Pahlevan

Nezami & Parham

Shoma ham kheil chene darin. Hanooz jarr o bahs mikonied.

Nezami

The more you say, the more I become convinced that this is one of those cases where everyone (or almost) knows except a few.
The hostage crisis was only the culmination of what was happening behind the scenes (and a lot of the times in front!)
Anyway, you'll hardly ever find any written material that would contradict what I'm saying -- like I say: Try to find anything that says they didn't stand up to Khomeyni! That's besides the comment section of Iranian.com, of course... : )

Parham

There is no doubt Bakhtiar made certain political mistakes throughout his career but they were mainly because he firmly believed in strong principles. And taking over as PM when most people knew Shah's regime was doomed was part of him believing in principles, no matter the cost. In my book this makes him not just braver, but also a more sincere man than Bazargan and AE.

What you say about AE and Bazargan standing up against executions does not constitute evidence and it is hearsay. You provide no firm dates  and contents etc. Certainly there is nothing in print that I could find and if they have said things behind the scene, then AE should declare it. It is not good enough to just we "stood up".

When ?? How?? And what was said and to whom?? Is there anyone who can corroborate?

Bazargan was a deeply religious man and he had sympathies with the conservative religious faction until they parted company. Even his cabinet was full of conservative religious ministers like Rajaie (Education). Therefore I find it difficult to believe that he simply went in to try and change these guys' course. Unless proper evidence shows otherwise. And nobody is interested in hearsay with no dates and proper proof etc.

AE however was not particularly religious. Therefore he compromised even more, to align himself with Mollas. Not good for Amir Entezam. One can detect a strong smell of opportunism here. 

Now,.................. even assuming that Bazargan and AE aligned themselves with Khomeini and Co,.................... just to positively influence events as you put it (which I don't buy), they still didn't achieve their aim and in reality a lot of human rights abuses were carried out under their watch for 9 months.

Therefore should they not have to apologise for aligning themselves with these guys, and for not being able to stop all those killings and abuses under their government??

Of course they should.

And the fact remains that Bazargan considered the hostage crisis serious enough to trigger his resignation. But he did not consider any of those daily executions and human right abuses of Iranian people serious enough to resign upon.

That doesn't bode well for his government and his judgment. And AE's too.

We all know about the provisional government of Bazargan etc. The point I was making is that Bazargan had no electoral mandate to govern. That is a fact and nobody can argue with that. Therefore no one should call his government a "democratic one" as he was selected by Khomeini. It is irrelevant whether we call it provisional or anything else. His government (and by extension AE) was not elected by the people of Iran.

Anyway, I have made my points here and I have spent too much time on this as it is.

All the best.

O' Mama! I want cake!

OK let me see if I got it right. I am  a complex  Shahollahi who over the years has accumulated stolen sticky cakes by cheating people  and must now apologise! Right? Yeah, that sounds like me.

 Thanks Parham, your psychic powers have opened my eyes and now I know why the revolution happened. Well, I told the old man but he didn't listen: Let them have cake!!!

Nezami

Actually, if you read my post, you'll see that I say they weren't sweet talked into power. They apparently went in, thinking they could make the country avoid the damage, which turned out to be a miscalculation on their part as they practically became powerless by the turn of events afterward. Let me also add that I myself, didn't know about this until a little while ago. I had also always presumed that Bazargan was fooled by Khomeyni (like everybody else) in the beginning.
This was also a mistake by Bakhtiar --he also thought he'd go in and turn a few things around, although he had a better idea about not being able to do too much. Except he was a braver character, as he took charge of a sinking ship whereas Bazargan (and A-E) thought they were taking charge of a new one setting sail.
As to your question, I think history has already answered that, and I'm surprised you don't really know the answer: Both Bazargan and Amir Entezam stood up to Khomeyni -- Bazargan made it understood that he was not happy at the turn of events ever since the beginning -- he even made it known from the get-go when they killed Nassiri that this was not the way things were supposed to be done and so on. Amir Entezam's resistance later was even more outspoken than Bazargan's and he got into a lot of trouble for it, a trouble that has lasted to this day since.
As for your "democratically elected" philosophy, I think we both know that was not how the events happened -- first they established a provisional government with Bazargan et al, and then they thought about establishing an Islamic Republic, by which time Bazargan and his gang were completely out of favor with the new establishment. And there were no democratic elections held anyway!
And I'm sorry about the loss of your father. As you are aware, that was the fate of so many, and still is.

