MISTAKE

Anonymous Observer: Mistake of History?

No, the tragedy of history? Low point of Iranian humanity and culture. Perhaps necessary to get rid of the Cancer called Islam? Too bad, it could have simply been avoided if our people were educated and understood Islam.

Lured by Islamists lies

Azari;

 You are %100 correct about some stuff. But many thing were not exaggerated. Iran as country or governement had to protect itself against enemies. The mere reason anyone hears about the toture at Evin or elsewhere is the fact that Shah's regime rarely murdered its opposition. They tried to rehabilitate them and then release them. In the case of Khomeini they expelled him from Iran.  No one can say the same thing about IR. They alwasy kill their opposition but torture people for small stuff.

 The main problem is the ignorance of Shah and people in Iran for not understanding politics and more importantly not understanding the Islamic Laws which from first day of its inception has treated mankind with harsh inhumane behavior.

We hear this all the time, "Islam is the one because its pure and unchanged, etc". Well just read Quran or Hadith and it "ll become clear what Islam is about. I have a Blog here in Farsi about Religion morality and ethics which You can refer for info. I can say with certainty that majority (this number is extremely high perhaps %90) of believers of the 3 publicized religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam have not read their books, nor understand the behavior of their perspective religion. No one today, (if they could understand the truth) would ever subscribe or follow a person who made his living by taking slaves and other people's weath with force and blood shed. Many of our country men suffered this faith, either lost their lives or became slaves of a this figure called Muhammad.

 Do you think if Iranian people understood how they were treated by the Islamic inventers, they would have allowed them to take power in our country?

BTW, it is extremely easy to understanding the IR behavior. Just read Quran and Hadith and you 'll see that IR is following/copying the behavior of their religious inventers. It worked then and people were fooled by Muhammad, and it worked today. In the eye of IR, like its early inventers, being dead is more worthy than being alive and taking another human beings life is easily justified as ordained by Allah. I heard one Mulla in an interview about the death sentences that were just carried and he reliped; "We' re God's agents to carry out any punishment on his behalf." Again these statements come directly from Quran Soreh Tobeh 9:14.  People are sometimes amazed about IR behavior. Nothing to be amazed about. It's written in Black & White in Quran. Just read it and you 'll see what kind of monster people in Iran or elsewhere have to contend with.

quit blaming the shah.....

he made many mistakes- but the man was a true patriot, like his father- he wanted iran to be respected and self-sufficient.

his biggest mistake was not exterminating khomeini when he had the chance- he was not a butcher like the akhoonds- that is a fact

he could have stayed in iran and unleashed the army on the 15K or so mercenaries and arab vultures who were instigating violence and spreading bs propaganda(cinema rex, meydoon jaleh, etc)

instead the mullahs were given free reign to come in and destroy a nation- and what is worse, is that after 30 years of oppression and brainwashing, a new generation of iranians has emerged that could have been the beacon of hope, and the most talented in the region.

and you have the biggest murderer in iran's recent history buried in a mountain of gold, and reza shah's tomb was desecrated by a bunch of lowlife thieves!!!! 

Agha jan, from day one there were protest against IR

the slogan and demands for Esteghlal, Azadi, Refah Ejtemaie might not have been heard by you in Tehran, but are documented histories of the parties, groups and individuals who advocated them, it is a part of Iranian history, not the dominant one, but a participants nonetheless.You seriously underestimate how many prominent Iranians and communities were very apprehensive about Khomeini from day one, they either knew his history or just didn't trust the clergy.

Cinema Rex was a diabolical, unimaginable plot of the clergy, but Shah consistenly created and provide the social space within which the clergy was able to impose itself as the leader of the movement. Hezbe Rastakhiz and SAVAK working with Hojatieh really didn't help either.

Last but not least: for many communities in Iran like Kurdestan they simply could not afford to have any illusions about IR, since day one and even before that.

Hoshang Jaan

Again you are resorting to fiction

I was there in the street among the demonstrators and heard and chanted all the slogans. I have even got the tapes of speeches and the films. I never heard your slogan of “chanted independence, freedom, social welfare” and do not know where you were chanting that but it certainly was not in the streets of Tehran.

Being clever and responsible is not something that any dictator can prevent.

They can limit your activities they can imprison torture and even kill you but one thing they can not is to tell you or force how you think and what principals to have. We needed more time more planning and should have made better choices.

