Fighting Words

"War is an ugly thing,..."

The following quote is posted here for the Gandhi-wanabe Iranian regime appeasers who think that regime, a tiger, can be turned into a kitten simply by stroking it.  And, you can all sit all warm and comfy in your homes outside Iran all wrapped up in your own cloak of selfish and self-deluded idealism, while the rest of us have the courage to fight for and insure your and others freedoms since, to you, espousing peace is apparently the same thing as creating or safeguarding it:

 “But war, in a good cause, is not the greatest evil which a nation can suffer.  War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse.  When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people.  A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice – a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice – is often the means of their regeneration.  A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.  As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other.”

John Stuart Mill (1806-1873), “The Contest in America.” Harper's New Monthly Magazine, Volume 24, Issue 143, page 683-684. Harper & Bros., New York, April 1862. 

VPK Jaan

You are absolutely correct.  They can stop the violent and confrontational revolutionary rhetoric anytime they want.  The problem is that they have built their whole existence around this rhetoric, and have used it to justify EVERY SINGLE atrocity and act of incompetence, from the war, to mass executions, to hiding their nuclear program for more 17 years in direct violation of the NPT, to chain murders, to the recent crackdown on the protesters, etc.  So, getting rid of this rhetoric will mean their end.  That's why they will never do away with it.  

Find a way??

If AN wanted to find a way out of his rhetoric it would take 5 minutes.

• Shut his big mouth.
• Stop recruiting suicide bombers against Israel.
• Get mental help.

It would be even simpler for IRI.

• Admit they rigged the elections.
• Hold new elections and don't cheat.
• Get a normal person for president.

Even better:

• Khamenei should  declare the VF null & void and resign.
• Hold honest elections with no pre screening for a new Majlis.
• The Majlis will draft a secular democratic constitution. 

But we all know that IRI is not interested in finding a way out.

They want conflict. They want war and by god they are going to get one. Then in a corner of Gitmo AN & Khamenei will be happy. They get to blame evil West for putting them away. In this they will be joined by Western letf wingers including Galloway. They will talk about how evil West is for doing this. All of it to be published in Huffington Post.

Right next to articles praising the Taliban as being the most popular indigenous Afghan government.

VPK

I could not

Believe my eyes when i was reading that bit of news... I just did not know what to feel. It is such an Un21st centurish thing to do.

VPK, Doctor X and NP

VPK and Dr. X: These two quotes form your posts sum it all up:

 The IRI leadership is out of touch with the wishes of Iran's people. The IRI specially AN want to stick it to the West; people of Iran don't agree. How much more clearly should I put it? The IRI is not Iran and does not represent it.

The wishes of Iranian people are to live a normal lives. Have good relations with the West. Have good trade with the West. Not constantly needle the USA. But Khamenei and AN disagree. They want conflict. That is their desire not Iran's.

 Having an agenda is fine and understandable, but how are they planning on dealing with its consequences? How are they planning on keeping people in agreement and harmony with their wishes and demands, rather?

The IRI puts its revolutionary rhetoric above the ineterest of the people of Iran because since its inception, it has never considered itself to be a part of, or accountable to, the people of Iran.  In fact, part of this this quote from NP sums it up...pretty much:

 they are locked in a revolutionary rhetoric for obvious reasons and are looking for face-saving ways of getting out of the dilemma.

They are stuck in revolutionary rhetoric, but I disagree that they are trying to find a way out.  It's a way of life for them.  They just can't let it go.  Here, read this:

 //www.mehrnews.com/fa/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsID=182920

They are collecting "suicide volunteers" against Israel...again...

Instigations, instigations, instigations....

I'll write some more tomorrow.  Have to hit the sack now. 

With every new post, a new absurdity

i think the nuclear case is a clear example of iran's rights being trampled on.

Which entity is clearly the leading candidate for trampling on the rights of Iranians? Here's a hint: it's the same entity that certain West-residing Islamist charlatans shill for?  

