Iran, the land of civilization and love

Dear Niloufar

mg

From a holistic point of view , of course Mousavi and figures alike can represent a step forward and be effective in creating the needed dynamic trends. I mean if we want the pressure gives to the right and viable momentum, we  must be flexible , recipient , cautious, wise and brave in availing our means in accordance to their functionality.

But my main point (which is in fact my great fear) is the blind and powerful force of masses that can be easily abused as it has been abused in different periods in our country.

Nevertheless, I strongly believe that some doubts have already rooted in the minds of our impulsive masses towards their blind beliefs and attitudes; but those roots are not so viable and vigorous. And I think it is the high time to nourish those roots from the most appropriate sources. Therefore I think Mousavi and figures alike should not be assigned as our main architects and designers in this way if we are going to have  some radical changes and live a better life in that great and fabulous country.

" Man az khuday toddeh ha mitarsam, man az khuday kocheh v bazzar mitarsam" This is one of my articles that surely will help you to know more about my devastating fear of religious dogmas and dogmatic leaders.

A big thank for your attentive contributions on this site and your  sensible views on the current situations in Iran.

We will win. Future is us.

PEACE

mostafa khan

i am going to make one last proposition...

seeing that moussavi minus god would be right man, would you not agree that he too represents a step forward? we all know that his weakness is his association with the theocracy. he is therefore likely to fail, precisely due to what you say. after that, perhaps a greater number of people are likely to back a truly secular leader? is he then not an agent of change? 

Peace

Dear Lady Rusta

mg

Thank you for you great and informing points.

I think if we can pave the way for a secularism system, then we should not be so worried about that efficient and potent herald to lead us to the right paths. In other words within a secularism system cogency and expediency will be the main drives and not the devastating emotional attitudes which are mostly charged by the sinister and blind religious beliefs.

Thank you again.

Dear Bijan and Mr Ghanbari

I am sorry that I am responding to this question with a few days delay. I didn't realize that this thread was still expanding. Thank you for all your kind words and also kudos to you for your great inputs. I must say that I have enjoyed and learned from ALL the comments, whether pro or against.

Bijan

You have asked me a question that I am sure must have preoccupied the minds of thousands of Iranian thinkers and activists over the last three decades and yet remains largely unanswered. To find the answer to this question we need to revisit the roots of our ills and be honest to ourselves. Iranians, like any other nation, are the product of their history. The political history of our nation over the last two millenia is rife with emotionally charged leaderships which were often brutally replaced by yet another emotionally charged leadership. This trend continued until the last century and the exceptions to the rule were a few and far between. Among the few leaders whose reigns were dominated by reason and not by romance was Reza Shah. He was a man with great but realistic visions for Iran and through his forceful as well as charismatic leadership he realized many of those visions. His son, on the contrary, had a romantic view of the future of Iran (beautiful ambitions but not very realistic) and his leadership style was not half as forceful as his father's- hence it fell apart against a forceful and charismatic foe (we may hate Khomeini but sadly there were millions who merely were absorbed by and attracted to his fiendish charisma). Nevertheless, giant leaps forward were taken during the Pahlavi era.  Now three decades later, Iranians are still looking for  (and indeed need one) forceful and charismatic leader. At this moment there is no one who could fit into this description. Mr Reza Pahlavi is beginning to gain the much needed charisma but he is not forceful enough, or at least he is not yet. But we cannot wait for a leader of such characters that I described above to emerge. In the mean time the Islamic Republic has began to follow a path that will lead to its implosion. We must take advantage of this opportunity and assist them in reaching that implosion. The way forward must be in persuading more and more clergy and pasdars to defect to the green camp. This divisory approach must be encouraged and assisted.  I will expand on this at a later time.

With regards

FR

Dear Niloufar

mg

First allow  me to thank you for your moderate mind that is charged by a strong feminine intuition. Your moderate way  of approaching the different things...

Dear Niloufar we have been suffering from our masses who unfortunately have always been the destructive drive within any movement and have easily changed the directions to the other way. I am talking about that dangerous and fierce God and his numerous Representatives who are hidden in the minds of our masses and can tempt them to change the way of the true prosperity( which is the way of logic and certain equations) to the way  of  the promised paradise and eternal salvation!!

As surely you know much better than I know, the structure of our society is still a religious structure; the majority of this intricate society are still  seeking their prosperity in the religious beliefs. Therefore organizing such a society for moving towards a true and certain quest is not an easy job whatsoever. Just remember that the 1979 revolution was not supposed to be an Islamic revolution; It was stolen by the astute Mullahs who had the unconditional support of the masses who were badly infatuated with God and religious beliefs.

