Rosie.

The real McCoy

I am the real deal....an Iranian 100%.

yeah mola

it's quite a match! am watchnig it too. the binaamoosha had a totally fair goal disallowed! 

"Rosie, I'm impressed with your impartiality"

said Hazrate shotor.

"It calls for a kusher bagel with cream cheese!" said I.

"Ahsant! Ahsant!" said he, enthusiastically watching the football match between the two lesser Satans.

rosie jan

this is a great blog! really enjoyed reading the debate despite the fact that you called me 'nilanour' somewhere! :)

i would love to see a frank discussion on what it means to be an american-iranian these days. i have on a number of occasions hinted at the inherent contradictions that must affect many iranians there. can't be easy to be born and bred in the belly of the empire and to try and speak of what is best for iran and iranians. this is how i see the chasm between what iranians inside iran are like and those who essentially live an american version of iranianness - if i can call it that! many american-iranians interpret events in iran and even their discussions with iranians from an american perspective. so a demonstration in iran is automatically interpreted as a movement for regime change. it may or may not be true, but the american perspective on it is hardly the genuine article!

irani irani

i am not sure what you exactly mean by your disappointments with the left, but i remember being extremely annoyed last year when i noticed people like the counterpunch crowd and p.c. roberts in particular making a mockery of the greens when we saw a genuine popular movement for freedom in iran. much of the left were totally disparaging of the events. the uk's guardian was a notable exception that even today continues to concentrate on the greens.

however, by the time 22 bahman came, i realised that most of the left was right. there really was no evidence of election fraud, and the greens did not have enough popular support. well, not of the kind that was needed for a regime change. i still can't stand roberts because i think he will subsume other countries' freedom for his own agenda. and he was a reagan administration figure, if i am not mistaken. so what's that about?!

it is an inescapable fact though that both the left and right will pick and choose what 'freedom' they want for iranians as long as it serves their own agenda. a harsh political reality. it's how that pathetic character could sing 'bomb bomb iran' one minute and then shed crocodile tears for moussavi the next.

Peace

Oh I have no doubt

you willl.

.....

Hi! Rosie,

   I have no idea whose name starts with "J" and ends with "O"!   I only know J. Lo.

J. Lo and I get along great....here is my favorite song of J. Lo:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYfkl-HXfuU

Please take care!

P.S. I will work from 7:35 am to 12:35 pm.......so I may get into trouble in the afternoons on IC! LOL!

Okay, fine, Yolanda

Just think about what I said. Good luck with your work. I have to wind down here too. I have a lot of things to take care of.

But could you just tell me one thing...one liiittle thing...the ferocious one, the mean ferocious one...

her name didn't start with a 'j' and end with an 'o', did it?

lol

Robin

.....

Hi! Rosie,

    Thank you for your long posts and insightful analyses! I hope you have a blessed day!

Please take care!

P.S.  I will start working on Monday, so I need to cut down my time on IC.  I got this whole week off.

Yolanda, neh Gazeh, neh Lobnan

cv

Okay, Yolanda, I'll try again. The issue I brought up was hypocrisy and how people usually don't tell the whole truth to themselves, let alone to others. I also said that if they're lying to themselves, it's not a moral hypocricy. Implying that if they have a clear opportunity to see it and refuse to, then it is. And I said that as non-Iranians we should try to be the most objective.This was in the context of this 'gaza.com' issue and Mola posting about the Gaza flotilla.

So, for starters, I'll ask you again what you think of Irani Irani's post I copied belo titled 'Arabs'. Not what he said he meant after I asked him. What you think of his post as he wrote it. You didn't answer me.  I asked you if you thought OnlyIran's blog 

//iranian.com/main/blog/onlyiran/its-not-about-silencing-you-its-about-hypocrisy-and-its-about-priorities 

essentially advocating an intensive harrassment campaign on any blog posted about Gaza was fair. What it said about this cause if OnlyIran himself mentioned that Jahanshah featured all those blogs. I believe your answer was 'neh Gazeh, neh Lobnan.'

Yolanda, on a blog of Shazdeh's you were very enthusiastic about his suggestion to ignore all the 'pro-IRI' 'monkeys'. So which is it? Harrass or ignore?

Shazdeh wrote:

Here in IC the pro-IRI "brothers" and "sisters" are using the same tactic, with maximum efficiency. They put up a stupidly titled blog like, "100 reasons why IRI will last for another 500 years". They then wait for a bunch of angry ordinary Iranians to jump in and start shooting! If we shoot "dirty", then it is easy - our comments are deleted and after a couple of "warnings", our accounts are blocked too.

