Madonna-Whore Complex in Our Culture

Share/Save/Bookmark

Monda
by Monda
12-Dec-2009
 

If you find yourself interested in the title of my blog read:

//primal-page.com/madonna.htm

Last night I was at a holiday dinner party when I noticed the grim look on Sophie's face. She texted me from across the table to go outside for a chat. We found a shelter from the rain, lit our cigarettes, and then she spoke as a tear glistened on her cheek below the dark circles around those usually vibrant dark brown eyes.

"What's wrong?” I asked. “I've been meaning to ask you all through dinner."

“You know Monda, Farid and I are breaking up. He says he just cannot for the life of him figure out who I am to him!”

I met Sophie through my Human Sexuality professor in my third year of graduate school. She is an accomplished human rights attorney who financed her education through exotic dancing in an established SF club. The topic of discussion in our class was the impact of legalization of prostitution on psycho therapeutic models. Sophie was there to educate us about her most personal information as it related to our field.

After my research paper was completed Sophie and I kept our contact.

Twice a year we have lunch or dinner. Two years ago I found out that she was in a committed relationship with an Iranian-American man for four years at that point. Farid was, Sophie and I acknowledged, one of the essential topics of our conversations each time we met. Not only because he and I shared a similar background because of our nationality but also because he turned out to be of a family whose values I was very familiar with. Farid’s sister was an old friend of my cousin's.

During our lunch last summer Sophie talked to me about the possibility of moving in a house with Farid, which however was not intended to lead to marriage. Things were good because of the nature of their relationship and their professions. And as American as she is, the expression “sari ke dard nemikoneh chera dastmaal bebandi?” made sense to her as she gave me her big bright smile with many dimples around it.

Sophie could not be a mother, so that was that – for her anyway. Farid, on the other hand, was a different story. I well knew, I shared with Sophie, that he was raised in a prominent, traditional Iranian family.

I explained to her my perspective of Farid’s family values and even cautioned her about some of his probable cultural dilemmas, even after 34years of living outside of Iran.

Our discussion of Sophie’s serious decision process regarding her cohabitation with Farid, somehow led to how she and Farid communicated sexually. I was specifically curious about how Farid related to his lover’s exotic dancing background. This opened a very sincere and bonding discussion between us. Sophie admitted to me that many times over the years she has found herself baffled by Farid’s mood swings after what she considered the most satisfying sensual/sexual experience. She had trouble figuring out the reasons for his silence, withdrawal, and loss of connection with her –immediately after they had the most fabulous erotic experience together. It was not about either partner having had a long day, feeling physically exhausted or having to immediately tackle other tasks.

Thus we explored the topic leading us to some conclusions, a few of which are as following:

Most men of Middle-eastern and Mediterranean backgrounds are inflicted by this dichotomy: lover versus woman as their mother. A woman, in their unconscious male psyche, cannot represent both ideas. This may explain why the sweet wordsand gestures stop flowing toward a woman once she has had sexual encounters with a man.

Share/Save/Bookmark

Recently by MondaCommentsDate
Dance in Iranian Movies
4
Jun 17, 2012
Mellow
12
Feb 08, 2012
Sing for You
3
Jan 17, 2012
more from Monda
 
Monda

Rendd jan I agree we are in a transitional phase

by Monda on

I already notice in my daughter's generation, a much more defined, relaxed boundary around relationships, than people in their 20's and certainly 30's.  

I would not at any given point Only look at a person from a certain "complex" standpoint.  Neither does Sophie. As I mentioned this blog topic was among many other conclusions that we approached, relative to her breakup with Farid.

I also agree with you that relationships are as complex as the partners who create them.  There is no way to simplify factors.

Thank you much for your comment. 


Anahid Hojjati

Dear HollyUSA and Monda, this is such an interesting thread

by Anahid Hojjati on

 

Dear HollyUSA, thanks for your comment.  I find this blog and its comment thread vey interesting.  I wish I had more time today to dedicate to it.  I have to preapare to go somewhere but I thank Monda for her blog and I also liked Holly's comment where she wrote to Divaneh about how some men can be considered whores.


Rendd

Monda jan,

by Rendd on

Thanks for your blog.

