Anvar

......

Hi! Anvar,

    Thank you for your beautiful long post!. Could you please stop using the word "arrogant" on yourself?...there is absolutely no way that you are arrogant...never!! I think you have given me a generic answer........I am concerned with what happens if the 7 people get convicted.......as you know.....I am sick and tired of hearing jail time and hangings...I really don't want  to see Mona tragedy repeat itself..........I hope the 7 people will be out very soon! Can we do something to prevent these 7 people from being convicted? Is this too late?

   As you know IRI convited Roxanna Saberi initially, but there was a lot of international outcries from US to Japan.......eventaully, she was able to leave Evin.....

    The 7 people were in jail for 2 years...that is long enough.....I hope their ordeal will end very soon!

    Thank you for your beautiful questions/answers.

P.S. LOL! I did have an earful of "i" ending words in Hawaii, like: Kauai, Molokai, Huli Huli chicken (Hawaiian barbecu), Kapiolani.....so when I heard "Bahai".....I automatically assumed that it was a Hawaiian religion! :O) My misconception got corrected only 2,3 years ago.

Yolanda – envisioning a better world

In addition to all the points Rosie has so nicely pointed out, here’s another:  Baha’is believe that mankind, as a whole, has reached a certain level of maturity that we no longer need any clergies.  As you can imagine, the backlash against such belief would be extremely harsh in a country like Iran.

You wrote: “What is the best way to stop the brutality? If anything we can help with, please let us know…”

I’m not presumptuous enough to believe I have all the answers, nor arrogant enough to tell others what to do.  I can happily share what I’d do though:

I visualize a world in which all the peoples live in peace, prosperity, harmony, and love with each other.  Then, with that goal in mind, I examine all the possibilities that help me get closer to eventually achieving it.  Therefore, I choose my philosophy, behavior, and religion to be consistent with that vision.

As such, I can easily answer these questions for myself:
- Do we need more atomic weapons or less?
- Do we need more hangings of innocent people or less?
- Do we need more violence, superstition, oppression, and hatred or less?
- Do we need equality of women and men?
- Do we need freedom of expression, education, and open-mindedness?
- Do we need greed, disunity, and brutality?
- Do the current economic systems work well for all?
- Do we need leaders or servers?
- Do we need exclusionary competition or inclusive cooperation?
- And so on…

Whether I answer yes or no to the above questions depends on how conducive my answer would be to the world I envision.

I’d imagine the best answer, from my point of view, to your question is: Brutality diminishes when more people embrace a different vision of the world.  People who share similar values, regardless of religion or ethnicity, ought to unite and strive for the betterment of the world for all.

Anvar

P.S.:  I sense a new IC poem starting to take form.  Here’s the beginning:
Mahi Mahi – Hawaii Bahai  :- )

....

Hi! Rosie,

    Thank you for your new post! Wow! You have a lot of knowledge....I need to read more......I think people can believe whatever they want....some of the Hawaiians worship volcano Goddess, Pele...........I respect people's beliefs. They should not be persecuted for their beliefs!

Yolanda, just saw your last post.

It asks the most important question of all.

But right now I'm going to stick to what I was planning, which is to mention a few things that should clarify my long post to you in reply to your question about n why the Bahai are persecuted the most of all the minority groups in Iran. My main thesis being that the Bahai faith is rooted in Islam, in which Muhammad is the final prophet, but the Bahai faith believes in prophets since Muhammad and even more to come.

I was thinking you might now or at some point wonder why, if this is the case, the Iranian Shia can still be considered Muslim when they appear to worship Ali more than Muhammad, to such extent that even the preferred place of pilgimage (haj) in practice is Karbala and not Mecca but the Bahai not. 

The answer is that for the Shias Aliis transmitter of divine light and knowledge, chosen of God, he is the Perfect Man, the all-compassionate, and the Twelfth Imam's ancestor. You name it, he's it. He is just about everything.

Everything except a prophet.

He is not the source of any new Revelation from God.

And 'there is no God but God, and Muhammad is his (final) prophet'.

.....

Hi! Anvar,

      What is the best way to stop the brutaly? If anything we can help with, please let us know............President Reagon pleaded for clemency for Mona, but IRI carried out the executions anyway.....very sad......but apparently someone told Reagon that IRI was planning to carry out the executions.....I still think it is good to spread the word.