Thereby I strongly believe anyone who is feeling a tingle for his or her nation and has this tingle in the wrong place of his or her body, is looking for something which has no similarity to democracy and freedom.

It is obvious that figures like Mousavi, Khatami, and Karubi are highly educated and informed people; therefore they know and have no doubt that the best way of securing the just and equality is the clear and guaranteed way of democracy.So, when they are sticking to the same  defunct and obviously hindering ideology (that have already caused enormous failures in our general philosophy towards our lives), it shows that they have no true crush on democratic thoughts and are just simulating the poor democracy.

And lastly, if you  ask me who are the best figures to lead us to the right paths of achieving the lofty democratic goals, I would say Khatami and Mousavi minus God and religion! And surely they would be  my first choice.

Bijan khan

the respect is mutual :)

perhaps i can try and respond by asking a question: is it the case that in every single historical change from theocratic government to secularism, there was a sudden and abrupt change or were there gradual steps involved?  from what little i know of european history, my impression is that the change occured with power moving from the church to the monarchy and eventually to a 'secular' parliament. some discarded both the church and the monarchy and some retained the monarch with some religious symbolism involved. 

mostafa alludes to the role of the 'economy' in all this. it is an interesting point, and i hope he will be able to let us know how this might manifest itself in iran. i would suggest that his political economy approach is perhaps more helpful in analysing the situation than your 'pain' analogy.

there is that apt phrase that comes to mind, one that is often repeated in bad movies just after someone is killed: 'nothing personal, it's just business'...

Peace

mostafa khan

thanks for your detailed response. i would not refute your main message at all, but was just pointing out some issues to raise the question of whether we should adopt a step-by-step approach to reaching our shared goals. Bijan saw exactly what i meant. If you agree with this suggestion, then we would more easily be able to accept the green movement - or Moussavi or Karroubi - as steps in the right direction.

the eternal question: revolution or evolution? perhaps the question is misplaced. perhaps the answer is evolution through mini-revolutionary steps.

i certainly do not claim to know the answer. but my intuition tells me that moussavi is indeed a step in the right direction. or at least: a useful tool for it, regardless of his own agenda.

as for god: let's take that one to another blog?!

Peace

Ms. Parsi

The lady I have always respected (most of the times in disagreement). Here again you voice ever so indirectly your belief that the reformed Islamism is a small step towards a secular (or shall we say “godless”) democracy. My contentions and beliefs have always been that theocracy can never be reformed into democracy. The only thing that such “reforms” accomplish is to pacify the rage and put a fresh coat of paint on a decaying and rotten structure. It will set back the attainment of the goal (if there is such attainment in the cards) by several generations.

It is my OPINION that a seriously ill patient, when he is in unbearable pain, will be much more attentive to learn about and consider a course of treatment than when he is sedated. It is just a matter of how to explain to the patient the benefits of the treatment so he would cooperate. Without his cooperation the treatment will not be effective. And, for sure the treatment cannot be administered by force.       

NILOUFAR KHANOM

mg

Yes, when you have such big and beautiful eyes on possibly a wide and genuine face, so you have to be so meticulous and perhaps splitting...

God for me is just knowledge and wisdom. I  do not really know what the God is; but whatever it is ( True or false) it is a beautiful belief. Therefore we should not reject any beautiful thing just because we can not be completely convinced about its existence. Albert Einstein was the most rightful human being to deny the God, but he did not although he never pictured the God in a specific shape of existence. And of course I am strongly against any kind of  role for such a God when it comes to  the certain act of managing a society.

As to your second point, I should say democracy is a quest and not a notion and thus it will  be achieved through a long  process. So what you felt as a hasty attitude towards democracy in my article is completely wrong. my desperate rush comes from the precious years that we have already wasted. World to-day is rapidly growing and changing and as a matter of course economy is in fact the main drive within the structure of  a democratic quest. therefore if we lose any more time then  we will have to go a long long way to get what we want. At the present time our countrie's economy can not afford the expense of undergoing the  lofty democratic changes and reforms in  a short term.

And about American and their God I have to say if you see priests and churches are free to interfere with political  issues and other main decisions for Americans, then American have their God still wandered on the streets! 

And lastly, of course the true democracy and freedom are romantic. Are not they? life itself is a fantastic romance if we understand the necessities of time and live it accordingly.

