Iranian Liberal Democrat

Yes, MM. Anyone who

Yes, MM. Anyone who supports NIAC, intentionally or unintentionally or better yet, by default supports IRI and their reformers stooges proped up by CIA et al...

Any political party (JM) having different factions...

Only underlines it's own democratic political credentials. Otherwise what would be the difference between JM and other "cultist", centralised groupings, with tiny, yet highly vociferous -internet based- backing claiming to represent all kinds of people?

JM, (National Front), is precisely the kind of umbrella  organisation needed today to unite ALL opposition forces who share one key aim:

Replacement of the fascist islamist regime , with a truely democratically elected government by Iranians, for Iranians. Period.

I find these attempts of exclusion  and witch hunt of certain political groupings and individuals  like Masoud kazemzadeh who using his real name and identity choose a clear Political position (right or wrong, is a matter of opinion and has no bearing to argument) to Fence sitting, very distastefull, to say the least. 

Shotor savari dola dola ta key?

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."

PS Vildemose

I remember you writting: NIAC=IRI.  Did you mean to say that NIAC supporters are IRI-supporters?

I know you did not

That is why I asked what your vision for change was and I said " I hope it is not....."  If you have a better suggestion, I am all ears.

sorry, I did not mean to say that is how you feel, but I have gotten much much worse treatment here when someone like the shortened-Fereydoon accuse NIAC-supporters of being IRI agents.

MM: I just read the rest of

MM: I just read the rest of your comment.  I don't appreciate your accusatory tone. You know me well enough to know that I'm dead against war on Iran by anyone...However, you choose to win an argument by resorting to ad-hominem.  I am beginning to think that maybe MK is right about you...

I will not engage in a debate with you anymore. Keep on supporting NIAC.

Let the Iranian people decide how they want to achieve democracy. Don't shove what the liberal CIA agents/NGO's envision for Iran down on our people's throat..The way they did in 1979. 

MM: Your argument is a

MM: Your argument is a non-sequitur. I never said change should be in the hands of anyone else but Iranians. That is why I don't support Mojahedin, or NIAC. NIAC has ties with the Americans who want the reformers, the Islamic light, and as for  the MKO, who are Neocon's and likunik's mercenaries.

I don't see any difference between the two entities...Reformers=MKO, pehaps even worse..God only knows the extent of their plundering and pillaging.

Vildemose

I believe that changes in Iran should be Iranian-made, and not cooked up by some a$$-holes who do not care a bid about Iran or Iranians

John Bolton & Mojahedin in Paris | Iranian.com

I have a more drastic view of how Iran should be democratized (Practical path towards democracy), but unlike you, I see many deformers as true Iranians who want the same final goal of democracy for Iran, but with a different way to do it. That is why it is important to bring all democratically inclined Iranian groups together and agree on a course of action.  I have even read mammad say that the final push to get rid of IRI is a general strike, especially by oil workers, and that IRI will not go peacefully.

Neocons, the MeK, and the Fight Against Iranian-Americans

What is your vision for a regime change?  I hope that it is NOT precision guided (*) missile attacks by a foreign government, coordinated with a ground assult / terror by MEK!!!!

(*): 85% accuracy at best

MM: I don't care about

MM: I don't care about Trita. He has no credibility in my eyes...neither NIAC. Glad you posted that interview. Further indictment of TP as a de-facto supporter of the IRI minus VF...I do not believe in the reformers...period. They are part and parcel of the regime and have to stand trial as do the principalists...That is my opinion. No comprimse in my conviction.

Do you believe in reformabiliy of the regime??? Are you a reformer??

Vildemose - The goal, accor to TP should be Democracy for Iran

Vildemose,

The best way to answer your question is to listen to the interview that Parsi had with the Andisheh TV (part 7 of 10) //www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmPsT7KtzJQ&feature=player_embedded A PUBLIC FORUM STATEMENT, MIND YOU!

Here, Trita Parsi clearly states (part 7) that the concept of Velayat-e Faghih is incompatible with democracy.  And, in response to questions regarding regime change, TP stated: Regime change to what?  We tried that in 1979 and we got IRI.  TP goes on to suggest that if we weaken the IRI to remove the concept of VF and all the religious mumbo-jumbo, etc. from the constitution, that would be another way to bring democracy to Iran ---> therego my fully loaded statement on "IRI in its current barbaric form".