Just on the side note, and this might not be too related to this topic or it might, but since you wanted more inputs from the male readers here is my 2-cent:

For thousands of years men been expected to play the role of alpha character, the bread-winner of the family, the fighter, the protector and the list goes on and on.

During past decades the whole dynamic of manhood has been dramatically changed. Still the society, the law and the changing culture is totally confused about the whole thing.

We know one thing though, that the modern women are born and they have much different expectations than the previous generations.We are at the transition junction and men simply need more time to find out what's going on.

BN's input might be right for the first couple of months of the relationship and it can be a deal breaker at that time, however him, choosing to move forward with his relationship makes clear that he has moved on from his possible initial perception about the Whore side.

Lasting in a relationship that long adds much more complexity to the relationship than simply looking at it from a small opening of Madonna-Whore paradox.

Thanks

 


Monda

IRANdokht jan, your link is so Hilarious!

by Monda on

I just sent it to Sophie, bet she'd get some good chuckles like I did :o))


mannya2001

if love isn't coming to you, then you should go after love

by mannya2001 on

i have heard many in persian diapora complain that they really wish to get married.  Many truly wish for a monogomous lifestyle with a person who is middle of the road; neither liberal nor very traditional.

even though it might be a very hard thing to do, people need to ask themselves what am i living for.  is my job really worth it?  what good is having all the money that i don't even have the time to spend?

if you haven't had luck with love in the diaspora, maybe you should have some confidence in yourself and make a courageous decision.  yes, bid farewell to your old life and start anew.  maybe you should change your location, move away, even if it means saying goodbye to a prosperous yet empty life.

maybe, you should move back to Iran.  But my freedom, you ask. well, like they say, you can't always get what you want.  continue your life as is or make a change.  it's your life, make it happen!

best of luck


mannya2001

Stay Traditional- Spare Yourself the Agony

by mannya2001 on

Get married to a person you love or one that your qualities match closest to.  Do it the traditional way.  This GF/BF business has led to a life of depression, lonliness and depression for many in the West.

Even in big cities like London and NYC, with all the glamour and lights, millions are going to bed each evening feeling unloved and lonely.  They then decide to adopt a pet to make their lifes a bit more colorful.

Big match making sites are now little by little adopting Eastern methods which looks for compatibility more than anything else to make sure it works out. 

Unfortunetely, these the of stories with BF/GFs and love issues seem to me like things that should have been dealt with in your 20s and 30s.  Past 40s, if you are having these issues, you need to evaluate yourself and your life seriously before you become another stat along many in Western societies. 

I wish you all a happy life. 


gitdoun ver.2.0

Gf Material or Wife Material

by gitdoun ver.2.0 on

Farid and your friend getting a house together implies they've been dating for some time; maybe a few years. But i think Farid from the beginning  of the relationship, at the root, viewed your friend as Non-Wife Material. And yes despite the dozens of red roses he bought her and the hundreds of poems he wrote to her over the years still she was just GF material to him.  His reasons ? Only Farid knows best and i wont even venture a guess. But that's just the way it is some women are Gf Material and some women are Wife Material. (and this also applies to men as well)


IRANdokht

Monda jan

by IRANdokht on

I saw this Chris Rock show on TV yesterday and what he said reminded me of your discussion here.  Listen to his take on "strippers myth" and take a break from serious discussions :o)

Here's the link:

//www.metacafe.com/watch/683390/chris_rock_on...

IRANdokht


HollyUSA

Anahid jan...

by HollyUSA on

You hit the nail on the head. I absolutely agree with everything you said in your comment. What's funny is that men choose to hang on to the theories about women's views/feelings regarding love and sex as it suits them. When they fall short, they use the theory that men and women are just different on the subject to excuse themselves, but when confronted with women who CAN just enjoy sex without all the emotional hang ups, the woman's 'behaving like a man' becomes a crime and she's no longer considered marriage / relationship material. (I'm not saying ALL men are this way, but a considerable percentage are and more so in traditional/conservative cultures).