Thank you for your wise points.

mostafa khan

interesting blog and discussion. two points i wanted to raise with you:

first, you appear still very 'god minded'. do we need any gods at all? this refers to your first paragraph.

second, you describe the current situation as the last chance for freedom for our children (in your last para). I understand the frustration, but what makes this situation, as you put it:

زمانه زمانه ایست بسیار حسا س و سرنوشت ساز؛ مبادا که اجازه دهیم رندان مذهبی آخرین فرصت آزادی و رهائی را از فرزندان ما بگیرند.

i hope you don't think i am splitting hairs. the point is: a step-by-step approach or a revolutionary one? you seem to press for the latter. and in doing so, you appear to paint a rather romantic picture of 'democracy and freedom'. did the americans take god back into their homes yet?

Peace

Excellent Blog

Gread read from all below. Thank you Farah, Khar, Bijan and Mr. Ghanbari for your great observations.

Dear Bijan AM

mg

Thank you for your  passionate  comment and your ardent views on the subject.

Surely we will win. future is us.

WOW.....

It is so refreshing to read the exchanges on this blog. I feel elated to see people that I find so close to my beliefs. Mr. Ghanbari, your blog is so to the point and accurate. When it comes to Mousavi and the likes, the old expression that says ”Khar hamoon khareh, paaloonesh avaz shodeh”  is well suited (no insult intended to our “khar” poster on this thread). I say this mostly because of his (mousavi’s) criticism of the protestors for their slogans that places Iran above anything else. Mr. Mousavi has still the same mind set and mentality as his emam did 30 years ago. The view that Iran can burn in hell and is nothing without Islam.

   FR, I love you for what you stand for. You are one hell of an intelligent lady who makes a lot of sense and speaks my mind a lot more eloquently than I could even dream of. My pain is understanding, or thinking of a solution that would get us out of this nightmare without getting us to a worse nightmare. I, without the slightest doubt, am convinced that our nation will see glory under a secular and democratic system of government. Benross’s points are admirable. We (the secular democrats) need to organize a systematic opposition. Whether such organization initiates within Iran or abroad is irrelevant. The point is that it has to be initiated and followed. Whether Reza Pahlavi is a starting point or not is very much debatable. The key is how to propagate and sell secularism to the nation. What can we do out here to help with educating the ordinary and religious people in Iran?

 Should we start looking for venues on shortwave radio to broadcast the concept and convince people, that life will worth a lot more living growing in a secular environment? Should we send out pamphlets? What does it take to arouse masses? (Khomeini did it with simple cassette tapes). I think the climate is right. People are ready to listen. It is just a matter of how you make your voice heard and how effectively.

 I nominate benross and Farah as leaders to initiate the process. Let’s leave passionate and super-intelligent people like Fred to destroy the reputation of the ruling government. We all can work in tandem.

  There is no need to fight the apologizers of IRI, they will eventually come around. They are not the true enemy. Lack of political education and centuries of religious darkness are the real enemies. Somehow we have to turn the light on.

 Mostafa, thanks again for such a meaningful blog.

Mostafa

If you think our people are so wise to consider and use figures like Mousavi as means to call for change, then I have no reason not to believe that we are now a mature nation  with tangible and logical quests! Are we really a mature nation?

Sorry I just noticed it now.

Well, I wouldn't go that far about maturity of our nation! Mature is what mature does. Look around this site to have and idea about the level of maturity! (Iranians inside are far better though)

I don't write these comments about Moosavi and others without constantly minding the necessity of creating a political organization which is voicing the secular democracy alternative for Iran. Maybe this is the missing link to better understand my evaluation. I try to make a note of this necessity in every comment I make from now on.

Not only within the regime, but also outside of the regime but without Iranians abroad, the secularist movement is going nowhere. I have no illusion about this. So I evaluate Moosavi and others, provided that we here work on creating a secular alternative political organization. If we don't do that, then Moosavi or any other politician inside Iran don't really matter. Iranians inside are going nowhere without us.

خانم روستا

mg

از دیو و دد ملولم و انسانم آرزوست

حق با شما است؛ ما خائنان به فرهنگ عظیم خودیم؛ ما وارثان
نالایق فلسفه گرا نی‌ هستیم که دریافت و هضمش زلا لی جان و رسائ اندیشه را
میطلبد. سال‌ها دل طلب جام جم از ما میکرد   آنچه خود داشت ز بیگانه تمنا
میکرد. و  این حکایت  غریب قوم صاحب چرا غیست که در تاریکی‌ جهل و خود
بینی‌ سرگردن است. باشد که روزی چراغ جان بر افروزیم و خرد را معیار سنجش
خوب و بد قرار دهیم.

Dear bachenavvab

mg

Thank for your your comment.

