فرمان دادم تا .... ذرات تنم خاک ایران شود

Vildemose

The problem with having a body oversee the implementation of the constitution is that, they can turn to something similar to Guardian Council of IR.

The three independent Branches of government , checks and balances and ultimately The People in my view are the ones who should oversea the implementation and we should be careful not to create a group of people above others. 

Hova jan: Sounds great.

Hova jan: Sounds great. Thank you so much for taking this monumental task.

Perhaps additions/amendments and follow up documents for the

next round of this effort !?

Hova jan: I understand all

Hova jan: I understand all the logistics. However, what I'm trying to do here is to raise the bar and treat this document as a ready-to-be implemented in case of a sudden collapse of the regime. All contingecy planning should be thought out and planned for in this document.  What if the regime falls next week or next month? We need to have a working model to proceed before outsiders or domestic enemies of Iran hijack our provisional government.

vildemose, interpretation & implementation of a constitution

is the function of various branches of a given government, that in turn depends on the type of the government, and then the legal structure within which that government operates. A constitution defines the framework of protection of key principles & rights. The rest is beyond its scope or that of our undertaking. Furthermore, doing so now is premature and may present the creators of this documents (us in this case) as a political party or prescribers.

The key function of this document is to serve as a template and for education and preventative purposes. It is not the constitution of the post IRR Iran. Once written & circulated it needs approval via referenda after appropriate time interval so people can absorb it. That can only be done when appropriate processes and stages have completed and duly elected lawmakers can then go to work within the framework of the constitution.

A constitution should also

A constitution should also have tangible and concrete mechanisms of enforcement and implementation. Who oversees the implementation of the Constitution?

 What are the institutions/body that safeguard, implement, and  enforce (through laws) the provisions in the Constitution? A Constitution without those mechanisms is worthless.

Ben

Hovakhshatareh defined the intent of the constitution draft already but I will look in to areas that you say is micromanaging.

Just keep in mind, unless a constitution has a working structure detail and some raod map to its intenet, it will remain as only a nice thing to shelve without any specific description of how it intends to achieve its goals. The details of the government structure and how they function are in fact common with most working constitutions of other countries , eg: USA, Germany etc.

Dear benross, I leave the response on full constitution to David

who initiated it on his thread. On this specific activity, the blog and my response to Alimostofi clarifies the intent.

As I have spoken with David, the intent of the constitution is not to introduce a formal one but to provide a preamble/'what it could look like' sample/alternative so when/if the group of 5 and other islamists or opportunist try to introduce a non-secular or a 'secular looking' one with hidden phrasing, people will have had exposure to a sample and be on their toes. So it is a preventative measure in that sense. It also is a step in the direction of organizing and gelling the seculars that despite large numbers and capability have yet to organize around a unifying idea, that this documnet can support. The first comment on this thread, from me, also suggests as much.

I'm not a legal expert. But

I'm not a legal expert. But it seems to me that a constitution describes what constitutes the principals of a nation and its governance. It doesn't micromanage it. The more you go in details, the more you ensure its failure, as a constitution for 21st century.

I even noticed some comments about the duty of the ministry of justice. Or a time period for conscription, the purpose of it etc. This is supposed to be a constitution for generations. How possibly can you assign specific tasks to specific departments? It is for prime minister to choose his or her cabinet, and however unlikely, the minister of agriculture for example may take charge of the department of justice as well, if the head of the government choose to do so. What I'm trying to say is, that you are trying to govern the country on paper!

But this is a good exercise for developing ideas and debating issues. I don't think it will be a constitution.

I'll refine, translate and initiate distribution

and post here. Meanwhile, any suggestions within the next day or two can be incorporated.

Thank you all 

Thank you David jan. Khasteh

Thank you David jan. Khasteh nabashi.

Vildemose

The sentence in bold was added to article 4:

Article 4

In the Secular Republic of Iran, the affairs of the country must be administered on the basis of public opinion expressed by the means of elections, including the election of the President, the representatives of the National Consultative Assembly (Parliament), members of Provincial Councils of Governors, Provincial, City, Region, District and Village Councils, Governors, Mayors and alike or by means of referenda in matters specified in other articles of this Constitution. Elected or appointed officials are prohibited from practicing nepotism in all forms.

The officials elected or

The officials elected or appointed in the new secular Constitution should be prohibited from practicing nepotism in all forms. This would decrease corruption and leads to a more just system.

David & vildemose, I will leave out the 'key position' &

anti-nepotism for more detailed documents. I will proceed with what we have by end of today.

vildemose

There are no references to past regime(s) whatsoever 

Is there an anti-nepotism of

Is there an anti-nepotism of officials of the government provision in our provisional Secular Constitution?

