DEBATE

Fred: Mammad wants to avoid

Fred: Mammad wants to avoid a civil war not to repackage the IRI. I do believe that you should want the same.

Could the rule of the clerics have been avoided?

... asks Amini.

The answer is YES. If the double standards of the Jebhe-Melli and Nehzat Azadi (former followers of Mosaddegh), who joined Khomeini and gave him the much needed political clout, had not deceived a nation into believing that Khomeini's was a secular rule. Please meet the members of Bazargan cabinet and see how many of them were attached to Jebhe Melli and Nehzat Azadi:

دکتر احمدزاده ( جبهه ملی ایران ) ٬ مهندس تاج ( جبهه ملی ایران ) ٬ دکتر مبشری ( جبهه ملی ایران )٬ دکتر اسلامی ( کانون نویسندگان ) ٬ ناصر میناچی (عضو هیئت امنای حسینه ارشاد) ٬ دکتر یزدی ٬( نهضت آزادی ایران ) ٬ دکتر سحابی ( نهضت آزادی ایران ) ٬ دکتر شریعتمداری ( روشنفکران ) ٬ احمد صدر حاج سید جوادی ( نهضت آزادی ایران )٬ مهندس بازرگان ( نهضت آزادی ایران )٬ داریوش فروهر ( رهبر حزب ملت ایران )٬ مهندس کتیرایی (انجمن اسلامی مهندس )٬ دکتر شکوهی ( جبهه ملی ایران ) ٬ مهندس طاهری قزوینی (نهضت آزادی ایران ) ٬ علی اردلان ( جبهه ملی ایران ) ٬ دکتر سامی ( جاما ) ٬ تیمسار ریاحی

see the corresponding picture:

//i39.tinypic.com/30be3qp.jpg

FR

The phantom “ Constitution”

No matter how much Islamists try to rewrite history with their phantom “democratic Constitution” which even if it existed means nothing for the fact remains the late Bazargan was a clueless benevolent Islamist who until it was too late had no idea with whom  and what he was associating and messing with. At the end he repented and did so publicly but he will always be remembered as a clueless Islamist tool in the service of the Islamist Rapists.

Mossadegh knew it, ergo when Bazargan was proposed to him to be the Minster of Education he rejected him based on his childish Islamist tendencies.   

What the Islamist nuke lobby and other Islamists propose with their you can not have a secular Iran in the short term nonsense is their transparently Islamist attempt at  repackaging of  the Islamist Rapist Republic to replace their current Islamist Rapist Republic.

One can either be secular as he/she claims with total separation of religion and state or a charlatan Islamist with excuses to continue the mixing of the two, the half pregnant solution.  

Charlatan Ali Shariati disciples Islamist nuke lobby and the rest still do not get it, the experiment turned out ugly, religion, any religion and state do not mix, you’ve done enough damage, let it go!

Great Article Fariba Jaan ( Also: Rennaissance Vs Dark Ages)

I am hopeful in the coming to Age of a Persian Rennaissance in the Future. The Only Question today is When and How that will appear. Only Time will say.

Beh Omideh Oon Rooz Dar Ayendehee Por Shokooh Azad Va Democrat Tar ...

PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY: First Public Gathering of the Iranian Majlis (1906)

pictory: Mossadegh The Gentleman (1950's)  

I would just like to add these links to some of my blogs as food for thought and further debate. Up to everyone to draw their own conclusions or use as reference in other blogs or writings if they wish:

BBC Persian coverage on the CIA Coup (Counter Coup?) of 1953 with historian Mashallah Adjoudani and former Imperial Iran's Ambassador to the UK Parviz Radji:

NOTE: Parviz Radji (who has been a harsh critic of the Shah's last years of reign in his 1983 autobiography In the Service of the Peacock Throne, particularly for abandoning Hoveyda to his sad fate) say's the Shah had NOTHING to do with the Coup. See : Ex Ambassador Parviz Radji interview by Cyrus KADIVAR)

HISTORY OF VIOLENCE: Amir Abbas Entezam Chained to Hospital Bed (1990's)

Shapour Bakhtiar on REGIME CHANGE  and the Anniversary of the Constitutional Revolution (1989) :

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNBFTWXz5_Q

Reza Pahlavi on the anniversary of the Constitutional Revolution (2009):

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFjjjGwEDkQ

On Secularism and Enlightment:

HISTORY FORUM: Nader Naderpour on Iran's Constitutional Revolution and European Rennaissance (1996)

HISTORY FORUM: Ahmad Kasravi's Life, Assassination and Intellectual Legacy 64 years On ...

