Musings of a former chicken

Right

Hoshang jan it is the division that is being exploited. That is why I have revised my own position. I have come to the conclusion that all reasonable people including: right; left; Nationalist; Monarchist; Marxist should be working together. 

Next go around NO repression of any ideology.  I see no reason why these forces should be at odds after democracy is restored. Of course there will be disagreements over economics and so on. But not over basic freedoms which I hope we will all respect. 

Take Care,

VPK

FYI, I'm in Toronto ( most of the year)

Have been a proud atheist since god knows when, ( must confess, in school, right before exams I would pray to pass the test, but other than that I don't belive in a "supreme being")

And still think a typical DEHATY from any small village in Iran would display more decorum, class than you ever could. Have a nice day, cheers

Targol dear

Allah'u'Abho

Stay in peace please.

I am not Wahid Azal. But you are Faryar Mansouri.

If you are really not a Haifan Baha'i then

what do you think of Baha'i Sects that are being persecuted by the mainstream Haifan Baha'i Cult?

VPK jan, both: the splits wihtin us that mullahs use agianst us

and also the repression of Bahais. This named individual was also the
one that actually asked the question on one Bahai women
political-prisoners : " She hasn't been raped, has she?" This shows you
the DEHATY peasant mentality that we still have to deal with.

Your
observation on IC is very correct, this here is a microcosm (virtual) a miniature 
of our real country, and it has its healthy moments.

Nadeen Khan,
Aryana, .......( mind you these avatars are all one person) and who
ever in any way, shape or form questions the repression of any minority
in Iran, are not a part of that moment.

Targol is Haifan

A typical Baha'i from LA.

Conspiracy Theories

I am sorry Aryana and Nadeem, your points are completely baseless. To draw a connection between Khomeini and a lawyer is odd. Lawyers are meant to defend their clients and that is it. If I were to draw examples of Muslim lawyers defending Christians or Zoroastrians, does this mean that all of the religious groups are secretly working together?

To be honest, you are spinning conspiracy theories. It is amazing how many of your posts are focused on Baha'i splinter groups. I have never seen anything like this.

This is especially puzzling since the size of these splinter groups is relatively so small, in some cases non-existent.

The fact that you are trying to divide Baha'is and make the reference to a non- existent term as "Haifan Baha'i" suggests to me that you are most likely IRI agents, with the intent of dividing the Baha'i community, or are terribly misinformed. Not sure which one is more dangerous.

Again, I am sincere in writing this. My concern is your complete focus on creating misinformation and confusion.

Hoshang Jan

Do you really think the Bahai issue is central to IRI power? Or do you mean that it is exposing fissures in our society that Mollahs exploit. I am interested in what you think.

I know we have many societal problems. At least IC is giving us a platform to air them out. We have not generally had a place to speak without restriction.

I do not think Aryana is asking for suppression of Bahai. He is bringing up issues he has with them. Personally I do not know much about Bahai and am more interested in other issues. 

Persecution in general including Bahai must end in a free Iran. But criticism must be allowed and those doing so not be demonized.

And you wonder why mullahs have lasted as long as they have?

Just read some of these most disturbed diatribes in here: against this minority ( and indirectly calling for its supression) and in "favour" of some other minority.

Nothing short of a fully developed schizophrenia. The worst part is that THIS SINGE INDIVIDUAL, making as many avatars as he "thinks" he needs to "expose" the Bahais he doesn't like, has no idea what an insult to everyones intelligence he's doing, not to mention insulting our tatse,...

Aryana

You are right 100%. I support the rights of Gonabadi derveshis.

NO TO HAIFAN BAHA'ISM.

YES TO ALL OTHER NON POLITICAL BAHA'IS.

BTW

Where was the readership of this site in the past couple of weeks beating its chest as strongly for the 23 convicted Gonabadi dervishes as it is once again shamelessly beating it for the Haifan Bahai cult? Why the conspicuous silence and only the token news item about the plight of 23 Sufis while the Haifan Baha'is only get red carpet treatment around here? Wait, the Gonabadi Sufis don't have paid lobbyists working for them in Washington DC, London and Brussels whereas the Haifan Bahais do. That's why!

Mr Ali Najafi, you answer: do you consider the blood of Haifan Bahais to be more red than that of Gonabadi Sufi dervishes? Is the life of 7 Bahai functionaries living the high hog under the label of incarceration more important than that of 23 fellow Iranian Sufis convicted in a ridiculous kangaroo trial which can see them face death row for heresy and apostasy?

