USA

By The Way,Christianity is Persian

 //www.farsinet.com/wisemen/magi.html

That goes for you too Vile-mouse

 You're welcome to get the FFFFFFF OUT of Christian Zionist America ANY FREAKING DAY BABY!

Looks like you were WRONG jalil

 I'm sure it's NOT the first time the value of your opinion hasn't been worth the turdstool you constantly leave. If you're in America,I'm sure YOU are the one who is hiding..

"The purpose of separation

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
-James Madison (1803)

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness--unknown

جناب امیدیار

دین و مذهب را با حکومت و سیاست نباید قاطی کرد :)

در اروپا چند صد سال این برنامه بود - انقدر مردم ذله شدند که پاپ را گذاشتن تو واتیکان، و دولت را سکولار کردن :)

شما اگه تشریف ببرید اروپا،می بینید که پیشرفته ترین کشورای دنیا در اروپای غرب هست ... همراه با امریکا ... ! دین و مذهب جدا ... حکومت و سیاست جدا ... !

ما متاسفانه در ایران عزیز هنوز این درسا یاد نگرفتیم - السلام والسلام .. :) !

Separtion of Church and State and Socializing Religion

There are two broad interpretations of the Establishment clause today. The first as you noted is that government shall not establish a state religion or favor one religious sect over another. The American revolution was in part a movement to overcome the religious authority of the church of England - the Framers were weary of religion as a mask of power in society. Prohibiting government from establishing a state religion was a way of promoting religious pluralism in society. This means that while the state should refrain from making value judgments among competing religions or sects, they could still broadly favor religion and faith as the moral compass of society. The central purpose is to protect religious minorities who were oppressed in England.

 Until recently the national day of prayer was a clear indication that government can support religion in society without directly promoting one particular faith. However, this national event was recenlty found to violate the constitution's establishment clause because it excessively entangled government with religion and didn't serve a secular purpose - it was to promote prayer, and the fact is people don't need a state sponsored prayer day to engage in prayer - we have the free exercise clause which allows each to choose according to his or her conscience.

The sponsorship test was first articulated by Justice O'connor. This is the more radical view of the establishment clause that basically holds that the state should not promote religion generally. Doing so creates a "class of outsiders" among non-religious people and this would violate other principles enshrined in our bill of rights. This is broader and extends protections from mere religious minorities to non-religious people such as atheists and secular minded americans.

Today, there is a movement to draw us into the realm of the original interpretation of the Establishment Clause where government could once promote religion generally as long as it doesn't favor one religion over the other. This can be seen in Obama's handling of the mosque controversy where he asked Americans to respect Islam and in his promotions of interfaith harmony.  It is important to understand that the Establishment clause, as understood by the colonialists was not an affront to religion but a way to promote religious pluralism in society. Government could promote religion, even actively, as long as religious minorities were not being oppressed.

However, the supreme court has moved away from this old view that focuses on religious minorities by promoting a faith-based democratic society where religions can compete safely to one where religion and democracy are not synonymous. So the supreme court has answered your question in the positive - state sponsorship absolutely offends the free exercise clause by creating a class of outsiders. That Iran's constitution provides constitution protections of minorities doesn't appear to have any real social acceptence by conservatives. There is no free exercise of religion in Iran. Free exercise entails personal choice and freedom to decide . The Tea Party will not be able to create a Christian state, but they may help drag our Establishment clause jurisprudence back to it's original state where government actively promotes religion and prayer in schools and other public facilities. This will undoubtedly assist the religious right in pushing its agenda. But is will also further divide our nation and devalue secular protections and free thought.

who's hiding

In respomse to bushtheliberator, note the following:
1) The good news is that the tea partiers are losing just about everywhere
2) This confirms that the majority of americans don't support them and your message of hatred and stupidity and your arrogance.
3) All this is not a coincidence because noone is hiding from these christian "terrorists" (fearmongers) - they are being confronted headon.the majority is crushing them. In delaware cooms is 20 points ahead.

As for your attic, The majority will crush you and the christian fascists first.

Obama had the widest voting margin in a presidential election in a generation ...something bush envies. Obama did not need a brother in office in florida to steal an election. The republicans will not take the senate. There will be nothing to celebreate.

So sit in your attic and hide your head in shame you are definitely on your way out on your way to hell. You are blatantly evil - with nothing constructive to add to the discussion.

Ayatoilet 1, don't worry ! You'll be safe !

I'm hopeing that  those Tea Party Christians WIN their races,

But if the Christian mobs come to get you,

You, and Obama can hide in my attic.

Thanks Pierre for great topic

I as Iranian American supporting separation of religion from state.  It would be tragic for America to follow a style like IRAN.  I wish it ends in IRAN soon.

