

Laleh

As I had expected fully, you have done nothing but expressing hot, hollow, meaningless rhetoric.

Mammad

Fair

Oh definitely! I, for one, would love that!
And I'd love to have the content "pushed" to my inlets via new ways (into my car in Iran via new satellite push methods for example), or anywhere actually -- as those ways are becoming more and more possible.

Only... And I don't want to get too cynical there, but knowing my compatriots, we'll get rumors running that we're in fact funded by the Brits or the Israelis, etc. so good luck trying to keep that "independent" image! But no, definitely, that's a good idea and I hope you'll find an audience for that type of programming. I know a lot of people who praise PBS, but I don't know very many who actually listen to it...

Very well said Parham

You are absolutely correct:) Such great men require greater commitment than I suggest here.

Regarding the other channels, you are right, there are other good sources of information and Iranians at home are very good about informing themselves. However, as long as foreign governments fund and run them, their intentions will always be questioned, even though I consider all these outlets to be valuable sources of information. If ordinary Iranians run a radio station, and we make its budget completely transparent- i.e. show tax returns or something that prove all its budget is through private donations, I think it would be a big statement and morale booster for our compatriots back home, as it shows we think about them and want to talk with them, and not just shout.

Furthermore, the prime function of many of these current outlets is to provide news and entertainment. VOA has some great guests as well. But I am talking about cultural and educational content as well- like put a one hour a week history lesson where Iranian history free from any censorship is taught (e.g. struggles of Babak Khorramdin, etc.). Or another one teaching modern forms of government, like a civics lesson, which explains that you can have a modern government with democratic representation without giving up your identity (Persian, Islamic, whatever) and bring examples around the world of this (e.g. Ireland, Chile, etc.) Or another one hour a week about the lives of women's activists throughout our history, especially modern history. Other programs about our literature which is not filtered through the Islamic Republic- e.g. journey through Shahnameh and other downplayed by IR but extremely important Persian literature. I can think of many such valuable programming which is in nobody's interest other than Iranian peoples', so it never gets broadcast. So kind of like an Iranian public service broadcast funded by Iranians.

Of course I realize this is wishful thinking:) Just a penny for my thoughts maybe?:)

-FAIR

Fair

Well I'm glad all Mossadeq and the leaders of Mashrootiat envisaged can't actually be summarized into a radio station that would run on a collection of $50/year/person, cause we'd be in even worse dire straits than we are now... :-)
But to reply to your thought about satellite channels, unfortunately I think they've got the right formula into attracting a maximum amount of audience. Now whether that audience is very significant in what you would like to do is another question. But look at it this way: VOA, the BBC, Radio Israel and so many other similar radios already have what you are talking about broadcast into Iran -- so you'd have to compete against those for the number of listeners. Would you like to do that?

Still Following Mullahs’ Lead

Mammad wrote: “What is your solution madame for moving Iran on a democratic path?”

My solution is exactly what Iranians have been doing for the last thirty years: Oppose IRI. Whether you live inside or outside Iran, regardless of your political affiliation, we must oppose the regime in Iran.

Iranian political movements have matured tremendously from the era when armed uprisings of a handful of guerillas were the norm. Iranians from all walks of life have been organizing and fighting IRI for thirty years. These struggles aren’t limited to political expressions such as boycotting a fabricated election. Our people are demonstrating everyday in the streets of Iran when they break Islamic laws. Passive resistance has become a national pass time in our country.

Similar to thirty years ago, Iranian political activists are still confused. Instead of leading the masses towards a better tomorrow, our activists are once again following the mullahs' lead by calling for active participation in elections that only validate an oppressive regime.

Enough is enough! Wake up and read the writing on the wall: The Islamic Republic of Iran is a murderous regime and must go!

Sadly I must agree..

... with both of you. Especially the part of all of us believing we are experts:)

Indeed Khomeini had the track record of fighting and struggling against the shah. But have we not other people with similar track record, albeit they are less visible? For example student leaders, human rights activists, writers, etc.?

And Parham, do any of the satellite programs today actually have quality programming that actually convey a message to our people? I am all for entertainment and a breath of fresh air, but I am acually talking about using the channel to educate and inform people with things that their government blocks from them, and at the same time to listen to their needs and reactions. I am not sure the current Iranian channels do this.