PARIS GATHERING: Shapour Bakhtiar and Soroush Katibeh memory honored in Paris (FRANCE)

On Intellectuals and the Revolution:

HISTORY FORUM: Mashallah Ajoudani on Intellectuals and the Revolution

REPUBLICAN OFFSPRING: Massoud Rajavi at Tehran University during Presidential Campaign (1980)

IRI Think Tanks:

Flynt and Hillary Mann Leverett on Iran (Charlie Rose)

DOCUMENTARY: Training of the Future IRI Political Elite ( ARTE TV)

And Last But Not Least:

REZA's CALL: "From Theocracy to Democracy"- Reza Pahlavi at George Washington University (April 13th, 2010)

REZA's CALL: An Iranian Solidarnosc... by Darius KADIVAR

RESPONDING TO REZA's CALL: An Iranian Solidarnosc in the Making ... By Darius KADIVAR

Fereydoun Farokhzad -Role of the Artist and Politics - Refers to Greece and Poland's Solidarnosc:

Recommended BOOKS:

A Women for All Seasons: In Memory of Farokhroo Pārsā by Ardavan Bahrami

BOOK: EVEN AFTER ALL THIS TIME By Afschineh Latifi ( A Memoir )

Readings:

A Dialogue of Murder: A cautionary tale that must not be forgotten by Cyrus KADIVAR 

Dear Mammad

Thank you.

Azadeh

To "Shushtari"

Dear Shushtari:

Thank you for what you wrote and your sentiments towards the British government. I share with you the desire to someday find the grave of that British spy (whom so shamelessly has been praised in this self-expose) and dispose and dump my feelings all over her grave as well.

I dream of a day that no British would dare visiting Iran let alone having an embassy there and running that country for more than 200 years.

I spit on the face of any British, being an ambassador, a scholar or a tourist, being alive, post mortem or postumously that took advantage of Iranians hospitality and simplicities of our culture and stole our wealth, killed our heroes and then went back and wrote nasty memoirs about us.

As a nation, we will not be able to solve our problems with each other, unless first we reconcile our accounts with the British government and their stooges.

In my eyes, you are the true son of Persia.

Q

What I meant was that the Assembly of Constitutional Experts was not a true representative of all the groups and thinkings in Iran of that era. For one thing it was dominated by the clerics, although the Freedom Movement and others were also present. I do not know whether you remember it, but there were lots of discussions, protest, etc., at that time regarding the composition of the Assembly and who could or could not run for it.

Yes, Ayatollah Khomeini was immensely popular at that time, which explains why people voted for the constitution in 1979. At the same time, many people did not understand the implications of Velaayat-e Faghih. Finally, it was the revisions of 1988-89 that concentrated 80 percent of power in the hands of the Leader.

I still believe that Bazargan, whom I tremendously respect and consider as my role model (not that I am at his level, but just as a good man), made a historical mistake, even though it was purely due to his honesty and integrity. Bazargan was a man of his words.

Mammad

Azadeh khaanoum

If you read the present constitution, you will find that, aside from the principle of Velaayat-e Faghih (article 110) and related articles (that give the power to the Leader), it has many democratic articles. I am not claiming in any shape or form that it is a democratic constitution; it is not, but that it does have many such articles. Those are from Bazargan's draft, and are the ones that reformists always point to. In the Assembly of Constitutional Experts, they deleted some articles from Bazargan's draft, and added the reactionary articles to it.

I do not have a copy, although years ago I read it. A friend who was invloved with the Freedom Movement of Bazargan apparently has a copy. I have repeatedly asked him to give me a copy, but he denies that he has it, even though it was him who showed it to me! Dr. Ebrahim Yazdi, the current leader of the FM, recently called for cancelling the present constitution and implementing the Bazargan version, but even they have not posted it.

Mammad

Constitution by Bazargan

Dear Mammad,

I'm very interested to read the content of the Constitution Bazargan drafted. Would you be able to provide a copy of that or give a link? Maybe someone you know has a copy? Did the "Assembly of experts of the constitution" add to Bazargan's version, or did they draft a completely new Constituion from A to Z? Thanks. 

 Azadeh 

where is this idiot's grave????

I would like to pay my respects to her !!!!

This is what disgusts me about the british- they believe that they somehow are superior to Iran and it's people- that they somehow own our oil, and that our people our too stupid to appreciate such a vast, valuable resource.  Ever since 1908 when they found oil in gachsaran, khuzestan- these vultures have thought of iran, and its vast natural resources as somehow belonging to them.

