ASHOORA

Ahmadinejad is a good President for the Iranian People

70 million Iranian deserve the President Ahmadinejad.

Re: Animals and mankind

I agree that human soul can flactuate as low as below animals and as close as to God. That is the freedom we possess.
As for the JOURNEY, Rumi says....in order to leap to next level, we need to die - Die of the present status we possess.Once we let go our bad habits, we free selves and stair-case towards perfection. The change in spirit is very time independent as compared to physical change. That shows how soft our soul is. Repentance is a powerfull force within us that elevates soul suddenly. It's a joy ride towards eternity. Repentance is analogous to Capitulation in the stock market and in nuclear reaction it's referred to as Critical-mass. Once the sins accumulate and reaches that critical mass, the soul can not bear it and opts to get rid of the burden.

I also agree with Nadia. I heard some spiders (moms) become food source for their offsprings and vice-versa. It Animal domain, it's the instinct as the poem says:
Scorpion bites is the cause of instinct;
It's nature make it bite;

Peace for all mankind;

Of course animals

don't kill each other with guns and bombs. No offense but it is unrealistic. Animals tend to tear each other to shreds with their teeth and claws. Have you ever seen what a pit bull can do to a child. It is horrendous when a child is mauled by an animal. 

solh va doosti

Nadia

Lostidentity: Animals have

Lostidentity: Animals have souls and are quite intelligent in their own way and sometimes much more intelligent than humans. They don't kill their own kind with guns and bombs. They are not as violent as we humans are.

WATCH THIS BEFOR YOU VOTE

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3gQfz8GC0o

I registered quite a while ago ..

Salaam again Rosie T. Khanuum,
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Apparently he was primarily an alchemist and a scientist "as well". (My favorite English man, by far.)
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AlhamdALLAH, thank you for your comment. Would you please amplify your feedback: Is it terse or obscure? The intent is to communicate effectively.
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So, simplify or elaborate?
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/& Salaam

I agree with you fully, and Newton..

was an alchemist as well...but you see I'm dealing here with polarized viewpoints and the further the polarization, the more one must attempt to utilize the language of distinction and category in order to communicate at the initial level.  Ultimately the Sacred and Secular Enlightenments are one and the same, and they are right now like two children crying out for their lost mother, which is each other. But if I attempted to communicate as you do to me a lot of people wouldn't understand me. Different strokes for different folks and to all things turn...there is a season (Ecclesiastes). Thank you for your beautiful post. I'll re-read it several times. I hope others do as well...

PS Please register.

Isaac or Rene. Now that is the question.

Salaam Rosie T.,
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A minor point perhaps, but this statement -- "As the destructive power of the scientific revolution, sine qua non of the Enlightenment" -- contains 2 rather large errors (in my pov).
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I'm reading this wonderful book by brother Irving Karchmar ('Master of the Jinn') and in it we have a rabbi discoursing on how the Ring of Solomon, though Divine in Origin, did not posses any power on its own. It required a Solomon (SBUH) and thus channeled the intent of its user.
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Would it be too controversial for you for one to assert this is the same as regards to Science. After all, Aql is a Gift from Allah. Science is the secular version of the Ring of Solomon (SBUH). (Our problem is that it is the un-Godly who are wearing it .. but that is the second point.)
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My dictionary says this about sine qua non(s): "an essential condition; a thing that is absolutely necessary : grammar and usage are the sine qua non of language teaching and learning."
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Enlightenment, not in its actual sense (stripped of all cultural biases) but in the sense of that which is indicative of the mind-set of the intelligentsia of (relatively) recent European history, is not enlightenment at all.
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The fundamental philosophy underlying the Western metamorphosis from a (madly) religious continent to a (sadly) godless one is the adoption (as True Gospel) the siren song of the luciferian illumination.
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You must know that the very gentleman who kick started the "scientific revolution", a certain Sir Isaac Newton, was devoutly Christian and a (secret) Unitarian/Arian at that! (Do you know dear Isaac is the only Don at Oxford who did not profess to Trinity before taking his office?)
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//www-personal.ksu.edu/~lyman/english233/Volt...
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//gonashgo.blogspot.com/2008/01/283sir-isaac-...
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The issue, the crux of the issue, remains what the (2nd) link above mentions in terms of the contention between "Newtonians" and "Cartesians".
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As you know, Rene did say "I think therefor I am!".
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But he didn't immediately follow with "La Ilaha ila ALLAH", which dear Isaac most certainly would have (both before and after!)
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The Ring of Science adorns the crooked finger of the godless. They use it to conjure Atomic Weapons, and Genetic (re?)Engineering of Biosphere (components), etc.
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There is nothing wrong with Science. There is nothing inherently violent about it.
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Science is like a Spear. One can use a spear to slit the side of a Christ on a Cross. But yet the same spear in the hand of the same Christ is what brings down the Dejjal.
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The key error of the West, then, is the assumption that Man is an 'independent' god. Now, the very first Revelation of The Qur'an addressed this very specific point (down to the current denial of prayer to Muslims!)
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It is a very beautiful and powerful Sura (and it says it all). SobhanALLAH!
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//forgiving-merciful.net/quran/suras/096/inde...
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/& Salaam!

