RED

A One-sided Conversation

Q wrote: “First they said, … Then they said, … Then they said, … Now, they are saying, … Its an amusing conversation mostly among people who really couldn't matter less to the future of Iran. Fortunately, Iranians aren't even listening.”

Unfortunately, the conversation was one sided, only between Q and Q. I didn’t have a chance to engage in this conversation with you. If I had, the conclusion might have been different.

LOL Khers! Can't argue except to call me Arab?

Why am I not surprised by this?
When you say "care about Iranians" you mean like this?

//iranian.com/main/blog/q/mourning-murder...

I quoted some of your kind of "support" at the bottom. Read carefully before you open your mouth again.

بله، این آقای کیو

دربارهٔ کشتار ایرانیها که میشه خنده‌اش میگیره و "lol" میکنه.  ولی‌ برای هموطنهای فلسطینیش گریه میکنه، بلاگ مینویسه و ویدئو embed میکنه در بلاگش.

آخه آدم چقدر میتونه ضد ایرانی‌ و وطن فروش باشه.  حال آدم رو بهم میزنند این حزب‌الله یها.

Some twists

"...the families of the fallen will file criminal charges against the highest echelons of power in the Islamic Republic..."

By way of comparison with the US, the US Supreme Court has ruled that the president has absolute immunity from civil lawsuits seeking damages for presidential actions (but not for actions unrelated to his duties as president). My guess is that a similar ruling would be implemented in the hypothetical case where green leaders come to power. This would eliminate the motive for keeping the system entirely intact.

As for the justice of this sort of legislation, I often think of Montazeri's dillemma. He refused to go along with Khomeini on the executions and as a result was cut off from power altogether. He could have kept his disagreement to himself and changed things when he became supreme leader. But then he would be wearing all those deaths around his neck severely limiting his credibility as a reformer. Mousavi may have gambled the other way, unwillingly participating in the murders, waiting for his chance at power. I don't know if this is true, just showing that you can't win either way once a crime of such magnitude has been committed and you happened to be a high official without much decision power on the matter.

Should Mousavi have resigned as Montazeri effectively did?

The fault lines

Thanks Laleh for this honest and timely reminder of the cracks in the green movement. I hope that there will be justice and closure for all the families of victims. I also hope that we can let go of Qisas and remove the death penalty from our penal system. It has to start somewhere and it is well passed its time. Torture and capital punishment are the tools of dictatorship and without them the society will pave its way towards democracy.

LOL Gillani,

it's funny how the people who never believed in and never supported the Greens and did everything they could to attack and demonize them have now concluded that "they can't deliver."

First they said, there is no such thing as internal opposition. Iranians need "help" from outside. "No real opposition can run for elections."

Then they said, no, this is really just a show put on for gullible foreigners, and no one will support the Greens. "Mousavi is a puppet meant to lose to make people think IRI is a democracy."

Then they said, OK, so people are supporting them, but those people are "secretly" supporting someone else, taking bullet in the streets but they dare not say what they really think. "People really want to overthrow the system and hate Islam, don't listen to 'allho akabar' and 'ya hossein mir hossein', it's just a strategy!"

Now they are saying, OK, we gave it a chance (lie) but it they can't deliver so let's bury them. "Greens are dead."

Its an amusing conversation mostly among people who really couldn't matter less to the future of Iran. Fortunately, Iranians aren't even listening.

Green Can’t Deliver

If the Green leaders deliver half of the changes to the system as promised, the families of the fallen will file criminal charges against the highest echelons of power in the Islamic Republic of Iran within days.

These criminal charges will be based on the Islamic principle of Qisas recognized by Quran. We will use the system to seek justice, and the Green leaders will not be spared. For precisely this reason, the Green leaders will introduce no fundamental changes to the system.

Yes, compulsory hijib will change to compulsory loosely worn hijib….

Much needed article

Thanks for this moving piece.