Hovakhshatareh

Key positions may have been your intent but the text did not reflect that :) As it is, even a low level clerk at ministery of information is considered as "all associated with current regime"

         - All associated with current regime (not directly associated or accused of a crime) excluded from any formal position for X (20 or so) years

David ET, the emphasis was on 'holders of key positions' which

by default means guilty as they have supported and/or enforced policies of a murderous regime. This is not a 'blanket'.

However, your point has merit. I will take this item out and leave it for other documents and perhaps for a full legalese version by law makers. But it needs to be addressed and while the future government must be one of civility & compassion, it must also be firm, decisive & determined Restitutions must be made and role conduct & consequences must be established for future generations to think twice before behaving the same way. 

Hovakhshatareh

If they had not committed crime or corruption and not been found guilty by the secular judiciary :

and they follow the new secular law , then what harm can they do? and if they do, aren't laws going to stop them? There is more danger to blanket guilty verdict .

Remember wrote s you wathe base is innocent until proven guilt and if one is not proven guilty they should have the same right as other citizens.

Future government should be a government of forgiveness , solidarity and peace among citizens and not like the present one which has intentionally devided us from the beginning.

my 2 cents

MM

The intent of secularism is not to erase our history, traditions and background but not to force it on others.

Western nations have secular democracies but that does not mean they have erased christmas or Easter as holidays or have changed their calender from Jesus birthday.

The same goes with Iran. It is just that as for our calender I have proposed an Iranian and human right based origin versus an Arab one.

Norooz means new day and it starts on the 1st day of spring which is also science based and therefore despite its origins it is very much secular in nature celebrating new day , new spring and new beginnings.

Seculars will not deny our heritage or even our religions or custumes and only provide the atmosphere for all to freely excercise them.

The secular Iran will most probably still respect the major Islamic holidays also because those are the wishes of the majority of the People who are Muslims (eg: Eids etc but will reduce many ). These will be detremined by future parliaments. 

Anonymous8 is technically correct regarding norouz - solution?

The history of Norouz is synonymous with Zoroastrian traditions, so is Yalda and others  in the Iranian culture.  However, since the introduction of Islam to Iran, I think that holidays such as Norouz are celebrated religiously mainly by Zoroastrians (a few more minorities maybe).  And to many of us, it is a huge part of our culture that makes us unique from those who tried to change us.

So, Anonymous8, I hear your concerns, but consider how much of your Norouz celebration was religious versus pure Iranian joy of the arrival of a new year, filled with the preparation of the haft-seen table, khaaneh-tekaani, chaahaar-shanbeh-suri, the fish bowl, samanoo, going around to see relatives, taking holidays, ........ capped by the seezdeh-be-dar picnics.

Oh, my Mom always snuck a Quran in the haft-seen table because of her beliefs, and put the softeh bills inside the pages for good luck.  That is all I remember from the religious part of Norouz. 

Nonetheless, Anonymouse8 has a valid point that needs to be considered. 

One possible solution: The school districts in the US, in order to satisfy the principle of the separation of church and state, have winter holidays instead of Christmas holidays, so while officially it is called winter holidays, everyone else calls it Christmas holidays.  Similarly, instead of Easter holidays, we heard of Spring holidays.  In principle, we could come up with similar names, e.g., Spring holidays.  Regardless, the first day of Spring will always be Norouz to me no matter what you call it.

David, the intent is to address those who have helped hold this

up (beyond the key leadership positions which will end up dead, in prison or on the run anyway), and prevent them from leveraging their inroads or sneaking into the new system. I am also ok with relegating this to a different document but the status of the regime supporters at bureaucratic infrastructure level must be addressed and people will expect it.

here is the cleaned up version: All holders of key positions in the islamic republic may return to government & diplomatic service after X (20 or so) years; If not linked to, or under investigation in association with individual crimes including corruption or crimes against humanity.

MM and Hovakhshatareh

MM: Needs clean up but great work and start. I will  refine English version and revise article 2 . We have enough funds to translate preamble and 2 by now as a start.

Hovakhshatareh: I am not saying not to have it as an outside summary but I am prosposing complimenting it in the draft ALSO as most of the points are already summarized in Preamble and article 2 already. 

also I addressed a question in below comments that you probably did not see:

Can you explain your comments little more as it is not clear to me :

"-All associated with current regime (not directly associated or accused of a crime) excluded from any formal position for X (20 or so) years"

This seem to be to wide and many who lived in Iran one way or another were working in the official channels. On the first glance I think such matters must be left to future judiciary and the constitution should not be used to cause a blanket generalization that can be abused for settling scores by one group against another.