There are many examples of responsible clever oppositions who fought 

Far more suppressive regimes than Pahlavi. Such as Mandela, French students and from our own history people like Dr Mosaddegh who did not compromise his beliefs even in face of prosecution

The most intelligent freedom fighters were made under dictator ship regimes. People such as Gandhi, Mandela French Revolutionaries, Alende, Desmond Tootoo, Masadegh, Sattar Khan, Bagher Khan, Amir Kabir, Babak Khoramdeen and many many others. Otherwise in a democracy there is no need for a freedom fighter

Hence before continuing with this argument I erg you to go away and read about the history of successful revolutions and their great leaders

Further more if you have read my trail there it is needless to say that I have no love for Shah or his regime. All I am interested in is the truth and accountability to leave clear path for the next generation.

Lured by islamists' lies

I was just a teenager in 1357, but I still remember the lies that the Islamists spread prior to the beginning of the revolutionary mess of 1357 to justify their thirst for power.

Cinema Rex's killings, execcution of thousands of people in Evin, Savak's torture rooms, etc...were all part of a systematic propaganda machine against the Shah which was used to lure people...and well, it was only after 1357 that we realized everything was exaggerated.

Mistake of History

That's what the 1979 devolution was.

Pointless Argument

The late Shah was sick and dying and finally passed away, with or without Khomeini. He knew it, his doctors knew it and Jimmy Carter knew it. Unfortunately, he did not have a Plan B in place. Shahbanoo Farah, Reza Pahlavi or Hoveida did not have the strength or charisma to step in and save the monarchy.

With Soviet tanks in Afghanistan in 1980 and Reagan at the White House, the only option for the US was a military coup (which in hindsight may look good today) that would have been completely unacceptable to the average Iranian of that era. So we are back to the slogan, Anything But the Shah!

Khomeini and the gang just stepped in and robbed the people blind.

Contradiction in terms

Aghay ario, you say :

"Suppressing all the opposition is what all dictators do that is why they
are called dictators but that does not give a responsible clever
opposition the excuse to jump at the first bandwagon that arrives
without thinking assessing the risks and taking responsibility for
results." But you forget to mention how could you have a " clever
opposition" under a dictatorship. Intelligence grows only within a democracy, any dictatorship by nature blunts and destroyes any "responsible clever opposition".

You also seriously underestimate the sheer corruption, dis-functionality and repression of Pahlavi era. As far as opposing IR from day one, we always chanted independence,freedom,social welfare. And there were hundreds and thousands of parties, groups, individuals and artists who had ZERO illusion about any of this from the very start. 

If you don't belive me read some of their poems, after 32 years in stands the test of times, cheers

//irpress.org/index.php?title=%D8%B5%D9%81%D8...

Hoshang Jaan, pull the other one it has got bells on

The same old retarded empty slogans of 30 years ago which took us to this mess in the first place.

Remember mate? I have been there done that wrote the book and made the movie

So tell me sir where were you and your like to warn us the people about the danger that was Religious dictatorship. Weren’t you shutting Esteghlal Azadi, Jomhorri e Eslami . Now be honest did you even stop for one moment to think what actually is “Jomhorri e Eslami”

I tell you were you where. While people like Dr Bakhtiar were warning about dictatorship of na-lain being worst that dictatorship of chakme. Parties like Toodeh Jebhe-ye melli communists, cherikha and MKO decided to get into bed with Khomeini.

Not because they did not know any better or they were mislead by Khomeini like an innocent naive child. But because they wanted to use Khomeini’s religious power and influence to mobilise people and get rid of shah. They though Khomeini can be pushed aside when shah is gone. But Khomeini was more dubious than all of them and beat them in their own game. Khomeini also needed their expertise in mobilising a revolution as they needed his religious influence to get ordinary people involved so it was the perfect partnership for both

He used them and let them to do the entire job and right at the time of getting results cut off their hand from power, and this is what after 30 years they can not come in terms with “allowing themselves to be used by a bisavaad Mulla in such way”

This is the reason for all the excuses and running away from your responsibility. and mistakes. But rest assure sir, history will judge all of us swiftly harshly but fairly

Suppressing all the opposition is what all dictators do that is why they are called dictators but that does not give a responsible clever opposition who take themselves ecen remoatly seriuse, the excuse to jump at the first bandwagon that arrives without thinking assessing the risks and taking responsibility for results.

Another account in favor of Anonymus' points

پويايی ديکتاتوری

//www.roshangari.net/as/sitedata/201012152102...

Dear Anahid ,I would not hold my breath yet

If I was you, I would not hold my breath for those better days to come yet.

