Sic Semper Tyrannis

AO's vulgarity needs to be addressed!

          Everyday he posts a provocative nonsense without any substance and insults one thing or another. The other day he described Islam, Judaism and Christianity as S**t! My views on religion is expressed in my blogs but this is not a civilized way to address the issues.

          Yesterday he mocked Hafez and saadi:

     //iranian.com/main/blog/disenchanted/hafez-poetry-behind-attacking-uk-embassy

      My blog standing up to his nonsense was removed from front page by admin!!

Legions of prancing Iranians here in the West...

... acting all superior, when they can't even achieve the things they've achieved in their own country and amongst their own people.

What are they doing here in the West?

If Iranians were any good, they'd make their country to be like the West is, instead of fleeing from it and coming here and showing off about how supposedly superior their culture is.

If we could have a film of every Iranian here who struts his/her sh-t with degrees, prizes, etc., and then compare that to the way they looked while standing in line desparate for their visa or greencard, you'd see almost two very different people (even though they are the same person). 

On that note

That's a good point, about the notion of "going too far"; I can be like that, too. 

I have no problem recognizing good things in Iranian culture, or actual achievements by Iranians.

But when they start acting superior and pretending that they are a phenomenon, then its time to shoot them down.

Its the Iranians who pretend that Iranians are great, who all too often go overboard, pretending to be great when they aren't. 

They fly too high; all AO is doing is shooting them down.

If they learn be quiet and stop giving BS advice and pretending they know what's going on and what others should be doing, there would be no need for people to put them in their places. 

Anahid

A great response. Have you noticed that none of my documented posts get a response. Because the point is not to make Iranians pay more attention to research. It is to vent anger or beat people on the head.

Therefore disagreement is not welcome. An objective discussion examines facts and draws conclusions. Revising them as new facts are brought to attention. But an ideological statement is one with a predetermined result. Anything that goes against it is ignored.

What we got is an ideological statement here so you are not going to change it. You may change the minds of other readers but not the ones who already decided. I applaud you for the work and it is worth it but only to people who are open to it.

Fair enough Anahid. That's your opinion & you're entitled to it

No one has to agree with me.  I'm stating my opinion.  I thought the DaVinci example was a good one...

I do have to say, though, that I am flattered to be mentioned in your poem on Mr. Noury's blog. 

JJ owes me a lot of dough too

for my poetry. Once because people read it and then they can critique it. No AO, blog will not be just about you and I may not even write it. Your repeated writing about lack of scientific discovery by Iranians reminds me of when I say something funny. My daughter says that initially I am funny but then I don't know when to stop the joke.

You are like that too with some of your blogs and comments. You and JahanK and couple others. Originally, you had a point that Iranians should pay more attention to sientific discovery. Probably, some readers agreed with you guys. Now, you don't know when to stop. Even when an Iranian had scientific discovery, you say that he did not, why the discover was not in his robaii, etc, etc.?

 If anybody were to get the point that Iranians should pay more attention to scientific discovery, they would get the point by now. Those who did not get it by now, may never get it, especially when every day your arguments become weaker and weaker.

Oh, oh...Anahid jaan

should I expect another blog written about me? :-)))

I think that JJ should start paying me.  I have, by far, the highest number of blogs written about me on this site.  I generate a lot of traffic for the site.  JJ owes me some dough!

PS- isn't there another one of these blogs about me floating around as we sepak, calling me ignorant for criticizing poetry:

//iranian.com/main/blog/disenchanted/hafez-poetry-behind-attacking-uk-embassy

Amirkabir- I think the ruins were visible at that time as well

the fact that they didn't ask questions and were not curious about it is troubling to me.

But again, this is just my opinion.  Everyone can disagree with me (and I believe that you all have expressed your disagreement).  That's perfectly fine. 

How is that an invalid argument Anahid?

The guy lived next door to the most siginificant evidence of his people's history.  Wouldn't he at least want to know what those ruins were if he had an ounce of curiosity?

And what about the comparison to DaVinci?  Is that argument below your level also? 

AO a direct question about Muqanna

Did he leave evidence of scientific knowledge or not.