To read about the mentality of idiots like this Lambert character proves that the british were nothing but leaches on the ass of the world- always looking for the next country to rob and pillage- see the examples in history, and all their 'colonies': INDIA, SOUTH AFRICA, CANADA, HONG KONG, ETC.   wherever there was wealth or anything of value, the british would show up and pillage!

That is what the world needs to know-

and what we see in our homeland today is a direct result of years of planning of the brits to keep their suckers in iran veins.....sucking away our wealth, until there is none left..

I pray that the world really gets to know these vultures' crimes against humanity- THEY ARE ANYTHING BUT 'GREAT' !!! 

Mammad,

I generally agree with your analysis of what happened to the constitution and how it changed in mid 1979. But whatever we, in retrospect, might call "historical error" in the document, we can't escape the fact that it was voted on fair and square. It's not a terribly convincing argument to say the constitutional suffered because there was a contitutional assembly.

Often times we tent to point to a specific event and decision and say "aha!" if only this was that, it would have been all "good". I think this is a oversimplification. It was the zeitgeist that gave the constitution its legitimacy, even through the assembly. In other words, if the people were ready to accept the content of such a constitution (which they were), it would have happened anyway, assembly or no assembly.

Don't forget the undisputed deity-level respect and obedience that Khomeini commanded at the time. The process was secondary.

Jamshid jan: That was

Jamshid jan: That was brilliant. thx..

Iran under the IRI is a

Iran under the IRI is a sickly, corrupt, dependent nation, not very different from Qajar Iran under Ahmad Shah.

Dear Free: That was like someone ba yek potk zad to saram meaning felt like someone pounded my head with a hammer. Although, I have always known that fact but to read it here in black and white saddened me to no end.

Ms. Amini

You have asked the right questions. Let me tell you what I think.

1. In my opinion, the best political system for Iran is a secular democratic republic, one in which Islam and government do not mix, and in which the clerics do not have any special rights. As a practicing Muslim, I believe this is in the best interest of our beloved Iran, as well as the religion in which I deeply believe.

2. But, such a system cannot and will not be established in the short term (the next 1-5 years). Those who believe so either fantasize or hallucinate. Even if there is a violent revolution that can overthrow the IRI quickly - and the chances of that is nill - that by no means guarantee that a SDR will replace it.

3. Therefore, a more relevant question is: How do we think we can get to a SDR with the minimum cost in terms of human lives and damage to the nation.

Regarding Bazargan, and for the record:

Bazargan and his comrades drafted a constitution, based on those of Belgium and France, that was completely democratic and without any trace of Velaayat-e Faghih or any special rights for the clerics in it. He presented it to Ayatollah Khomeini. He read and approved it (trust me on this; I know this very very well due to the people that I know). He then asked Bazargan to put it to a referendum. Here, due to his utter integrity and honesty, Bazargan committed a historical error. He reminded the Ayatollah that while in Paris he had promised that the new constitution will be drafted by a constitutional assembly. Thus, the Ayatollah ordered the formation of such an assembly, except that by the time it was formed, it became the Assembly of experts of the constitution.

Two factions in that assembly advocated Velaayat-e Faghih. One led by Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri, and one led by Dr. Hassan Ayat, a right-wing deputy from the Islamic Republican Party (he was assassinated in August 1981 by MKO). Ayat was very close to Mazaffar Baghaei, who was an ardent supporter of the Shah in the 1953 coup. Baghaei was still living at that time and was an advisor to Ayat. See his bio:

//www.ir-psri.com/Show.php?Page=ViewPublishedBook&PublishedBookID=70&SP=English

Those who baselessly attack Bazargan should learn about history as it happened, not as the way they like it to have happened, or the way they hallucinate it. Bazargan was a democrat all his life.

Mammad

Theocracy vs. Democracy

21st century, there is no dilemma.

lovely gathering

I have send NO ONE an email........... [wink ] please do not bother reading..

-YT 

Jamshid Jaan,

How eloquently and perfectly put!!! I'm enormously proud to call you a compatriot! That was beautiful, specially the following:

"Bending over for second class foreign powers such as Russia and China is not independence...

In fact, the IRI is doing more damage to Iran than even the damage foreign colonist countries had done to their victims in the past.

This is not independence. Quite the contrary, this is the crushing of the people's independence, sovereignty and right to self-rule. This is worst than colonialism.

You are so right! This is exactly what always gets me. One of my moronic associates always says the same thing, that at least with the mullahs we're not beholden to the Ameicans, to which I say, the mullahs have merely substituted the Americans with the Russians and the Chinese! So, where's the real independence?  The Americans may be gone, but in their place we've become beholden to two kleptocratic, gangster governments! This is not independence -- far from it!

