LANGUAGE

It is sometimes

hard to know what the roots of a word are. What is Arabic may have Persian roots and vice versa. My favorite line from George W. Bush "French don't have a word for entrepreneur".

For those who are unfamiliar "entrepreneur". The word entrepreneur comes from the 13th century French verb entreprendre, meaning to do something or to undertake. Well so much for language purity and so on. 

When you live right next to each other over 3000 years words mix. They go back and forth to a point it is sometimes impossible to tell the roots. Do we have nothing better than to argue whether Shahnameh has 3 % Arabic or 6 %?

Alphabet

Dear Khengali:

(Nice pen name!) From what I understand, our current alphabet derived from Arabic - with the exception of the symbols that signify their vowels. My concern about further deterioration of our language isn't the alphabet because that's already done. I now worry that in our anti-Arabic rush - which I do support - we should also be mindful of other damages being done through the daily use of other popular languages.

I have wholeheartedly invited others to this discussion. As for Shahnameh, I decided to put the question to a few scholars and would like to share the comment below coming from a Ferdowsi expert. Based on this, I stand corrected in my belief that Ferdowsi never used Arabic. However, this also leaves the door open for the hypothesis that the Arabic derivatives he used were indeed too familiar to be distinguished from true Persian. This has been most enlightening and just goes to show, we never stop learning!

". . . it  depends upon which edition one uses, but
the critical editions contain about 7% Arabic-derived vocabulary (whether Ferdowsi perceived the words as Arabic, is of course a separate question that we have to answer on a case-by-case basis.  For example, most every
American would identify perfectly well established English phrases like
coup-de-grace or coup d'etat or hors d'oeuvres or cafe au lait
as being French, but they would probably not identify information,nation, address, etc. as French, because they are now so much a central
part of English. In any case, the 7% is a very low
percentage compared to later Persian texts - say, for example, a ghazal from
the Safavid era might have about 25% Arabic vocabulary, whereas a text
about Sufism or philosophy from the 18th century might have about 45 to 60% Arabic-derived vocabulary." 

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Re: Shahnameh Alphabet

It iis pseudo Arabic meaning it was enhanced to have sounds missing in Arabic. Rudaki gets some credit for its development and use. For more information please see:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripts_used_for_Pers...

Other Persian speaking nations under Russian rule used Cyrillic alphabet. The Middle Persian alphabet was Din Dabire aka Avestan and variants of Aramaic.

Dear Ghahremani What is

Dear Ghahremani

What is the alphabet used by which to write Ferdowsi's Shahnameh and to read Ferdowsi's Shahnameh?.

Why do I ask? because some call it Arabic alphabet and some call it Persian alphabet. What say you?

Dear COP

I am not so sure about the damage. I was talking to some friends who were visiting from Iran. I told them I was going to "salmani" to get a hair cut. My friend right out of Iran corrected me  to say "arayeshgah".

When I said "Khoda hafez" they replied "Khoda negahdar". This is obviously a small sample. But may be a reaction to what you say the government is promoting. Best way to get people to not do something it to push it on them!

If the government pushed Persian words everyone will use Arabic. If the government pushes Arabic everyone will use Persian. It is in human nature (risking generalization) we Iranians are particularly yek dandeh.

More now than ever before

The past 3 decades have done great harm to our culture, identity and language and what remained of it. Just open a newspaper in Iran and see if you can get through a few lines without saying to yourself "what does that word mean, what does this word mean?". The use of gholombe solombeh (VPK's words) arabic words have skyrocketed in the past 30 years. So, if we were in trouble before, we are in deep do do now!

____________

IRAN FIRST

____________

Good point VPK

you wrote:" What bugs me is not that people say "fekr" or "vaght". It is when they speak such golombeh solombeh Arabic words. When as a Farsi speaker I am not able to get it without an Arabic dictionary.  There are people who think "educated" means using obscure (in Farsi) Arabic words. "

This is an excellent point. I also have little problem with Arabic words who have been used for decades and are part of our literature. However, what you note about using obscure Arabic words in Farsi, that is a bad practice, particularly when same people try to find equivalent words in Farsi for technical words.