TP later on stated (private communication) that the final goal should be "democracy for Iran" in order to bring all democratic groups together, otherwise if you say "regime change", all these political groups start spitting contests (your way is bad) and pissing contests (my way is better), and we get all these infightings instead of concentrating on a common denominator: democracy for Iran.

In order to bring all these democratic groups together (my opinion), we need Iranians who are well known globally as human rights activists, e.g., Shirin Ebadi, Shadi Sadr, Nasrin ..... to moderate a civil discussion amongst all the secular democratically alligned Iranian groups.  And now, MEK is being shoved our throats as a democratic organization against IRI and they ain't no democrats, but as TP suggested "regime change to another dictarorship".

PS, the spitting/pissing contests are my words

Show one spot where NIAC

by Shazde Asdola Mirza on Mon Jul 04, 2011 05:38 PM PDT

by MM on Mon Jul 04, 2011 06:12 PM PDT

As I wrote earlier:

Here is a direct quote from an email that Trita Parsi wrote to Roger Stern that was from a link that "the professor" provided (//www.iranian-americans.com/docs/Negotiation.pdf) as evidence that Trita Parsi is an IRI agent

Page 6: Trita Parsi email to Roger Stern: …… “You are absolutely right when it comes to Iran’s support of terror and its human rights abuse.  Unfortunately, nothing has set back the democracy movement in Iran more than the current tensions with the US.”  …… 

Shazde Asdola Mirza
Tue Jul 05, 2011 05:27 PM PDT

Don't take me for a kid and my pen for some candy ... show me the proof. Email Keh Vaseh Fati Tomboon Nemisheh! Show me something on their website or anything public from 2002 to now. Hey in 10 years of writing, there should be at least one instance ... LOL

MM: NIAC wants IRI to

MM:

NIAC wants IRI to endure in her current barbaric form,

Please elaborate. This is fully loaded statetment...speaking with forked-tongue comes to mind.  Why does NIAC think we are stupid??

رابطه ایمیل و زیر شلواری فاطی خانم

‌ام ‌ام جان: تو میخواستی با یه خط ایمیل خصوصی اون حاجی ثابت کنی‌ که مبارزه و ضدیّت با رژیم میکنه. بنده محترماّ خدمت شما ذکر کردم، که یه خط تو ایمیل خصوصی نشانه مبارزه آشکار یه گروه بزرگ و صاحب نام، وب سایت و نشریه نیست (فاطی و تمبون). از طرف دیگر، حمایت پنهان و آشکار حاجی، و همکاری و دلالی جمهوری اسلامی، در ایمیل‌های ایشان کاملا آشکار است.

بنابراین، اگه آشکارا به رژیم حمله نکنی‌، نمیتونی‌ ادعا کنی‌ که با رژیم مخالفی.

اما اگه در خفا به اونا حال بدی و حمایت بکنی‌، می‌شه حدس زد که طرفدار شون هستی‌!

Where is your proof Shahzadeh?

And, now I would like to see proof from a public forum, as per your own words, that Trita or NIAC have said that they serve IRI and that NIAC wants IRI to endure in her current barbaric form, or that they want to kill MKO for IRI; No shady emails. 

As you said it to me a little while ago (Washington's Favorite Terrorists): "Don't take me for a kid and my pen for some candy ... show me the proof. Email Keh Vaseh Fati Tomboon Nemisheh!"

Proper stance on MKO

//iranian.com/main/blog/aynak/what-proper-stance-mojahedeen-khagh-delisting-efforts

Ari: I think MK had

Ari: I think MK had previously explained his membership and affiliation  in a different thread with the same links you have provided.

 I don't have the time to find it.  There was no attempt on MK part to be misleading or disingenuous.  I think we just don't know much about this organization. I did not assume, the real Jebeh Melli was JMnews.com

Why do you assume it's the real or the more authentic one?

dear MK

Your posts are always interesting to read and informative. May you continue despite the obvious challenges in this place . Thanks for the blog.