Monda/Princess:  The reason I asked the question about the'quality of performance' of Princess's friend's partners was exactly because I would imagine that a woman who is no longer bound by the cultural views on sex and the traditional woman's role, could very easily and understandably choose to walk away from a potential partner that isn't satisfactory in that department. It can be just that simple and the physical aspect of a relationship plays a major part in its sucsess or failure. But I do agree with Monda that if that is not an issue, any number of underlying unresolved matters can contribute to a man or a woman's inability to reach a level of attachment and intimacy. I also agree that women who have had terrible emotional experiences with men could easily 'switch off' after a sexual encounter so as to out a stop to further emotional attachment and thereby avoid any pain that they associate with it based on experience.

As to Divaneh's comment regarding 'x-whores':  You know Divaneh, if you take out the monetary factor, and go based on the number of partners/encounters or the absence of an emotional attachment in the sae encounters, a heck of a lot of 'respectable' Iranian men can be considered whores. Except when a man does it that's not how he is viewed by society. I have a good male Iranian friend with whom I have been friends since childhood. He is very handsome, stable in every way and could have probably married anyone he wanted. He is very happily married to someone with a similar background to Sophie's going on 7 years now. She is an absolute angel and her morals would put a lot of people to shame. And my friend to whom she is married was born and lived in Iran into his 30's. You really have to consider a person's core and character and their circumstances before you start name calling. i.e. don't be so Divaneh!

 

 

 


Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez

Marriage material.......

by Natalia Alvarado-Alvarez on

Some time ago an Iranian friend of mine told me that he did not marry his girlfriend of many years because she was not marriage material.

Never mind that the woman moved several states to be closer to him. She apparently finally gave him an ultimatum of Marriage.

He decided not to marry her. What I found amazing is that he has several advanced degrees and should have  known after the first year if she was so called marriage material.

I know in a couple of days and at times hours of speaking with a man if he is marriage material or not.

 

 

 


divaneh

Never trusted that bajenaghe naghi

by divaneh on

I always thought that bagenaghe naghi had blood on his hand, mercilessly executing female adulterers. But still thinks he came with one of the best theories.

I think like any other relationship this is about to end and she tries to find a reason and search it in her past. There are many men who would not trust an x-whore and their self-protection does not allow them to form a relationship with such person, but not that guy Farid. He has been in that relationship for 6 years.

Could Iranian men get to terms with Madonna-Whore complex? I would like to exclude Farid and rest of the Iranian diaspora from that question as their mindset is now changed. Let’s include only Iranians who live in Iran. Have you heard of "Aab Tobeh" (Repentance Water).


Monda

Cheers to You AK69!

by Monda on

You make lots of sense to me.  Thanks for your comment.

I need to run off to the pool.  I shall return in a few. 


Monda

maziar 58

by Monda on

If I go along with your line of reasoning that All Men are Pigs, then All Women are Either Mothers Or Whores.... Back to Square One keh baba :o)


NOT_AK69

The Wife Qualities or Material Qualities Thereof

by NOT_AK69 on

The Wife Qualities

The “wife qualities” for men are no different than the “prince charming” qualities for women. The qualities, collectively, is the idealized women for a particular man. We do not all have the same version thereof, but all have A Version; Man or Woman, conservative or liberal degrees being individualized and not generalized.

As to prior assertions made by commenter’s that economic freedoms (equality) afforded modern women allow for similar bifurcations of sex vs. love, I agree to a degree. It is a contributing factor that cannot be ignored, but that does not refute the feeling or attitude being present and tangible; nor, does its presence make it a sexist and antiquated contributing factor. I for one view women equally and view sex and love individually.

We are sexual beings (animals) at our core and we have highly developed complex cognitive abilities, to discern; I am thrilled that the XX’s have caught up with XY’s in understanding the difference between Love and Sex. There does not always need to be such an extreme reason as a Madonna or Whore or latent feelings of abandonment or neglect…. Sometimes if he rolls over and snores instead of cuddling he simply isn’t that into you or your toe nails are skanky or he just shot his wad and is about to blackout (natural chemical reactions in men). IMHO… of course

Cheers!

AK69


Monda

Anonymous you are spot on about GIGO!

by Monda on

However, I disagree with you - relationships are all Unique (assuming that describes your exotic).