      After Roxanna Saberi got out of Evin, she pleaded for her Bahai cellmates' release multiple times. I am just curious if Saber's cellmates are some of the 7 Bahais on trial a while ago.

P.S. When I was in Honolulu, I went to market to buy mahi mahi 3,4 times.....the mahi mahi's eyeballs were bigger than golf balls.....OMG! Mahi Mahi must be humongous!

The fuss & thanks

Here’s what the fuss is about *Darveesh*.  It is of secondary importance whether or not all the prophets are the descendants of Abraham.  The most important consideration is that human beings are the descendants of Adam & Eve - so to speak.  Instead of focusing on the oneness of humanity to get united, people tend to focus on insignificant differences that potentially disunite them.

Thanks to everybody for reading this blog and also enhancing it by your comments and contributions.

Anvar

Heartbreaking

Someone posted it long time ago. Have been playing it ever since.

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc7_pTD_hlk

jesus was a jew

was he not?

moses was an idolatry was he not?

moses, jesus and mohammad were descendant of abraham were they not?

bahaies , as they claim, are decedents of muslims, are they not?

so what is all the fuss about?

if you seek true monotheistic religion, seek ahora mazda

Aaah, I see...

I suspect that Mr. Aryamesh is being a little ironic.

----

Wow, I really thought it said 'Ali' in there. Which was something important I'd forgotten to discuss in my post to Yolanda. Well, so much the better. Now there's no rush.

Translation

We are very enlightened, especially since till now, we thought that Jesus Christ was a Jew (written in Persian as "johood" as opposed to Yahudi or Kalimi." Johood", being  a disrespectful term not usually used by the more enlightened and unprejudiced.)  ...and Moses previously idol worshipper; we were not aware they were both Muslim...

بسيار روشن شديم. علی الخصوص در مورد اين تيکه 

ما تا حالا فکر ميکرديم عيسی مسيح اول جهود بود و موسی بت پرست. خبر نداشتيم جفتشون از اول مسلمون بودن.

Translation

We are very enlightened, especially since till now, we thought that Jesus Christ was a Jew (written in Persian as "johood" as opposed to Yahudi or Kalimi." Johood", being  a disrespectful term not usually used by the more enlightened and unprejudiced.)  ...and Moses previously idol worshipper; we were not aware they were both Muslim...

بسيار روشن شديم. علی الخصوص در مورد اين تيکه 

ما تا حالا فکر ميکرديم عيسی مسيح اول جهود بود و موسی بت پرست. خبر نداشتيم جفتشون از اول مسلمون بودن.

I said to Kourosh below that I

need a translation of his post. Could someone give it to me please? It's short.

Dear Kourosh

Re: Rosie's comments:

"So Moses (Mussa) and Jesus (Issa) are also Muslim prophets, though not as great as Muhammad.."

I think what Rosie  is implying is that all religions have ONE common foundation;that they have been progressively revealed by God to man according to the to the needs of the time and the capacity of mankind to understand them; that essentially Moses, Jesus ad Muhammad were just the Messenger and the Human means by which God has in the past and will always reveal himself to mankind, as Bahais believe He has for this age in The Bab and Baha'u'llah  with guidance from God that speaks to the challenges and the needs of humanity in this day and age.

Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, and for that matter all the founders of major world religions said nothing from themselves,but claimed to be the mouthpiece of God; saying Muhammd is greate than Jesus or Moses is like saying the SUN on Monday is greater than The SUN on FRIDAY.

The sooner we realize the Unity, the significance of the common Source of all spiritual traditions of mankind, and their progressive nature the sooner we can all agree on their essential unity and stop fighting and arguing about religion.

faryar 

We should all learn from their courage.

"the man who offers his neck to the enemy for execution,but refuses to bend to his will,shows courage of a far higher type " ~~Gandhi~~

Thanks for the post,

Tahirih

....

Thank you, Rosie, for the music video.......the flowers are pretty, but the message is very sad!

Korush Aryanamesh

I used to read better Persian, it's very rusty now, and the only dictionary I still have is an electronic one and if I try to use the keyboard, it'll take all day. So could you please give me at translation of your text.

I know you're talking about Ali and Shiism. I was going to post to Yolanda later and tell her that everything I wrrote was (and should obviously be seen as) an extreme simplification. And I also implicitly asked for corrections in my first sentence to her.