Masoud dear: thanks for all your great efforts

You are a true gentleman: "say it as you see it".

One other key aspect is to protect the right to freedom of speech and freedom from persecution, which should be granted to anyone who deserves it. I suspect that NIAC is trying to shut-up the Mojahedin and dispose of them, as a way to serve their IRI allies. Otherwise, there would have been no other reason for them to put so much effort into this DeListing affair.

دوست گرامی‌ شراب سرخ عزیز،

دوست گرامی‌ شراب سرخ  عزیز،

من قول داده بودم که یک مقاله راجع به سیاست‌های آخوند‌ها و بنیادگرایان (مخصوصا خمینی) در رابطه با دلا یل مخالفت‌شان با شاه و آمریکا بنویسم.  سعی‌ میکنم که هر چه زودتر این مقاله رو اینجا "پست" کنم.

با سپاس فراوان از تمام محبتهای  جنابعالی.

مسعود

...

کاظم زاده جان،پارسال قول دادی که یک سری مطلب در مورد وقایع ۲۸ مرداد (به زبانِ پارسی انشا الله) بنویسی‌،همچنان منتظریم برادر جان .

با سپاس از تو که این همه زحمت میکشی.

Exhaustively frustrating to debate with MK

Thank you dear Ari, as always we can count on you to provide accurate, relevant and important information. Many thanks.

Thank you dear Shifteh, not only for all your efforts in bringing Iranian opposition news and event to us so tiredly but also in responding to MK nonsense of NIAC=MEK with such balance yet conviction. So many of us tried and failed only to give up and ignore Mr. MK. I am very happy to learn what it has been reveal here as I have much respect for JM and was dumbfounded by MK not so covert support for MEK and relentless distraction from this issue.

The fact remains that this fight is not about NIAC but about legitimization of MEK, a treasonous group with the same ideology and political doctrine as IRI if not worse.

'Vahdat' is the main key to victory 

Mehrdad

For Ms. Ansari on Questions about JM

Dear Ms. Ansari,

SA: What is Jebheh Melli's position vis a vis Mojhaedin-e Khalgh Organization? Are they considered trusted allies? Does Jebheh Melli wish them to be de-listed? What is their stance on NIAC? Are they JM's worst enemies alive?

MK: You asked excellent questions.

Let me provide full answers to your questions including nuances and caveats.

JM = Jebhe Melli Iran

INF = Organizations of Iran National Front-Abroad

MK = yours truly

JM and INF are democratic organizations. We are a coalition of parties and individuals. Our official positions are arrived at after debate and a vote. Even if a member disagrees with the vote (view of the majority), our members have the right to hold their own views and express them and try to change the views of other members. An organization may not have taken a vote on a particular issue.

I. What is Jebheh Melli's position vis a vis Mojhaedin-e Khalgh Organization?

JM: To the best of my knowledge, JM has not published any elamieh on the PMOI. I can, however, tell you that JM is strongly opposed to the PMOI’s ideology, leadership, history, and policies.

INF: same as above.

MK: In my own publications, I have made very harsh criticisms of the PMOI. For a brief version, you may read it here:

//iranian.com/main/2008/fatal-attractions

II. Are they considered trusted allies?

JM: The JM does NOT regard the PMOI as an ally.

INF: same as above.

MK: I do NOT regard the PMOI as an ally. As long as they attack the terrorist regime, my position is that we should ignore them. If the PMOI attacked us, then I will attack them back.

III. Does Jebheh Melli wish them to be de-listed?

JM: JM has not issued any elamieh on this.

INF: INF has not even discussed this issue. INF has totally ignored this issue.

MK: I have written my views fully in this blog:

//iranian.com/main/blog/masoud-kazemzadeh/causes-and-ramifications-de-listing-pmoi-u-s-state-department-s-ftos-list

My views have not changed. My view is that the biggest loser of de-listing is Khamenei and the VF regime. In my opinion, also NIAC would be a big loser. In my opinion, the costs and benefits to the pro-democracy movement are minor. I think the pluses are higher than the negatives. In my opinion, the reformist factions of the fundamentalist oligarchy would also not be harmed or benefit much. In sum, in my opinion the advantages outweigh the disadvantages in de-listing.

