As you have noticed, posing nude in public and now even engaging in porn activity have been praised as earth shattering events toward liberation of Iranian women by some!
Lets assume there is no such concept as "dignity" for a second and wonder what is the next step in this movement? Where does it end? How low it can go? If Namjoo (a mere hypothetical case) tomorrow releases a music video showing him singing naked, that would be a watershed moment in history of music in Iran I suppose! This is not liberation. This is degradation.
Human procreational anatomical tools and accessories are for natural evolution not socio-political revolution! :-)
There is a domain between one end, restrictive, demeaning and suppressive treatment of women and the other end, exploitative treatment of them as sexual objects. That is the domain of freedom and dignity for women. The fear is that what some have in mind as an alternative to a reactionary & backward culture is nothing but western garbage disguised as freedom and liberation!
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some more explanation for Disenchanted
by Siavash300 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 04:01 PM PST"....to avoid addressing a whole race in nonflattering ways" Disenchanted
Who said about the race? Again this is not my claim and it has been falsely labled on me. In my whole discussion, i never used any vulgar language and also I never accused anyone to anything.
Anyway, When Saddam Hossaine said God shouldn't create 3 creators. Persians and Flies and Jews.
I never consider Saddam's claim as being "racist". I don't think that idiot even knew what racism meant. Putting flies next to Persians by Saddam implied the "hate" and has nothing to do with race. In fact Arab's race is more close to Persian race than any other nationalities.
Racial hate is rooted on history of slaverly. It is a western notion for the historical "hate" existed between 2 races of slaves and slave masters. Totally different civilalization than Middle Easters or Asians. I hate from lizard eater arabs NOT because of their race. I hate them because of what they did to my people over the course of history. Not long ago, 2 of my childhood friends were killed by those arabs when they invaded to Iran in 1980. I don't know expat nationality, but this is what Persians stand for.
"Even if Goshifteh actions were meant to be taboo breaking, I do not agree with it." Disenchated
The shot is state of art. Most likely in the line of early work of Cezanne and later on Toulouse Lautrec. It has nothing to do with IRI or any protest against any political regime. NOT at all. But at the same time this naked photo shot of Golhshifteh promotes women libertion in Iran and equality between men and women and social justice.
Long live freedom, long live democracy, long live equality between men and women
responses
by Disenchanted on Mon Jan 23, 2012 01:53 PM PSTSiavash, My blog is void of historical statements. So your presumptions on my views on such matters are baseless. However I think expat is right in his suggestion to you to avoid addressing a whole race in nonflattering ways. Iran's history is long and there are few countries we haven't had some kind of animosity with. Present realities are much more pressing.
Vildemose, Even if Goshifteh actions were meant to be taboo breaking, I do not agree with it. You can not right a wrong with another wrong! Saudi bars its female citizens from driving cars. To protest that medieval policy one cannot sit behind a car and crash it! That is what Golshifteh did in my opinion. Public nudity is wrong as much as chasing women in the street and forcing them to cover the last strand of their hair. As you are aware society norms bars men from exposing some parts of their anatomy too. Would I be considered a "revolutionary" if I break that taboo?! :-) The alternative to what is practiced in Iran is not nudity! That is what mullas want us to believe. There is a third alternative that respects freedom of women and protects the decency of the society as well!
Disenchanted: Why does it
by vildemose on Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:20 AM PSTDisenchanted: Why does it have to be either/or. This act might have multilple meanings on so many levels and the long-term affects for her and the society of Iran remains to be seen...It is progressive and bold move in the context of sexual apartheid that goes on either in Iran or Israel or Egypt.
A state of war only serves as an excuse for domestic tyranny.--Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.
Some more explanations ....
by Siavash300 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:00 AM PST"Golshifteh's nude photo could be easily interpreted as conforming to Hollywood norms as opposed to breaking the taboos in Iran!" Disenchanted
Yes, it could or it couldn't. As you said it it just interpretation. Interpretation is based on our cultural background, values and standards. But we are more concern about Iran than Hollywood or the rest of the world thinking.
Now, when we as Iranians say lizard eater arabs, which is common slang among Iranians since they were invaded and massacred by arabs 1400 years ago, we are just gives feeling of what is going on in our discussion. It is not racist, it is defending our culture and integrity of Iran since we have been invaded military 1400 and culturally 32 years ago. Racism is rooted on history of slaverly and Iran is the only country without history of slaverly.