Among the things I intended (intend?) to write to her about are Shiism (first), then Sufism and the Zoroastrian influence, all of which render Iran a very unique case in the Islamic world. Also the different interpretations of jihad; the Five Pillars, the difference between personal belief and doctrine, different Sunni schools, and more. In very broad strokes and very synthetically so the post wouldn't be twelve miles long.

However, I have to admit that leaving out Shiism, Karbala, and Ali was a grotesque omission. Grotesque. But iI don't think it renders the realcore of my argument wrong as it relates to Bahaism, which is that if the Bahai are fully recognized by the Islamic Republic, as a religious minority entitled to full rights as citizens,, this negates conceptually the possibility of an Islamic / Republic. And that is why of all the miserably treated groups in IRI (which at this point includes most of the population, since women are already more than half), the Bahai are treated worst of all.

So lay it on me, will ya please, in English, and first just a literal translaton of your post. Then whatever else you want to say.

Thanks.

Rosie

.

Rosie

بسيار روشن شديم. علی الخصوص در مورد اين تيکه

So Moses (Mussa) and Jesus (Issa) are also Muslim prophets, though not as great as Muhammad

ما تا حالا فکر ميکرديم عيسی مسيح اول جهود بود و موسی بت پرست. خبر نداشتيم جفتشون از اول مسلمون بودن.

Dear Rosie,

Dear Rosie,

Thank you for your perceptive comments. I admire your objectivity, as an American who puts most of us Iranians to shame with your open mind, thirst for new knowledge and unfettered analysis. 

best

faryar 

......

Hi! Rosie,

    Thank you for your long post......I need to read a few more times.....it is heavy stuff.... but cultural diversity, freedom of choice of religion, concept of equal rights for women are great!

As far as I am concerned, all the executions should stop!

please take care! 

thank you!!! 

P.S. I will watch the video at home....I can't access to you-tube at work!

thanks, 

ps Yolanda,

Here is something you will like.

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhQKvqDEPUs

Okay, Yolanda, (edited)

I'm sure I'll wind up standing corrected but I'll give it a go.

I also read a lot about the discriminations/abuses/persecutions Bahais face in Iran: desecration of the Bahai graveyard. .....deprivation of college education.....jailing....executions.....

I really don't understand why? 

One of the most basic premises of Islam is that Mohammad was the last prophet to whom the final Revalation, the Quran, was revealed. Everything else is just killing time til Judgement Day. As you know, Islam considers the Old and New Testaments of the other two Abrahamic religions sacred texts because Judaism and Christianity were foundational in creating Islam. So Moses (Mussa) and Jesus (Issa) are also Muslim prophets, though not as great as Muhammad. That's why Jews and Christians are allowed seats in the Majlis, for example, and (theoretically) they're not persecuted in the ISLAMIC Republic. They are 'people of the book'.

The Bahai are also 'people of the book', Bahaism springs from and embraces the previous Abrahamic religions. But the problem is that Bahaism came after Islam. So if they are recognized as such,  it undermines perhaps the most important tenet of Islam. that the Quran is the final, absolute Revalation through Mohammad, the final prophet.

To make matters worse, Bahaism explcitly states that there will be not only the one prophet of their faith, Bahaullah, but new ones to come with new revelatons (not opposing,but expanding on the existing one), as time moves on. Bahaism exists dynamically in history. Islam is essentially static.

Where Islam is not static,however, is in the concept that it must be spread all over the world. Whereas Bahaism embraces cultural diversity (including religious) within the family of man as a fundamental tenet. So the outlook of both religions is world-embracing (as opposed to, say, Judaism) but they are antithetical. Bahaism inherently negates the concept of Infidel and jihad. Which is probably why they are accused of conversion through coersion and plotting to take over the world. Conversion out of Islam is apostasy, punishable by death. The Bahai don't even make their own children become Bahai

It is fortunate fpr the accusers that through an accident of history--the Bahai being sent into exile in Haifa when it was still part of the Ottoman Empire, and their central headquarters still being based there--that they can be accused of being partners with the Zionists in the plot, along with their friends the British, the historical rapists of Iran, in this takeover.

So you have a dynamic Abrahamic religion whose prophet's revelation succeeds Mohammad's, and which expects new prophets and newer Revelaton with time, advocates for cultural diversity and for freedom of choice of religion even for their own children. And then there is their concept of equal rights for women and their emphasis on educating their children. If you allow them into universities they are going to be among the best of the best. Someone may want to convert. (Someone else will want to hire them when they graduate...)