Thank you all for your posts, so much, so rich, where...

do I begin? So many Anonymouses with numbers. Why aren't you registered?

The problem is one of balance.  When we examine the history of Islam and the "West" (Christendom) we find in reality an interlacing web of evolution, going actually further back to the formation of Greek consciousness in direct response to the balance of power with Persia, and Alexander's conquering the "world", which was Persia. The marvelous discussion here about Flagellantism being the root of Ashura serves to corroborate the point very nicely. From the interlocking roots of Christianity, Mithraism Mazdaism and ethical Judaism, on to Islam, then to the Abassid scholars salvaging civilization from the jaws of early Christian ignorace to pave the way for the Renaissance, we have one great civilization that is out of balance. Now those areas (Christendom) of that civilization influenced by the Secular Enlightenment protect individual rights and claim to abhor violence while in reality they have given mroe violence than any other civiization. And yet, the IDEAL remains. As the destructive power of the scientific revolution, sine qua non of the Enlightenment, grows, we see, as I argued, a growth of another kind of more primitive, legally institutioalized violence in the SHaria countries.  We're out of whack. Most of us shudder at Ashura's mortifications but we rarely shudder at our own cannibalism as we consume in the US 75% of the world's resources on a suicide run down a cliff of humanity and our president defies the Kyoto Accords.  Violence.

We have to find balance.  The secular West will have to stop throwing out the baby with the bath water of the Enlightenment and recover those aspects of Coyne's "perfectionistic" societies which are precisely those collective human values Adorno and Horkheimer lamented the loss of in the progressive dehumanization and quantification of the technological "West" (remember:  Holocaust victims were PRODUCTS;  their hair, for example, stuffed pillows). At the same time, these crane-hanging situations in Iran and elsewhere, what appear to me "shadow reactions" to the Colonialism and global-scale violence of the west" have to go. Those countries will have to salvage from the dregs of Hiroshima what is good and noble of the IDEALS of the secular West.

There is no choice but balance. And Iran must pave the way, as she did in classical times with her cylinder, as she did with her scholars in al-Andaluz, as she did with her Sufi poets...Iran must pave the way. It's her historical mission. That;s why she's Shia, not Sunni. That's why her Islam is a complex synchretism of Mazdaism, Turkic shamanism, Christianity, Judaism WITH Islam...even Buddhism had a large influence in Iran. That's why she's Iran...her spirituality knows no names and all names.  That's why she gave us the Simorgh.

And you're in it, right now, you're in the collective mind. So see things with BALANCE...be horrified if you must at Ashura's violence but DON'T do it hypocritically without recognizing the violence of the lens of the Secular Enlightenment with which you view it. Make fun of Ahmadinejad for being a redneck ignorant thug if you like but don't forget the "intellect" of George Bush.  Don't forget that minority youth in this country up to college level is largely functionally illiterate and scores lower on all standardized tests than any developed country in the world.  Feel what you feel and say what you say, but don't be hypocritcal or there will NEVER be balance...and the same goes for the religious and certain strands of the "left".  Stop apologizing when monsters are monstrous.  Defend Ashura and flagellation if that is what you feel but don't forget the youth hanging from hydraulic cranes over the major highways of Tehran. SURELY they deserved SOME values from the Secular Enlightenment, as do the drivers of the cars who have to look at them...face the truth, scrupulously....and seek balance, integration.

The truth shall set us free.

One great civilization, now one global village.  Balance. Mizooni, midooni?

Re: A Bazaree....

Very true about Good Friday and Ashura paralleling each other.....After all the source, the mission, the Message and the destination are all the same.

Some say that some rituals for Ashura are copied from Christian rituals for Jesus. Well, it is a historical fact. We wear Jeans too - What does it mean? We also borrowed "Zangeer zani" from India.
It is interesting to know that the clergy in Iran considers "Ghame or Shamshir zani" as forbidden and haram.