Bot shekan

Amir-Entezam doesn't need any apology. Those who need to apologize are people who try to stick anything to anyone due to complexes accumulated for years out of having been "cheated" of what they thought was going to be their part of the stolen cake. Try to see if you're not one of them. You sure sound like one.

As to your question about why AE wasn't killed, my guess is obviously, they felt there was danger in killing him, and probably also felt they'd just prolong the suffering in his case -- because that's what they've been doing in case you haven't noticed.

Parham

You seem to miss a point here.

I have a question to ask of Amir Entezam. Which is "what has he done for 9 months as deputy PM to stop human rights violation in Iran"? Therefore the onus is on him to give an answer and provide proof. Not on me.

He needs to answer the question, and with proof to back it up. Right?

In your words they were "sweet talked" into the whole thing. Your words and not mine. Assuming that is correct, then should they not apologise for being naive? That naivety cost a lot of lives under their watch, including my dad's.

At the very least we are owed an apology. And I have to stress the very least. We still reserve the right to bring prosecution against anyone who colluded with murderers.

Again in your words,......"Bazargan thought of Khomeini as a turbaned shah" . Given his hatred of such system, why did he then become his PM?? It would imply he was not true to his principles like Bakhtiar.

I don't want to talk about Hoveyda here as it would put us off course. I am no particular fan of his tenure in general but his premiership which he did not proclaim to be democratic, was a lot less violent than those 9 months of Bazargan's.

Plus Bazargan and co claimed to be democratic even though he was put in that position by Khomeini, and not by a freely elected parliament. This is just to get the record straight for those who claim that AE and Bazargan deeply believed in democracy. Their government was not elected by people. It was selected by Khomeini a few days before the revolution.

Amir Entezam is now reaping the rewards of that earlier lawless society, the foundations of which he helped put together.

A question for A-E's apologists

Why Amir-Entezam's life has been spared?  

Why is it that a regime known to be notorious for its brutality and its savage breaches of human rights, a regime that has ruthlessly killed or issued death warrants against all those who posed serious threats to its stability, a regime that has executed its  founding henchmen (Ghotb-zadeh) and murdered its former allies (Foroohar), should spare the life of another former founding ally and ambassador (Amir-Entezam)?

Was it because the regime feared a massive uprising because of Amir-Entezam's huge popularity!!?

Was it because  perhaps the regimes is not as ruthless and savage as is said to be?

Was it that Amir-Entezam had not done anything seriously damaging to the regime's stability (like Ghtbzadeh) to deserve death?

Was it that Amir Entezam was protected by infulential elements within the regime?

Was it that Amir-Entezam was protected by influential elements without the regime?

Or was it perhaps that regime simply forgot about him?

Any brave apologist to venture an answer?

Bot shekan

Oh I'm sure. Let me know when you de-classify those documents.

Interesting criterion Parham

So whoever argues against the executions in the early days and months, post-revolution, is a Shahollahi!!

Baba shoma digeh kheili sakht migiri aziz.

By the way I like your psychic powers. So you can tell that Hoveyda did not want democracy and Bakhtia and Mosaddegh wanted it!  Why don't you tell us what  Bazargan wanted? lol

And as for A-E's CIA links, I am sure you are intelligent enough to know such classified material cannot be declassified on IC. What do you think?

Nezami

Okay, this is what is surprising me in your argument: The fact is, all evidence points to the fact they stood up to the thugs and that's why they got ousted (and jailed for so long in the case of Amir Entezam), not the opposite! If you are accusing Amir Entezam of having done nothing, you should be bringing proof for that, because again, all evidence points to the contrary!
And again, like I said before, only lately we've been learning ("we"=public) that in fact Bazargan and Amir Entezam even knew more or less who they were going to be dealing with -- it wasn't like they fell for the sweet talk -- an example for that being Shariatmadari Jr's memory of Bazargan after having visited Khomeyni in Neauphle-le-Chateau saying that he found Khomeyni to be "another Shahanshah, but in turban".
Do you see what I mean?