If there was no such a thing as NIAC, I would NOT have written a single word on this issue. In my opinion, NIAC is an issue. In my opinion, anything that would make NIAC weaker, is good.

IV. What is their stance on NIAC?

JM: Most of them have never heard of NIAC.

INF: We have never ever held a discussion about NIAC. My guess is that our members probably do not think that NIAC matters at all in Iranian politics. One top INF member told me in a phone conversation that he believes (in his opinion), NIAC was a lobby for the VF regime.

MK: In my opinion, NIAC is an enemy.

V. Are they JM's worst enemies alive?

JM: Actually cholesterol is the worst enemy for some of the members. On a serious note, as I mentioned aabove, most JM members have never heard of NIAC. JM’s position is that the VF regime is the primary obstacle to the establishment of democracy in Iran. JM strongly opposes the VF constitution. JM strongly considers the vf constitution to be anti-democratic and the cause of almost all the main problems in Iran.

INF: INF regards the VF regime to be the primary enemy of Iran. INF wants to replace the ruling tyranny with a democratic secular republic.

MK: In my opinion, the VF regime and NIAC are the primary enemies of Iranians who want to replace the ruling tyranny with democracy.

If there is any nuance I missed and you want clarified, please do not hesitate to ask.

Best,

Masoud

MK, so when were you going to tell everyone...

...that your views represent the views of a "faction," and not of the JM that folks have in mind? It seems discourteous to the reader that you waited until you were flushed out before revealing this important fact about your affiliations. You had us all confused for a long time.

Shifteh's questions still hold, however.

In view of this "faction" you belong to:

What is the position vis a vis Mojhaedin-e Khalgh
Organization?  Are they considered trusted allies? Does your "faction" wish them to be de-listed?  What is their stance on NIAC?  Are they your "factions"'s
worst enemies alive?  

Intro to Internal Politics and Factions of the INF and JM

Dear Vildemose,

There are two JM factions in the U.S.

1. One is called Sazemanhay Jebhe Melli Iran Kharej az Keshvar. I am a member of this JM. It was founded by Dr. Ali Shaygan in the early 1960s when he came to the U.S. Among those who founded Sazemanhay Jebhe Melli in the U.S. along with Dr. Shaeygan was Dr. Mohsen Ghaemmagham. He is still a leading member of our group.

Our website in the U.S. is

//www.jebhemelli.net/

Our official website for all our chapters is:

//www.iranazad.info/

the website of our chapter in Germany is

//www.jmiran.de/

Our group tends to be a broader coalition.  Most of us tended to be liberal democrats and social democrats.  Most of our members were allied with Hezb Iran, the Third Force, and the Socialist Party (led by Dr. Khonji and Dr. Hejazi).  In the past 4 years many members of NAMIR (supporters of Dr. Bakhtiar) have joined our group. The site that includes all of our close friends is

//melliun.de/

We have close relations with other pro-democracy groups such as the Iran Liberal Party. Their site is:

//www.iranliberal.com/

==============================　

2. A second faction is

//www.jminews.com/news/fa/

The site is owned by Mr. Bijan Mehr. 

Initially this group was the supporters of Admiral Dr. Ahmad Madani. Later on the group called Jebhe Melli Iran (Washington DC chapter) joined them.  They tended to be close to some monarchists (e.g., Hezb Mashrooteh).

===========================

Over the years, 3 individuals who were members of our group left and joined the other group.

And some of memebrs of the other group left that faction and joined our group (the most famous being Dr. Mehrasa).

As a rule, our faction tends to ignore the other group. But Mr. Bijan Mehr of the other group likes to make harsh attacks on us about once every few months. As a rule, we ignore them.

Members of our group have made serious criticisms of Mr. Koroush Zaim. 

The Congress in Germany that I placed the reports on which at this site were OUR congress and conference. The other faction (Bijan Mehr’s) attacked us.

================================　

Inside the Jebhe Melli inside Iran there also exists a split.

