Jahanshah Javid

Persian vulgarity often goes undeleted...

Salam JJ. I have noticed that while there has been a decrease in the sheer volume of English vulgarity on this site, Persian ones often go undeleted. I am not sure if you are addressing this or not, but please do not forget to screen persian (or fingilisi) comments as well.

How about the blogs?

Hi JJ,
I am a contributor on Iranian.com and I am starting to worry about the level of discussions and arguments on this site. The number of blogs that basically have nothing to offer besides having a catchy title using insults like bitch, slut, dick, etc...
I understand that some writer might feel pretty insecure about their blog and want to grab readers, but I think there should be a limit to it.
It has been making me more and more uncomfortable to write something here, not really because of bad comments. They're really not important and they shouldn't be the focus of this discussion about the quality of the site. But the quality of articles and blogs are the real issue for me.
I think the articles are the most interesting because they have been filtered through you, but the quality of the blog section is getting worse. Even if there are excellent articles and poems and essays among them, but they're like a few roses in the middle of a stinky swamp.
So I think this focus on comment is a non-issue.

why all the fuss?

Thanks JJ for removing my unnecessary powers! I was one of the ex-editors and life feels much better now. I didn't delete many comments, but I was sensitive about the use of bad language like words starting with F and sh and di..or farsi insults that had to do with mother and sister and poeple's spirit, etc, etc. But I published all other comments.
The only nice power I had and I miss it was the possibility of deleting my own comments!

But frankly I didn't have much time to spend on reading all comments and now I feel kind of relieved! I am sure any of the people who would like to have those powers would get tired of them very fast and after only a few weeks...
So why not offering this power to anonymous for a limited time (like one week or two)?

Ok people

Before things get ugly, let's move on. We're not going to solve this issue here and now. Some of the moderators are planning to write about this and you will have more opportunities to debate all the rights and wrongs. Thank you for all your sincere thoughts -- for now.

Back to work!

Akhavan I didn't post this blog

JJ posted this blog.  Besides did you know there were anonymous editors who were abusing the system? Is this blog the first you heard about it? This issue is not as important as our nan-e shab, but why are you here and not on some other blog or article?  You are here to just stop me talking?!

You have heard my comments over and over again? Many articles and blogs are about the same thing over and over and over again in this website.  Are you going around and telling everyone to stop? Write your own blog and talk about it.

Jahanshah jan,

I humbly think that people around you have a profound effect on your decisions. Therefore, try to add to your friends from different backgrounds. Add diversity to your circle. Diversity is always a good thing. That way you can look at an issue from multiple angles. I think you’ve been doing just that since the beginning. The discussion in here is caused by thinking that you might start drifting towards favoritism. Thanks and Regards, 

Further observation

JJ:

Thank you for publishing my comments. It has been an interesting discussion. Could someone please tell Anonymouse that we have heard his points of view on the subject (over and over and over again)? He will really need to stop now. This should also serve as my reason to rest my case.

n.zanincanadai, how does my being a retard excuse you from your behavior? I am just an anonymous reader, whose comments may or may not be deleted. This makes me try to write it in a way that it won't get deleted. As a contributing writer for the site, what is the reason for your entire stance and language towards others? Why are your posts being deleted?

Nothing is sacred ?!

For a web site with the slogan nothing is sacred, having editors besides yourself who could delete comments on a subjective basis is somewhat of a conflict wouldn't you say?

I do understand your situation and appreciate your position however, because for some reason we Iranians use vulgarity and personal attacks when we don't have something worthwhile to say.

Deletion is fair

Souri, comments should be deleted for a variety of reasons. People should be able comment on any blog or article if commenting option is available. Most comments don't get deleted.  Some of them do and vast majority of them are for good reasons.  Some slip through the cracks, like when JJ is sleepy or something.

Some commentators can be very vicious, vulgar or ruthless. We are not in a bad situation.  We're trying to go from a good to a better situation. This is my take anyway.

Anonymouse

Persian Westender

You are right.  The inability to separate people from ideas is not limited to just us Iranians. We experience more of it because we've never had a free society.

Here in America, land of the free, just see what has happened to this attitude.  Turn on Fox News and see how easily people are called traitors.  I don't recall the word "traitor" being used as much before Fox News.  When Bush came along he just established the culture where more and more people can be attacked and more rules disregarded.