A few responses

• Writing this article in English makes perfect sense. Because many of IC readers are not even Iranian. Children of Iranian diaspora may not speak Persian. Most of them have trouble with Farsi script. It is the ideas that matter.
• It is perfectly reasonable to want to have fewer Arabic words in Farsi. You don't have to speak Pahlavi (Middle Persian) to desire this. Many Jews who revived Hebrew in Israel did not speak it well originally. They learned it.
• Arabic in Shahnameh is another "red herring". First of all the vast majority of Shahnameh is in Persian that is beyond dispute. The Arabic verses may well have been added later on. Just as praises of Shia Imams most likely were added. Now assume Shahnameh does have 1 or even 5 % Arabic: who cares? I still prefer to have Farsi transform into more Persian and less Arabic.

Yes I may have trouble finding a word to replace "vaght" with "hangam". But in time it is possible. You don't get there if you don't try and it is worth it. What bugs me is not that people say "fekr" or "vaght". It is when they speak such golombeh solombeh Arabic words. When as a Farsi speaker I am not able to get it without an Arabic dictionary.  There are people who think "educated" means using obscure (in Farsi) Arabic words. If you want decent modern Persian read Kasravi; it is a pleasure to do.

Mrs Ghahremani

I feel obliged to ask:

are you the writer who asked everyone to vote for your book?

If so, did you ever thank all those who voted for your book? (I'm not one of them, I'm just asking)

Afsaneh Jan good to see you

I want you to know you have been greatly missed and your contribution is very valuable. 

I hope you reconsider and continue with your hafez blog as well.  

welcome back 

: ) 

95%

Zohreh jan - not to mention as a PS to my below post, that this "losing" is only happening in the diaspora community that represents around 5% of Iran.

Last time I was in Iran, a mere 2 years ago, the language was alive and kicking!

It's like saying just because Al Pacino's Italian is rusty, then the Italian language is falling apart. It isn't. I visit Italy regularly and they speak it as beautifully as always.

Personally, I'm glad you keep your literary heritage alive. Within the diaspora's under 45 year-olds - knowledge of the Persian Masters - stands at around 3-5%. That worries me more, than how much English they are peppering into their tongue. The English know their Shakespeare, the Italians know their Verdi, and our community abroad is severed from the knowledge of being the birthplace of one of the world's #1 rated literary traditions. We proudly wear the "Hakhamaneshi" necklace, while clueless as to what it actually represents. I'm more worried about severance from what "Persian" actually means (aside from vacuous "pride") -- than a few English words being thrown in.

In our Hafez classes, if the students feel better equipped to express themselves in English, having been born here - I don't stop them. There's more to being "Persian" than speaking "Persian", and if they can "get" the poem and express their feelings for the profound concepts present in them, in English, that's fine. They learn the poem itself in Persian of course. Being Persian is a sentiment to me, beyond speaking, alone. I focus on the students understanding the profound "mysticism" of Persian culture, and whether in Japanes, English or Spanish, I could facilitate that. Those who then can study the poem in its authentic language, too - have an added edge.

(Which is why I encourage friends to teach their kids how to read and write. Some of the Hafez students speak fluent farsi, but can't read and write. It's such a shame.) 

95% v. 5% 

Bottom line,  the Persian language itself is alive and well in its homeland where 95% still live. Just as the Italian example. So, maybe this is the sadness of the 5% diaspora community, and less a crisis in the language itself. 

As for the 5% diaspora community - America has seen the Greeks, the Italians, the Germans all lose their mother tongue after 1-2 generations. I'm not going to pretend suddenly that that won't happen to us. But to me, the thing to not lose is your adherance to the Persian contribution to world cultural history. These kids' Farsi will get rustier and rustier, but so long as they know Hafez - (who is a world not just a Persian phenomenon), their Rumi, the profundity of the mysticism of their culture, that's an achievable goal. My students come to 8 classes - and go home with 8 hand-selected Ghazals. I'm not going to stop the "change" that all these other immigrant communities went through - but making sure they don't throw away the basics of their culture, that's something I can do something about.