You both inspire me to think that the change we desire to bring along in our country actually starts from within ourselves. Let us start coming down from our "satan's donkey", stop proclaiming ourselves experts, learn to respect each other and learn from each other. Whenever we educated westernized super duper smart Iranians abroad achieve this change within ourselves, and whenever we can spare $50 a year, maybe then we are ready for the radio station. No?

If not, then most humbly I would like to pronounce that this Islamic Republic, and not a democratic republic as envisioned by Mossadeq and the leaders of Mashrootiat, is all that we deserve. And to these gentlemen I must say, "thank you and nice try".

-FAIR

Fair

Thank you for your comment. Your point regarding Ayatollah Khomeini is well-taken. However, he had a history of fighting the Shah - had gone to exile exactly for that reason - had an army of loyal and dedicated disciples, and was known very well throughout Iran. He had access to the vast network of masques throughout Iran through which he could propagate his messages. And, to be fair, he was at a distinctly different level of stature.

Your solution sounds fine on paper. I am not sure, however, how practicable it can be, given that we Iranians have a "distinguished" record of believing that we are all experts, each of us believes that he/she should lead everything, we cannot tolerate any view that deviates from ours - even though our democracy screams are defeaning, etc. 

Just look at what some people write in this column and how they attack - not criticize - others simply because they do not like what they read. You talk about A, and someone attacks you for B, totally unrelated, and even then lies, fabricates, and misrepresents what you says, only because they want to "oghdeh khod raa khaali konand."

Mammad

Fair

That radio station will have to go against so many satellite dish TV channels that prove otherwise daily! And that's with a big "unfortunately"...

Dear Mammad

Not to disagree with you, as we are nobody to tell the masses in Iran what they should or should not do.

But I would like to still remind the readers, that another man living abroad over 30 years ago, sat down in his room, spewed talk (which was cheap), and somehow people listened to him and translated that "cheap talk" to overthrowing an entire government. So I guess you can be entitled to have influence over the masses, just depends who you are, and how many people are listening to you.

Here is my solution- we Iranians always say educate the people. So let's take each of us here living abroad- pay $50 a year and set up one good radio station, and bring the best, most informed Iranians of Iranian and world affairs and have them speak to the people about everything- the foundations of a modern government, the history of mashrootiat, the history of Iranian resistance to Arab and other foreign domination, and search for identity, economics, technology, other countries' stories, modern world history, literature, etc. etc.. There are so many people that would have much to add to this discussion, let them speak on the radio. Have round table discussions with Iranian experts, demonstrate the benefits of free civil discussion. Ask Iranians back home to give their suggestions by phone and email and fax, ask them, "What can we do to help? What do you need most from us?".

Who knows, we might actually become popular. For once, people back home might actually come away with the idea that Iranians abroad actually give a damn about their country more than their Mercedes and stock options. They might actually conclude that this time the voice of the Iranian from abroad is actually listening to them and not preaching to them how much more they should sacrifice. They might actually impressed that it is Iranians, not the US government or the BBC who has to put together a quality program that talks to them about Iran, and not doubt our legitimacy.

And then we might not get anywhere. What then? Well, sorry, we all lost $50 and some of our time.

Any takers?

-FAIR

Laleh

Assuming that everything that you say is 100% correct (which is not), let's take this to the next step:

What is your solution madame for moving Iran on a democratic path?

Yes, talk is cheap, as you say. But, "talk is cheap" is applicable to you also, if you do not propose a viable alternative. You and I can have great slogans. But, the bottom line is: What is the solution? Please enlighten us.

I live in the US. I have no influence whatsoever over the "masses" living in Iran, and I should not have - I am not entitled to it - because I live here. It is the "masses" that must grapple with everyday difficulties of life in Iran, not me. It is, therefore, them that must decide what they should do. From southern California I do not issue secular to religious fatwas and tell people what to do.

Because I do not have any influence, I am also not - cannot be - a tool for pacifying the people. I only express my opinion, just like you. 

So, let's hear your solution for this terrible situation.

Mammad

An Allegiance to Islam not to Iran

Mammad wrote: “No one is under the illusion that these are democratic and fair elections. They are not, but they are competitive. The right and left have contrasting view, which makes it possible to express and discuss at least part of what people want.”