This week FBI said they protested CIA's and DoD's interogation techniques. It used to be that agents would be afraid of the law and would not do something.  Then Bush and Gonzales crafted a "law" that made it possible.  Then some rednecks went overboard and did those things in Abu Gharib.  Then they said "those" were wrong but the rest is legal.  So they are not even afraid of the law anymore.  Who is going to question them anymore?  As long as they do it with the backing of the "law" which is in limbo really.  By the time Supreme Court strikes it down, like it did with Guantanamo detainees, they have done their deed and it was kosher.

This is just one example and I mean to say it is ok for people not to be able to separate people from ideas and attack them.  It is not ok with me, but when I see people do it, I am not surprised.  They are going to do it anyway. 

In this very website we have stuff for children, rated G and stuff for adults rated X.  We don't have too much flexibility or too much luxury of having separate yet interesting place to separate everything.  This is a mish mash of everything and it is ok to have it this way, just realize you're not going to satisfy everyone.  Have a sense of fairness and don't worry about the rest and discuss your fairness from time to time.

Souri

Although eveyone is talking about freedom of speech, this is not really about freedom of speech.  This is about fairness or at least the perception of it.  People are saying why there are no rules about deletions and why some vulgar stuff is allowed and others are deleted and so on and so forth.

Once there is a sense of balance and fairness we're all more satisfied and participate more openly.  If there is no or little fairness, well we'll participate anyway! What else do you want to talk about?  Politics?  Arab Israeli conflict? Ahamdinejad?  IRI? There is plenty of articles and blogs about them.  No one is forcing anyone to participate in this topic. This is just one blog among many.  So let's not discourage us from talking.

By the way when JJ addressed some as retards, he actually should have clarified that calling those people retards is an insult to retards.  As someone who deals on occasions with real retards (autism), retard is not a good word, it is like calling a black man a negro or worse.  There are plenty of airheads who advocate hatred and intolerance and use this website to spew their venum and JJ was refering to them.

The devil is in a dress and she is a he!

So come with me and take a walk on the wild side... JJ No, I do not think you are retard! May be limp but not retard! You make me laugh with all your tortured logic: So you are concerned with “OTHERS” feelings! Since when? Now, the real question is how limp can you get?

Regards

Specific suggestions JJ

JJ, if you say 90% of the visitors don't leave comment, then why not go to an all registered forum?  Of the people who leave comments, 90% are registered anyway.  Also in the past when people sent you letters that you published, didn't you publish their emails?  No published emails here, which is good.  I know in the early days you went to unregistered comments because number of comments dropped.  But those were back then and I think even registered users didn't comment that much either.

A lot has changed since then and I would suggest just to test it, go to an all registered forum for a while and see what happens.  It can't be any worse than giving powers to strangers to moderate.  You tested it and then changed it.  BTW was it your idea to give intoxicating editorial powers to strangers or someone else's? If if was you, never mind, if it was someone else I hope he/she is not one of the chiefs now!

Also, on this same suggestion, didn't you say early on that the new format will make this site less dependent on you and it'll free you from some of the stuff?  Now you're back to moderating 90% of the comments. You become the "single point of failure".  Inevitably you can't handle them all and some are even late being released.  So going to all registered will make it easier on you and there is that "report as offensive" button that users can use and point to the vulgar comments.

Second suggestion would be to give intoxicating editorial powers to contributors for their own contributions. It is not a big deal.  If someone doesn't want comments on his/her blog s/he can turn off the commenting option.  If s/he wants comments s/he is not going to delete comments just because they don't agree wih him/her.  The more discussion the better, plus if comments are deleted too much people can blog on their own, like Kaveh did.  So that is not the issue, although I know the argument have been used so often by so many that people will just delete comments that don't agree with them.  I just don't think that is going to happen.  At least not that much.

These 2 are my specific suggestions. 

Suggestion to the readers :

...

اينجا بوي پارتي بازي مياد ،ايرانيان دات كم هم مبتلا به اين بيماري شد ،خدا يه صبري به اقا بدهد.

Another possibility!

Another option that comes to mind, would be:

Only allow 'registered users' to arite comments. Each reagistered user would be allowed to write 'one' or 'two' comment per blog or article. This will reduce the number of comments, but it willbe much easier to control and will probably improve the quality of the comments left. Very oftenl the comments get very personal between two characters and just start getting away from the main subject.

I there's a limit on the number of blogs or articles one can write or publis (very reasonable) why shouldn't the same apply to the number of comments one can leave per blog or article?

I'm not sre if this is feasible, technically!