I hope this perspective helps! Aside from teaching Hafez in my free time, I also have "Persian reading and writng" classes for kids. I don't expect them to speak perfect Farsi, like their Greek or Italian-American friends don't with their native tongues, either. But learning the script would mean when they are 27 and want to figure out what Persian culture represents, via its masters - they could then actually read the poetry via a facilitating class.

Just find something in your heart that makes you feel you're helping with whatever preservation you deem necessary, Zohreh jan. That is always a priceless thing to do, and makes one feel less helpless.

I rarely come to this site anymore - but it was fun to come across this article! Thank you! 

Afsaneh

Understanding languages

I was with two Germans one day. I know English but not German. They were having a private conversation together. It surprised them when I understood about 50%. That does not mean German is the same as English or Farsi. I picked up queues from their body language and similarities between the words. 

Having said that I find it impossible to hold a technical conversation in Farsi. I don't know what C++ object derivations is in Farsi. I have to switch to English. 

Scripts vs language

These are two different things. We may write Persian in any of a number of scripts. Just like Turkey switched its alphabet. The true Persian script is Din Dabireh which was invented by the Sassanids and is rarely used today.

As for the pseudo Arabic vs. Latin alphabet who cares? Neither are Persian so we might as well use whatever is the most convenient. I see plenty of Persian writing using the Latin alphabet.

Anahid jaan indeed!

There are currently 2 new articles on the front page.  One a poetry and one about the MEK.  Both authors have provided Farsi translations in the belog section!  I don't think they cared about the font or software one bit! 

Everything is sacred

To add to "Esfand" 's comment

I used to use Zamaneh editor for my Farsi poems but my Farsi typing is even slower than my English typing. So now I use "Behnevis" once in a while. As Esfand also mentioned, the key is to understand that sometimes you have to make corrections when you use Behnevis. It takes an effort and granted that poems are easier than articles, and short stories but it does take an effort, no denying it. I have to say that we are lucky that IC has a good interface for Farsi typing, so you cannot really blame not typing in Farsi on lack of fonts, software or IC. It takes an effort and if people are not familiar enough with language, not aware of all present software and tools, not patient or just don't have time, they should be honest rather than blaming it on software, lack of fonts, etc.

i.com uses only one font.

Why do you care about a Persian font when i.com uses only one font?  Whatever font you use when you copy and paste it into the i.com it comes out as the font we currently read in the Farsi articles.

You can use behnevis.com and make changes to the words for the correct spelling, the problem is lazyness!  It takes an effort but it doesn't have to be a long article.  You can start with a small blog or article and if you liked it try something more substantial.

Since using behnevis I've come to like writing in Farsi every now and then, specially in the comments section.  It is very nice and some things are better said in Farsi, more fun!

As for mixing English or Arabic into the "pure" Farsi, it doesn't really matter.  Those who are super sensitive about using pure Farsi will use it and carry the torch until their last dying gasp.  Average people use a language to communicate and have more important things to worry about. 

Everything is sacred

Good point!

Now that's what I call a constructive discussion! What an interesting article.

With my passion for literature, throughout the past forty years of life away from Iran, I have never been without a Persian book at my side - both poetry and prose. And trust me, that wasn't so easy during the late 1970's and early 1980's!

Given a chance, I attend classes, look forward to poetry nights and travel across the country to join literary conferences. Neither distance, nor time has barred me from Iran's contemporary literature - though sometimes that means only reading the winners of Golshiri award and/or memorizing Shafii-Kadkani. There's much to learn and so little time to do so. But sadly, I'm also among what's left of the "old school."

So it should be no surprise to hear me worry about the future of my beautiful language. Reading Hafez and Rumi is great, but there's more, so much more.

Persian

I am for reviving our language which we call it Persian in English.  Thanks for trying to bring up our short comings. 

