چرا رای میدم؟

say no to criminals

Very well said!
I'll only add that it's not even a good decision politically. The less these guys get votes, the more they'll know they might have to budge.

If Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin

If Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin and Emperor Hirohito were running for president who would you vote for? Or would you vote at all?
Well, while these 4 people, if you could call them that, might be very different from one another, they still represent something very different from what I believe in. They all represent something I consider evil.
While as a tactic, you may want to vote for one against the other, and while that might be a right decision politically, it is definitely immoral.
To those who are trying to persuade us to vote, I would say this: The Islamic republic is a brutal and evil criminal whose hands are stained with the blood of thousands of innocent people and no one can deny that, even they themselves have never denied that. This regime has committed the worst crimes in the history of our country, one example of which is the execution of the political prisoners in the summer of 1988 (1367), when they executed at least 4000 people in matter of a few weeks, some of whom had done their time and were waiting to be released.
How could any logical man tell us to forget all about those lost lives and just vote, because if you don’t, then Ahmadinejad would win over the others? Who cares? Which one of these four has said anything about the crimes of the Islamic republic? Which one of them has ever acknowledged the wrong that has been done to us? Who are we kidding?
Would you make peace with someone who comes to your house, takes your family hostage, rapes your daughter or sister, kills your brother or father, takes over all your livelihood and keeps a gun to your head at all times, day in and day out?
With all due respect, perhaps you would, but I won’t and please do me a favor and don’t make it my national duty to go out and vote. Because I would rather die before I vote for Hitler, Mussolini, comrade Stalin or Emperor Hirohito.

the ties that bind

is it a coincidence that both khamenei and mousavi's ancestries hail from khameneh (rahbar's father's and mousavi's birthplace; today's population and surrounding towns < 9000)?  can one of our azari friends enlighten us about this town?  considering how close they are in age (rahbar: 1939, mousavi: 1941), could it be possible that they played gol koochik when the then young ali was visiting his father's hometown?

رای یتو بده، فحشتم بده!

رای یتو بده، فحشتم بده!

بابا، این جیبوری اسلامی دائم دروغ میگه، خوب ما هم پس باید یاد بگیریم دیگه!

۱ - فحشتو بده؛

۲ - بگو رای نمیدم؛

۳ - برو رای یتم بده!

Paarham

I believe that someone here is trying to shine their "joonoob shahri" badge and credentials. It is the Bully's way of making an argument. You know. My way or the highway kinda thing. With Him, It was elegance off the top when he responded to my first reply.

Mazdak

You have a serious problem listening and understanding other's opinion, so basically you are assadistic and irrational as your "arbabs" back in iran.

Sheereen ebadi receives numerous death threats, her house gets raided in broad daylight yet some delusional, demented  guy Thinks There is freedom in iran, and that she actually is allowd to continue her activities unrestricted.

There are Hundreds of magazines!! OF course there are, But our resident Lunetic does not realize and purposely overlooks the fact that the majority get shut down if they dare to tell the truth of the matter.

Look how desparate our nation must be that the mere fact that a proven supporter of the fundamentals of the regime hinting at the fact that there should be better relations with USA even though he might not mean it and even though for any reason there is a big chance He may go back on his word, should make us hopeful that Yeah..! indeed there is hope for reform for our nations's future. How pathetic one must be to even think like that. KHamenei has made his position so clear on this matter that it only takes a real lunetic to see a ray of light and hope that he is accomodating an opposite POV!

Yeah. Sure people can Breathe now. Only if they make one false move or say one word that even remotely seem offensive, That lands them In evin or if they are lucky they get their behinds flogged.
I sure appreciate you NOT respecting my opinion. Had you done so that would have been the most horrible insult in my entire life.

Khosh bash javoon.

Mazdak

That's what I'm talking about. You're talking about the illusion, not the actual thing.
Believe me, I used to think like you!