We had victims of this mass murder in my family, and I wrote a blog about it some time ago:

 //iranian.com/main/blog/anonymous-observer/how-iri-murdered-my-cousin

Shames on those who still support this regime. 

links

//www.iricrimes.org/wanted.asp

//www.islamicrepublicscrimes.blogspot.com/

//www.holycrime.com/Criminals.asp 

OKtaby

Best Analysis of reformist

Best Analysis of reformist gang of thugs thus far:

//nanazola2.blogspot.com/2010/08/blog-post_5428.html

دادگاه دهه خونین

هوشنگ عزیز، کارزار بین المللی قدم بزرگی در جهت گرد هم آوری اسناد و ثبت شهادت افرادی میباشد که کم کم از میان ما به دیار باقی راهی هستند. نیاز به تشکیل کارزار ضرورت حقوقی میباشد که اگر به فردا واگذار شود، دیگر دیر خواهد بود.

از تمامی هموطنان عزیز تقاضا دارم که از هیچگونه کمک به کارزار بین المللی دریغ نکنند و به آن بپیوندید.

کارزار تدارک دادگاه بین المللی برای رسیدگی به کشتار زندانیان سیا

کارزار تدارک دادگاه بین المللی برای رسیدگی به کشتار زندانیان سیاسی در دهه ۶٠

//www.irantribunal.com/farsi.html

به هر حال  هم میشود تا آخر عمر افسوس  خورد و  داد رسی به این جنایات را به آینده نامعلوم حواله داد ، یا از همین امروز دست به سازماندهی چنین داد رسی  از طریق نهادهای مربوطه مانند " کارزار  تدارک دادگاه..."  بزنیم . یا احیانا زبانم لال ، حتا میشه از طریق سایت های ایرانی زبان ، مثل همین سایت، شروع به جمع آوری افراد و گروهای علاقه مند به چنین کارزاری نمود . دوستان شما چه فکر میکنید؟  

More than Meets the Eye

G. Rahmanian wrote: “How can the Green Movement be both the brainchild of the reformists within the IRI and people’s uprising against the Islamic rulers that had to be reined in? I see some sort of contradiction in there. There had to be uprisings before the reformists moved in.”

On the surface, there might be a contradiction, but there is more to it than meets the eye. During three decades of Islamic reign in Iran, Muslim scholars have been alerted to the trend of “anti Islam” spread beyond the circles of intellectuals in Tehran. This trend has “infected” the commoners.

Given a free society and no fear of persecution and reprisal from angry mobs of Muslim radicals, it becomes evident that Islam is no longer the religion of the majority of Iranians. And there lies the need for a “Green Movement,” and an Islamic uprising led by Muslim intellectuals to reform a regime that has become a liability.

Holocaust of Iran's brightest and best...

I was far away from home, safely studying abroad when news of mass murder of political prisoners of islamist regime  started leaking out. I remember physically shaking with anger and rage when I heard these terrible news. Included, were people from my neighbourhood. Two  were my friends from school days, still teen agers. Few more  were adults that as a child I respected because they were known  for their intelligence, bravery and patriotism. They were all already in prison , seving sentences for their political beliefs. Non I knew of was involved in any armed, militant activity against the Islamist rregime.To hear them being murdered in such cowardly manner was beyond belief.

The day will come, that this islamist mass murderers will have to answer for this crime of the century. I am 100% sure about that.

Two short notes for "G.Rahmanian," and JJ

1) Dear Ms/MR G.Rahmanian, there's no contradiction in Ms.Gillani's formulation. "Green" movement was/is essesntially Rafsanjani's instrument in his fight with Sepah and Khameniei ( Mussavi, Koroubi, and Khatemi, are basically Rafsanjani's pawns in this fight). At the same time masses of the people fed up with both camps, (Reformers and Sepah ) are obviously after much more radical goals.

This basic distinction between origins of the Green leadership ( high echolons of IR) and the everyday people seeking any way out of this hell, should be very easy to understand.