Because as the IRI are repeating the same errors as Shah (as rightly said by Anon) we are also repeating the same mistake as the generation of 1357 and the generation before it in 1320 by not knowing what we want and not assessing whom we are following and frankly I would not be surprised if in 30 years time our children would be having the same argument and finger pointing as we are having today and as I said before the vicious circle continues, unless we face up to our mistakes and learn from them as we Iranian would like to say

Hamin Ash-asto va Hamin Keseh

Well my friend

At the end of the day everybody needs to decide for thenselves

You are either a victim and your deeds are reactions, symptoms and a side effects of others, or your actions and choices matters and for better or worst you take responsibility for them.

Your choice!

Until that question is and answered this argument is going nowhere

 As far I am conserned, I can only  be responsible for my own actions and choices and not for those of IRI or Shah. You also need to come to terms with this issue for yourself and until then all I can say is

Good day to you sir

Dear Anon, you are correct once again

You wrote:"We saw what happened in 2009 when the "Islamic generation" came of age.  This is just the beginning and better days are ahead ". This coming of age is so correct. Look at it. Between 1332 and 1357, there was 25 years. Between early 1980s and 2009, couple year more than 25 years. By now, this is a pattern in Iran, which is good since that means that better days are ahead.

من حوصلهٔ چک و چونهٔ زیادی ندارم

You are very generous with Shah and rigid on people and doesn't matter what I say.   Now Shah and people are "equal" just like he was "one man" like the rest of us.  So I'm not going to belabor this longer

The whole Islamic Republic is really a creation of Shah himself.  He was the one who gave the power to clergy (Ayatollah Kashani to begin with) out of his "fear" for the Tudeh party

He was the one who exiled Khomeini when he could've dealt with him another way and so on and so forth.  These mistakes are clear now but not to him at the time

Bottom line the revolution of 1979 was a culmination of years of mistakes and the promise of a better future.  Just like Shah and the one before him and the one before and before ... all had their own ideals and promises

Islamic Republic is making the "same mistakes" as Shah.  You either get this or not.  We saw what happened in 2009 when the "Islamic generation" came of age.  This is just the beginning and better days are ahead.  Make no mistake about it, at this time after 30 years, people (or Shah their so called partner) will not make the same mistake with clergy again

معما چو حل گشت آسان شود!

Everything is sacred

Dear Anonymouse

Again this is the major point of our difference.

You are regarding the relation between shah and people as parent child which gives one party more authority. Morality, power and right over the other and diminishes the responsibilities of the other party

I am not looking at it in that way. But as a partnership where unlike what you would like to think the other partner (being the people) had a lot of power at its disposal. Even the power to topple his regime in the end. But it totally refused to use it properly or accept the responsibility that comes with it and instead went for a shabby quick fix

Our problems did not start with the Shah or even the Pahlavi’s. You seem to be repeating the same mistake that the author is trying to deter us from by only going as far back in our recent history as it suits you.

Shah did not start the trend dictatorship in Iran and he was not the only dictator in our recent history and certainly his attitude was not the only tyranist one amongst our nation at the time .

You either accept that people have power or you don’t and if you do, was this power the reason for his downfall in 1979 or not.

If we had the power to do what they did in 1979 and get rid of him then the relationship is not as one way as a parent and a child one. If we had this power then it should have been used earlier and more constructively to minimise the damage and we should have taken more pre-caution especially in selecting our next leader not to mention in our actions and methods. Unless you are one of those conspiracy theorists who believes in a western plot

Areyo Barza those are the effects, not the causes = Mistakes

Seems you're swift to shift blame to as many other issues as possible when those issues are universal while I'm trying to keep it simple.

When someone makes a "mistake" that mistake can snowball into more mistakes and more problems that one can handle.

When a parent (Shah) abuses a child (people) and beats him/her up with cables, belt buckles and breaks his/her bones and this goes on until the child becomes an adult, what do you expect of the abused child?  Whan CAN you expect of the abused child? Huh?

All these criminals that we see kill and rape, did they have a happy childhood?  The vast majority of them have been abused, the more heinous the crime the more abuse they had received.

So please spare me the excuses in your long comment and keep it simple.  Start from Shah's mistakes and see how it snow balled.  I'm sure if he had a chance he'd have not made the "mistakeS" that he did and we'd not have had a revolution.  But that is just wishful thinking.  Keep it simple.

Everything is sacred

Again, my anonymous friend.