And why does EVERYONE I say this to presume I haven't seen or lived in Iran for a long time?? :-)

Sheeshaki

I took you seriously and spend time trying to respond to your semi-literate gibberish. So I'm done with you (and JJ, print this, or else don't print garbage like this guy's). Parham, you have to understand that the actual country has moved on from what may be frozen in your or my imagination. When was the last time you were in Iran? This is not a black and white issue. Iranian society is a lot more dynamic than Kuwait or the Saudi where there is absolutely no room for dissent. Where is the equivalent of Ebadi in Saudi Arabia? There are hundreds of magazines published in Iran, not because of magnanimity of the Mullahs; because of the intellectuals' doggedness to take advantage of any cracks in the system. Where is the equivalent of the Iranian cinema anywhere else in the ME? My point was not that Iran is a full fledged democracy; no, but that because of lack of cohesion in the ruling class, and because of certain pseudo-democratic provisions in the constitution, voting is not as meaningless and rubber stamp as it is in say Egypt. Look, there is a difference between Moussavi and Ahmadinejad when it comes to foreign policy. Moussavi at least on the surface seems to want to normalize relations with the West. This is vital to Iran right now. I think the fact Moussavi is running and saying what he is saying about normalizing Iran's relations with the West, shows that Khamenei is accommodating this POV as well as Ahmadinejad's. This is not a monolithic regime the way it used to be when Khomeini was alive. Maybe some of you people didn’t live in Iran in the ‘80s. I did and you couldn’t breath back then, it was that oppressive. And this is what politics is about. You have to weigh your options. Is voting going to be beneficial and my answer is that YES. People shouldn't abandon the arena at this point. Btw, you're entitled to your opinion and I respect it because at least you try to put out a rational argument.

I am with you brother:)

However you say it and whatever words you find to describe it, It does not change the fact that this is no way or path toward true democracy. Hey. I have just started to read your "an exercise in democracy" blog. Good job:)

sheeshaki

I actually found better words for what I wanted to say.

I wanted to say that this illusion that is brought about by the elections is more of a sublimation of tyranny than a first (or second) step in democracy.

Parham

Amen to what you just said.

Complicated? farrrrrrrr from it. I could not have put it any more aptly and patently thatn you have just done. The thing is that i could understand the arguments of people such our friends mazdak and sometimes abarmard, but i just do not see eye to eye with them. However, The fact that some people think that IRI has actually succeeded in cutting the hands of Isreal from iran and all that glorified nonsense and In that way the lend their support to the system, despite the numerous issues on which they disagree with IRI, does not make sense to me at all.

sheeshaki

I see... No comment. LOL!

I know Mazdak is not saying this is a democracy, but he's saying it's as close as we have come to it. I say it's actually the other way around, the illusion of coming close to democracy can be even more dangerous. As you see, there are a lot of people acting like this is actually a democracy and it's the illusion that has made them think that way.
See what I mean? I know it gets a bit complicated...

parham

LOL

The same happened to me until i looked up and saw the name of the blog's author:)

One thing about mazadak's opinions. He or she did mention that neither he/she or IRI claims that they are a democracy. but what i find so objectionable and disagreeable in these comments is That he continues to maintain that there is still hope and possibility of this regime getting better, Knowing well the level of supression, opression and censorship of basically all forms of expressions. WHat good is that we have a narrowly allowable and limited freedom of expression on the paper, in our constitution? Since when the whole constitution has started being respected and taken seriously in its entirety?

Who's Negar?

I keep looking around, and I see no Negar here on this thread. Unless she has another handle?

Mazdak (just in case you'd like to know my opinion), I agree with Shishaki here, I don't see this as anything close to democracy. In fact, I think it's situated somewhere on the opposite axis. Meaning, we should even be careful not to get used to how they feed this to us as a democracy, because that in itself could be dangerous: We could get used to it!

Bravo Negar!

You may have gotten emotional, but you are acting very rational.

Negar jan

very well put. i fully understand where you are coming from, and have had  similar experiences.

Monda, Mazadak: excellent analyses. Thanks.