If we understand what really we are looking for, we will get it. If we have learnt our lessons from the great teacher of time, then we will not be derailed. Have we been good students? God, Mullah, religion, war, bloodshed, pain, sorrow, regret, regression, do have these words any specific thing to tell us? If yes...

Dear Mr Ahosseini

mg

Thank you very much for your comment.

You are absolutely right, it is a spontaneous movement; it is a genuine quest. But the point which gives  rise to serious concerns is the true targets of this movement that must be outlined and set on an even ground.

But before thanking Reza2 jaan,

The Pahlavis must disclose the source and the amount of their wealth.

Dear benross

mg

Thank you for your comment

If you think our people are so wise to consider and use figures like Mousavi as means to call for change, then I have no reason not to believe that we are now a mature nation  with tangible and logical quests! Are we really a mature nation?

Here is the bottomline...

Is not the conflict within the regime that of Sepah vs. the clergy and on the streets people vs. the regime?  At some point those who are using the people for their own ends will have to part ways with the people due to their inherent conflicts. We all recall Mousavi's "hokoomate moghaddase jomhouriye eslami" comments not too long ago.  The danger of likes of him is derailing the movement.  Khatami's job was to passify people, what is his?  The focus should be on the popular uprising and their need for our support abroad.  There are not nearly enough demonstrations abroad.  Instead we are still talking about Mr. Pahlavi, whose qualifications for ruling Iran stop at genetics and has no popular support.  I am sure there are those who think he would be better than the current system -  sound familiar?   

Khare aziz.....I Got it...2 zarim taaze oftaad...

my blood boils when I see things about the architect of Iranian demise...I feel dizzy and an urgent need to curse these mo-fo's falls over me - I forget all that is said and inferred about the murdering bastard regime of the unelected bunch....

Dear Mr Ghanbari

First allow me to thank you for your very kind words. The honor is truly mine.  In using the biblical metaphor of the Messiah, let me draw your attention to these famous words:

The Messiah would be rejected by the very people He would come to help.He would go through suffering in order to save us

(Isaiah 53: 3,4) 

Whenver someone becomes hugely popular (in their own time and life) I know that there must be some thing wrong. Jesus's appeal became world wide only after his death - in fact centuries after his death. But please don't think that we must wait for centuries to get rid of the (un)Islamic Republic of Iran. We Iranians have had our Messiahs too. Like Jesus they gained support and recognition only after their death. If I were to choose a savior from our long and establisehd cultural heritage, they would have been Rumi, Saadi and above all, Hafez. These great and timeless thinkers provided us with a pricelss legacy that we as a nation failed to understand and uphold. If you go up and down the four Gospels you cannot find anything that is not covered or said in a language many times more beautiful than the Gospels in the works of these great esoteric poets and thinkers. Yet Christ conquered the hearts of millions in all corners of the world but Rumi, Hafiz and Saadi failed to conquer the hearts and minds of the very people they grew in their midst. This was not their fault but ours. They warned us about the evil of preaching mullahs and the fundamentalist religion and yet the shameful people of Iran paid no attention to such rich intellectual hertitage and embraced the precise opposite of what these thinkers had warned us against.

We are perhaps the only nation who have went against their own hugely rich cultural and literary heritage.  

All I can tell you about the signs of this missing Messiah is that he or she comes from a clean and untainted background and he or she will be ridiculed and rejectd by the very people he is trying to save.

FR

Dear Lady Rusta

mg

It is really a great honour for me to have your comment on one of my posts. Thank you indeed.

We have been waiting for a Messiah to com for years, for centuries; while the real Messiah has been awaiting us to go to him,for years, for centuries. Are we going to go to the real Messiah and be blessed once for good, or not? Do we know anything about the feature of the real Messiah? Can we recognise him?

Dear Maryam

mg

Thank you for your comment.

I have already read  some of your posts; so i know that you are in love with your culture (Iranian culture), although you are an Iranian-American person. Our culture is a truly rich and viable culture. It can easily lead us to the right paths of success and prosperity. So we must appreciate such a great culture and do not waste our lives by following some defunct and obviously inhuman beliefs.

Dear Red Wine

mg

Thank you for your short but meaningful comment.

I realy enjoy that crisp exact and sweet use of Farsi in your works.

Dear Khar

mg

First of all I would like to thank you for your genuine  and zealous contributions on this site and expressing your concerns for your country and your people. Thank you indeed.

As to the raised points in your lengthy comment, firstly I have to let you know that  I am 37 year old and I  left Iran about three years ago as I had no tears left to shed for my land, for my apt and sufficient brothers and sisters who have been toiling just for their butter and bread.