1. On the one side is the no. 1 leader of JM (Adib Boroumand who is the Chair of the Central Committee and the Chair of the Leadership Council). The no. 2 leader of JM, Dr. Mousavian (Chair of the Executive Committee). And Mehdi Moayedzadeh (member of Central Committee). Close to this faction includes most members of the Central Committee.

2. The above leadership group is challenged by Mr. Koroush Zaim, Mr. Jamal Doroodi, and Ashkan Razavi.

=====================================

My group is closely allied with and strongly supports the JM Leadership in Iran (the first group inside Iran).

The other faction has been very close to Mr. Zaim.

I hope this is helpful.

Best,

Masoud

Thanks Ari. Excellent links.

Thanks Ari. Excellent links. Good investigative work.

vildemose

There is only one JM. There is nother organization called "Iranian National Front-Organizations Abroad" (Which held the event MK linked to in his IC news article). But going by the JM disavowal of their conference, they're not recognzied by the official JM. I don't know if MK is a member of "Iranian National Front Organizations Abroad" or simply confusing them with the official JM. However, as a political scientist who analyzes Iran issues, MK is at at a disadvantage in not knowing that they are different organziations.

How many Jebeh Melli are

How many Jebeh Melli are there?

WOW Ari - would real JM please stand up! Here is message @site

این عکس توسط شخصی به نام بیات زاده در تاریخ 6 /11/2011 از به اصطلاح کنگره سازمانهای جبهه ملی به سایت خبری جبهه ملی ارسال شده است

Shifteh, this may help regarding MK

Regarding whether Dr. Kazemzadeh's views can be taken to represent official JM views, evidence shows that the answer is, "No."

This JM website article dated June 15 2011 refers to what the site calls a "so called JM congress" and disavows any connection with this group. The article includes a photo of this event which JM claims has nothing to do with them. Dr. Kazemzadeh, on the other hand has posted a news item on IC dated July 16 2011 with a photo link on IC which he states are from the JM congress. A comparison of the photos (disavowed vs. Kazemzadeh approved) show that they belong to the same June 10-12 event that JM has diavowed and Dr. Kazemzadeh has presented as authentic.

So, Dr. Kazemzadeh's views cannot be taken as the official position of JM for the purposes of poltical analysis because:  either Dr. Kazemzadeh represents a group other than the official JM (the one that JM disavows), or he is not in touch enough (with at least a one month lag)  with the official JM to know the organization's updated positions. 

Double-Standard

Dear Ms. Ansari,

First and foremost, I have a lot of respect for you. Your posts during the protests were truly fantastic and I have expressed my gratitude to you. You also have a very good head on your shoulder. Unfortunately, on NIAC vs. PMOI you are showing double-standard and hypocrisy.

SA: With all due respect, this is the second time I see you acting quite irrationally vis a vis NIAC and in favor of MKO. The first time was your dancing on the clouds with joy when Hassan Dai attacked Jahanshah Javid and Iranian.com, alledging that Iranian.com was the cyber army of NIAC. On that thread, you were so excited with Dai's presence and accusations, you forgot the very forum you have been using to express your own ideas. You had no regard for how unfair and dangerous Dai's libelous remarks were against Jahanshah Javid and Iranian.com.

MK: You are factually 100% WRONG. This is what I wrote:

//iranian.com/main/blog/afshinazad-8page6

3. I disagree with many of Mr. Dai’s views. For example, the document does NOT show that JJ did anything wrong.

Actually, my opinion of JJ greatly improved (it was already very high). The document clearly shows that JJ simply told NIAC officials how to register and submit articles.

JJ has on many occasions stated that he is sympathetic to NIAC. It is JJ’s right to be sympathetic to any organization he so desires. I disagree with JJ’s view on NIAC. But what is significant is whether JJ has done anything secretly that should be condemned. The answer is absolutely that JJ has not done anything wrong. JJ has shown that he is fair, HONEST, and decent human being.

In conclusion

1. Thank you Mr. Dai for exposing NIAC’s documents.

2. I criticize NIAC for its meetings with (and friendly e-mails to) the high-level officials of the TERRORIST regime. I condemn NIACis at Iranian.com for making personal attacks and insults instead of providing honest answers to questions.