Peace

Mazdak

No it is not, But just so you know i am more than capable of coming up with something even more effective and destructive than what your response might have been... Now that we have settled that issue,..
I am not quite sure that even you know exactly what you are standing for over here. Your logic is so fuzzy and vague at best. You say that there are "stuff" that is being talked and discussed about iran. Yet, and this is the most interesting part of argument, that there is The basis of the system can not be questioned and the supreme leader trumps all and even when there are a few like sheerin ebadi who are doing some kind of activity. she faces death threats and so forth??  And this is your definition Of "narrowly defined" How about Make a wrong move or say the wrong thing and you are finished?  It is even more pathetic to say that there is a limited!! form of press only on paper, through which you can not express much. Are you kidding yourself? As far as i am concerned this is the same as Kuwait and Saudi arabia and it might as well be. This is freedom with someone holding a gun to your head and breathing down your neck. Aint worth jack shit. That is illogical justification.

Would it even be a legitimate claim to declare as irrelevant the role that the government official play in implementing those democratic principles? You keep bringing up the most absurd and unimportant and totally baseless element of oh, it is there in the constitution but only on paper? So what? Look att what is really and practically taking place in the society. Who is using violence and who is restricting access to pretty much every kind of freedom that there, socially and politically.

IRI never claimed itself to be a democracy? So what? does it have to? You think people are dumb and blind to not know and comprehend what goes on before their eyes and rather wait for an official declaration of whether iri is or is not a democracy? And why are you legitimizing and defending this by USing USA as an example. What are the Obvious and palpable signs that "Some ruling classes" even in US try discourage people from participating in the process? You are making this up. US is THE only country where such participation has the LEAST chance of being stopped and/or discouraged. 

Your comparing and contrasting the IRI vs The shah does not amount to anything substantial. Pretty much every thing thatyou said happened before 1979 IS happening today, all within a narrowly defined context, except that there is more vicious suppression of voices of any kind, Under a different excuse. You are in a fantasy Island. You see "possibilities" , I think that you know that you are fooling yourself. What are the Possibilities and what are the reasons on which they are based on, when knowing full well  that any word or gesture that is perceived as threat, and said against the fundamentals of the system, sets in place the most cruel and unjust punishments.

Stop fooling yourself:)

Mr. / Mrs. sheeshaki

Hope your name is not a gesture at me because growing up in South Tehran I have more than an appropriate response to that. But seriously. Yes, there is limited room for political freedom in Iran but narrowly defined. A lot of stuff is being discussed in Iran. Of course you can't question the basis of the regime, and the supreme leader can trump all. Ms. Ebadi is active in Iran albeit with death threats and so forth. There are people like Ganji. This is a lot, a lot more than you can say about Kuwait, UAE, the Saudi, Egypt and Syria. Even Turkey is not a model democracy (again, don’t mix social freedoms like for women to go without Hijab with politcs, etc) Whether or not people have paid a price for learning about democracy is irrelevant to this discussion. They have learned, in spite of the Mullahs mind you. Again, whether or not the officials are always willing to allow self-expression is also besides the point. The IRI constitution does allow for a limited form of freedom of press. This is on the paper of course. Almost everywhere the ruling class tries to frustrate democracy and discourage the people from participating, even in good old USA. Again, I didn't call the IRI a democracy. They don't even claim that for themselves. As to the time of the Shah, there was a lot more social freedom but absolutely NO political freedom. None whatever. Very little academic freedom and limited artistic freedom, what with SAVAK always on your ass. You had to do things within very narrow limits set by the regime. It was that lack of political freedom that to a large degree contributed to the rise of nativist ideas and the revolution. Political repression almost always creates an unhealthy climate. Btw, one thing people like yourself have to realize. You can't deal with any regime as a monolith. Saying that there are possibilities, within reason, doesn’t mean advocating a regime or even legitimizing it.

Mazdak

Your first paragraph was in reality a masterpiece in theoretically defining  democracy and differentiating in from Social freedom. But You drop the ball when you declare that there is even an slightest bit democratic activity allowed and that our constitution allows for a "limited" democratic functinality? Let's define these functionalities. In fact let's define what exactly is a democratic activity? Wouldn't you agree that the first thought that comes to one's mind would be Freedom of expression and freedom of press? Does our constitution allow that and if in fact it does, do our leaders and officilas allow that and actually practice it? Why is it that one gets canned committing the slightest of violations? Does this mean to you that really, there is room for breathing politically? And despite all internal conflicts and tension, we see a united front when it comes to punish ing those whoes assertions is interpreted in so many ways as discreditting the foundation and the basis of the system, and that is when  there such  tremendous cohesion among leaders. Iran's case is far from being a hodgepodge, It is absolutely clear what we are dealing with. Practically, it is safe to make the comparison to the situations in Syria and former baath party of Iraq and say that these two are precisely identical.