  I am NOT trying to make excuses for Shah or downplay his mistakes and God knows I had my problems and heated arguments with his blind supporters as my track records shows.But if we really want to look at the root of the problem we need to have the courage to admit whom and what culture made shah the dictator he became( NOT trying to excuse his huge errors or diminish his crimes and responsibilities) but I am trying to follow you own instruction of :   “You can't correct a mistake unless you understand what the mistake was and who made it.”   This was the same culture that made Khomeini (who when entered Iran said I am a student and want to go to Ghom and continue my studies) into the killer monster he became. The same culture that today is making a dictator representative of God from Khameneie. Shah was a dictator period. He made many disasters mistakes (sucha as Dr Mosaddegh affairs, founding of Savaak, un-controlled powers of his family, wide spread corruption…. and the list goes on and on and on).

You get NO argument there from me . However it was people around him and also the rest of us who trough our self centred behaviour or aur dier need for someone with absolute power and consequential Chaaploosey that did not point him to his faults and did not make him to face up to and correct his erroneous ways.

We even accommodated for his tyranny to grow. Except a few isolated voices the rest of us were happy to get on with our own lives and protect our own interest even if it meant playing to the tunes of the establishment.

The same thing that currently is happening with Bazaar, mosques, charities and with the rest of our people with regards to the IRI today   If the problem was shah and only shah then our country should have become a beckon of democracy after he left. But it did NOT. So!  What happened? Why did the next leader under a totally different system, ideology and many slogans of democracy become a dictator even worst and more incompetent than him and why it continued even to the one after?

Furthermore, why is it that today even the opposition groups (such as MKO, communists, Toodeh party, Greens and monarchists) most of whom were fighting shah and are now fighting the IRI are run by mini dictators at the top. Why they have dictatorial, totalitarian views and ideologies. Why are they refusing to listen to each other's point of view? Why they are refusing to compromise or accept their own mistake, believing as if their's is the only way and they are the only one with the right to the absolute power, dismissing the rest of us as being either stupid or traitors.

Why is that today none of these groups can even bring themselves to sit around the same table with their counterpart as equals, draft a common manifesto and form a coalition.  Finally why is that in every argument I am being accused of either being a monarchist or an IRI apologist depending on the commentator’s point of view  Even in this argument between the two of us we are still refusing to face up to our responsibilities and consequences of our own action or accepting that maybe just maybe we I have also made an error of judgment. You see my dear hamvatan! It is very easy to talk about democracy and accuse other party of being a dictator when you are not in power.

As we can not do much and even our stubborn persistence on our belief that “my way is the only way and I am the only one with the whole truth” can go unnoticed unchallenged and without harming anyone.

But when one gets into power with these attitudes it would only be then when the disaster of having such state of mind will unfold. Hence in that sense my friend, YES! shah was only one person like the rest of us.

Although he was part of the problem, he did not cause the entire problem and that was why his departure did not solve a single problem.

As the root of our problems was laying somewhere else. In our culture of “Dictator Parvari.”   Now the choices ahead are clear to me. We can either face up to our mistakes and learn from them or continue in the same vicious cycle of   “Ki bood ki bood man naboodam” for ever and ever and ever   Your Choice or I better say   OUR CHOICE  

Areyo Barzan, Shah is "one person" now?

He had the entire Government, military, schools and you name it (the entire country) under his command and you're saying he was "one person"? Like the rest of us? 

You can't correct a mistake unless you understand what the mistake was and who made it.  Shah himself understood it when he said "I heard your revolutionary voices".  You're still blaming the mistake on another entity? say Iranian people?

Everything is sacred

good article

I agree the revolution was a mistake from the beginning.  It should not have taken place.  We now see what a good system was replaced by a dark aged mentality.  The Iranian people deserve what they got.  I gladly boast, I never voted for this regime (at a time when it was fashionable to do so), i voted against the regime of god or his cholagh representative on earth.  I only say, i am glad it happened, so once and for all we see how God's will on people leads to the same dictorships, that god willed for Hitler or Stalin.  I hope once and for all we can push religion aside and consider it dead.

WOW!!! What a breath of fresh air

I must admit, I have not read such honest impartial and blunt analysis for a long time.

I hope one day all the Iranians have your courageous to look into our past and be able to identify admit and correct our errors, as indeed this would be out only way out of this mess

And to my dear Anonymous hamvatan I want to say

Azizam, No one is denying that Shah have made many mistakes as well

But the point here is to face up to our own mistakes and not making excuses or looking for escape goats. This issue is more important than one person, being Shah or Khomeini or even one regime like Shah’s dictatorship or Khomeini’s religious tyranny.