Khejalatam vaghe'an khoob chizist!!!!

-

May we be amongst those who are to bring about the transfiguration of the Earth - Yasna XXX 9

Ali Najafi, you don't know what you're talking about...

Kindly go patronise somewhere else, in case you don't know who I am! I refer to Haifan Bahaism as Haifan Baha'ism because the predominant sect of Baha'ism is the one that is under the aegis and control of the UHJ (universal house of justice) based in Haifa, Israel. As such the organization based in Haifa is Haifan and as it is a specific
organization it is hyphenated as Haifan because it is not something else. I trust this all makes sense
to you now and we don't have to retreive anyone from koocheh-ye
ali-chap. There are multiple other Baha'i sects, none of whom are being persecuted by the IRI btw, and none of whom are based in Haifa, Israel. This is why we call the Haifans Haifans and the Orthodox Bahais, Orthodox Bahais, and the BUPC Baha'is, the BUPC Bahais, etc.

The Haifan Baha'is, Khomeini and the IRI have been in bed since prominent Iranian Haifan Bahai Abdu'l-Hamid Ishraq-Khavari was a personal friend of Khomeini's and in  the mid 1960s the lawyer who represented and pleaded Khomeini into exile out of Iran was a card carrying Haifan Bahai. On top of this, when the regime came to power, it didn't take very long for Khomeini to go after the number one enemy of the Baha'is, namely the Anjoman-e-Hojjatiyyeh. Also given the fact that compared to other minorities, such as the Sufis or the Ahl-e-Haqq, in real terms the Haifan Bahai community of Iran have had it pretty easy, and I would say these two are definitely hand in glove and directed behind the scenes by the same infernal forces of global subversion. I also draw your attention to a statement of Robert Dreyfuss in his book Hostage HOSTAGE TO KHOMEINI (New Benjamin Franklin House: New York, 1980) pp.117-118 (Pdf pages 73-74)

//www.wlym.com/pdf/iclc/hostage.pdf

&

//www.archive.org/details/HostageToKhomeini

...Today the Bahai
cult is hated in Iran, and is considered correctly to be an arm of the
British Crown. During the destabilization of the Shah in 1978, it was
widely reported that in several instances the Bahai
cult secretly funded the Khomeini Shi’ite movement. In part, the money
would have flowed through the cult’s links to the same international
‘human rights’ organizations, such as Amnesty International, that
originally sponsored the anti-Shah movement in Iran. These movements
also derive from the “one world” currents associated with the Bahais
since the early 1900s. (If any Iranians have been misled on the
question of the Bahais by the supposed antipathy of Khomeini’s clique
to the Bahais, it should be noted that the Bahai cultists often deliberately encouraged anti-Bahai activities as camouflage)...

Also see pp. 115-116 (Pdf page 72)

Given the above, I would strongly advise a big dosage of the mindfulness medicine here for yourself, beginning with some basic information that does not involve uncritical fawning for the Haifan Bahais. For everyone else, see Bahai CULT FAQ. 

-

Islamic Republic of Lies

The ease with which officials of this regime spew outrageous obvious lies is astonishing ... eineh ab khordan doroogh migan, oonam dorooghayeh gondeh gondeh ... I think they actually hold a world record for this.

Bahai's have been barred from universities for 31 years, their homes and businesses get demolished on a daily basis. How can they be "university professors" or "wealthy" in your fascist regime Mr. Larijani?

Ali

When this guy says "haifan bahai", he means that it's like jewish zionism, or sharia islamist extremism, cults, though he has no proof to back it up. Bahai people are great people. I live in V.A and there loads of them here, nice and respectful people who pose no threat to anyone.

 --------------------------------------------------------------

"They are not afraid of the ideology alone, but of the detemination and will of the men behind it"

Being Mindful of our Comments

Aryana, I am sorry but your claims are odd and appear misinformed.

First, why refer to it as Haifan Baha'i? You are correct, the Baha'i world center is in Haifa in present day Israel. As you are probably aware, Baha'u'llah, when he was banished to Ottoman Palestine, stated that the Baha'i world center should be established on Mount Carmel in Haifa.

Do you always connect the a city with the religion? Do you call Islam, Mecca Muslims? Or Aryanem Vaejah Zoroastrians? Or Jerusalem Jews? Or Vatican Christians? My only conclusion is that you are trying to belittle Baha'is by your tone. Maybe I am wrong?