Competitive over what? Contrasting views over what? How to loot and plunder the national wealth? How to torture political prisoners? How to commit mass murders quietly and cover up the crimes? How to conduct chain killings? How to import narcotics and distribute them amongst the young? How to censor any form of media opposing the rulers? How to drag women over the asphalt to teach the rest to observe the correct Islamic hejab? How to stone an adulteress?

These are fundamental questions plaguing the Islamic Republic of Iran. The “reformist” movement has chosen to brush these issues under the rug, failing to address the involvement of its leaders in murders, thievery, and oppression. . The attitude is this: “So what? Bad stuff happened in the past. Stop whining and start participating in the election process.”

What you fail to see is that the wound is deep and open. It is still bleeding…

When the system vets the candidates and disqualifies them from participation, when the media and the internet are censored, when the dissidents are imprisoned and murdered, the election becomes a sham, a tool in the hands of the rulers to manipulate the masses.

Iranian people don’t want to “discuss” what they want. Our nation expresses its only wish loudly and clearly everyday: freedom from Islamic oppression. The reformist movement is incapable of giving us this freedom because it is led by the government insiders whose allegiance is to Islam not to Iran.

The reformist movement is the last breaths of the Islamic Republic of Iran. You are a tool in the hands of the rulers. You are being used to pacify the masses…

Nukes and election (to Fred)

Fred, it appears that mammad is not interested in talking about your favorite obsession (obsession with nukes), but I am. In fact my main criteria for choosing a candidate is nukes! I will choose the one who will more likely make Iran nuke capable. ... as I know a nuke capable Iran will shatter the dreams of foreign interventionists such as yourself. ... of course I hope Iran is already nuke capable or better, has a few nukes, as a person who does not believe in god I believe in deterrence by nukes.

Dr. Strangelove

The Islamist nuke lover says:

“So, who gives a hoot to what you think? You continue in your fantasies and hallucinations to "challenge" me, and I continue to publish in the most important places.”

 Well it seems at least one person and not just any ordinary person, rather an extraordinary person who “continue to publish in the most important places” gives enough “hoot”.

 Then again publishing in the most important places does not say much, does it? If it does then this extraordinary Islamist nuke lover person is in the company of a whole lot of unsavory characters with few that are not. 

 The self claimed “world famous scientist” also says:“Khatami could not do what Ahmadinejad did (in terms of asserting his authority) because he did not have the backing of the Sepaah, and was not willing on take on them. That is why I said if the president is tough...”  If that is so then what is wrong with the current showpiece Islamist prez who according to the Islamist nuke lover does have the backing of the armed thugs? What good would his favorite Islamist horsey, Karubi, do without the “backing of the Sepah”. Hasn’t Karubi as the head of the Islamist Consultative body at the time already proven his subservience to the Absolute Islamist Leader with his infamous “Governmental order”?

  The problem with the Islamist nuke lover’s version of the events and how thing should be, could be and must be is that neither history nor unfolding events on the grounds in the occupied Iran cooperate with his version.   BTW, except the momentary truth telling impulse in the form of his famous “crux of the issue” declaration the Islamist nuke lover has never again had such truth telling impulses.  

Are you going to vote Fred!?

Fred, as I have told you before, I am waiting for you to challenge mammad and inflict some damage on him! You keep disappointing me,...., the subject is Iranian election and you nuke it, ...., what is this mendacity?
Anyway, going back to the subject, are you going to vote?

Mammad

thanks for the link.

interested to know, why Karroubi rather than Mousavi?

Fredo C

The more you write, the stronger the stench of your baseless hatred becomes, and the more obvious it becomes to me why Fredo C perfectly fits you.

1. Despite all of your attempts in sounding sophisticated and knowledgeable, you know nothing about what is going on in Iran. The best evidence is that you just threw up some mumbo jumbo, without saying even one word about what I said. The reason is obvious: You have nothing to say.

Khatami could not do what Ahmadinejad did (in terms of asserting his authority) because he did not have the backing of the Sepaah, and was not willing on take on them. That is why I said if the president is tough...

Now, does that mean that Khatami was not a good man? Absolutely not. The best evidence for it is the hostility and contempt that Iran's reactionaries show toward him

In 1980 after Ronald Reagan finished his presidential debate with Jimmy Carter, he looked into camera and said, "ask yourself. Were you better off 4 years ago or now?" One can ask the same question about Iran of 4 years ago and Iran now.

I repeat, in an undemocratic country like Iran, even one good man can make a difference.