Please read 2 centuries of silence by Dr. Abdohossaine Zarin Kob and Tarekh e Tabari. More literatures need to be read by expat and Disenchanted about "Battle of Ghadesyeh" and "Khalid ib Walid" and "Sad ibn Vagas". Enemy is enemy and I have zereo tolerance for enemies of Iran. Once you get more familiar with what happened to Persians by Arabs then we can talk more easily.
Payandeh our Aryan Land Iran.
Disenchanted
by expat on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:12 PM PSTThanks. I just find it really amusing that people do not know how to debate a point politely without getting aggressive or rude. Hold your emotions together people! My crime was to say I thought GF went topless for no reason other than financial/career-boosting/fame game. I have made no references to religion or politics. That's the cynic in me, but that's truly my belief. Clearly others disagree, which's their right but I do agree with most of the points you personally have raised.
tying up the lose ends....
by Disenchanted on Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:35 PM PST---Siavash thanks for your reply but I think we are talking past each other. I am not sure my comment was clear to you based on your reply. I was not comparing Iran's society with Hollywood. My point was that Golshifteh's nude photo could be easily interpreted as conforming to Hollywood norms as opposed to breaking the taboos in Iran! So she is not a maverick as some did portray!
---expat, Thanks for your comment as well. You come across as someone who uses his words and phrases in a measured way. That is a novelty by IC standards. I suggest you ignore the bad mouthing and contribute more often on IC.
---Thanks everyone else as well. I agree with many of suggestions like the patriarchy issue etc. However as i tried to explain in my comments, I am not sure they necessarily apply to the case at hand.
...an then there is that conspiracy theory that doesn't go away! :-)
Siavash
by expat on Sun Jan 22, 2012 07:51 PM PSTI don't recall quoting you in my post! In fact, if you read between the lines, you would've understood that I was jesting and executing an element of sarcasm. Please don't accuse me of being dishonest. If you don't understand the context, or indeed the subtext of my posts, please don't feel the need to reply. I find it fascinating that the people who accuse others of being undemocratic and anti-freedom are the MOST aggressive and prejudiced in their view. You keep referring to lizard-eating Arabs-is that not racist? You talk of equality between men and women (which's all fine and dandy) yet you feel happy to abuse an entire race of people.
Each culture has it's own taboo.
by Siavash300 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 04:18 PM PST"...What she did was just following the tried and true script of Hollywood: Undress for success!" Disenchanted
...wait a minute my friend, we are talking about country called Iran with a large population of women who were suppressed by forceful hejab and idea of lizard eater arabs for 32 years. We are talking about Iran where women's rights had been violated and they were oppressed by a bunch of the stinky rag heads by the name of mullahs. We are NOT judging Hollywood and it's movie stars here.
Now, I can imagine 100 years from now when the equality of men and women in our country (NOT hollywood) has been preserved they would have remembered those figures who made a paradigm shift in our society(again our society is Iran, NOT hollywood). Golshifeh will be remembered as a leader of that paradigm shift.
Siavash, you are a bit modest in reassessing of your blog!
by Disenchanted on Sun Jan 22, 2012 03:37 PM PSTYou called Golshifteh "leader of paradigm shift" in your blog among other lofty praises! Here is a part of your blog:
"Golshifeh was able to break the old taboo of Iranian women as being covered or segregated in our society to the most progressive state of art in a sense of European standards. The transition that was brave, dramatic, and indeed it was culturally revolutionary. It is commonly called "Paradigm shift"."
I argued below that from another point of view she may just be considered a conformist par excellance. What she did was just following the tried and true script of Hollywood: Undress for success!
I guess one's taboo is another's norm! Who is to say who is the revolutionary here!
Hummm....of the Sunday afternoon chats on Iranian.com :-)
Namjoo, you said
by Rea on Sun Jan 22, 2012 02:56 PM PSTIf the rest is as sexy as the voice, I wouldn't mind. Au contraire.
Mind you, stay subtle, let us just guess the jewels. ;o)
True accusation by Expat
by Siavash300 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 02:50 PM PST"...can't take an opposing view without accusing one of being a chador-toting, hezbollah supporting, moustache-growing, basiji-loving ahmadinejad groupie..." Expat
No one accuse anyone to be chador totoing, hezbollah supporting, basiji,etc. Not all as far as my recollection.
All my life I fight against male chauvinism as sexism and perceptions of women to be inferior to men. Golshifteh shot was NOT meant for "revolution against IRI". Not at all and no one claims such a none sense. Please DO NOT fabricate the other people's comments. Please be honest in your discussion or at least listen to what people are saying. Dishonesty just only hurt the liers, and no one else. Golshifteh naked photo shop promotes women's liberation in Iran. I go further, It promotes equality between men and women in our society. That was the discussion.