NP

We should not? By all indications, it looks as if you already made up your mind as to who is really after the other side's soul and who has their mind made up by adopting a "war mentality".

Kinda ironic when you say "we should not fall for it".:))

Everyone

I just returned and noticed all the recent comments.  I will read them and respond, later.

dx

fair enough. i think we agree that there are two sides to the story.

i am all for international laws being applied fairly. i think the nuclear case is a clear example of iran's rights being trampled on. and the 'justification' they use is basically that the mullahs are 'crazy'. that's the link i was trying to make. but we know that both sides have a certain rationality about them. and yes, both sides use propaganda. i am just saying we should not fall for it.

Peace

NP did you even Read my comment???

It is a good thing that you think of this system as a rather less than perfect one, Yet at the same time are you denying that they have used this same method of calling their adversary all kinds of names including Crazy??? so by that logic they are nurturing War mentality as well and are trying to do the "putting away" thing to americans.

No one can actually deny another their humanity or sanity. They can undermine such qualities,  and they can redicule them for it, But how can you deny someone's Humanity??

I have no problems at all with seeing trust and friendship first, But the thing is that the side who is begging to see the proof of this trust, comes up short in meeting its own obligation in the Land of Trusting partners.

Also, The minute you or anyone else start talking about an "alternate" anything, a big red flag goes up. That means you are giving yourself the right to violate internationally recognized boundaries and treaties. There are not many definitions for Irrationality. There is only one way to define it.

NP

the last refuge of a defender of IRI is to say that the IRI ruling elite are rational. So what if they are rational, they are still killers, dictators and are actively supressing the will of the people.. 

But but but but... they are rational -cries out the IRI loving groupie ad nauseum.

PS-By the way sister, I do love reading you posts- they are very entertaining and interesting- your reasoning demonstrates classical 'knights move thinking'- you gotto see someone about that.  

dx - rationality

well this really is the heart of the matter. there is no denying that there are human rights and economic problems in iran. but this does not prove a lack of rationality. many countries in the world have problems. usa included. you not only have gone through a major economic crisis, you also legalised torture, and despite the rhetoric, obama does not seem to have stopped it either. i am not sure. not saying that the iranian government has been perfect. far from it. but when you question the sheer rationality of your opponent, you are basically giving yourself permission to get violent with them. this is war mentality. you are in effect denying them their humanity by branding them as 'crazy'. and 'crazy' people 'naturally' should be put away, right? 

despite the fact that i do believe in universal values, or perhaps because of them, i think no one has the right to deny others their humanity and sanity. i am no psychologist, but i would guess that any psychological problem has to be extremely severe before the patient is classified as 'irrational'. 

it is far more fruitful to recognise and give a minimum level of respect to alternate rationalities. that way, no one can assume superiority and friendship can bloom. friends influence each other. if america has anything positive that iran can learn from, the first step must be trust and friendship. imposed values are more like chains. this is why we left iran, isn't it? 

Peace

NP

NO WAYYY!!

Are you serious about this?:

 in effect, they have such a low opinion of their own people's opinion, or their ability to formulate the desired opinion, that they trick them into seeing the other side as simply 'crazy'. however, i am surprised that an iranian such as youreself appears to have fallen for this one.

Gee, i wonder where i have seen that strategy before...a government having such low opinions for it's own people... AHA! i know. IRAN! Never have we been fed the falsified information, that Westerners are crazy and do dumb things, they are here on earth to worship the devil and do his work for him so Down with them. Hmm.. i must be imagining things . Yea... As a matter of fact the media back home, have received awards on portraying the exact, unfettered, irreplaceable truth, and nothing but. NP... Baba das khosh ba ma ham bale?

Not much irrationality?????? I have got to get Jon stewart to do a show on this one:))))

I don't know what irrationality would mean in your mind and how you see it, but believe me, to a person standing outside looking in, the unbelievably growing unemployment rate coupled with increasing brain-drain or all sorts of departures, would be an instant clue that something is horribly wrong meaning that the gov can not be acting in a rational manner, or else we would have seen better results.