Second, to assert that Baha'is and the IRI are working together does not need a response. It is such a shameful and hurtful remark. I only hope that you are not aware of the magnitude and implications of your remarks. I am sure you are aware the since the beginning of the Baha'i religion in the mid-1800s, Baha'is have faced opposition, in various degrees, by the Qajars, Pahlavis, and present day mullahs. Maybe you are too young to remember the government sanctioned speeches of Falsafi in 1955. The mob activity and property destruction associated with that period.

I understand that you may not agree with the teachings of Baha'u'llah. By your tone, it sounds like you may not even like Baha'is. That is all fine. However, I do ask that you think carefully about what you are saying and the implications it has. This applies to all of us. Our tone should be kind and we need to be careful that we are not adding to the misinformation that already exists.

Thanks and I sincerely hope these observations were helpful.

Larijani is 100% correct: Haifan Bahaism is a absolutely cult!

But that he is saying it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black since the same thing he is accusing the Haifan Bahais of doing his own cult does as well.

That said, there is no longer any doubt in my mind that the IRI is being systematically directed to do such negative advertising on behalf of the Haifan Bahai organization. If there was any doubt before, there is none any more that these two cults of the IRI and the Haifan Bahaism are sleeping in the same bed. Iranians beware. Both the accuser and the accused in this dialogue are demonic cancers to our collective future!

Haifan Bahaism is a dangerous cult just like the IRI!

- 

May we be amongst those who are to bring about the transfiguration of the Earth - Yasna XXX 9

Demo

Maybe you're right and The system is faulty. I'll look into that. Thanks!

G. Rahmanian, Let Others Listen As Well

Not only my speaker is super super loud I can hear all this LIER's talk word by word. I am no dummy. Just listen right before your indicated sentence:"ANY CULT EITHER SHIA OR BAHAI, IT DOES NOT MATTER, IT WILL BE PREVENTED BY LAW....." Let other listeners also listen to it! He can fool some people sometime but he can not fool all the people all the time!!!

PS: According to Quran, the "pure" religion only & only belongs to GOD (and not to Mohammed as the regime wrongly calls it) & any breaking up of GOD ordained religion is indeed a "blasphemy" be it Sunni, Shia, etc. (See Verses 30-32 of Section 30 in Quran). A believer should always ask himself/herself which one of these man-made sects the Prophet himself belonged to???

Demo

Make YOUR speaker louder and listen beyond 1:59: "We had numerous cult practices even with Shi'a group." And continue listening. Have someone more knowledgeable with regards to Shi'ism and more proficient in the language he uses. "With" in his sentence translates into "within." He cannot and would not call Shi'ism a cult because that amounts to blasphemy, no matter how "khodi" he may be. There are many Sunnis or non-believers who would call Shi'ism a cult. I have never seen or heard a Shi'ite doing that except in the cases he is referring to. Anyhow, his chief objective is to justify attacks on human rights and persecution of minorities in Iran. Religion is an excuse!

Odd Interview

What an odd interview. In his core, Larijani doesn't seem to know the virtue of truthfulness.

It seems that he is on a big offense against the Baha'is, but his tactics are odd and confused. Given all of the challenges in the country, why waste your time targeting a peaceful and law-abiding religious community?

Several points that were blatantly dishonest:

1) In order to be a Baha'i, the individual needs to recognize Baha'u'llah. If they do not believe in Baha'u'llah then they are not Baha'is. It is best to be honest with yourself, instead of following something you don't believe. This is why people can choose to no longer be Baha'is. His whole argument that in the Baha'i religion, you cannot leave, is wrong. Each person's spiritual and religious development is in their own hands. No one can say what you "can" or "can't" believe. 

My question to Larijani would be, "can people leave Islam in Iran, either because they are atheists/agnostics or for another religion? Would it be punishable by death to do so?

2) It is a known fact that it is a policy of the IRI not to allow Baha'is to enter university. Targeting and closing the doors to a population to education is one of the worst forms of persecution. This has been an IRI policy for 30 years! The few Baha'is that are in university are thrown out, once it is known that they are Baha'is. How cruel is that?

This is just one example of many: //www.iranpresswatch.org/post/6919

3) Who has the right to label another religion a "cult"? Many people would label Shiites as following a cult. Would this be correct? Of course, it would not be correct.

This is being used by the IRI to build mistrust in the population. Here are some observations on what makes a cult. Cults often push people not to develop their own understandings. Cults tend to force blind obedience. Often times, cults are dominated by charismatic individual(s). Additionally, cults will tend to put superstition ahead of reason. Finally, cults torment (or in some cases target) people that choose they no longer believe.