 If people have truly been learning anything at all about democracy in this past 15 years, they sure have paid a hefty price for it! In the pre-revolutionary era, there was at least freedom that people could feel and sense and it was palpable, even though it came with a price as well. But at least people could LIVE. and see what living was like. WHat difference does it make what atttracts people On TV, when families and community in general has been shattered?

Parham

Do you mean by "this" Iran? If yes, then no, I don't think Iran is a democracy in its classic Western definition. Of course Western democracies have their limits too. Pluralism, democracy and social freedom, are terms that are bandied about interchangeably sometime. Democracy in its Greek sense is about conflict, that is a system that allows a forum for class or group conflicts to be contested within a set of rules. Dictatorships and authoritarian regimes on the other hand absorb all conflicts in them. Hezb faghat hezbollad, Rahbar faghat Rohallah, is just that. No room for conflict, the leader subsumes all. Iran's case is a sort of hodgepodge. The IRI constitution allows for a limited form of low level democratic functionalities. So long as Khomeini was alive none of that meant anything. he was the absolute ruler, a charismatic figure whose aura suspended the body politic in Iran; sort of like Mao in China. but since his death there have been cracks surfacing. This is unlike say the rule of the Baath regime in Iraq or Syria where the one party state is fully institutionalized. I know some people would protest that the choice is very limited in Iran and perhaps is nothing but sham (and I think I said a version of this myself) but there is room for breathing politically, and that is because the ruling class in Iran is far from cohesive. Unlike many people outside of Iran, I happen to think that people in Iran have been learning about democracy and its workings more in the last 15 years than all the years of the Shah's rule. Just look at some of the stuff on Iranian TV. As I said, there is no guarantees but still there is some hope...

So Mazdak,...

... are you saying this is a democracy?

Health of a democracy

has nothing to do with a huge voter turn out or whether or not one of the candidates won by a landslide. Richard Nixon won two landslides. The National Socialists won by a majority too in 1933. Recently Bush won two terms. Ok, by non-existent or narrow majorities. The health of a democracy has to do with how representative the government in power is. When you got to choose between bad and worse, I don't call that healthy democracy. That being said, I think it's better for the people in Iran to vote for two reasons: a) an exercise in some form of democratic action is better than no exercise. Democratic fatigue usually results in some form of totalitarianism. b) the only way to push the IRI to its limit and possibly change it, is to force it to live up to its own constitution. IRI is changeable (hold the daggers, folks, I know, no guarantees) because of Iran's growing educated middle-class and because the contradictions within the regime are real, unlike Saddam Hussein's Iraq for instance where there was no room for contradiction within the ruling group. Also, unlike China where its massive economic power has complemented the Communist Party's absolute rule, Iran's economy is too fragile. Ultimately people want a decent standard of living and normal way of going about their life. The Imam Zaman brigade is wearing out its welcome and fast.

‫بله اونارو میگم.

خیلی بامزه و بجا بودن، من هم از این کار شما الهامتی گرفتم.

‫شما فکر میکنی که اگر فرضاً درصد رأی دهندگان کمتر از حد مطلوب رژیم باشه، اینها میان بگن «بله امسال فقط ×٪ مردم رأی دادند، که ما انتظارشو نداشتیم؟»

‫با فتوشاپ یک ودیوئو کاملاً چاخان میسازند، حالا فکر میکنید اباعی دارن بگن امسال همانند سالهلی دیگر، مردم سلحشور روانهء صندوقهای رأی شدند؟

پروندهء خرابکاریهای احمدی خیلی سنگینه. اگر جلوش گرفته نشه، دستی دستی مملکت را به آتیش و خون ‫خواهد کشید. من به این مطلب یقین دارم.

