Fesenjoon Returns

Fesenjoon

I already told you about new prints of Quran and that is why I do not like to read the new prints.

you said;

"RESPECT IS A TWO WAY STREET" 

I absolutely agree with you BUT why don't you try to be more reasonable. From you past blogs and comments it is clear to be you are not happy about Quran's verses. You should consider when this book was first published, which is abut 1400 years ago. I am sure you know how arabs were like then and that is why it is full of warnings.

You consider yourself educated and understanding why don't you try to be more reasonable. I noticed people who particlarly dislike islam, themselves do not behave any better that fanatics.

Fairness and Equality in Justice

Dr Mohandes

I agree with some of your points but you said;

 "any kid in this country virtually had one"

No Dr joon, not every kid had it, in fact this is why some muslems are so angry and this is why our historic country had a revolution.

Also what if people who break the law were either misinformed or deliberately agitated, are they guilty??? This is what I am trying to explain we Iranians are VICTIMS.

Isn't it clear for you how some govrenments secretly supporting IRI. It is because there is a conspiracy to distroy our society, That is why we are VICTIMS.

//iranian.com/main/2012/sep/kaveh-hands-iran 

Fairness and Equality in Justice

AK4U

Look, dont expect me to respect something which you yourself refuse to even read and think about.

Lets talk again when you come out of your blind defensive shell, adopt impartiality, and give me a straight answer instead of shooting ad hominems at me. Youre the one who is "bothered". Not me. You came "complaining" to me on this blog. I didnt complain to you. I dont care if you believe in Jupiter or Juno. Youre the one who thinks Islamic beliefs should not be attacked.

btw, Muhammad is not my or your relative. He's a foreign warlord from 7th century Arabia that had 11 wives, the youngest being 9, formulated a violent political ideology, and spread it everywhere by using the sword. MILLIONS of people have died by the sword of Islam in the past 1400 years. So dont talk to me about respect. RESPECT IS A TWO WAY STREET.  

Amirkabir

I don't see why my backgrounds in politics should have a bearing on this particular subject!

Regardless, If you are talking they way the world works and there were invisible hands at work who wanted to intentionally and purposely curtail our progress, that is one thing and i will believe you, but what has that got to do with people's religious belief and the degree of their piety?

Iranian people have always been among the most educated and well-rounded and knoweledgeable when it came down to politics and no one really had to spoon - feed them.

having a bicycle, any kind of it, did have nothing to do with our national wealth and revenue index. any kid in this country virtually had one and if you didn't maybe you had your priorities set somewhere else!  

I am saying, if anyone breaks the law it most certainly is her or his own fault, and the same exact thing goes for believing in a certain religion. no one , but no one can ever force you to believe anything , no matter how much brainwashing they will put you through. 

Vasalam! 

Dr Mohandes

I really do not know what is your background in politics, but I am sure if you think you will come to the fact that there is a reason why some societies are called first world and why some others are called third world. It is proven fact that Iranians did not have the chance to prove themselves better. The politicians prefer it because then expectations WILL not grow too high. To be honest this is a very involved subject and I understand why a person like yourself may not agree with it. Do not look at the internet today where everyone has a chance to learn. In the past Iranians did not have much choice.  

I do not understand your bicycle example but if I never had a chance to ride a bicycle (considering the amount of petroleum we have) YES I would blame my father or a useless government.

You said;

you are wrong in assuming that all the blame should be put squarely on politicians. it is the people who actually give them a reason or reasons to carry on their dastardly deeds

Are you saying if someone breaks the law it is not his/her fault?

Politicians plan and execute, Iranians are VICTIMS.  

Fesenjoon

Who are all these scholars that believe the original Arabic text has not changes? As yourself know too well this Quranic miracle is questionable. This is exactly what is wrong with some religions. Also the interpretations have changed a lot too.

I agree one must do both. You said you studied both BUT it seemed you have not got it have you?

What is bothering you so much about verses? Is it the way non believers are spoken off? I really do not want to start an argument BUT sometimes you should read your own writing. Considering the degree of insult you write about profit Mohammad, if someone write about YOUR RELATIVES that way you will take legal action? So why are you complaining?