TS Jan

I agree with a lot of what you say. I remember someone back in Iran telling me Ibn Sina was able to tie a string to many patients. And by just feeling each string diagnose them. It sounded BS then and sounds the same now!

But to be fair skills these days did not require the same degree of knowledge as now. For example math and physics were not that advanced. Algebra and high school trigonometry were about it. For physics again high school optics and acoustics were it.

Astronomy was being able to chart a few constellations. Maybe predict when the moon was going to show. A good high school graduate would be as knowledgeable as the best of them. Therefore I would not go too harsh on them; that was it.

The bottom line is that we shouldn't be fishing for

micro-evidence of scientific curiosity in a Roabii to prove a point.  If these guys had an interest in scientific knowledge, they would have written about it, just like they wrote their "divans." Agian, DaVinci is a good example of an artist with a passion for knowledge and science.  he left work evidencing both.  Saadi, Hafez and other poets could have easily done the same. 

AO again

You said;

Why wasn't he curious about the ruins all around him that were much closer to him? 

If there was nothing visible, i.e. no sign of any historic buildings, what did he have to dig up ??

By the way he was not a historian. Then why should he be interested in history? 

Fairness and Equality in Justice

Dear AO, if I get time

i will write a blog how your arguments and couple other people on this site are worse than the science at high school level. From that Arash irandoost who polled people in a biasd way so his survey response had the problem of response bias to .... Actually your argument that a person was not curious because he did not go to Persepolis, this is even below high school. I am sorry to be frank but this level of discussion is below me.

AO

The difference is that you are here to respond and refute me. These guys are dead so they have no way to respond. 

Honestly, TS-9 jaan - I think it's because we have a cultural

vaccume.  We really have nothing else of significance to show for. Poets are our default heroes.  Part of it could also be the Shia culture with its heavy emphasis on person worship.  

Was Al-Muqanna

interested in the physical world? He by all accounts had a strong understanding of science. In particular optics. Having created the "moon of nakhjab" the nature of which is not known. 

In addition he used his knowledge to impress his followers into joining him. With goal of resisting Arab occupation. Not much  remains on him except accounts of his scientific miracles. Please read the "History of Bukhara" translated by Professor Richard Frye.

How do we know what people thought?

we look at their work. :-))

VPK- you judge me everyday on this site based on what I write.  Don't you?  By the same token, I judge Hafez and Saadi by what they wrote, or more importantly, by what they didn't write.   

I agree with this point AO

I have nothing against potery.  But everything should have its proper place in a culture.  I think there is too much hero worship and emphasis on "poets" in our culture too.  Seems we need to put people on a pedestal: whether it's a "wise" man with 1000 skills (none to a high level) who wrote rhyme, Monarchy or Religious leaders. Really am sick of it - it is so backward.

Anahid Jan

Once again I agree with you. It puzzles me how anyone AO or other claims to know what Khayyam thought. How do we know if he was or was not interested in the physical world. It is beyond me how anyone would know it.

Reminds me of people who claim Ferdowsi was a "Staunch Shia". These people lived around 1000 years ago give or take a century. There is no way to know what they thought. How many of us know what our kids are thinking. 

The more people think they know the more they expose they lack of knowledge. I am afraid I may quote another poem so I won't. The one about "nadand va nadanad ke nadand". Goes for many on IC on all sides.

Dear Anahid

1) Khayyam wasn't forced to fit everything in a Robaii, was he?  He could have written a book on science if he was curious about the subject.  take DaVinci for example.  He was an rtist and a scientist.  He had works of art and wotre about scientific principles, medicine and inventions.  Why couldn't Iranian poets do the same if they were curious about science?  Much to the contrary, doesn't the fact that they tried to fit their curiosity (if they had one) withing a poem show a certain degree of intellectual laziness?

2)  We're not talking about 300 miles.  Takht-Jamshid was 44 miles away from Hafez and Saadi.  Didn't Hafez go to Hajj?  Why wasn't he curious about the ruins all around him that were much closer to him?  Exploration and travel are other elements of scientific discovery.  Example: Darwin.   