Just in case:
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbas_Amir-Entezam

مش قاسم چرا بیرق سیاه زدید

«والله بابام جان امشب روضه داریم  برنامه مفصلی داریم هفت هشت تا واعظ منبر  می روند  یک دسته سینه زن هم می ایند سینه بزنند » .

Bazargan

Was a weak willed man who had a "good" heart but no backbone. He did absolutely nothing. We was unable to stand up to the "students" and order them to release the hostages. He was unable to stand up to Khomeini and his dictatorial bent. 

Instead he resigned just like Monty Python "Sir Robin". He bravely ran away . "When danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled". What a guy! A real man would have held his ground and if necessary gone down with the ship.

Parham

That is precisely my point.

What exactly did "the likes of Bazargan and Amir Entezam" do during their time in office, to protect Iranian Human Rights and stop executions??

You still haven't said. And nor has Amir Entezam himself.

We know a lot of people were executed during their time in office and although not by their orders, but under their watch.

Amir Entezam had a high IQ and studied in France as well as in Berkley, and also lived in the USA for many years. Therefore he should have known that the basis of any democracy is respect for human rights.

Can anyone tell us with supporting evidence, what Amir Entezam did  during those 9 months as deputy PM to stop human rights abuses in revolutionary courts?

He hasn't said anything himself and there doesn't seem to be anything around. So if you have any, then let us have it. I for one would love to see those evidences.

If he thinks he did wrong, then he should come clean and apologise for it. Which is what I am after.

If not and if Amir Entezam thinks he did no wrong, then that leaves the door wide open for the families of those who were executed, killed or condemned without legal representations, (as was the case in the revolutionary courts in Iran during their time in the cabinet),  to bring a legal case against him. You may then find most other people who lost family members to these courts at the time when Amir Entezam and Bazargan were in power are not as accommodating as me.  

Also I am not interested in his mistakes before the revolution by aligning himself with the Melli/Eslami faction of the Jebhe Melli as at that time he was not deputy PM and not in a position of power.

To Mash Ghasem....

You don't seem to know much, so there is no point in replying to you.

Mash Ghasem

Well I don't know many of the old names either, I've been away from this site for some time...

Parham , don't be mislead by their avatar names

The "new" Bot Bot Ghandi is the old Khar Magas, Nezami is probably an extension as well. What's the "substance " of their "argument?"

In this day and age, whoever  accuse Amir Entezam as a CIA collaborator and thus deserving of spending 32 years of his life in priosn; you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know where they come from : Khat Emam. Enough said.

Nezami

And so what do you think the likes of Bazargan and Amir Entezam were doing all that time? Playing along?
That's a heavy one you're so lightly putting on the shoulders of such a man, you know...
Perhaps you should see if what you're applying to the rest of Iranians doesn't apply to you first.

More, Amir Entezam didn't leave Bakhtiar's side in JM, it was Bazargan. We both know that turned out to be a big mistake, but then Bakhtiar still believed in the old constitution, and Bazargan didn't anymore. Can't really blame him for that.
And don't forget thatt it was later Bazargan who helped Bakhtiar escape from the country...

Bot Shekan

I said shahollahi because it's usually (and only) shahollahis who can come up with arguments like that! You're not one, good.
But still you seem to accuse someone so lightly -- just like Nezami, except your claim is preposterous. Do you have any proof Amir Entezam collaborated with the CIA at any point in time?

Parham, you are defending him, so you need good arguments.....

Nobody is fabricating anything here. I am talking facts here which you cannot accept, and for some weird reason because you don't like them, or cannot offer anything to justify Amir Entezam's actions, you resort to name calling and call others "Shahollahi" or "fabricators"!!

Let me refresh your memory and Bazargan resigned on November the 6th 1979, after the hostage crisis disagreements with Khomeini. That means he was the head of the government, with Amir Entezam by his side for 9 months. Now you do the math. How many Iranians' Human Rights were violated during that time?? How many were executed during that time?? How many were in Evin and other jails for political reasons??