If Europe were to stop doing business with the IRI, the mullahs would be fininshed. If Russia or China stopped doing business with the mullahs, the IRI would be mortally wounded. So, where's the independence? Real independence implies that one can survive on one's own two feet, without any assistance. Can the IRI survive without China, Russia and European mercantalism?

No way! Translation: Iran under the IRI is a sickly, corrupt, dependent nation, not very different from Qajar Iran under Ahmad Shah.

Sargord

You are wrong in your assessment that Iran today is an independent country.

Chest beating, slogans and flag burning does not constitute independence.

Bending over for second class foreign powers such as Russia and China is not independence.

Buying 50s technology junk at the 2010's technology price is not independence.

Selling oil to India at $1 only to import it in refined form at $10 is not independence.

Sacrificing the quality of Iranians lives in the name of ideology is not independence.

Taking away the "sovereignity" of Iranians and their right to rule the country is not independence.

Creating an alarming corrupt financial and moral environment in Iran is not independence.

Allowing Bam's orphans to suffer in favor of Hamas is not indpendence.

Taking the right of the people to define their foreign and domestic policies is not independence.

Execution and imprisonment of our people is not independence.

Torturing our youth in order to extract information or to intimidate them is not independence.

Looting Iran's riches and stealing from the people is not independence.

In fact, the IRI is doing more damage to Iran than even the damage foreign colonist countries had done to their victims in the past.

This is not independence. Quite the contrary, this is the crushing of the people's independence, sovereignty and right to self-rule. This is worst than colonialism.

And you sir, by defending this regime at every opportunity, you have willingly made yourself a vehicle for oppression, corruption and "dependence" of the worst kind. But then again, these immoral qualities have always needed human "vehicles" for their sustenance.

Aynak: I agree with much if not all you said.

More specifically, we Iranians are first and foremost responsible for the past 60 years of nightmare. You are correct that foreign governments are after their own interest first and often only. Lets hope that we can learn from our past and take responsibility for our future, be watchful of those "friendly hands" that want to "export democracy" to Iran, specially if their track record is all but the contrary.

Mehrdad

onlyiran: Sargord's logic

onlyiran: Sargord's logic is the same as Bush and Cheney who took away many of our hard fought civil liberties in the name of "war on terror". The mullahs will use that argument till eternity since there is always danger of war with a foreign government. If the IRI had the support of its citizens, they would not worry about foreign intervention or regime change or anything else for that matter. There is always a potential war scenario between any two countries even allies...

Here is Benjamine Franklin's immortal words in many different variations from wikipedia:

Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.
He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.
People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.
If we restrict liberty to attain security we will lose them both.
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither.
Those who would trade in their freedom for their protection deserve neither.
//en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

Sargord's incomprehensible logic

Sargord, you say:

What is the Best Form of Government for Iran?

Simple: a government able to retain its independence from foreign manipulation and influence, while under such threat as it exists today. For the past 31 years, this has been the case.

JJ Jaan,

you can ban me from this website and also you can remove my comments. That is your right and I have no problem with it but please under no circumstances alter what I wrote. That is not really right.

MM jon: Keep safe my friend.

MM jon: Keep safe my friend. We shall overcome.

Vildemose jan,

You speak the voice of reason. There shall be compatriots to defend Iranians right in the West. No doubt on that. It's just me who never have been able to hear the voice of reason. Cheers,

Bavafa and aynak

I never thought I would endorse anything written by Bavafa, but here, he's alarmingly accurate, with a measure of irony tossed in for emphasis: 

"The options seem to be either the current system or the Evin prison. A good number of young people have actually chosen the Evin prison."

How true is that, and sad!

aynak -- your point against Ms. Amini is precisely what's wrong with much of our national thinking, in that we're so quick to blame the West for all of our problems. Ms. Amini is an expert at this, as are most Mossadegh supporters. They never blame the biggest HOMEGROWN culprits, Ayatollah Kashani and the Tudeh party.

The Tudeh, in all reality, was far more culpable in Mossadegh's downfall than MI6 or the CIA (after all, the CIA is a foreign spy agency with their own agenda, the Tudeh were made up of Iranian members). If you're educated in this area, and objective, you will know why. At that early stage in CIA's invention (1948), they were bumbling idiots in the early 1950's, and did almost everything wrong and barely succeeded in the coup, and BUT FOR the massive assistance of traitors in the Tudeh and Fedayoun-e-Islam, the coup would not have prevailed.