Did anyone talk about that monkey who calls himself Iran president? Not that I remember.
Did anyone claim that shot will overthrow mullahs regime in Iran and it is protest against mullahs?
Not at all. No one claim such a none sense.
Did anyone accuse anybody to be basij memebers ?
Of course NOT
The shot is state of art. Most likely in the line of early work of Cezanne and later on Toulouse Lautrec.
I have a vision that in 100 years from now when the women's right is equal to men's right, that generation will laugh at those who tried very hard to keep women in closet and wrapped in the "black shroud". I am sure one day they will laugh at it in future. In the future time probably hollywood wouldn't even exist and bollywood would have taken over the movie industry as the country of India and China will be superpowers in the future.
LONG LIVE FREEDOM, LONG LIVE DEMOCRACRY AND LONG LIVE EQUALITY BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN
Golshifteh act, breaking the norms or conforming to it?
by Disenchanted on Sun Jan 22, 2012 01:38 PM PSTYou know, if you think about that question the answer could be very interesting. Despite all the excitement and cries of "revolution" that Golshifteh broke the IRI taboos, etc one can easily interpret that what she did was in fact CONFORMING to the existing norms. Hollywood norms that is!
By exposing "it" she followed the script of Hollywood. Now the political and cultural ramifications of it notwithstanding, had she been posing with a scarf, that would have been "taboo" breaking! The Hollywood, playboy taboos that is!
Now, before the "emotionally loud" and "rationally mute" bloggers jump on me that I was advocating the symbol of women's suppression, I have to say the obvious that it aint so. It was just to put our young artist actions in a different light.
Answer: How about marrying for money and/or status?
by Truthseeker9 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 01:13 PM PSTBTW I’ve yet to hear any argument against nudity and the like that doesn’t label it evil, immoral, corrupt, or weird.
Disenchanted..
by expat on Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:59 PM PSTI'll be honest, I don't think you'll get a healthy debate going here without people name-calling and accusing you of being 'an agent of IRI'!
I agree that I don't necessarily think nudity is the way to make one's point (not that she had a point to make, the flake)-but the fundamentalists on here (mentalists being the operative word) can't take an opposing view without accusing one of being a chador-toting, hezbollah supporting, moustache-growing, basiji-loving ahmadinejad groupie...
I do think nudity is an undignified way of proving a point, but that's my just my view. We're merely animals if we feel the need to drop our tops (or trousers) everytime we disagree with something.
This blog is an objection not as much to what Golshifteh did...
by Disenchanted on Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:40 PM PSTbut what her action was billed for! "revolutionary", "one small step for...", "Paradigm shift", "Taboo breaking", "trail blazing" and the rest!
Self flattering and wishful thinking was getting out of bound!
In no way I meant to compare Golshifteh act with pornography. The reason I mentioned "porn activity" is because in another blog folks started arguing who is the real maverick, Golshifteh or Aylar Lie (An ex porno star with Iranian-Azari descent). It was clear that we are in a cultural nose dive by then!
As for the Egyptian girl who posted a naked picture on line. I certainly don't condone her act! Egypt is such a close, degenerate cultural society that you don't need to go full front naked to make a point. Taking your Borka is Maverick enough! In any case, "adam hesaabi hich vaght az in kara nemikoneh"!
As I said in another post, I am with Darwin on the observation that our bodily frames "bears the indelible stamp of our lowly origins"! We can't go forward by going back to what we have in common with our cousins apes!
Any obsession with human body is to be avoided. Some are obcsessed with covering it up to the eyes in fear of going to hell. Others can't expose enough of it, thinking that Nirvana lies in wait on their path! Both are dumb!
answer to the title of the blog:
by Tiger Lily on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:39 AM PSTa moral work ethic
Context, interesting article about life modelling/ reactions
by Truthseeker9 on Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:57 AM PST"Some people," McCarthy says, "view us as only slightly above prostitutes. I don't think society understands. If you say you're a life model, a lot of people go red and laugh. Or they go on to the next question, as if you haven't said anything." Simon tells a similar story. "Some people in the wider world just don't accept it at all," she says. "I once told someone at a party what I do and she said, 'Oh, do you do porn as well?' I had to say: 'no, it's very different.'"