2. What is your solution for Iran, Mr. know everything, present everywhere, expose everyone?

3. Read my latest article on Antiwar.com, posted last Wednesday.

There I discuss the crux of the issue regarding Iran's nuclear program vis-a-vis Israel.  I have not hidden anything. There it is, for everyone to see. And, check the internet to see the impact of the article.

Only you, in your hallucinations, think that I have hidden my opinion, or that you have caught me, or that you have made a discovery! And that is not surprising. You believe in nothing but throwing mud at people. That is why your thinking - if one can call your mumbo jumbo thinking - changes all the time.

So, who gives a hoot to what you think? You continue in your fantasies and hallucinations to "challenge" me, and I continue to publish in the most important places.

Mammad

Dr. Strangelove

The Islamist nuke lover says:

 “In an undemocratic society like Iran even one good person (suxch as Mohammad Khatami) at high levels of power can make a difference.

(b) Ahmadinejad did a lot of things that many people thought are not possible. Practically all of them were bad, but the fact is, many times he did not pay attention to what Ayatollah Khamenei thought. He went ahead and did it (like dissolving many parts of the bureacracy). So, that goes to show that if the president is tough, he can do certain things. “

In praising his Islamist ideal, Khatami, and in the next sentence by saying Ahmadinejad did as he wished in certain things, the nuke lover essentially admits to what a fraud his “good person” khatami was who infamously said that he is just a powerless apparatchik.

That aside, the Islamist nuke lover says the Iranian society is undemocratic, the “elections” are not fair and in his long long and yes long write-up he refers the readers to, he is pushing for nuke for the Islamist republic.

The obvious question is why a presumably sane person would want what he labels as undemocratic society as opposed to the undemocratic Islamist government where the “elections” are frauds to have nuke? The Islamist nuke lover’s advocacy for participating in the  election fraud is yet another conundrum.

BTW, the nuke lover should have injected his by now famous crux of the issue declaration in its entirety in his long long "crux of the issue" titled write-up. Here it is should he need it:

“The crux of the issue about Iran's nuclear program is, in my opinion, as follows: If Iran has the ability to make the bomb on a short notice, it becomes unattackable. That is not something that the US and Israel can tolerate. They want to be the hegemone(SIC) of the Middle East. “

Election is not just voting

Any election is a process and consists of many components, only one of which is voting.

Several aspects of what is going on in Iran right now are very significant:

1. Belief in the necessity of political parties is taking deep roots in Iran. People, from the common, every day ones, to activists, are increasingly expressing their views in the framework of the group to which they belong. That means party discipline is emerging.

For example, the right wing knows that Ahmadinejad is terrible, but a significant part of it is sticiking with him.

2. The political groups themselves are increasingly acting as true political parties. Fior example, Mahdi Karroubi and his National Trust Party have refused to go away in favor of Mir Hossein Mousavi.

3. People are forcing what they want on the candidates. Many civil society groups have met the candidates, especially the two reformist ones, to tell them what they want.

4. In response, the two reformist candidates have adjusted their platforms and programs to address the issues. Mousavi has issued a sort of manifesto about what he thinks of respect for human rights. His wife, Zahra Rahnavard, has emphasized that Iran must ratify the international convention against discrimination against women.

Karroubi has courageously attacked the Sepaah commanders, the Guardian Council, and has spoken about the need for rervising the Constitution.

These are not theater. They are real. But, even if they are not real, they still help educate people. They still help them recognize how far Iran is from a democratic society, and how it might get there.

5. Ayatollah Khamenei's representative to Sepaah, Hojatoleslam Saeedi, spoke about who the Leader wants. That got circulated, and was harshly criticized by even Ahmadinejad. Saeedi retreated. That goes to show that things are not the way some people try to picture in this column.

6. The net result of all of this and more is that, the civil society is making progress in Iran. Things will not happe over night. For Iran to become democratic, it must first develop strong civil society.

So, even if one does not want to vote, one can contribute by being active in such discussions. In my opinion, boycotting will not go anywhere. Ahmadinejad was elected, not because people voted, but because people did not vote. A lot of people are realizing this.

Even Dariush Homayun, the monarchists "theoretician," stated that boycotting is useless.

No one is under the illusion that these are democratic and fair elections. They are not, but they are competitive. The right and left have contrasting view, which makes it possible to express and discuss at least part of what people want.