Persian Poetry

This is an interesting article. I wanted to share some facts  Over 60% of English words have Latin (and some Greek) roots

FERDOWSI v. HAFEZ  

While Ferdowsi was adamant about not using any Arabic, some 350 years later, Hafez is blending Arabic into Persian effortlessly

Ferdowsi surfaces out of the tail end of the first caliphate (Umayyad) 's highly anti-Persian rule. Although the Abbassid's are in power, these guys like Rudaki and Ferdowsi, came up gasping for air

Hafez belongs to an era with the second caliphate (Abbasids) in full swing. The Abbassids had allowed for huge Persian influence, cultural, administrative, etc.  The Persians even convinced their capital to be moved to Baghdad (itself an old Persian word meaning God's justice.) Baghdad became a synthesis of Persian, India, Greek etc. cultures - hence the Golden Age of Islam

In other words... perhaps when changes happen peacefully, people don't show much resistance. Hafez is happy to draw from his Arabic lexicon

And the English language example I threw in, so we don't feel overly sad about change

PERSIAN THROUGH OUR POETRY 

One way to keep the Persian language alive is to actually study the vast array of Persian literature. No matter how "tanbal" or "lazy" my Hafez student gets, we can only speak Hafez (or Ferdowsi) in the language they were written. So, I did want to calm your fears on that front. Our literary heritage won't have the "car" vs. "khodro" issue - those enormous artisitc ahievements are set in the language that created their beauty

A nice line from Hafez helping us to keep our faith

بی دلی در همه احوال خدا با او بود

او نمیدیدش و از دور خدایا می  کرد

Bi del-i  dar hameh ahval khoda ba ou boud

Ou nemididash, o az door khodaya mikard 

I love the above Beyt. No matter how much our language "evolves" - we'll be speaking Hafez in its authentic and original tongue

(YouTube: "Learning from Hafez in DC") - just for those who're interested

I wanted to contribute to your piece - Zohreh jan. So that some depth could be added to the dicsourse... but I'll go and duck now, as the shrapnel and all that stuff that is fired on this site (the kind of behavior that made us lose Iran in the first place) will soon surely, come. I'd personally rather we weeded out our toxic behavior, than the odd Arabic or English word - if you know what I mean ....  smiles. ..... well, nervous smiles

If we honor our vast literary heritage - which blows my mind with each class that I teach - we will not only experience some of the most beautiful poetry in the world, one of the world's deepest mystical traditions too, but be sure to preserve our culture

In otherwords - by remaining culturally literate, our "Language" won't die. In between the visits to the chelo-kababi, enrol in a Hafez, Sa'adi or Rumi class, too - and our language will stay alive. That's in many ways the beauty of the Shahnameh, too. If Ferdowsi had written a grammar book, it would not have impacted the culture the way it did. Be cultured, don't succumb to a lazy lifestyle,  and you'll speak plenty good Persian. It's our own iliteracy that is killing our language, as much as any foreign invasion

Afsaneh

Please don't shoot!

Can't we have a normal discussion without someone flying off the handle? This article is not in "Farsi-e-sareh" because so far none of the experts have succeeded to download a usable Persian font on my computer. Even when we finally do that, I will have a lot to learn on typing.

Thank you for forwarding the link to Ferdowsi's poem, however, many experts believe these versions are not the original. Further elaboration on this will take much more than a couple of paragraphs. I enjoy reading the comments, but for some reason there seems to be a lot of undue anger out there. Trust me, my article is not personal. I simply put a general comment out there - an ovbservation, if you will - and perhaps an invitation for some constructive discussion. it would be nice to hear from those who know more. How wonderful it would be if for once we could keep the discussion civil :-)

خانم جان شما چرا به فارسی‌ سره نمی‌‌نویسی؟

I dare say konam khedmatetoon...

A definite sign that a marriage  is on the rocks is when one spouse is on the  "ouch" side, while the other is still in "aakh" mode..........

We always let nature take its course!

We always let nature take its course!