//www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2009/apr/07/life-model-artists-studio
Multiple husbands in
by vildemose on Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:48 AM PSTMultiple husbands in India and China:
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyandry_in_India
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyandry
Polyandry anthropology:
//books.google.com/books?id=yx6mJudIv20C&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105&dq=polyandry%2Banthropological&source=bl&ots=Ept0xvpCq0&sig=Ziw68e1reGKpqsHVrZNO4G-WNEo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t1gcT-bKAqfmiALK0JDQCA&sqi=2&ved=0CGYQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=polyandry%2Banthropological&f=false
Matriarchy
A matriarchy is a society in which females, especially mothers, have the central roles of political leadership and moral authority. It is also sometimes called a gynocratic[citation needed] or gynocentric[citation needed] society. The male equivalent is a patriarchy.
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy
A state of war only serves as an excuse for domestic tyranny.--Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.
Re: "women are calling all the shots and doing all the work!"
by Roozbeh_Gilani on Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:37 AM PSTYolanda, you dont have to go all the way to China to find such a society. I can take you for a guided tour of my ancestoral land, Gilan, on my next visit to Iran, if you'd like to...
"Personal business must yield to collective interest."
Interesting Clip
by jirandoust on Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:24 AM PSTposted by Vildemose! Though can't help noticing big smiles on every one of those women in clip!!!:)
............
by yolanda on Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:15 AM PSTI read MG's link. Here is a video of Naxi people of China. It is a matrilineal society:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r9nHrGten8
Here is Mosuo people of China.....there is no marriage, people can start and end a relationship any time they want.......women are calling all the shots and doing all the work!
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoTrARDa8BU&feature=fvwrel
As far as I am concern...
by Bavafa on Sun Jan 22, 2012 09:57 AM PSTRegarding all of these and so much attention that has gone to this act, the sad part is that there are many women bravely fighting IRI and as a result spending years in Evin prison, away from their husband and children, yet few take time to show their appreciation and support for their bravery.
But when someone shows bravery in Paris by taking her clothes off, as much as I support it, they got a ton of support from our community. It is more of a testament about our priority rather than their breaking taboo.
'Hambastegi' is the main key to victory
Mehrdad
A Society Without Fathers or Husbands: The Na of China
by Mash Ghasem on Sun Jan 22, 2012 09:24 AM PST//www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2001/oct/...
Multiple
by vildemose on Sun Jan 22, 2012 08:20 AM PSTMultiple Husbands
//video.nationalgeographic.com/video/player/places/culture-places/beliefs-and-traditions/india_multiplehusbands.html
A state of war only serves as an excuse for domestic tyranny.--Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.
Mash ghasem jan: thank you.
by vildemose on Sun Jan 22, 2012 08:18 AM PSTMash ghasem jan: thank you.
A state of war only serves as an excuse for domestic tyranny.--Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.
Disenchanted Jaan, the next taboo is to have...
by Oon Yaroo on Sun Jan 22, 2012 08:15 AM PSTgay (not happy) akhoonds leading the Friday prayer sermons!
The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State
by Mash Ghasem on Sun Jan 22, 2012 08:08 AM PSTVildemose some argue that it all starts from here:
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_the_Fam...
و غایت رهایی/ بر عُریانیشان/ جامهی عصمت بود
Mash GhasemSun Jan 22, 2012 08:05 AM PST
زنان
عشقها را آورده بودند،
اندامهایشان
از حرارتِ پذیرفتن و پروردن
تبدار مینمود،
طلب
از کمرگاههاشان زبانه میکشید
و غایت رهایی
بر عُریانیشان
جامهی عصمت بود.
//www.shamlou.org/index.php?q=node/212
What is so different between
by vildemose on Sun Jan 22, 2012 08:03 AM PSTWhat is so different between a man's body and woman's body?? Why is it that a man's naked body does not affect his worth as a human being? Why the double standards?
Why are women's worth is only defined in terms of the body or the flesh between their legs? Why do men see women as a Vagina?? Are women merely sexual organs to be used for the pleasure of men?? Do women view themselves as human beings with a brain or just a piece of sexual organ(s) to give pleasure to men??
A state of war only serves as an excuse for domestic tyranny.--Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.
"engaging in porn activity have been praised ......"!!!!!
by Roozbeh_Gilani on Sun Jan 22, 2012 07:45 AM PSTThe bloggers cynical, yet transparent attempt at branding of Golshifteh's picture (regardless of why she did it and where we stand on the subject of public nudity...) as "porn activity", at a time when an Iranian/canadian blogger is just condemned to execution by the Fascist islamist regime of Iran for "porn activity", leads little doubt in my mind where his agenda is and what he is driving at.
My response to the blogger: Boro baba, khodeti...
"Personal business must yield to collective interest."