2) JJ, don't mean to be polemical but there are actually a HANDFULL of examples ( of course a handfull, probably less than 10 is not a good sign). One of my favourite ones has always been:

Karim Khan Zand

Karim Khan Zand, (Persian: کریم خان زند), (c. 1705- 1779), was the ruler and de facto Shah of Iran from 1749 until 1779. Karim Khan was the chief of the Zand tribe, which was from the Laki. Lakki is the language of west of Iran.[1] He never styled himself as "shah" or king, and instead used the title Vakil e-Ra'aayaa (President).

Karim Khan Zand was one of the generals of Nader Shah Afshar. After Nader Shah's death in 1747, Persia fell into a state of civil war. At that time, Karim Khan, Abolfath Khan and Ali Mardan Khan reached an agreement to divide the country among themselves and give the throne to Ismail III. However, the cooperation ended after Ali Mardan Khan invaded Isfahan and killed Abdolfath Khan. Subsequently, Karim Khan killed Ali Mardan Khan and gained control over all of Iran except Khorasan, ruled by Shahrokh, grandson of Nader Shah. Nevertheless, he did not adopt the title of Shah for himself, preferring the title, Vakil e-Ra'aayaa (Advocate of the People (literal translation - workers of the fields i.e. peasants)).

Wax figure of Karim Khan in Fars History museum

Monument of Karim Khan in Shiraz

While Karim was ruler, Persia recovered from the devastation of 40 years of war, providing the war ravaged country with a renewed sense of tranquility, security, peace, and prosperity. During his reign,relations with Britain were restored, and he allowed the East India Company to have a trading post in southern Iran. He made Shiraz his capital and ordered the construction of several architectural projects there. Following Karim Khan's death, civil war broke out once more, and none of his descendants were able to rule the country as effectively as he had. The last of these descendants, Lotf Ali Khan, was killed by Agha Mohammad Khan, and the Qajar dynasty came to power.

To this day, he has a reputation as one of the most just and able rulers in Iranian history. A wealth of tales and anecdotes portray Karim Khan as a compassionate ruler, genuinely concerned with the welfare of his subjects. In the words of John Malcolm, "The happy reign of this excellent prince, as contrasted with those who preceded and followed him, affords the historian of Persia that kind of mixed pleasure and repose, which a traveler enjoys on arriving in a beautiful and fertile valley during an arduous journey over barren and rugged wastes. It is pleasing to recount the actions of a chief who, though born of an inferior rank, obtained power without crime, and who exercised it with a moderation that, for the times in which he lived, was as singular as his humanity and justice." (John Malcolm, The History of Persia, 1829)

He is buried at Pars Museum of Shiraz.

ثبت جنایات

هموطنان اگر اطلاعاتی در مورد مزار عزیزان به خاک و خون کشیده دارند، جزئیات را به هر ترتیبی شده در اختیار فعالین سیاسی بگذارید. با من از طریق ایمیل یا حساب فیس بوکم میتوانید تماس بگیرید. وظیفه همگان ثبت جنایتهای رژیم ملایان میباشد.

JJ

I agree, that we should not forget/pretend that all our sorrows began with the ouster of the Pahlavis. But nor should we forget that our collective sorrows DID decrease with their arrival and DID increase enormously with their ouster.

Goodness of rulers in 5000 years of history, is comparative and relative to the period in which they ruled. again no surprise, seeing your history blog ;), that you won't find a single good one amongst them.

And finally, while I hope and see some signs that we have matured enough, I fear that we might not have!

Thanks for your response.

Dear Ms. Gilani,

You wrote:

"The Green Movement was the brainchild of the reformists within IRI. It was and is a ploy to rein in people’s uprising against the Islamic rulers. For precisely this reason, the leadership had to come from the old guard, those close to Khomeini."

How can the Green Movement be both "the brainchild of the reformists within the IRI" and "people's uprising against the Islamic rulers" that had to be reined in?