Finally your judgement is your judgment. Since the start of Islam nearly 1400 years gone. Millions and millions of people made a mistake except a few people like yourself. Does it make sense to you? Well if it does I have no option to leave your judgement to yourself.

Amirkabir

1- You mean to tell me that it is the politicians who will do the thinking for the people??? who else is supposed to be asking all the tough questions and deeply wonder about various issues? is it the people or the politicians??  When you never had the chance to ride a bicycle would you blame your president or your father for not buying you one, therefore giving you that chane?

2- All i suggested was for you to read some of his material so as to familiarize yourself to his way of thinking and the way he looks at religion. There was no talk about the origin of islam or religion.

Oh trust me. it is all real over on this side of the pond. yes siree bob. 

AK4U

I think you'll agree that one cannot defend a position that one does not read of and/or fully learned about. It is therefore your moral duty to read the Quran and think on its verses, if you think Islamic beliefs are to be respected. 

That being said, almost all scholars unanimously believe that the original Arabic text of the Quran hasnt changed over time. (they cite this as one of the Quran's distinguished miracles). However the translations do change, as you say. There are two ways around this:

1. Refer to multiple sources for different translations. There are quite a few around in English and Farsi. At least a dozen, if not more.

2. Learn classical Arabic, then read the original text yourself. This helps alot actually.

The best way is to do both. I did, and it helped me form my judgement.

Dr Mohandes

Two points;

1- How can you blame the people if they NEVER had a chance to think correctly. Who do you think is responsible for this problem???? It is the politicians.

2- I wonder why is suddenly everyone is concern about the origin of islam? Before the influence of europeans in middle east, everyone was happy. NOW you tell me what have you discovered about the origin of islam that for the last 1300 years NO ONE DID???

Yes Dr Mohandes keep it real for yourself too.

Have a good week.

Honestly Fesenjoon

No not most of it anyway and there is a very good reason for it.

It seems the meaning or translations of words have changed considerately during the 20th century. In other words I love to read an original Quran which was printed over 500 years ago. 

I believe some people like yourself been reading the modern versions. The trouble with the modern versions are that they are misleading. One must be careful what one reads. The fact that muslems think no one can change the words of Quran in itself is very questionable.

Amirkabir

May i make a suggestion here?

you need to read M. shermer's writings and the logic he uses in them, that might help you adopt a different perception.

and, you are wrong in assuming that all the blame should be put squarely on politicians. it is the people who actually give them a reason or reasons to carry on their dastardly deeds, one of them being misrepresenting the image of religion.

You can believe in god and all the good things that comes with it, but believing in a religion without knowing its origins, is a whole different ballgame my good man.

peace out bro. keep it real. 

AK4U

tell me AK4U, have you actually read (studied) the book of Quran? Honestly. 

a few points

You are making a few mistakes but before that you said in the last 35 years so if I am not mistaken you are not a very young person.

1- you said;

religion rams its laws and belief system down my throat

and

Islam is the one that has been imposing it's beliefs on Iran and Iranians

It is NOT the religion but people (if you can call them people). In other words politicians take advantage of religion. The whole issue is NOT personal against you BUT to distroy relision's image.

2- Yes you do have rights, BUT you insult everyone. Just because I dislike you, should  insult your ancestors??????

In other words you are abusing your freedom of speech.

Fairness and Equality in Justice

AK4U

I'm not judging anybody, am I? You are free to believe in the Cup of Jamshid or whatever turns you on. I wont judge you. It's not my place.

But if you're talking about my writings criticizing religion and religious belief, then that's a whole different thing. When institutionalized religion rams its laws and belief system down my throat by force for 35 yrs, dont expect me to play nice and respect it. 

If religious folk had kept to their mosque and dhikr, none of this would be happening. I have a right to choose how I want to live. If Islam doesnt respect my rights, then I wont respect it. Islam is the one that has been imposing it's beliefs on Iran and Iranians, not the other way around. We didnt go to Hijaz with a sword to spread God's word. It's the other way around. Always has been.

I only wished

your understanding towards other peoples' belief was as civilised as your logic.

deqqat kon

See my comment posted on Thu Sep 06, 2012 07:31 PM PDT

Fesenjoon

It does not say if you believe in the cup or maybe I am not used to your writing.