My Dear my only political wish and not "need"  as a person living abroad is a piece of justice for my people who I believe are the most modest and genuine people in the world. I am not a member of any  political group or association; I am not in favor of any particular group or figure; So I do not need to paint anyone with my own favorite colour to suit my political needs.

And about mousavi, as I am not a blind critic, I should confess that he did a remarkable job during the eight years of war against Iraq; but my main point about him is his smell of  the same ideology which have already ruined us and most importantly led us to the descending way  of regression and diminishment. In other words, the necessities of time and the kind of changes that we are looking for, will automatically reject the  figures like Mousavi. We want justice and equality and these kind of figures have had thirty years of time to help us with these vital quests. do not forget that Khatami could save his nation for good, if he was honest; he had the unconditional support of twenty million of young, educated and zealous Iranian who were ready to die for their freedom.

Mousavi, Karubi and all the astute and opportunistic figures( who nowadays are feeling  different tingles in different part of their bodies for their poor nation), could join the timid Khatami and become the assertive drives  and cause a great change; but they wasted that unique opportunity.

and about Imam Khomeini, I strongly disagree with you on considering him as a dead person. My Dear friend Khomeini is not dead; he is still alive and hidden among the masses; he is still the most dangerous emey of us. He is still an effective tool in the hands of astute figures like Mousavi; they need the name Khomeini because they need the blind power of the masses. So, I believe Khomeini must be killed, his sinister ideology must be skewed; he must be dragged out of the mind of the masses.

Mr Khar

Let me address your views in their order of appearance. You say:

"... to be pragmatic and to analyze the personalities based on their
past deeds but more importantly on their current political context. "

As I mentioned in my comment on the other blog, precisely thirty one years ago these days, the vastly fragmented oppositon to the Shah who were coming from a more exprienced (!!) background than the present opposition to the IRI, were saying the same owrds. To them it didn't matter that Khomenini represented a fundamental version of Islam which was 180 degrees opposed to their views on democarcy, freedom and human rights and all got united in rallying behind him to get rid of the Shah - and rid of the Shah they got. But very shortly after their superficial victory they realized their real enemy was their own foolishness. They too thought they were  pragmatic. Now what guaranttee are you giving the readers of your text that they will not be disappointed yet again? And please don't tell me that perople today are far more educated than the people of those days or that we are driving home is a world wide web revolution. Both sides of this war are also far more advanced and educated than the their counter parts of thirty years ago.

To hold Mousavi responsible only for the massacres of the late 1360's is an unfair indictment. He was not like a simple civil service worker who was pushing paper in a back office in the ministry of customs and excise. He was the chief adminstrative officer of a despotic regime who oversaw the financial and executive aspects of the tyranny which was responsible for not only massacres but the confiscation of people's properties and destruction of the economy in a war of attrition that saw billions of nations wealth looted and wasted on the war and maintenance of the same dictatorship. Now if you prefer t call it managment (!), please be my guest.

The worst type of change or reform is the type that, after its initial stages, is headed by the elements of the very regime that the reform is seeking to change. Your exmaple of Gorbachev is in fact a very relevant example. See the present day Russia. It is still run by the same corrupt and criminal elements of the past and is the home to the world's most dangerous mafia. The same can be said about smallers countries like Romania or Slovakia. Is this what you recommend for the Iran of post IRI? Gorbachev and Yeltsin were the darlings of the West but they reduced the USSR from an integrated dictatorship to a brutal and disintegrated oligarchy. God forbid the same fate for Iran. 

Thanks for your interest in my comments Mr kar.

FR

I guess this is my point. As

I guess this is my point. As Iranians abroad, we can not possibly claim secularism and democracy and supporting Moosavi at the same time. We have to have our own voice. At the same time, we must recognize that inside Iran, and for Iranians INSIDE, Moosavi and others are vehicles of their call for change. For how long and for what goal? this is something that nobody can answer and this is exactly why we have a responsibility to offer a political organization with a clear secular mandate and within such organization, looking in the areas where we can cooperate with the movement inside the country. Short of such organization, we remain a bunch of useless spectators, incapable of cheering wholeheartedly for anyone.

So the discussion between Khar and Farah in my view, will only find a satisfying answer for both of them in a new organization.

Cost of Progress

You never heard of the phrase "13th Imam"? this is NOT a terms of endearment. It was/is used as making fun at Khomeini, since number 13 is a bad luck number, Nahs.

Do I need to explain further?

Cost of Progress

You never heard of the phrase "13th Imam"? this is NOT a terms of endearment. It was/is used as making fun at Khomeini, since number 13 is a bad luck number, Nahs.

Do I need to explain further?