And now that you are defending Amir Entezam, then you tell us what he did to stop that??

You ask for supporting "arguments".  There are no arguments at all in my comments and what I stated were pure facts.

It was a fact that Amir Entezam turned against Bakthiar at Jebehe Melli when Bakhtiar asked for their support. And Amir Entezam chose Khomeini instead.

It was a fact that during those 9 months in power, Bazargan, Amir Entezam and Co, were overseeing some of the most horrendous Human Rights violations in Iranian history. Did they stop that?? And if they couldn't, did they resign in protest ?? Of course not.

It was a fact that Paveh in particular, and other Kurdish towns and villages were bombarded by the Iranian government in retaliation for Guerilla attacks. One of the main culprits was Sayad Shirazi.

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayad_Shirazi

So I am stating historical facts. But it seems to me that as you have taken it upon yourself to defend Amir Entezam, then you should put up arguments in his defence rather than name calling others just because you don't like the way they think.

For your information I am neither "shahollahi" nor "fabricating" things and I suggest you stick to facts and that way you will have more people giving you credit for your views.  

To reallity-bites....

I personally think that his incarceration is totally unjust and he has been in jail 32 years too long, and I have said that in my previous comments. I firmly believe that his full human rights should be restored, which is by the way more than he did for so many killed under his deputy Premiership. And unfortunately my father was one of those killed during that time. But I am not asking for his head. Far from it. In fact I am against capital punishment, period. And I would like to advocate human rights for everyone, which would mean wanting to see every political prisoner freed.

But what I really like to see is a reconcilliation and this process starts with truth, remorse, forgiveness and a totally unconditional and sincere apology. This should be a begining for tolerance and understading in Iran. Amir Entezam would be a good starting point on this as well.

Although seeing those like Parham here, who resort to name calling others because they don't like their positions, goes to show that a lot of Iranians still have a long way to go in making unbiased judgments.

Wow! Not a mere apologist!

Parham I didn't realise that other than being an apologist you are the Judge, Jury and Executioner all in one!! Such skills shouldn't be wasted in IC, try the IRI they may use it better. But before that let us  see how you support for your argument: 

."..nobody really went in to work "with" the Shah to make things better/turn into democracy except for Bakhtiar (and of course Mossadegh before that). So in case you're referring to Hoveyda and the rest of the crowd, I have a surprise for you: They didn't want democracy!"

Not to mention how you got this idea that I am a Shahollahi?

Please provide evidence - oops I meant idictment.

Nezami

"If I may add, the reality also is that he remained at the top echelons of power for many months when "Iranian airforce bombers" were bombing Iranian cities like Paveh and its villages!! Can you imagine that !!!????? (similar to what gaddafi is doing now). And when scores of people all across our country were being executed, killed, tortured and incarcerated without due legal procedure.
And the reality also is that as deputy PM, and Bazargan's main adviser he made no attempts to push the country towards democracy and respect for human rights, which is one of the foundations of democracy."

Could you provide some support for your argument?
And why do you think Bazargan was ousted? Because Khomeyni didn't like his brand of eye-glasses?

Funny how you fabricate stuff about the man then you say he should pay for the stuff you just fabricated!
At least learn something from the recent history of your country, then debate.

Bot shekan

"Leave him to the CIA, thay have taken care of him till now and will continue to do so :))"

Could you provide support for your argument?

You know, nobody really went in to work "with" the Shah to make things better/turn into democracy except for Bakhtiar (and of course Mossadegh before that). So in case you're referring to Hoveyda and the rest of the crowd, I have a surprise for you: They didn't want democracy!

It's funny how you shahollahis only fabricate bull (and what bull!) when you don't really have anything to say. Seriously, one of the reasons why resistance to this bunch in power (who are not too different from you all, in fact) has failed is because of you people. Az ma goftan.

Nezami

A couple of questions:

first, do you not think 32 years in prison (the longest serving IRI prisoner) is punishment enough for whatever he "might've" done?

Second, who is going to try the man, the IRI? They are the biggest criminals themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly care for anyone who served in an IRI government, but everyone, even the most reactionary and fundamentalist IRI butchers, should be treated humanely when facing justice.