At the same time, the Ahmadinejad experience showed us, in my opinion, two things:

(a) In a democratic society it is the system that works. Leaders are important, but they come and go. In an undemocratic society like Iran even one good person (suxch as Mohammad Khatami) at high levels of power can make a difference.

(b) Ahmadinejad did a lot of things that many people thought are not possible. Practically all of them were bad, but the fact is, many times he did not pay attention to what Ayatollah Khamenei thought. He went ahead and did it (like dissolving many parts of the bureacracy). So, that goes to show that if the president is tough, he can do certain things.

For those of you who might be interested, I suggest to visit //TehranBureau.com I have posted a four-part article there, describing all the political groups, the candidates, their histories, and the latest developments (as of last Wednesday).

Who would I vote for? Mahdi Karroubi.

Mammad

What if ... ;0)

Actually the Four guys can do us a BIG Favor and collectively commit suicide ...

S Korea stunned by Roh's suicide

Just kidding But Imagine if Khamenei did the same .. LOL

What a Wonderful World this would be ...

Poor Fellow if only it had happened in North Korea instead ... ;0(

Wake Up You're Dreaming!

Iran's election is not an election. It is a sham designed to make it appear as if Iranians are choosing what the clerics have already chosen.

The votes aren't freely cast. The government guards insure that.

The votes aren't even counted. The government counters insure that.

While you are rightfully enchanted with the voting process,
in Iran your dream is a nightmare.

There is no Santa Claus.

There is no Easter Bunny,

And there is no such thing as a free and fair Iranian election.

If all you have to choose from is: Satan, The Devil, El Diablo, and Goofy. That's not a vote. And that's not an election.

That's why people don't want to vote. 

You Can't Always Get what You want

getting tired, don't get excited too now :-)

That's not good for your health. I thought you'd enjoy the great vlevety voice of Sinatra,  and would find those lines about "the end is near" and sayin' it straight, "my way" as cute, relevant and enjoyable as I found them ;-) 

You think Sinatra's political view of 50s and 60s should interfere with that fun, Okido, don't listen to it, but you'll miss a beatiful song, and an eternally beautiful voice!

wait a min. getting tired,

So you're sure that Ahminejad will win?!!

Forget about anti-IRI people here, but so many people in Iran and many from this very site are for Mousavi, how did you conclude that Ahmadinejad is a sure winner?! Some here were even saying that RAHBAR has taken his support away from Ahmadinejad. Recently, Ghalibaaf has put his weight heavily behind Mousavi and I heard hezb kargozaran too. Although I still will vote for Ahmadinejad and think that most Iranians are for him, I'll completely respect their choice if Mousavi is elected.

Not sure what exactly you are talking about Zion. Although I don't agree with a lot of things that Zion says, but I respect her for stating her opinion clearly, reasonably, and she backs her arguments with sources. You can have a meanigful debate with Zion since she's a learned person just like Fred, although we tend to have totally opposite views. This is unlike Mehdi Mazloom for example, who has similar tendencies but is proven himself to be too ignorant to carry a meaningful conversation, like few others in here.  So you got my opinion about Zion, and few others in here.

jaleho

sir, i just like to know if consoolgari is open on memorial day monday?   may i ask for you by your code name, i have a 'mored' for you to look at.  thanks in advance.

Jaleho, Khejalat Bekesh

Even assuming that you were right with any of your twisted pro Jomhorieh Eslami arguments, WHICH YOU ARE NOT, this is not the way to present it. You have adopted the same arrogant style as your hero Antarinejad. Your extremist ideology belongs to satleh ashghal like the rest of the Islamist and their apologists do.

You do a much better job with your Anti-Semitic propaganda than your pro IRI propaganda.  I suggest you just do your job as the resident Anti-Semite Zionist hunter instead of the resident Pro IRI apologist. There are much better people than you in the Pro IRI department who have better manners and logic.

Peace to all and a wish of a lot  more wisdom for our misguided hamvatan Jaleho!

OMG, Frank Sinatra?!

I just checked the link you provided in your response to me. Frank Sinatra?! "I did it my way"?!

Can you be unaware that whatever his status as a musician, Frank Sinatra and especially this song of his are the very emobidment of the most ignorant, my-way-or-the-highway Vietnam war-supporter, Mafioso thug, ugly American of the 1950s and 60s? This is the support you come up with for your attitude?

Mashallah be shoma.