Regads

People and their ideas

I  believe a part of the problem comes from inability of some comentators in seperating people from their ideas, particularly when they get too emotional on the subject. Once, I left the following comment on a similar topic and I think it would be relevant to repost it here:

Recently, I have been more observer/participant of some online forums and web-logs which are designed to analyze social/political issues in Iran. More or less, I also have been observant of some other discussion forums in western culture.

Interestingly, and at the same time unfortunately, I have noticed that many Iranian respondents to different topics and issues (mostly political)  have a strange tendency to bash, insult, or accuse the author of the idea instead of the arguing or commenting the idea itself. Particularly, when the topic of discussion is issued by a known figure with a controversial and nonconformist political background, this tendency is aggravated; although the main idea could have nothing to do with author’s background. This worrying trend of bashing the author, instead of criticizing his/her point of view, is known as ‘Ad hominem’ fallacy, in which the author of an argument is attacked not by his argument, but by his characters.

While I can not claim that this trend is only limited to Iranian blogs, I have noticed that it is more prevalent in Iranian discussion forums (In Iranian.com seems to be less? You tell me!).

I would hypothesize that it might be a cohort effect for younger generation in which during 80’s and 90’s post-revolution in Iran, many of political presentations was based on accusations, slogans and dramatic manifestations in which lacked a rational process of argument. In other words, in our ‘political collective unconscious’ we as younger generation have seen many accusations within slogans or media propaganda; without seeing evidences, reasoning and justifications. We used to witness the defeating of ‘estekbare jahany’ means pouring in street and bashing it by zealous slogans. By this act maybe we learned, we can be exempt from engaging in any argumentative process to prove the case. Religious justifications in political context may also have enhanced this misunderstanding that we can be entitled for the accusations. When I say ‘we’, it doesn’t mean that we should have been necessarily participated in the process. By witnessing this trend the younger generation may have been affected and therefore associate any political expression can come with ‘ad hominem’.

I might be wrong and this is just a hypothesis, but whatever it is, this trend of responding to ideas (accusing the author by stigmas such as spy, servant, traitor...) unfortunately only makes hatred and disgust; reduces the argument to a displeasing engagement.

well holy freaking shit on a

well holy freaking shit on a stick! i've been looking for an example of some pretentious bastard who pretends he's much brighter than he is being followed by brownnosing sons of bitches! and lo and behold, here it is. "jj, good job with the sensoring of my mind. please don't allow me to speak freely or have thoughts and values contridicting with yours be expressed! I don't want to think what's ok to post by myself. please teach me, an adult individual, what is acceptable." honestly, for the nation with the first form of democracy, we're showing very little of that heritage in banding together to form change on our meeting place on the web. where the hell else are we to go online? it may aswell be a place where we can speak freely. jj, youre a cynical, sarcastic, somewhat dark- humored SOB, and under different circumstances i'd probably like you, but for christ's sake, you're the editor, not the center of attention. your headline of the homepage says "nothing is sacred". this means speak about whatever you want. not speak about whatever gets your approval. i'd also like to point out that this message, is not hateful, intended to be rude, or vicous. it is critical but that's not advised against by your majesty, so just post the damn thing.

tried and tested

Midwesty, for the first six months, anyone -- registered and unregistered users -- could leave any comment without moderation. Unregistered users abused it to such a point that many writers and readers were disgusted and stopped writing or visiting the site. More than 90% of the people who come here do not leave comments. They are simply readers or viewers. When they see that so much of the comments are filled with trash and hatred, why should they bother coming here?

How would you feel if the comments left on every one of your posts are filled with things like: "You're a mullah-lover jackass", "You're an idiot. Hope you drop dead", "Your English sucks. Where did you go to school? Abarghoo Community College?", "Marg bar shah and all zionist pigs...", "Based on your avatar it's obvious that you are a sports fanatic. Who gives you the right to comment about politics? Don't waste our fucking time with your pathetic ideas..."

Do you want me to go on? How long will you survive with these kids of comments? Very soon you would stop writing.

Initially I was most excited that iranian.com was going to be completely free. I ignored frequent arguments and advice against total openness. My position was that words are simply words and no real harm could come from any form of expression.

That is still my position. But it is not applicable in all places at all times. I mistook iranian.com with the Internet itself. Any individual can go and start a website of their own and do whatever they like. But should everyone be able to do whatever they want here?

If someone wants to curse all his enemies, get it published on the front page, and leave it there for an entire month, should I oblige simply because iranian.com's motto is "nothing is sacred"?