Hajminator

من هر کسی‌ که به شخص خودم کار داشته باشه به طرق مختلف حالشو جا میارم! این عملکرد جدیدمه. قبلا زیاد چیزی نمیگفتم، حالا یه دهنسکپی درست حسابی‌ ازشون به عمل میارم.

در مورد قاسم هم فقط یادمه تیتر شیرین کاریهای رئیس جمهور محبوب رو با داستان قاسم روی چند خبر گذاشتم، اونا رو میگی‌؟

‫پرهام،

‫هان رسیدیم سر مطلب، من میگم شما کسانیکه هم نظرت نیستن را مسخره و تحقیر کردی، شما میگی پوزشونو زدی، کف کردن. منظورم همین بود، من میگم ما همه اینجا آدمیم کسی پوزه نداره. والسلام.

‫پی.سی. راجع به قاسم دائی جان ناپلئون, مدرک بیارم؟

‫ژاله خانم
‫ول کن جانم داری شما راجع به چیزی صحبت میکنی که نمیدونی. تندرو ترین افراد رژیم فعلی کسانی هستند که از دین جحود به اسلام رو آوردن مثل عسگراولادی − که بعد لقب مسلمان را هم به اسمش اضافه کرد، این احمودی نژاد یا بهتر بگیم سبورجیان و ....
‫
‫آلان احمدی در سفرهای استانیش چک پول ۲۰۰،۰۰۰ تومانی به ایرانیهائیکه دهخداشونو حتی ندیدند میکشه. به این میگن بوبوس. سیب زمینی مجانی بین مردم توزیع میکنه که رأیشونو بخره و حالا صدای مرگ بر سیب زمینیش در آمده. اگر شما فرد منطقی باشی باید خودت یک حلاجی عاقلانه ازاین رویکرد بکنی.

Jaleho

No, but I'll also know their motivations to vote. Being caught between a rock and a hard place being one.

If the voting turns out to be massive and Ahmadinejad comes out as a winner by a substantial margin, then I'd say we are in dire straits in terms of where our compatriots are in their thinking and what we think/thought they think!

To be honest with you, last round when AN got elected, I was just about to give up on Iran and Iranians all together. Some of my reactions should already give you a hint about that!

But Parham,

if Ahmadinejad comes out as the winner, and the voters turn out is proved to be actually large, then would you agree that a large majority of Iranian people do not agree with this statement of yours:

"given the booboos that Ahmadinejad is leaving behind"

I mean, anyone can claim a particular system is not "democratic," but does the collective voice of millions of people who beg to differ with you carry any weight in your opinion? I hope you are not one of the people who calls Iranians "sheep."

p,s, Hajminator

کدوم قاسم؟؟

Jaleho

That's not actually my chagrin. There probably will be a large turnout, given the booboos that Ahmadinejad is leaving behind and the illusion of change that the ruling class has successfully created.

My chagrin is actually that we have this bunch ruling, and there are people like you who support them. That's what my chagrin is.

And of course, I don't agree with your statement about the IR being a democracy. It's far, far from anything even close to a democratic state.

Hajminator han (!)

شما میگی‌ داری از یک چیز بدیهی‌ صحبت میکنی‌. چون این چیزی که شما بدیهی‌ میدونی‌ رو من تهمت به شخص خودم میدونم، از شما خواستم نشون بدی که از کجا برای شما یک همچنین چیزی انقدر بدیهی‌ شده. و نشون ندادی. باز هم میگم، اگر میخواهی‌ بحث رو ادامه بدی، دلیل و مدرک بیار. و الی‌ این بحث رو بذار کنار. این تهمت‌ها فقط مال کسانیه که آمدن به من حملهٔ شخصی‌ کنن (و نه بحث، نه چیز دیگه)، من هم پوزشونو زدم، حالا هم کف کردن! شما رو یادم نمیاد با هم بحث شخصی‌ کرده باشیم، کردیم؟

در مورد احمدی‌نژاد، تنها چیزی که می‌تونم بگم اینه که موافق نیستیم با حرف همدیگه، و کار دیگه ایش هم نمیتونیم بکنیم! بحث به هر حال جلوتر از این نمیتونه بره، برای اینکه داریم در مورد فرضیات صحبت می‌کنیم. موفق باشی‌