Peeshraft

very good ahmadi... very good... only crying and no more blading on the head and beating on the back... this is called progesss on the march and it is gonna be good for rial to start dancing tango tight with rial as two equal afte couple of martini

Good Friday and Ashura

Salaam,
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Masada was the final chapter of the political resistance to Roman occupation by the post-Messianic Judeans led by Judas ("the Hammer").
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This same (and immediately preceding generations of) Judeans (claim in the Talmud) that they were responsible for the (alleged) crucification of Jesus Christ (SPUHA), which ironically (?) also involved the use of hammers.
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The folks in Masada were freedom fighters, true. But they were suffering the consequences of opposing God's Chosen. What happened in Judea 2000 years ago was foretold by the Chosen One that they (allegedly) hammered to a cross.
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Thus, Good Friday, is far more appropriately analogous to the event of Ashura. In both cases, a Chosen Shepard lays down his life, just like Jesus said he should and would, in The Gospels.
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And of course, the return of Christ is not only analogous with the 'Return' of a Son of Ali (AS), Imam Mahdi (AS), in principle, but according to Hebrew Prophets (Isa, Zach), and of course our own Beloved Prophet (SAWS), will be coincidental also in time and place and far more importantly, Spiritual Purpose.
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/& Salaam

Re: Rosie....secular enlightenment

I appreciated your reasonable and eloquent thoughts about the subject. I surely agree with essence of what you say. However, there's asublte differentce and differing view I come to. True that human life is sacred...as Quran says, if an innocent life is taken, it is equual to as if all human on earth was killed. I guess the key question is why? What makes human life more sacred than a dog or a tree or a stone? (I do not mean to devalue animals and other things that may be sacred to others). To me, what makes us being the highest value creature is our intelligence and soul. These are the too components that are dear and sacred to mankind in general. Some people find it more important to even die for or kill for. Some have a point in doing that and some go crazy and lash their rage on whatever moves. The major distinction is "Justice". The irony is that most wars (at personal or national levels) start with both sides pretending to fight for Justice (or freedom).

As for inflicting pain on oneself, It is forbidden strongly in Islam to cause harm on self. Why these people do it? They say that they do it because they were not in Karbala to help Imam Hossein and they feel their ancesters betrayed him. Don't we do this everyday by going to work that we don't like, living with someone we don't love, eating habits to the point of suicide or hating ourselves for what we can't achieve? What is this STRESS if NOT a MODERN SELF-INFLICTING PAIN? We seem to notice physical pain easily but silently pass by spiritual or mental pain.

Masada and Ashura

any similarities?

Ahmadi Nejad Picture In Dicionary

If they put Ahmadi-Nejad,s picture on Dictionay what world will discribe him,I thought of so many words but none of them is decent enough for this page ,what is the first world you come up with????

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To:

To: Rosie

From:

//andrewcoyne.com/2006/02/cartoon-violence.ph...

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Let me try to add something semi-new to the debate.

What seems to be happening isn't so much a clash of civilizations, as it is a clash of concepts of civilisation: Much of the Islamic world remains largely what philosophers call a "perfectionist" society. On perfectionist views, it is the function of society to promote the moral and spiritual perfection of each person, according to a shared conception of the good life. In a perfectionist society, there is no distinction between church and state, or between law, religion, and morality.

The West – or perhaps better, Christendom -- used to be a perfectionist society, oriented around a common and publicly enforced vision of human excellence. That's why we felt the need for things like Crusades and Inquisitions. Then we had schisms, reformations, and whole lot of religious warfare. As Christendom became the West, it (gradually) ceased to be a perfectionist society organized around common moral values (“the good”) and became a society organized around certain liberal principles (“the right.”)

What is important to note is that our ancestors in the West didn’t choose our liberal freedoms because they woke up one day and decided that they preferred liberalism over perfectionism. It is that they eventually realized – after centuries of fighting about it – that the only alternative to religious toleration was perpetual war. But religious toleration is the thin edge of the liberal wedge. Once you allow a man to say that he has different Gods than you or that there is no God at all, it is hard to set any principled limit on what anyone can say, about anything at all.

Looked at it from this perspective, Fukuyama’s thesis of the "End of History" comes across not as a final triumphalist victory for the West, but as the inevitable consequence of the exhaustion of reasonable alternatives. Liberalism isn't a reflection of our deepest values, but a second-best regime more or less forced upon the societies of the West.