Thanks MM, I'll wait a day or so for any additional comments,

translate and post.

Anonymous8, I will refine but am still not clear on your point and its relation to my objective for this specific document. Turkey or Egypt problems are very different from each other and not a function of the secularity of the constitutions.

I fixed as much as could - could you fix the rest (#s, etc.)?

جمهوری سکولار ایران در احکام زیر استوار است

تمامیت ارضی ، استقلال و حاکمیت ایران
احترام به استقلال و تمامیت ارضی کشورهای دیگر و پیشبرد صلح با همه کشورها با دولت مردم ، توسط مردم و برای مردم
سه شعب دولتی مستقل از رئیس جمحوری، مقننه و قوه قضاییه با شرایط محدود و پاسخگویی کامل و شفاف
 بدون ادیان  و ایدئولوژی رسمی کشور
جدایی کامل دین از دولت در تمام سطوح ،  بدون استثنا
محرومیت  روحانیون ، گروه های مذهبی ،از احزاب و سازمان های دولتی
آزادی بیان ، اطلاعات ، رسانه ها و مجلس
عدالت و انصاف در قوانین
اجرای قانون اساسی ، قانون عادلانه و عدالت ازحداقل تضمینهای آیین دادرسی
بدون زندانیان سیاسی و زندانیان آگاه
حقوق برابر و فرصت برای همه
برابری جنسیتی
گارانتی کامل و حمایت قانونی از همه، سیاسی ، حقوق اقتصادی ، اجتماعی ، دینی و فرهنگی در داخل دهی شده از قانون اساسی
حفاظت و بهسازی محیط زیست

Norooz has Zoroastrian origin

as do many other iranian traditions. religion was very much a part of ancient iran and influenced everything. belive me you cant seperate religion from iran, unless you become like communists and change everything. as i said look at turkey and egypt and iraq and shah. it never worked.

my langage suggesion is to take out all your points trying to "exclude" religion, or religious "affiliates" or former regime people. this is not compatible with democracy and it will never work anyway. you should say be tolerant of all religion, not exclude some of them.

just my .02 cents.

Anonymous8, please provide a language that will express your

suggestion if it were to be included in this synopsis. The 'context' of a secular 'short list' of main items can be descriptive and part of the constitution. Perhaps I'm missing your point. Norouz is certainly not a 'religious' occasion as it celebrates spring (Vernal Equinox) even it has other wrappers around it that have been taken from greater culture that includes religion.

The intent is not to deny peoples religious tendencies or beliefs, rather protect the framework that protects their right to practice it, or not. And to ensure it does not suffocate minorities, non-believers, etc.

some big flaws

this has some big flaw.

does no "cultural reference to religion" include zoroastiran religion? so what to do with 7sin and names of days/months and many symbols of ancient iran. that seems impossible to be workable.

how do you "exclude" religious "affiliates"? who qualifies and who decides the borderline cases?

this idea itself is a flaw. it was tried in egypt and turkey, and by saddam hussein and by shahe sabeg himself. it always strengthened islam!!!

and who is "associated" with the current regime? like a teacher? bus driver? police man? fire man? banke melli worker? elected represetative? professor, engineer?

this will never work. even communists stood for election right after soviets fell. this will also cause a bloody civil war because system giving nobody in the current government any reward for breaking with it.

if you are right that most people don't like islamists then you don't need constitutional points to "exclude" anybody.

just some points for your thinking.

David, I think that works fine.

I would still suggest we keep this form as a general document and when people see it in the preamble it will be a familiar scene already.

An Idea

Preamble and article 2were intended to be the summaries of the constitution. So how about revising article 2 as follows ??(+/- any other suggestions):

(words in bold are new)

Article 2

The Secular Republic of Iran is a system based on beliefs in:

1. Territorial Integrity, Independence and Sovereignty of Iran.
2. Respect for independence and integrity of other countries and promoting peace with all nations and countries.
3. Government of The People, By the People and For the People
4. Three Independent Branches of Executory, Legislative and Judiciary of the government with limited terms and  full accountability and transparency
5. No Official Religions and ideologies
6. Full separation of Religion and State at all levels without any exceptions
7. Exclusion of clergy, religious groups, parties and organizations from government
8. Freedom of Expression, Information, Beliefs, Media and Assembly
9. Justice and fairness in legislations
10. . Implementation of the constitution, just laws and due process of justice 
11. . No political prisoners and prisoners of conscious
12. . Equal Rights and Opportunity for all
13. . Gender Equality
14. . Full guarantee and legal protection of all human, political, economic, social, religious and cultural rights within the scopes of the constitution
15. . Conservation and improvement of environment