Fine AO

Every one is entitled to their opinions.

Dear AO

In the poetry that I noted from Kayyam, his critical thinking and his low opinion of a Donya beyond ours is evident. How much science can you put in one Robaii? But Kayyam's work was not limited to his poetry.

I don't agree with what you wrote which was:"... none of these guys were curious about their physical world, not even the immediate world around them.." just because someone did not travel 300 miles does not mean that they were not curious people. As a matter of fact, let's take sicence of Physics.  "Physics is the study of the physical world, from motion and energy to light and electricity".

For someone to make scientific discovery in physics, travelling to far distances was not required hundreds of years ago. Do you think Newton had to travel far to observe that objects fall and all his other laws of physics?

Anahid - Read your blog

The thing with criticism is that you will have to factor in the critic's own biases (like VPK says) when you read his/her reviews.  Example: everyone knows that I am atheist.  So, if I criticize a religion (as I often do) people will have to take that with a grain of salt, knowing what my preconceived notions about religion may prevent me from providing a fair assessment (the operative word being "may").  same thing about poetry.  While I do not have anything against poetry and poets, I do not believe that they should be the focal points of our culture.

Nobody is fair

Before I go on I agree with Anahid. Now the rest:

We must fact reality which is nobody is fair. People all got their baggage. The important thing is to recognize it and function knowing  this. I am biased; as is everybody. Anyone who claims not to be is just not aware of it. 

Once you add that to the mix it all makes sense. I love Saadi and Hafiz but Kasravi whom I admire had a low opinion of Hafiz. Well people got a right to their opinion.

Anahid Jaan - where is the scientific aspect of it?`

atheism, perhaps.  But where is the science?  

Curiosity is the main force behind scientific discovery and exploration.  You have to admit it: none of these guys were curious about their physical world, not even the immediate world around them...not even fifty miles beyond their homes!

AO, read this blog of mine

 which is about some critics. I did not write it in response to you but you may benefit from it. Here is the link to it:

//iranian.com/main/blog/anahid-hojjati/heard-about-critic-no-imagination-and-no-perspective

AO jan, vaght kaam ast

but at the time many hundreds of years ago that there were not many Atheists, Khayyam stated ideas such as:

دوزخ شرری ز رنج بیهوده ماست

فردوس دمی ز وقت آسوده ماست  

dear AO, you need to work on your creativity. You are losing your creativity because you are spending so much time writing to critique others. creativity is useful in scientific discovery also.

I'm sorry Anahid

But I cannot detect any scientific observations / discussions, etc. in the poems that you have cited.  Can you please elaborate as to how they relate to science and what scientific preinciples they are discussing?

Again, I have nothing against potery.  But everything should have its proper place in a culture.  We just have too much emphasis on poets.  Perhaps it's the lack of other accomplishments that has placed us in this position.   

Khayyam was the best classical poet in his thinking

Not only he was a great poet but he was excellent in science too. He is the one he wrote:

گردون نگری ز قد قرسوده ماست

جیحون اثری ز اشک پالوده ماست

دوزخ شرری ز رنج بیهوده ماست

فردوس دمی ز وقت آسوده ماست  

************** 

در فصل بهار اگر بتی حور سرشت

یک ساغر می دهد مرا بر لب کشت

هر چند به نزد عامه این باشد زشت

سگ به ز من است اگر برم نام بهشت  

************* 

گویند کسان بهشت با حور خوش است

من می گویم که آب انگور خوش است

این نقد بگیر و دست از آن نسیه بدار

کاواز دهل شنیدن از دور خوش است  

************* 

from Wikipedia about Khayyam:

"

Omar Khayyám (1048-1131; Persian: ‏عمر خیام) was a Persian polymath: philosopher, mathematician, astronomer and poet. He also wrote treatises on mechanics, geography, mineralogy, music, climatology and theology.[3]

....

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khayy%C3%A1m

من هیچ ندانم که مرا آنکه سرشت

از اهل بهشت کرد یا دوزخ زشت

جامی و بتی و بربطی بر لب کشت

این هر سه مرا نقد و ترا نسیه بهشت