If it seems as if i am underestimating in anyway, that is because i see the reality of what goes on in the country. Nothing can be further from the truth. there is absoluetly nothing and no way that they can hide the facts and the realities and the sufferings, i don't give a damn if a "revolvolution" happens overnight in there.

Another fatwa

Khahar Niloufar has issued another fatwa: "exactly the kind of language that will get the opposition nowhere. it undermines any chance of dialogue. it is designed to intensify conflict."

This from the same individual who calls opponents of her darling Rapist Regime "an uppity treacherous" lot. Oh yeah, we can all take lessons from Abjee Nilou on "exactly the kind of language" that should be used  :-)

man of peace and dialogue

this fellow sure sounds like one:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4ab0AMMlZs&feature=player_embedded 

'murderous greedy thieves'

is exactly the kind of language that will get the opposition nowhere. it undermines any chance of dialogue. it is designed to intensify conflict.

'nothing irational about the iri'

The problem is not them being irrational. the problem is them being murderous greedy thieves who use violence and lying to maintain their hold on power.

Here is video to psyche us all up for the next peaceful instalment,

 //www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4ab0AMMlZs&feature=player_embedded

dx

one problem with the american discourse on iran - or any other flavour of the month, be it iraq, afghanistan, vietnam, panama, nicaragua, cambodia, laos, cuba, korea, later north korea, pakistan - is that it projects 'irrationality' on to the other side. this trick is designed for the local market and constituency. in effect, they have such a low opinion of their own people's opinion, or their ability to formulate the desired opinion, that they trick them into seeing the other side as simply 'crazy'. however, i am surprised that an iranian such as yourself appears to have fallen for this one.

there is not much that is irrational about the regime. this is why they are still there after all this time. it will not stay the same and has to evolve, but your approach is one that has consistently underestimated the regime and its support base inside the country. this is why they are still in power.  

Peace

vpk

re. jungle and iri removal: i know this is what you want. i want it too, but unlike you i do not believe it is going to happen any time soon. i only have one 'judgement' about your approach - if you will forgive my gall - and that is: you seem to superimpose what you would like to see happen over what is the likely turn of events. i am talking about a subconscious process.  funny thing is this is what some would say about me with all the 'anti-imperialist' stuff. that there is something very 'anti-imperialist' about me is very true. i think this is part of my iranian character. i would expect to meet this kind of character among most iranians. my guess is that our own imperial past makes us particularly independent minded. i understand where ahmadinejad and the revolution came from. you repeatedly denounce the revolution as a 'mistake'. i actually agree it was a mistake. but show me a revolution that wasn't based on myths and wasn't a failure, at least in some respects. second thoughts: don't! the real point is that the current regime is far stronger and more popular than you claim, in my view. again, i suspect - with due apology - that you transfer your feelings for the revolution to today and see a regime that 'must' fall on account of all its faults. again, i wish you were right, but i observe that the case is quite the opposite. look at what just has happened: the bazaaris went on strike to resist paying taxes, but they never closed shop once to support the greens. now, increasing pressure from the west may have some impact, but i expect not the desired one. in principle, western interference in iran's internal affairs is unwelcome for iranians. your generally vehement reaction to iran's stance against the west makes me wonder what you would say if iran had invaded mexico and canada and threatened to attack usa. how irate would you be then?

or would you be supporting iran then? i know i wouldn't. am an anti-imperialist :) 

Peace

vpk

i understand your point. i just don't agree. ahmadinejad and khamenei do not want war with the west either. they are locked in a revolutionary rhetoric for obvious reasons and are looking for face-saving ways of getting out of the dilemma. for this they need to show some kind of 'victory' before they make peace. it is the same with obama. but obama has not been gracious about letting iran 'gain' anything. on balance i find ahmadinejad more willing to compromise than obama. this is why i am critical of obama's approach. he too is locked in a certain type of discourse - one that is dominated by corporations.

Peace

VPK

Wonderfully put. That is the essence of it all. clear and simple.