Ak4u

See my answer to Demo below. It was written for u too.

Fesenjoon

Yes I do. What about you?????

Thanks Demo

You're a traditionalist conservative.

I used to be one too. But times change, and I had good teachers, conservative and liberal. From the Islamist Haddad Adel who was my Farsi Lit teacher in high school, to  Iraj Malekpour who taught me Astronomy, to David Chalmers the hippie philosopher. The endproduct however turned out to be quite unpredictable. My beliefs are a bit unorthodox and rather unique. So don't be surprised if they seem contradictory and a bit offensive. I always love to have the opportunity (with AO) to point out the absurdities and fallacies of belief systems to you. But I don't mean to be rude even though my perspectives are most often controversial and vex many a person. Thanks for your input.

Dear Fesenjoon2

Thanks for your answer, your patience, & for your valuable time spending with all of us here on your blog.

Now perhaps is the time to close the book with your blog, having had your permission of course, by concluding that the roots of the 'psychic technology' in our country today is NOT the re-occurence of scrying with the Cup of Jamshid but rather a contiuation of what we have been proud of as a nation for the past 25 centuries. The AN's speech along with your posted pictures are only a few indisputable evidence of that NOT. The religion was supposed to up-root the said technology but it did NOT and became serving it instead (own personal opinion).  

Regards.

TS-9 jaan

No worries.  I'm only taken a couple of weeks (or may be even less) off to catch up with backed up work.  I've been spending a lot of time here recently.  I'll be back in no time to annoy the ommat-e hezbollah! :-)

I have to think about your questions.  In terms of "morality" in general, Dawkins addresses it in The God Delusion (I believe.  I read it a while back).  I think his quote is (paraphrasing) "I don't need religion to tell me murder is wrong," "I don't need religion to tell me rape is wrong."  I know that already. Plus, (this is me speaking) please bear in mind that in the mind of an atheist like me, religions were made up by people.  Those books were written by human beings.  charity, morality, etc. are concepts created by humans.  So, there's no disconnect there.

Anyway, I will address them in the blog.  

Be good. 

TS9

raahat baash...

Demo

So, in answer to the question "do I believe the Cup of Jamshid ever existed?", my answer is:

To say yes, would require evidence.

To say no, would also require evidence (even though highly improbable).

I dont have evidence one way or another. So a "yes or no" answer just doesnt apply.

In fact that's my outlook toward religion and everything in general in this world: Everything is subject to doubt. The universe is at its core statistical in nature; uncertainty governs the universe. The only thing one cannot doubt, is the act of doubting itself. Cogito Ergo Sum.

That's my belief. raazi shodi? 

AO jaan

Sad to hear you'll take time out from IC, but as well as the God blog, any chance of

1. your take about quotes like "all good things come from God" - the notion of little man sitting on your shoulder making things happen,  

2. also perhaps another blog too - whether atheists can "love" and be as caring as religious people. Too many examples of successful and charitable people around, but these to are on top of the list.

//archive.theamericanview.com/index.php?id=649 

Fesenjoon, sorry to hijack your blog for a sec ...  

Rea

Rea, I made the collage. I think of myself as a good observer. That's how the collage came into being.

Btw, AN isn't joking. He actually said this. He also believes in Genies and exorcism. There was a whole scandal on that a while back. He's also on record for saying that a 16 year old girl invented a way of creating nuclear energy in their kitchen. And then there is his famous comment about having a halo around his head at the UN general assembly.

He has quite a repertoire of weird-ass statements. 

Rea

This blog is all Fesenjoon, artwork and all.  I had nothing to do with it.  

Lots of people

.... on IC need to chill out. Me, to start with.;o)  At least, until the full moon is over.

@AO, looking forward to your blog on the non-entity.

Beautiful "collage"

... or whatever the word. Credit goes to whom, btw ?

But this stuff about AN saying so n so, is this a joke, or what?

The much anticipated "God Blog" will be written

one of these days.  I want to take some time off from IC - but that's the next project.  I have you in mind on that one.  It'll be fun to debate.