It all comes together to make being a Bahai a recipe for disaster in IRI. If Bahaism is recognized,and Bahais full citizens, then Islam is open-ended, and so the concept of an Islamic Republic essentially can no longer exist.

Maybe a simple way of putting it, in very broad stroaks, is this: Judaism and Chrisitianity are foundational in Islam but Islam is foundational in Bahaism.

Do you see the problem?

But Anvar,

that was my whole point. I thought IT already had shown up.

But let's just leave it. It's a desecration to this thread.

Dear Faryar & Rosie

Faryar, thanks for the update on the movie.  I can’t wait for it to come out either.  Keep me and the rest of folks here up to date.  Looking forward to your presentation of Aghdaslou and the rest of the cast’s script reading.

Rosie, (speaking of movies above) did you ever see the movie Beetlejuice?  If the name was repeated three times in a row then IT would show up.  Please make sure you don’t keep repeating that name!

As for misspelling – I wasn’t necessarily referring to apostrophes.  Sometimes it makes perfect sense to spell the words the way you suggested.   This is closer to what I was talking about: Rosie >> Rozee.  But in case of Mr. *Darveesh*, it’s just his schtick.  He can correctly spell words as well as anyone here.  Just trying to throw people off his old ID.

Anvar

roohe hamashoon shad.  two

roohe hamashoon shad.  two of many heartbreaking stories.  thanks for the post.

Dear Anvar

Darius and I spoke about this...

as rumours about the film were premature and inaccurate..

The Film making process is complex and fraughtt with delays, especially a film like this.. 

Recently Shohreh Aghdaslou and Houshang Touzie and a cast of actors did a cold reading of the script at a Human Rights event in NYC; I hope to present it at some point.

regards

faryar 

Misspellings

Darveesh, cheep is for birds.  

But going beyond that, I thought Mona was like Neda, but you know what? You're right. Mona was no Neda. Her name was Mona, not Neda. Thank you for opening my mind.

___________________

Anvar, I spell Bahai and Bahaullah without the apostrophe on purpose, because I think it makes the names look less strange and exotic to Westerners. More normal. Not like they're shrouded in some kind of...mystery. And actually I'd like it to catch on.  In case you were wondering.

Thanks for the blog. Mona is Neda.

Dear Darveesh

Dear Darveesh'

With respect, to your comment: "no way mona is a neda."

Please read about Mona, who she was, how she was in real life, what she was arrested for, how she stood up to the Mullahs and her prison interrogators...

i am sure if Mona's last moments before hanging had been captured and sent to youtube, back in 1983,  you might have chosen your words more carefully.

The tragedy here is not just the murder of two young women at the prime of their life, but the degree of apathy by fellow iranians who to this day can make comments like "no way mona is a neda" , all because they either do not know the facts, they dont care or they truly believe or whatever reason that, "no way mona is a neda".

Luckily we have first hand accounts from both her cell mates as well as others present about her courage,strength and faith in the face of death.

I am sure you have by now seen the music video that was made in Canada  in her memory back in the 1980s by Canadians and seen around the world by multitudes of diverse people of different nationality and races.

Thankfully the climate of apathy seems to be ending, as the rest of the Iranian population has begun to feel the pain of persecution , the Bahais have had to endure for the last 31 years under the  tyrrany of Islamic Republic .

Please do write back when you have gained some more knowledge about this extraordinary young woman and tell everyone if you stiil feel the same way..and whether you feel writing about Mona is "

"az abe gel alood mahi gereftan"

as you said:

" ruhe har jofteshun shad"

faryarm 

The movie

*faryarm* - I came across this link today that apparently IC’s own *Darius Kavidar* has put together.  I haven’t read it yet but it looks very interesting.  It is a couple of years old though, so I’d imagine some of the timelines (if there’s any) may no longer be accurate.

Chances are you’ve already seen it, but in case you haven’t:
//payvand.com/news/08/jul/1180.html

Anvar

Mona Tahini, welcome back!

Just a tad late though. Because a few of us were having a really hard time with Nurvanah the last few days. But as fate would have it, she got blocked just a few hours before you showed up. After almost nine full months being away. It's almost like..there was a gestation period...and here you are agan, born anew!

Pity it was just a few hours late. We really could've used your help fighting the good fight with your penetrating insights and exemplary representation of the Bahai faith. Not to mention your fine wit.

Welcome back, Mona Tahini, you saucy thing, you!