I see some sort of contradiction in there. There had to be uprisings before the reformists moved in. Many people in the streets of major cities of Iran did not follow Mousavi, et al. They were hoping to bring the regime down without any coherent leadership. Lack of leadership was a major reason for the uprisings to come to a standstill. It was not the result of the reformists' interference.

As I wrote earlier, these uprisings were long overdue. People's demand for their votes was only a symbolic gesture.

Dear Laleh, what a powerful article you have written

Laleh jan, thanks for reminding readers that Iranians deserve better laeders. When someone in Diaspora says something bad about reformist leaders, some people say that people inside Iran should decide their leaders. However, this is all so convenient for reformist leaders since by all executions and forcing people to exile, people who have been left are diferent than it would be had Moussavi and shoraka not been so brutal in getting rid of opposition.

And before that

Yes Kaveh, this regime's crimes began on February 12, 1979.

And I would add let's not forget/pretend that all our sorrows began with the ouster of the Pahlavis.

Throughout history, the rulers of Iran (I cannot name ONE good one. Not One. Even if you could dig up three relatively decent ones in 5,000 years, just calculate the percentage.) have all failed miserably. This regime takes the cake. But with our track record, the next regime may not be any prettier as far as respecting human rights and democratic values.

Unless we have matured enough to practice and implement democracy. Have we?

Yes JJ

It's the truth indeed, you should read the piece again. the killings didn't start in the 1980's, the killings started on 12 Feb 1979 and hasn't stopped since.

Not really a surprise that the blood of those 1000's that were killed in 1979 isn't red enough for you.

Laleh Khanoum,

thank you.

جمع آوری اطلاعات ادامه دارد

بسیاری از کورستانها و قبرها از قلم افتاده است. بیش از دو دهه طول کشیده تا به اینجا رسیده ایم و هنوز راه درازی در پیش داریم.

پرت اباد ها

البته قائمشهر از قلم افتاد محل دفن اعدامیهای مجاور محله پس از نبش قبر و بستن پشت وانت بار حزب اللهی ها و گردوندن توی محله ها اجازه دفن در باغچه خونه پدر و مادرشون داده شد

Excellent reminder and

Excellent reminder and analysis of reformist-criminals.

این وطن فروشان
جنایتکار اصلاح طلب را از درب اردنگی بزنی از پنجره وارد میشوند
و تا اینان امیدی !!!! در مورد ایران و قدرت دارند ایران محال است
نجات یابد

The Brainchild of Reformists

The Green Movement was the brainchild of the reformists within IRI. It was and is a ploy to rein in people’s uprising against the Islamic rulers. For precisely this reason, the leadership had to come from the old guard, those close to Khomeini.

مقاله ی بسیار عالی در یاد آوری تاریخی جان باخته گان مان،

و  سپاس بسیار از خانم گیلانی

//www.bidaran.net/spip.php?article270

JJ,

The Green Movement was not the work of Mir Hossein Mousavi and other former henchmen of the regime. It was a people's uprising long overdue. Many Iranians had expected such uprisings to take place long before June of 2009. And the biggest reason for its failure to bring down the regime has been lack of leadership!

More than three years ago in a piece I sent to IC called, "War And Peace" I wrote:
 

"For Ahmadinejhad and the militarists running the affairs in Tehran, war is one option. However, if they cannot have a war and both domestic and international pressures continue to build up, they will have no choice other than carrying out a coup before the next presidential elections. The events of the last two years all indicate that the politically bankrupt regime of the IRI will not tolerate even the pseudo-democratic charade they call, elections."  War and Peace July 21, 2007

Recent events in Iran have proven the points I made then!

It's the truth

What happened in Iran last year was monumental. But grievances do not start with 2009's fraudulent elections and the crimes that have happened since. What happened in the 1980s is beyond compare.

Thank you for this powerful reminder of what happened especially under the reign of Khomeini. And for Mousavi and other Greens to still pay tribute to that insane maniac is a telling sign of how they still cling to false idols and failed ideologies instead of basic human rights and common sense.