NP

Obviously it is all about a show of power and might for you. Having an agenda is fine and understandable, but how are they planning on dealing with its consequences? How are they planning on keeping people in agreement and harmony with their wishes and demands, rather?

Smart of you to pick china as an example in this matter. Yeah right. Let's forget about all kinds of economic opportunities that chinese gov, has created for its people, how it has opened up country to an unprecedented level of tourism, and so many other productive steps it has taken. Do we see that in iran, TODAY? I guess by your standards it is bound to happen eventually! who really knows (or perhaps cares) when, right? It is all about being in a position of power for us and not letting US having its way, which it already is having ANYWAY.

You don't think it is anyway near paralyzing then ha? To see imposing such sanctions will impact every level of this society even worse than it has before, to think how literally from now on people might have too choose between food and other necessary items, to think how many  more may have to go unpaid?

Your last sentece amounts to the last words of a leader of a country days before issuing a declaration of war...Think about it.

I am sure Fidel and Hugo are stirring things up really well on this side of the Waters, and Be khaste khoda we will have on our hands a scenario so many people, including you, have preparing themseleves for.

NP: regarding jungle

The animals in the jungle don't have spy satellites or a ton of other spy machines. If you say wearing a mask fools USA  you are kidding right?

The IRI needs to g o it will be removed. Better they step down by themselves.

NP

The IRI leadership is out of touch with the wishes of Iran's people. The IRI specially AN want to stick it to the West; people of Iran don't agree. How much more clearly should I put it? The IRI is not Iran and does not represent it.

The wishes of Iranian people are to live a normal lives. Have good relations with the West. Have good trade with the West. Not constantly needle the USA. But Khamenei and AN disagree. They want conflict. That is their desire not Iran's.

Please do not pretend to missunderstand my point. Abarmard does that all the time and it makes discussion pointless.  There is nothing strange or unusual in wanting good relations with the West. The strange thing is what Khamenei & AN want.

onlyiran

i heard that people who live near jungles with tigers and other predators wear a mask on the back of their heads when they go to dangerous areas. this is because you do not turn your back on a predator. they prefer to attack from behind.

regardless, the best thing about this conversation is that it's a real conversation! glad we could do this :)

Peace

vpk

they are out of touch with what? if you mean western discourse, yes i agree. but iran has own agenda, and she must be respected. same way that the chinese have their own. the reason they demonise iran is because she is relativelty weaker. plus, she wants to have her own way in a region that the americans are used to interfering with. the americans have to get used to greater iranian influence in the region.

soon paralyzing sanctions?

i don't think so. both sides are guilty of opportunism.

True

VPK: Precisely. The leadership is way too out of sync with what the real desire and needs of people are and it should be obvious that it will never change. This, as you say, translates into digging one's own grave, so to speak.

Onlyiran: Could it be that Those signs have not been shown to the ordinary people yet have been more than clarified poshte pardeh?

Well said DoctorX and VPK- and NP- I disagree

I don't think that they end up agreeing.  Unfortunately for the Iranian people, I think that the U.S. has given up on trying to mend things with Iran.  The mullahs drew a line in the sand back in 1979 and have shown no sign of backing down ever since.  In response, the U.S. has used all it can, short of a full scale military attack...at least until now...to go after the IR.  

And staring down bullies only works in the movies.  In the real world, it causes a severe case of getting your ass kicked or your head bashed in by the guy who's bigger than you.  That's just reality. 

Doctor X

Very good points Doctor. I don't see who is impressed by this. People I know don't give a damn about standing to the West. They don't hate USA and don't have that anger. That as I said is limited to a small group of "revolutionaries". I think the IRI leadership is out of touch. They think people have the same priorities as they do. People do not. Most people just want a job and a good life for their families. That They do not have.  So all of this is just getting them pissed off and hopeless.

This is not going to help the IRI. Specially once they remove the subsidies on baisc. People are not represented by AN and Khamenei and know it. If IRI wants to destabalize itself it is doing  a fine job without help from the USA.