3. I thank JJ for his integrity and decency. JJ jaan, thank YOU.

and additionally I added a whole blog expressing my gratitude to JJ:

//iranian.com/main/blog/masoud-kazemzadeh/note-gratitude-jj

========================　

SA: I am dumbfounded by your question. How could we even begin to compare the Mojahedin-e Khalgh Organization with NIAC?!!! The answer to your question is NO. I would not ask the IRS to look into the financial affairs of NIAC members, as they are not members of an organization on the terrorist list of this country. Their organization did not aid Saddam Hussein to attack Iran. They have not imprisoned a few thousand people inside a camp with militaristic appearances and brainwashing practices.

MK: I agree with everything you write about PMOI.

The question is on the terrorist regime and NIAC.

You know full well that the terrorist regime has killed more Iranians than the PMOI. You know full well that the terrorist regime (e.g., Khamenie, Mousavi, Karrubi, Khatami, Rafsanjani) are part of the system [Nezam Velayat Faqih] that has engaged in mass rape of female political prisoners and rape of male political prisoners since around 1980-81 or so. You know full well that the terrorist regime (just like the PMOI) also imprisons and tortures its own members (e.g., hard-line elements imprisoning the reformist members of the nezam and more recently supporters of Ahmadinejad).

The questions is are YOU willing to accept that the VF regime and the PMOI are both horrible?????? Do YOU believe that the terrorist regime is terrorist???? Do YOU believe that the terrorist regime is a horrible (fascistic) brutal tyranny that has to be send to the garbage can of history?

If you do not accept that the terrorist regime is terrorist and that it is not a horrible brutal tyranny, then you and I live on different planets.

If you agree that the terrorist regime is TERRORIST then the next questions are in regards to NIAC. Has NIAC engaged in meetings with HIGH OFFICIALS of the terrorist regime?

Has NIAC promoted policies that provide billions and billions of dollars directly to Khamenie and Ahmadinejad? Has NIAC pushed American politicians to meet various officials of the TERRORIST regime (e.g., Mashaee)?

In my opinion, the VF regime is a TERRORIST regime. In my opinion, NIAC has engaged in meetings with officials of the TERRORIST regime (e.g., Zarif, Soltanieh).

//iranian.com/main/blog/masoud-kazemzadeh/documents-relationship-between-trita-parsi-and-vf-regime-official

NIAC has pushed members of Congress to meet official of the terrorist regime.

In sum, if our goal is to change the VF regime with another system, then in my opinion our primary enemies are the VF regime and NIAC.

In my opinion, everything you say about the PMOI is true. But the PMOI is NOT attacking the pro-democracy forces. The PMOI is attacking the terrorist regime. At this juncture our primary problem that is murdering, executing, torturing, raping our people is the VF regime. At this juncture, we have to see what helps the terrorist regime and what hurts the terrorist regime.

In conclusion, YOUR double-standard is a sign of hypocrisy. YOU support the FBI to investigate the PMOI, but you do NOT support the exact same thing with NIAC. You are not willing to call for the exact same thing to see if those who are members of NIAC or those individuals who have given money to NIAC are in any way connected to the no. 1 TERRORIST entity in the world, the terrorist regime that has been murdering, torturing and raping our people.

WHY you do not want to find out whether those who give money to NIAC have any connections to the TERRORIST regime??????????? An investigation by FBI, Homeland Security, and other law enforcement agencies should be able to find out. YOU ask for one thing about one group, but not the exact same thing for another group. THIS is called double-standard.

=================================　

SA: You forget that in their core, they are an organization with ideologies just as horrible and dangerous as the Islamic Republic of Iran

MK: Actually I am NOT worried that the PMOI would assassinate any members of the opposition. You and I know for FACT that the terrorist regime has assassinated many many members of the opposition abroad (as well as many intellectuals and activists inside Iran). I want to know who the VF regime gives money to? Don’t YOU????????

Best,

Masoud

P.S. In the next response, I will provide answers to your questions.

Dear MK: with all due

Dear MK: with all due respect, I think you're getting a tad carried away...It does not reflect well on JM..Let the hatred for NIAC go? I know they have done a lot of damage but we need a bit of balance here...