And in Amir-Entezma's case, his very long incarceration is more than sufficient punshiment and the guy should be let out to live the last few years of his life outside an IRI jail.

Amir Entazam Apologists: ozre bad tar az gonah

Parham I don't think you will ever find a second job as Amir-Entezam defence lawyer. With this line of reasoning you are going to send the wretched guy to the gallows:

"Most facts show that the likes of him and Bazargan knew more or less what type of devil they were dealing with in Khomeyni, but went in there nevertheless with the hope of getting things to work the right way."

The very regime for which, and at the time, Amir-Entezam was a spokesman sent hundreds of the formers regime's officials to face the firing squads, most of them not as high ranking as your idol,  while they were pleading their innocence along the same lines:  They knew more or less what type of devil they were dealing with in the Shah, but went in there nevertheless with the hope of getting things to work the right way.

Do the fellow a favor: Leave him to the CIA, they have taken care of him till now and will continue to do so :))

Whether he should be praised or not....

must be decided by a "totally" fair court of law. And this should be after he is released and his human rights fully restored.

If I may add, the reality also is that he remained at the top echelons of power for many months when "Iranian airforce bombers" were bombing Iranian cities like Paveh and its villages!! Can you imagine that !!!????? (similar to what gaddafi is doing now). And when scores of people all across our country were being executed, killed, tortured and incarcerated without due legal procedure.

And the reality also is that as deputy PM, and Bazargan's main adviser he made no attempts to push the country towards democracy and respect for human rights, which is one of the foundations of democracy.

And the reality also is that he only spoke up against human rights
abuses and the regime's wrong doings when his own human rights were
violated.

These are actions of a political opportunist.

Personally I would have a lot more respect for Amir Entezam if he came clean about his own actions and apologised for them. The fact that he has not done that loses him a lot of brownie points.

The reality is...

... he wanted democracy as much as Bakhtiar. Except he thought he'd get it through the new system, Bakhtiar knew that would be impossible.
If anything, he should also be praised for so much resistance and fighting for his compatriots' freedom.
Most facts show that the likes of him and Bazargan knew more or less what type of devil they were dealing with in Khomeyni, but went in there nevertheless with the hope of getting things to work the right way.

There should be no political prisoners anywhere but Amir Entezam

Should be tried in a just court and in a fair manner for his actions during the revolution and its aftermath.

He was the deputy prime minister at a time when many hundreds of people were killed summarily without access to any legal representations and he has a lot to answer for. Those days laid the foundation for today's government and he is now reaping the rewards.

He then lost out in a political battle between Bazargan and the Conservatives.

To my knowledge he still has not apologised for his actions and mistakes and he has not shown remorse to those people whose human rights were violated when he was deputy PM.

It is an outrage to have Amir Entezam in the same video as Bakhtiar as he himself was one of those who went against Bakhtiar at a time when Bakhtiar spoke some of the only sensible words around just before the revolution.

Amir Entezam was an opportinist politician who lost out in a power struggle with a regime he helped create nevertheless he should be freed, if only to face real and fair justice.

Kaash...

allaaveh beh ma'nieh mard, inhaa ma'nieh ensaaniet-ham ra mifahmidan.

And here's the irony, one would never be allowed the opportunity or freedom to watch programs like “Daei Jaan Napelon” on IRI’s national TV, never mind use quotes from it to make one sound witty.

Chera? Chon...

... tooye name-ash neveshte bood "Dear" folani?

Now, when we say you're sounding increasingly "retentive"

as in Anal Retentive, your post speaks for itself; did you like my poem for you bot bot ghandi? You still haven't told us how many years you've spent in jail? now you owe me two apologies, you, you know what, retentive.

قاسم! قاسم کجایی؟

بازم با این آسپیران مشغولی؟

Bot Boti, why don't you spend 32 years in prison

maybe then you find out. Your one liners are getting increasingly "retentive." You still owe me an applogy.

خوب شد معنی مرد رو هم فهمیدیم

هر کی‌ با آمریکا ساخت می‌شه مرد؟