This is why, when the protesting Muslims carry placards that read “damn your freedoms,” they are missing the point. Not everyone here likes the consequences of our freedoms, either. It isn’t that we chose liberalism because we thought it would be nice to have high divorce rates, huge drug problems, a debased popular culture and a general lack of respect and civility. That’s just what we’ve ended up with, because the cost of clamping down on these things is too high.

Bernard Lewis and other commentators on Islam like to note that Islam has never had a proper reformation or enlightenment. Yet unlike the West, which more or less had to arrive at liberalism by groping through the solution space, Islam has our experience as a guide. It would be extremely unfortunate if the Islamic world had to go through what Europe went through a few hundred years ago. It would be nice if we could just point to our experience and say, look, we tried all the alternatives and they don’t work. This is where you are going to end up, so why not just get started.

But that obviously won’t work, because this would be to posit a “stages of civilization” view, which is exactly the sort of moral superiority and arrogance that the muslims are protesting.

Where that leaves the world, is very hard to say.

Christianity and

Christianity and Flagelation

The Flagellation refers in a Christian context to the Flagellation of Christ, an episode in Jesus' physical degradation leading to the Crucifixion. (See also: The Passion, Jesus and the Money Changers). The practice of mortification of the flesh for religious purposes was utilized in the Christian Flagellant movements of the 13th century, and is still very common, to this day, in the Philippines and Latin America. Some strict monastic orders such as the Carmelites still practice mild self-flagellation using an instrument called a "discipline", a cattail whip made of light chains with small spikes or hooks on the end, which is flung over the shoulders repeatedly during private prayer. Practitioners are cautioned against over- or underuse of the device. However most Christians are opposed to such behavior.

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagellation

David, LostID, Anonymous..

David, I'd LOVE to read your blog on Ashura and the Flagellantis...quite right, the existence of medieval Christian roots in Iranian Shiism's roots is so obvious it REEKS, and yet I"ve never come across it discussed except in my own intuitions and your recent post...and it REALLY is important...I am familiar with many of Shariatis' ideas....I eagerly await your blog...

LostID, I don't think the ideals of the Secular Enlightenment, I assume you mean the emphasis on the individual, are harmful. I believe as IDEALS they are consistent with the highest spiritual ideals, they are about NOT INFLICTING HARM on the individual. The problem is they are so hypocritical, the scientific revolution which ensued from the Secular Enlightenment has CLEARLY perpetrated more violence on a mass scale than any previous belief system...the great work which tackles the problem is Adorno and Horkheimer's "Dialectic of Enlgihtenment", Dialektik der Erklarung, written by refugees from the Nazis at the New School in New York in 1944. They explain how the Secular Enlightenment's emphasis on the individual led to a rejection of anything that can't be quantified, and an over-valuing of science, statistics, etc. for its own sake, with disregard for human life.  But that was NOT the intention of the great minds who ushered in that Enlgihtenment....Voltaire, Roussea, the framers of the US Constitution....the emphasis on the individual was intended to protect the sanctity of life.  In its IDEAL form it is perfectly consistent with the spirit of the Greater Jihad and Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds.  Only unfortunately, its promise lies waiting...in the ashes...of the Holocaust, Hiroshima, Iraq, Chernobyl...but you know, WITHOUT it, you and I couldn't be dialoguing here either you see...without that protection of individual rights...and I'm SURE Hafez and Rumi would agree that this is a GOOD thing...as Shamlou says, "These are strange times, my Dear..."  dar in bonbast....

Anonymous, yes, in a nutshell that's the problem, the dichotomy of Mahmood's political contribution...and people don't want to face it, they want to DENY how much it means to millions of Iranians that the Revolution, for all its numerous (and might I add disgusting) faults, was the first successful stand against global Imperialism...well, one can deny it all one likes, as one can deny that we breathe air and drink water...or that 2 plus 2 equals 4....it doesn't change the fact. And the sooner it's acknowledged, the better.

Thanks for a great discussion.  This is what the new technology is FOR.

Rosie

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad represents a Islomic dogma

But he is our last line of defense against another kind of dogma. We need peace and economic prosperity and most of all we need USA out of the ME.

//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5146778547...

Re: Rosie....My reply to your previous posting was not posted

I did go back and read your postings and agreed with you. Amazingly, it was inline with your newer posting.
As Imam Hossein says: Truly, Life is a BLIEF and STIVING for that BELIEF.