Ayatollah Kashani and Ayatollah Behbahani were far more culpable in Mossadegh's downfall than we acknowledge. It's always the CIA!  And on and on. If the Tudeh, who despised Mossadegh's aristocratic pedigree and pro-business philosophy, had supported him in the last weeks leading to the coup, it would have made a world of difference. If Kashani, who was the Khomeini of his time, had not betrayed Mossadegh, it would have made a world of difference. I can go on and on... Iranians just don't know their own history, not even 20th century history, let alone Shahpour Sassan I, or Cyrus the Great for that matter!

As aynak rightly says, "Given an uneducated populace and vast reources, stronger countries will try to exploit the situation every time, please refer to Africa for prime example of this.  To expect them  do otherwise for some moral value is just naive (unless of course humanity as a whole reaches a new level of conscientious)."

MM jon: I'm so sorry to hear

MM jon: I'm so sorry to hear that. Many times I have been tempted to go back but to do what?? Get arrested? That's why many of us are still here. Not because we want to but because we are more useful here than dead in Evin or Khavaron..

Dear Aynak

Did Iran have the technology or the know-how to extract the oil or build refinaries in 1953? Who build the refinaries in Iran? What kind of leverage Iran had at that time to strike a better deal with the US or the Brits?

Vildemose,

You're right, IRI is UNREFORMABLE, just look how they banned Khatami, a two term "reformist" president under IRI, to attend the conference in Tokyo as an invited speaker!

I don't care what Su-Su-l or others expect from Iranians to do. It may also sound foolish, as I'm recognized in what I do in the West but after these events I just have some trouble to sleep at night and breathing the same air (even in a short period of time) than those who play their lives in the Mullahs Russian roulette is the only way I found to relax my unease.

Blame ourselves or blame others?

Fariba Amini writes:"When someone proposed Mehdi Bazargan (who later became the provisional Prime Minister after 1979) as his Minister of Culture, he rejected the idea, saying that if Bazargan, because of his >>religiosity was put in this position, he would put a scarf on every Iranian girl and woman. He respected the late Bazargan who was a man of integrity, but not for that post. His vision was correct. He had read and lived the history of Iran."

It would be nice to point to a reference to the above statement. Regardless, the history proved Bazargan, was in fact the type of religous person we need the most for Iran. Amir-Entezam in his memoir states that he drafted a constitution that clearly spelled out the separation of state and religion (for which he was rewarded the longest prison sentence). According to Amir-Entezam, Bazargan not only approved this but encouraged him to pass this on to other transition ministers, where it received 16 out of 18 signatures. So even if Mossdegh said the above about Bazargan, in this regard he was not correct.

Of course as history also showed us, Bazargan remained true to his principles and resigned when he felt his office was compromised (post hostage crisis). But my main disagreement with this writing is the focus and blame on the foreigners instead of us.

Farib Amini writes:

"if the West had cooperated with nationalist and secular forces in Iran, this tragedy in Iran could possibly have been avoided. But the West was shortsighted"

Ms.Amini, Why would the West do that? The whole market collapse we witness today, is the result of a simple philosophy in: To make profit and to make it quick. If supporting Taleban or Saudi Arabian monarchy helps the bottom line, so be it. Most countries, operate withe their own interest in mind first (short term, because Obama may not even be in power in another 3 years). The 1953 coupe helped the stated goals of both Brits and the U.S for a good 50 years! So did you expect them to have a vision beyound the 40 or 50 years? What happened in Iran during 1953 was not an anomaly. Given an uneducated populace and vast resources, stronger countries will try to exploit the situation every time, please refer to Africa for prime example of this. To expect them do otherwise for some moral value is just naive (unless of course humanity as a whole reaches a new level of conscientious). We need to look at countries like Japan (completely devastated after 2nd world war) or S.Korea or India (one of the fast growing economies in spite of a 1billion+ population), Germany, to find the main ingredients of success (in tangible terms), and create our solution based on the positives of our culture mixed with modern principles like human rights - democracy - tolerance, and make our presence felt without blaming others or expecting them to do be better to us than we are to ourselves.

My vote goes for: Freedom + Meritocracy + Democracy + Transparency + Accountability + Tolerance

Oh yes, no Valeeh Vagheeh or King either :)

Reform only occur in

Reform only occur in a democratic or semi-democratic society not in a religious military dictatorship. Holding the leadership of a country harmless from civil society (which is non-existent in the Hojatieh -run governmen) criticism guarantees that the leadership will not change its policies.  Going to Iran  and getting involved in political activism will only get your arrested or killed or kidnapped.

I guess that's what SU is hoping for...