If Larijani were to be sincere and really understand the Baha'is, he would find that it is the farthest thing from being a cult.

First, Baha'is strongly believe in the independent investigation of truth. Each individual needs to use their brain to figure out what is correct. Second, Baha'is do not have clergy. Baha'is elect their governing institutions at the local, national, and international levels. Third, there is a strong belief in the Baha'i religion in the harmony between religion and science. Religion without science is viewed a being FANATICISM. Like wise, science without religion is viewed as being the base form of materialism. Fourth, in the Baha'i religion, each individual's belief in Baha'u'llah is personal. People are free to leave the Baha'i faith if they no longer believe in it.

These are just some of my thoughts. I hope this is helpful and useful. I know that with all of the misinformation coming from the IRI and its agents against Baha'is, the discussion can become very confusing (even on this site). As in all things, we need to be careful that the IRI's dishonesty does not creep into our minds.

This guy's crazy

Who cares about religion? You can always change that, blood and who you are can't be change. Btw, this guy's such a lier.

 --------------------------------------------------------------

"They are not afraid of the ideology alone, but of the detemination and will of the men behind it"

Time for truth

Why is the regime of Iran so scared of Bahais? Why during the last 31 years of killing and attacking them in all manners they have not given them even 5 minutes in T.V. or any other means of communication. This by itself explais everything. The regime is affraid of truth. But for how long they can hide it. People are tired of lies and seek to find the answers. Its a question of time.

Sects, cults and states of mind

Any and all "religions" " ideologies" or any school of thought, once they seperate themselves from the popultion at large and see their benefits greater than everyone else it becomes a sect.

It could have millions of adherents, but it's that sectarian mentality, the sectarianism if you will: seeing oneself above others, that qualifies it as a sect. Roozbeh is correct in characterizing  Bahais as the most apolitical, anti-political community in Iran ( such historical evolutionof the Bahai community is compeletly  understandable ofcourse).

As far as truly destructive cults, Hojatieh is probably # 1 in terms of aggregate damages done to Iran: very close behind them, in # 2  is probably MOK,....

G. Rahmanian

Your take 180 degrees differs from what is crystal clear on the tape @ 1:59-2:00 minutes of the video. Make your speaker louder to hear the actual words. Of coure he dares to go back to IRAN becuse he is one of the so called "Khodee (Khavas)" of the regime and/or is a member the elite/exclusive "Shia" club of the country!!

AO

That was my take as well. He is talking about cults within the Shi'ite sect. Otherwise he wouldn't dare go back to IR.

Some corrections and some questions

"1) Baha'ism is a sect of sect of sect of
Islam, it is a sect of Babism, which is a sect of Shaikhism which is a
sect of Shiism, which is again considered as a sect of Islam. And now it
claims itself to be a Brand new religion."

With this logic, any religion can be called a sect. What would be criteria that  distinguish 'sects' from 'religions'?

"2) They have a very strong Administrative System. This system is
governed by the 'Supreme Seat' in Haifa, the most holy 'Infallible' body
ofBaha'i Administration that is headed by 'All Male, 9 Individuals' and
their collective decision is believed to be "inspired by God" Himself."

That is more or less correct, although I do not recall the term 'most holy' for the Universal House of Justice. Its establishment is decreed by Baha'ullah himself in his Kitab-i-Aqdas. Since 1963 it is elected every 5 years by all national spiritual assemblies (now around 180 in number). Abdul-Baha wrote: "It is incumbent upon these members (of the Universal House of Justice) to ... deliberate
upon all problems which have caused difference, questions that
are obscure and matters that are not expressly recorded in the
Book. Whatsoever they decide has the same effect as the Text
itself."

"3) Although they believe in equality between men and women, but their
supreme body does not allow membership to women for 'unknown reasons'."

This is correct.

"4) Although they believe is mass teaching, ruhi teaching, direct
teaching, children classes, adult classes, Junior youth classes, all
sort of classes for the masses but they do not believe in teaching the
innocent people of Israel."

It is correct that the Bahai Faith is not actively taught to citizens of Israel (whether they are jews or not, 'innocent' or not).

"According to them Israeli Jews are not in
need of Baha'i faith but Iranian muslims can only gain success if they
become Baha'is."

As far as I know this statement has no root in Baha'i writings or practice.