The most basic of relationships is that of us with our family of origin. So many varieties within that small unit, let alone our relationship with our self and the world. 

In every realm, Truth sets us Free :o) 


maziar 58

.....

by maziar 58 on

thanks for the story,that's why jessica parker elevated to higher pay after playing in sex and...

women and men of every cultures run on the same page. 

enjoyed the quick response from BDM

you should end the conclusion with: men be from east or west or any where in between are all PIGS.         Maziar


Anonymouse

U get out of a relationship what U put in.Garbage in garbage out

by Anonymouse on

People think or say "I gave it my all". I don't know what a woman can give a man with whore-madonna complex. She can't expect much in return.

What can a man give to a woman with pimp-father complex? He can't expect much in return.

Bottom line a relationship is not exotic.  It is very basic and in order to keep it, I think we should keep it simple.  Being single on the other hand is exotic!

Everything is sacred.


Monda

Anahid jan, I'm with you!

by Monda on

Gender-specific arguments run rampant! Not only on iranian.com!

If anyone becomes interested they'd stick their head out of their imaginary box to investigate further on their own, don't you think?  Who am I to argue with a person's life experience here? :o)

I totally agree with you, due to the changes in the system (i.e. work force) - relationship dynamics have been adaptive. Going from partner to partner works for some people, and not for others.  Any gender, any culture.

No judgment - only hope that collectively we get better looks at our beliefs.


Monda

Q

by Monda on

Unfortunately materialism is most integral in cultures, globally.  We can only work on our perceptions.  How much do we really need to stay sane?


Monda

Princess here's my take on therapy

by Monda on

It's Not for everyone!  It takes commitment, genuine interest in resolve of issues, as well as the therapist one chooses.  Commitment and interest in finding resolutions, as you know, are related to a person's functionality.  Often times a person does not realize how certain unresolved issue(s) may have impacted their relationships and other areas of their life. 

Once my working alliance is in place, upon client's readiness I bring up insights. Mine or theirs. Depending on client's background, together we relate our insights to their specific cultural and personal components. To see where it goes, what it does for that person's core beliefs.

What is done with my insight, or often theirs really, is completely up to that person. So yes with some clients, when appropriate, I bring up explanations, the reactions vary from disbelief (even anger at my suggestion) to calmly taking it in.  In either case we revisit them later*. 

Not until a person is genuinely present with the idea though. My job is to mirror their sense of intrigue, just as a mother holds her baby's - so they can pinpoint possible trust-related areas they'd like to work on.

* Unless they decide to leave therapy.  


Monda

HollyUSA, you brought up very good points

by Monda on

(In men And women) If a person has perfectly good sexual encounter, would they treat their partner with inconsiderate behavior?  Holly my answer would be a definite maybe, for both genders.  Here's my reasoning:

-  If a person has unresolved core issues with attachment, depending on the extent of those issues, they would show very confusing reactions to any act of bonding -- especially sex. Simply because they are confused about the intension behind any act of bonding, read TRUST.

-  Women can have tendencies such as the ones bajenagh naghi mentioned, based on their attachment qualities with their primary caregivers. However, our society looks at those as pathological. Whereas even in this day and age, even in "some advanced" cultures, men's positions are still let unquestioned/unpathologized.

Scandinavians have done nice research on this topic.  There are purely democratic bases for research producing sensible outcome (to you and me anyway) within the Scandinavian cultures.  I believe as far as gender studies go, as far as I know, those societies are the most advanced, both ideologically and practically. 

Your other point is also fascinating - about Sophie lacking the "wife material" quality that Farid seeks in a woman.  I am very interested in reading our male participants' thoughts on your question.  

 


Anahid Hojjati

How women have been duped by logic similar to "Bajenagh" 's

by Anahid Hojjati on

 

Dear Monda, one of your readers, "Bajenagh naghi" had a comment with following exerpt:"Men and women view and experience love and sex very differently. For women, I have been told, love and sex are intertwined. One without the other can be empty and non satisfying. On the other hand for men love and sex are two different and separate things. A man can have sex with a woman without loving her and enjoy it. He can hate the woman and still enjoy it!"