You see, as you say, Ashura concept is a Preliminary Concept in human society as soon as a family was formed on earth.

As for Secular enlightenment and violence in society, It's interesting you say that. There is no corelation at all. As a matter of fact the violence in Islamic societies go down tremendously during months of Ramadan and Moharram (Ashura month). Ashura (just like anything else) can be used as a violence tool in the hands of violent people who have nothing to do with the spirit of religion, but it's unfair to say that violent people are born out of this type of ritual. It's interesting that the materialist view says this type of ritual, on the contrary, sothe and cools people down! These are all views rather than a scientific proven fact.

I agree that this culture of Ashura is in direct contradiction to the philosophy of SELFISHNESS (secular enlightenment!). It talks about sacrificing self interest in the interest of JUSTICE! Isn't it NOBLE?

Rosie:

I first read aboout the reference to Christianity as the source of Ashura ceremony in its present form in a book by the ideolog of the Islamic revolution in Iran, Ali Shariati .

But I will post more about this VERY OBVIOUS parallel in a new blog hopefully this weekend :-)

Lets all cry....

Why is he crying or as some of you say pretending?
Who cares, what has the result been?
All this cry has caused a nation to be confused, depressed, dreamless, you name it.
Lets all start crying too, nothing will change, not even if you suger coat it.

Iranian poet Lahoutie put it best:

خلق
ايران ز اسارت چه شکايت دارد؟

حاصل
جهل بجز ذلت و ادبار که نيست

‬

Koodkesh-e Sadistian

Belakhareh to khafeh khoon migiri ya na, Nekbat-e kesafat !
10

Atash, Atash, Atash

A day shall come that they will standing before the Iranian nation, they will hear the screams of thousands of mothers, fathers, Atash, Atash, Atash - alas, I will be there for the coup de gras!

Back to the Original Topic of This Post......

These pictures are laughable!!

A staged photo op, with this degenerate monkey crying for the camera right on cue as a demonstration of his piety for all to see.

How much does anyone want to wager that when he went home that night he cracked open a bottle of Johnnie Walker and poured himself a double (with a splash of soda and a twist)?

This is fascinating David,

can you recommend me an English-language source (or German or any Romance language; Persian only as a last resort).

Actually the historical-political roots don't necessarily negate the archetypal, mythic underlying meanings but we'll never agree on that. So let's stick to facts for now. Can you recommend a source?
Thanks. You know, four years ago when I first got into all this I got Dabashi's/Chelkowski's STAGING A REVOLUTION and when I saw the picture of the Martyr's Fountain at Mashad, I KNEW, I just KNEW, I thought "Iran is a Catholic country."  And now here we are finally unravelling the mystery (no pun intended with mystery religion).  That's what you get when you register.  You get to talk TURKEY (as in...uh...truth AND Ottoman...only the FIRST pun was intended...)

I used to tell him...the one in the Leila poem...I don't play with language, language plays with me...but you would not believe that either David...or maybe you would ;D  Source please?

Ashura Import

Ashura ceremony was learned from Catholic self punishments  during dark ages and to this date some of the symbols that are carried during ashura resemble what is carried by Catholics during their religious ceremonies.

Initiation of Ashura and Shiasm in Iran were tools used to force Ottoman empire to divide its forces to battle both the Christians and the new shias (in Iran) simultaneously. If it wasn't for formation of Shia in Iran , Islam would have been spread in to Europe.  

There is nothing original or glorious about Ashura ceremony and it was simply an injection of self inflicted pain and sin in to Islam from catholism.

Ashura has been a political tool and still is, no more no less..

LostID, Ashura is a HIGHLY complex spiritual and theological

synthesis of Mazdaist ideas of the battle between Good and  Evil, Christian ideas of sacrifice and martyrdom and blood as purification, and the Sunni concept of a nation of Islam (itself a synthesis of Judaic nationalsim with Christian missionarism).  Ashura is from what I can glean one of several things which makes Shiism an innovative religion with real contributions to the question of what is the "sacred", in distinction to Sunnism, which I feel contributed nothing spiritual or theological to the Abrahamic religiions; its contribution was politcal and legal.

At the same time the blood-letting CLEARLY comes into direct conflict with the values of the secular Enlightenment, themselves hypocritical as these rational-based societies institutionalize violence on an unprecedented technological scale.

So for the purposes of the website discourse, Ashura is....highly problematic....and all I can do is try to make sure both sides get a fair hearing. And that WASN'T happening at the beginning, and that's why I decided to stay on this thread.

Peace.

Rosie