"Converting Iranian Moslem is a worship..."

Strange statement - 'a worship'?

"...and wasting time
in teaching the faith to Israeli Jews is forbidden."

There is no active teaching in Israel (not only to Jews) because establishment of a Bahai community in Israel is currently not allowed.

"5) The guidance (orders) of UHJ or Universal House of Justice, the
supreme body of Baha'is is obligatory on all the Baha'is to follow."

Yes, because this is how Bahaullah and Abdul-Baha, in their writings, have ensured unity in the Bahai community. I do not find it strange to have an elected body give binding directives and guidance. It also happens in democratic countries.

"If
any Baha'i is critical of this body or any other administrative body or
if a Baha'i asks too many questions, regarding the guardianship or the
authority of the Supreme Body, he is considered as 'Covenant Breaker ' "

Asking questions is the best starting point for gaining deeper knowledge and is encouraged. It does not lead to being considered a 'Covenant Breaker'. You'd have to do more than that. 

"... [a covenant breaker] and is shunned and his membership removed. All the baha'is are then
advised (ordered) to cut off any / all relations with this guy."

This is correct and, thankfully, quite rare. This is based on instructions by Baha'ullah and Abdul-Baha themselves to protect the community. Otherwise, no adverse action is to be taken towards these individuals in any way.

"5) The NSA (National Spiritual Assembly), the national supreme body
has always 4-5 Persian Baha'is."

This is not a rule at all and the number of Persians is different in each country. Depends entirely on who receives most votes in elections without candicacy

"Actually Baha'i faith is a Persian
religion and the Persian members always have a upper hand. Check the
LSAs / NSAs of your area."

I checked - Persian members do not 'always have a upper hand'. Strange statement, perhaps extrapolated from someone's negative experience?

"6) In a span of 165 years Baha'i faith has been divided into 17 more
sects. All are small groups with very few followers but they all claim
to be true and label the rest of the baha'is ascovenant breakers. ... "

It is true that small groups have 'split off' at several times in the development of the Bahai faith, several of which still exist. It is abundantly clear though that the vast majority has followed the instructions of Bahaullah to turn to Abdul-Baha, the instructions of Abdul-Baha to turn to Shoghi Effendi, and the instructions of all these three to turn to the Universal House of Justice elected by all National Spiritual Assemblies. These bahais collectively take care of all holy places and temples. 

AO; Mahmoudg; Nadeem Khan; Roozbeh

Anonymous Observer: Mr. Lier-Jani says very clearly & in plain Engish @ 1:59-2:00 of the Video: "any cult being Bahai or Shia, it does not matter......" Of course, he can hide what is in his heart from you & me but not from his creator!

Mahmoug: You could attack Islam to etenity. But Quran is about eternity. Your first & your last name both are mentioned there also as the most beautiful names. Read it in English if you have problem with Arabic language. The best English translation is by Mohammed Asad, in humble opinion of mine! The second best is by Yusef Ali.

Nadeem Khan: "lo! as for those who sunder their religion and become schismatics, You have no concerns at all with them. Their affair is only with GOD, who then will tell them what they used to do (Verse 159, Section 6 of Quran).

Roozbeh: If one believes that Quran is the word of GOD then all sects become forbidden/irrelevant. As if the Almighty GOD forgot to mention the appearance of a hidden "Imam" in his book!!! GOD bless us all.

Talking of cults, the Hojjatieh Cult

 Should be of more concern to any Iranian genuinly concerned about dangerous cultism and it's negative effect on social fabric of Iran, than Bahaism, a religiuos sect speceficaly prohibiting it's membership from any political activity

//irandispatch.com/2010/07/28/161/

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."

Dear Muslim Brother

Dearest Muslim brother Nadeem, I am far from perfect myself.Www.Bahai.org

"Persecuting Baha’is on the basis of the “Cult Scenario”

In their campaign in trying to label the Bahai Faith as a "cult" the IR is desperate in a last chance losing battle to justify its crimes and inhumanity against a steadfast defenseless religiously community.

They are applying unprecedented resources in both Iran and abroad to accomplish this, and yet, as with everything else, Iranians have difficulty in accepting their words as anything but self serving propaganda.

Please see below for more detail on this new tactic. 

"Persecuting Baha’is on the basis of the “Cult Scenario”

//www.iranpresswatch.org/post/6783

As much as hate to disagree on this issue

he did not say that Shiism is a cult.  He was talking about cults within Shiism.  That's what he was referring to.