"Nothing is sacred" is a response to the Islamic Republic where so much is banned and suppressed in the name of god and religion. "Nothing is sacred" is a slogan, an ideal, a desire for a perfect world where all can be tolerated without interference from tyrannical laws, secular or religious.

There's plenty of stuff you will see here that you won't see in any other Iranian or non-Iranian site. Things that are sensational and educational and radical and satirical and informative and beautiful and ugly. But that does not mean iranian.com is a dumping ground for anything and everything.

If my editorial decisions or those of other moderators are too harsh and unreasonable, I hope someone starts a site where all the haters and name-callers and abusers can gather and beat each other to death -- like we have been doing in Iran since the dawn of civilization.

The key here is respect. If we as individuals start respecting (not accepting or surrendering to) those who simply have a different perspective than our own, eventually this tolerance will reflect in our culture and in our future governments.

Anyway... I honestly don't consider myself an expert in all this. I'm often frustrated and confused. I may be completely wrong, just as I have been on numerous occasions in my life. But hey... you're stuck with me for now. I just hope I'm getting better at handling this free speech business.

All your responses and ideas have an impact and make a difference. Mamnoonam for listening and participating and correcting me.

We Are a Little Soosool !!!

Every discussion on every site in the net has emotionally charged, and some would say, vulgar comments. Unfortunately, in an effort to make this site more "ba adab", JJ is making it very bland...and rather boring I may say. A couple of weeks ago, in response to one of usual Ben Madadi artilces I left a one line polite comment implying that subject matter of the article was not clear. The comment was deleted, much to my surprise. I think that this politeness thing has gone too far. I am rapidly losing interest in the site, and don't visit it as much any more.

Good Night!

Good Night!

Censorship is an insult to the reader's intelligence...

Think about it for a moment or two. Do you think the other readers can't take care of thoes people who start trashing the site? For how long you think junkies can generate junk? Yes, it will be chaotic sometimes but the positive results of giving freedom outnumbers the negative ones compare to having clean but lame results. I am not insisting on my opinion. You asked me to explain myslef and this was it. 

A note to Akhavan

Akhavan in DC:

I think JJ just apologized to you. Flirtation THAT my man.

Are yoy kidding ?

Are you kidding or are you serious JJ? Why did you become suddenly  so aggressive while everybody is so nice to you? I can't get it. Hope you are joking this time

Apology

I sincerely apolgize if I ofended any retards on Monday. See "You're a Dick"

on a seperate note..

JJ, i think you need to appologize to yur readers for comments yu wrote on mon.

There must be SOME deletion

Midwesty, the point is about SOME deletion.  It is not just some people attack a writer, it is about some people use other blogs and articles and start fighting with each other, not with the contributor.  Then they take their fight to other articles and so on and so forth.   Soon there is Iran Iraq war.

So there must be some organization and some users blocked.  We're not living in a perfect world.  You are right we can't define all the good and the bad.  So we go with someone we trust, like JJ.  Or they can be elections and we elect another velayat-e faghih, just kidding!!

As long as JJ or our elected trusted super editor does 90% or more of the editing and does NOT tell us this and then the 5 or 6 other chiefs do 90% of the editing, then we're ok. Forget about setting bounderies.  JJ has brought us here, he can take us from here too.  He just slipped on that one occasion of the so called moderation policy, but he realized it and corrected it.

For example, this guys Akhavan is singing abu atta! Should we just let him to continue singing?  Why not, why the heck not?! Let's hear a word from mother of the bride too!!

May be , one of the editors can help..........?

 I Joined trusting the site kinda. The dilema is that the person who called me a "Lunetic Idiot Zionist" on my Blog might as well be the one deleting my fair & civil comment on another thread.I kinda have an idea where JJ stands on issues...but these other editors.... Imagine if  Mullah Hassani or Kim il sung is a blogger editor here!!  Would He have mercy on my comments Criticizing his/her comrades no matter how polite(which has happened)...A good idea would be to put a tag on deleted comments like this ""deleted per "name of editor" for profanity""" as an example. atleast it,s honest & transparent .  .....Staying mute and agreeing with everything belongs to Magazines online .Iranian.com is a community of sort with dialogue...so the comment section should reflect that.Just a thought.

cheers!

Mr. J.J. your doing just

Mr. J.J. your doing just fine. teach us how to communicate effectively and for what purpose. But one step at a time!