Ayatoleite1:  Thanks for your great contribution to this blog.  Greatly appreciated.

What We Should Do

I not only agree with the premise of the article, but I think there are immediate actions we can take in suport of the premise. Its pointless just talking about this issue, we have to take concrete steps to "protect" the separation of chruch and state here.

As you might know, I feel so passionate about this issue, that after many years of passive political interest, just recently (about a month ago) I started a TV show on Rang-a-rang tv on Sunday night (9:15 -11pm) about this exact issue - under the Ayatoilet (character). Yes, I wear an outfit (like a mullah) with a toilet roll on my head, and speak about this issue (primarily). I am really thrilled about the response to the show, and I have recieved numerous emails (ayatoilet@hotmail.com) in support of the show. Its been very gratifying.

My focus, has been to try to encourage the iranian-american community to participate in the Nov 2nd elections and at the very minimum NOT vote for the tea-party crowd. In delaware, where I have several operations, we have a Tea Party Candidate (Christine O'Donnell) who is the poster child of the United States of Christians crowd as you called it. I am also aware of sub-groupings among the tea party crowd (such as the 912 Patriots - who have regular rallies who want to go further - and actually deport non-christians - and hispanics [who last time I checked were Christians too]).

On my TV show, we have discussed many issues relating to this: but to be very brief (1) The people pushing this concept do not fully understand what exactly they mean; but are rallying behind the notion of a Christian Government as if it was the answer to everything - for example (are they going to set up a christian leadership somehow? If so will it be mormon, baptist, catholic, protestant?? Are they going to take the country back to days of prohibition or back the the dark ages of the first millenia (and back to burning Copernicus??)??). In effect it is a rallying cry for HATRED against minorities rather than a push for a better society. In fact it is well established that the members Christian right have a very high rate of divorce; and that many of their 'religious' leaders are very immoral ... There are many scientific studies that have shown that in fact (a) human beings are inately programed to be moral due to their social needs (and primates too exhibit many similar characteristics). Morality is not the sole domain of religion; and (b) crime and immorality are highly connected to social breakdowns (especially of the nuclear family). The Tea Party crowd have not thought deeply about the issues they are concerned about. religion is not the panacea; but give a Preacher a buck and he will tell you that it is. Religion is a business, and this is their latest money making scheme. Individual spirituality is good/great; organised religion (political religion) is corruptable.... and should not be promoted to this extent.

(2) That there is absolutely no question that there is a separation of church and state enshrined in the US constitution (and it goes beyond the 1st amendment). First of all there have been legal challenges that have held the 1st amendment intact and clearly defined it; secondly in the Treaty of Tripoli (1797) ratified by congress, submitted by no lesser than President John Adams it is clearly written as follows: "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, relgion or tranquility of [Muslims]"... Christine O'Donnell in a debate at widener University had no idea what the 1st Amendment actually said!! The pledge of Allegiance says one nation under GOD, not one Christian nation. There should be NO confusion about this.

(3) It is my humble view that if we oppose the theocracy in Iran, then we must oppose a theocracy here in the US. This US theocracy is very dangerous and can take on many of the characteristics of Iran's theocracy. You may not realise it, but they have a 'government in wings' waiting to take over; they have militias established in every state, etc etc. The point is - they are dangerous. The other factor here, which must be noted, is that this has become the vehicle of expression of anger by many white working class americans who are suffering economic hardship (with 3 million more homes going through foreclosure this year) - if this becomes the 'sole' means of expression of anger, it could become very dangerous for national security.

(4) Bottom line, we need to make sure that Tea Party candidates are NOT elected this November and that will surely fizzle some of this movement out. There are major races with Tea Party Candidates such as for exampl: Nevada (Sharron Angle), Colorado (Ken Buck), Delaware (Christine O'Donnell), Alaska (Joe Miller) ... to name a few where Tea Party candidates MUST lose. Their figurehead leaders such as Sarah Palin and others pandering to them Newt Gingrich should NOT be supported. Participating in elections is something we can do immediately.

We must take action. I urge Iranian-Americans to take this issue seriously and NOT vote for tea party candidates. This is a threat to the livelihood, and peace of the Iranian-American community. When you have someone like Geert Wilders being invited to speak to a Tea Party rally, from the Dutch Fascist party its really serious. 30 years ago the Ducth fascists were squarely behind the Afrikaans movement in South Africa (against Blacks - who last time I checked were Christians), 60 years ago they were rounding up jews for 7 gilders a head for the Nazi's, now they want to spin hatred against muslims.... A Dutch Fascist espousing Christians values.. How strange? 

This must stop. NOW. They can not win.