This about the future. About us facing up to our own mistakes and accepting our faults and NOT in order to score cheap political points or pointing finger of accusation towards each other, but to learn from our mistakes once and for all and leave a legacy for the future generations to prevents them from falling into the same trap

Very true, Dr. Bagher Zadeh

I agree with you on all the points you made.  IRI/IRR has been backwarded, barbaric, criminal & thief since inception.  If Mosavi is still looking for Emam Rahel's peried because he has contaminated hands with blood of Iranians in that period and most probably he himself orchestrated those policies.

فعلا همینی که هست.

هیچ کس کفّ دستشو بو نکرده بود.  شاید بعضی‌‌ها بو کرده بودند ولی‌ با چند نفر که نمی‌شه انقلاب کرد.

رضا شاه رفت، ممد رضا شاه اومد، شاه رفت، خمینی اومد.  خمینی رفت، خامنه‌ای اومد. خامنه‌ای میره، من و شما میریم، کی‌ قراره بیاد؟

همون مردمی که زیر پوشش جنبش سبز دارن با استبداد مبارزه میکنند، باز ماندگان همون‌های هستند که با استبداد شاه مبارزه کردند.  شاید برای ایران همین بهتر بود که استبداد مذهبی‌ بیاد و تمام و کامل خودشو نشون بده که مردم ایران دیگه هوس دولت مذهبی‌ نکنند.

اشتباه داریم تا اشتباه. شاه هم اشتباه کرد، نکرد؟ کی‌ بیشتر مسئول "اشتباه" ۱۳۵۷ هست؟ شاه یا مردم؟ 

Everything is sacred

thanks very much

great article

motoshakeram 

great

اگر شما ایران برید و متوجه میشود که اکثر ملت از انقلابی که صحبتش هست .همیشه میگند در زمان مرحوم شاه زندگی اینجوری بود و افسوس میخورند که چه اشتباهی و چه خیانتی به کشور و ملت و شاه کردند. زمانیکه ملت امادگی و یا دانش سیاست و اشنایی از کشورهای دیگر نداره و فهم ازادی را ندارد بایستی هیچ انتظاری جز حسرت گذشته را نداشت. سیاستمدارهای ما کیها بودند و چه منظوری از ازادی داشتند. ایا فکر ملت و یا میهن میکردند و یا دنبال قدرت و پول و ثروت بودند. ایا زمان انقلاب کسی خبر داشت که خمینی مخالف رای زنان در انتخابات و یا مخالف دادن زمین به کشاورزان بود ایاملت خبرداشتند که خمینی بازیچه انگلیسها بود. ایا کومنیستها به شوروی رفته و انجا زندگی کرده بودند و ایا میدانستند که انها یک مافیا هستند که ملت را بازور تفنگ نگه داشته اند و ایا احضاب دیگر که کمکهای مالی میگرفتند ایا سوال میکردندکه این خارجیها چرا کمک میکنند. خوب پس چرا الان با این همه عربده کشی از غربیها کمکی برای ازادی خواهان نیست. چرا اوباما پارسال لال شد و هیچی نگفت. الان ما همه امیدوارم که درک و فهم این را داریم که هیچ کسی سراغ پدرمان را نمیگیرد و فقط سراغ مادرمان هستند. ما ایرانیها هنوز فکر میکنیم که مقصر شاه بود ولی اقرار نمیکنیم که مقصر ما بودیم که نفهم بودیم. زمانی که شاپور بختیار از ملت میخواست که فرصت بدید تا با هم به هدفمان برسیم . خوب ما چی گفتیم حزب فقط حزبالعه و رهبر خمینی. زمانی که پدرم میگفت ما هنوز دهاتی هستیم و نمیفهیم که چه چیزی میخواهیم در جواب من و برادرم تمام عقل بودیم و پدر ما هنوز درک نمیکنه.
کسانی مثل اقایان موسوی پارچه فروش و بازاری هنوز فکر میکنند که ملت ایران احمق اند و درک نمیکنند که ملت پارسال برای ایشان بیرون نیامدند بلکه اقایون موسوی و اطرافش تعجب کردند با دید اقیانوس ملت و بخاطر ان هم هست رژیم اسلامی هرروز ول کن نیست و طوری خامنه ای ترسیده که خیال این روزی را نمیکرد. ما ملت اشتباهات خود  را بایستی با افتخار و یا با شرم بگوییم چونکه این اشتباه نبود بلکه خیانت به وطن و فرزندان امروز وفردا بود.