Not to pick on Bajenagh, he has not come up with this theory on his own.  I am reading some relationship books and almost all of them repeat this.  But when you think about this theory, it is sexist and out-dated.  As women are starting to have more freedom in sexual relationships, I venture to say that you will find women who can have sex without loving a man.  Basically this theory was true when women were not equal with men and were thought to be owned by men.  Therefore if a man owned a woman, she should have loved him and not dared having sex with any one else.  Meanwhile the man was free to have sex with as many women as he would please and then bring the excuse that just having sex with those women, did not mean he did not love his wife or girlfriend. 

This theory comes from the same mentality that executes women for adultery but punishes men to mere lashes.  Granted the execution is taking this theory to its maximum but believe me, when you think about it, theory stated by Bajenagh and printed in many relationship books is just a theory to give men green light not to be loyal to their significant others.  This theory is result of thousands of years of "mardsalari" and as "mardsalari" goes away in a society, this theory will be proven wrong. 


Princess

Interesting, Monda!

by Princess on

Very interesting. I don't know her that well to be able to say which one is the case with her, but I assume if it is the latter, she would need therapy, no?

Would men with the Madonna-Whore complex get over it with therapy?

 


Princess

Good question, HollyUSA.

by Princess on

I don't know. I presume so, but really don't know. I'll ask her next time I see her. 

 


Q

I can't imagine what it must be like now,

by Q on

before I met my second wife, I was "in the market" as they say for a couple of years.

I was shocked and surprised as to the changing standards of dating (we didn't HAVE dating!) and friendship. I found a lot of women super materialistic, while others were thinking more like men do traditionally.

Needless to say, to have a traditional marriage, which -- let's face it marriage itself is traditional these day -- you must work and dig a lot harder. Confronting cultural and "family" baggage was difficult enough for me as a "kherse gondeh" with some security, so I can't even imagine how bad it must be for young adults nowadays.


Monda

Thanks Shazde!

by Monda on

You are very correct about Sienfeld's depictions of the universality of mother-whore belief.  I simply blogged this topic because a) I found myself questioning this from my own cultural view  b) I promised Sophie I'd blog about it on iranian.com and she liked my idea. 

When a friend confides in me, I find myself in sort of a dilemma. I somehow feel I should at least think about her concern. Trust me, I will not lose sleep over their relationship, neither would she I bet.  In fact they have made an agreement to stay very much in touch until they become confident of their mutual decision about their breakup. 


Shazde Asdola Mirza

Monda jaan: this is an interesting piece and intriguing question

by Shazde Asdola Mirza on

It is sad that those two friends of yours, now have to face the cold realities of life, alone. However, as you know, break ups happen more often than not.

I wouldn't read too much into it, and perhaps you should discourage your friend to read too much into it too. It can result in some unhealthy feelings of guilt and anger, towards her lover and then herself, and then her lover and then herself, ..., till sadness and depression.

As to men of middle east or mediteranian being different from the western variety - well let's say, I wouldn't bet on it. Just see some episodes of Sienfield and be the judge yourself ;-)


yolanda

....

by yolanda on

 Hi! Monda,

         Thank you! Oh My Gosh, you know a lot of big words.......that is right you took that very special class. I just checked oxytocin and endometriosis on Wikipedia......so the lady is indeed infertile....so if Farid wants to become a dad, he really has to find someone else....

Thank you again for your blog!

Delaram Banafsheh (Yolanda)

"Cactus in the Desert"


Monda

A brilliant friend just noted:

by Monda on

Some of the male bloggers seem to miss the whole point of your write-up. Oh, well.
 
I have one question: Would you explain the presence of the same complex in men
who were brought up without a mother, and exclusively by a father figure, by the
cultural transmission of the complex? Or could the feeling of abandonment by the absent mother contribute to the formation of this complex? Or both?

I think you summed it up beautifully.  If people here ask for explanations, I'd be happy to provide them with some information through the "object relations" lens.  Or You my dear are actually way more qualified to respond based on your preferred perspective. Thanks for your comment.  

 


Monda

Nur-l-Azal

by Monda on

You are right.  But I'm most interested in this mother-whore thing in Our culture or those cultures closest to ours.