On the other hand, if the poor humane Iranian tries to control him/her self and not curse the IRI demons; then they are dragged into endless "debates" with the fully financed 24/7 IRI troopers. Those monkeys are mostly paid by the hour, and enjoy the lovely sound of the cash machine, as the debate wears on and on. Finally, the ordinary Iranian has to go to sleep, go to work or pick up his kid from school - while wave after wave of IRI troopers are replacing one another to keep up the "holy jihad

You wrote:

Wow! OMG! Super interesting blog and comments!..I can't believe this blog has not been featured yet!

Yolanda, the reason it wasn't featured is because not only was it paranoiac (you are aware that a lot of people here are paranoid, aren't you?) and filled with baseless accusations, it also accuses Jahanshah of being in collusion with paid IRI mercenaries. Do you agree with Shazdeh about this, and if so, why would Jahanshah have featured it? And if not, what makes it such a great blog?

And if Jahanshah's not in collusion with these mercenaries, how do you know they're mercenaries? And who are 'they', anyway? Irani Irani said the two groups of people I named below here are basically the same, from Abarmard to 'IRI'. Do you think Abarmard's paid? And if not, do you think it's fair for someone to make accusations about some...'them'...without addressing specific people when it may implicate people they didn't intend? Do you think Mola's paid? He's probably reading this. Will you tell him yes or no? (His blog by the way was called TEN Reasons Why the IRI Will Last FIFTY Years, not 100/500, and that is no joke when you're making such serious accusations, and Molah was NOT happy about his 50 year prognosis either).

You also wrote (the dots are your own punctuation):

I try to keep a safe distance from them......be very honest with you.....I can't even tell their genders......initially I thought the person who attacked me is a guy....and then later I realized it is woman.....but this woman is more macho than macho men....absolutely impossible to act gentle or lady-like......she thinks she is cool, brave, smart......but she is really rude, mean, arrogant, and ferocious.....

Are you seriously implying that you can always tell who in your own perceived 'camp' is male or female, or that none of the women in that camp are 'rude, mean, arrogant, and ferocious'? That has definitely not been my experience.

_______________

The Gaza issue is not as simple as just being about IRI's preferred distraction (which it is). It's also considered by most people on the international 'Left' ('progressive') movement, rightly or wrongly, the most important geopolitcal issue. Since years. In the current Iranian context, there is a historic factor which led up to a lot of this mess. It wast the two Shahs' muzzling of and denigration (in varied degrees) of traditional Islam, and strategically propagating a 'return' to a 'pure' Persian culture. And I'm sure you know this. And I'm sure you know that among the people who support blogs like Shazdeh's and OnlyIran's, there are those who are anti-Arab to a point of racism and who believe that once 1400 years of Islamic culture is eradicated from Iran, everything will be just fine. And they say horrible things about Islam and Arabs. (Of course, they've never advocated tearing down all the beautiful Islamic buildings). There's only one Iran, but a lot of people want to make like there are two. And when those in the non-Reformist anti-IRI camp come with this ideology and the language they use, they are not exempt from blame in polarizing those in the other 'camp(s)' into pro-Arab causes. Or are they exempt?

Yolanda, twice you didn't acknowledge my comments about how I felt it was somewhat hypocritical for people who've never given enough of a damn about workers' or regionalists' persecutions for there to have been more than a handful of mentions of them for three years to be suddenly posting tens since the recent executions without one single moment of self-reflection as to why they never said boo before.  I showed you the threads. On one of them you were the only one who commented. I don't know about you but I find that creepy.

____________________

 'Neh Gazeh, neh Lobnan' contains a very powerful message. But it doesn't answer all the concerns I brought up. The core issue being hypocrisy.

Oh, Irani Irani,

we are talking about things that are too deep and painful and complex and get too close to the heart of the matter! Why can't we just hang out on the thread of the Tajik girl and post Googoosh links? I'm sure Kadivar will participate.

But seriously. I am writing something. It is so hard. This really is a whole can of worms. Could you please for now just answer me about Counterpunch, when you say the articles 'in the past several months to a year have been regime apologias by Press TV peple or CASMII people', how long is it really? Because there's a BIG difference between several months and a year. And it is very relevant to the topic at hand about the 'Gazacentrists' here.

Also was there ever a time you supported CASMII, and if so when did that stop and why? You know that Foaad (The Geek) is on their board, don't you?

As regards the deleted posts, you're right. Who knows? Just repost the next time you're deleted, in a milder form if necessary.

ps I should've remembered it was Mammad you had that long discusson with a couple of days ago and that he was definitely not among the 'Gazacentric' group.

To Rosie

I it would be very enlightening for you to say how is Mammad different from the rest of the people I mentioned? 

He is willing to criticize to a considerable extent some of the IRI's crimes, atrocities, lies, wrongdoings, etc (I don't agree with his support for Mousavi, Khatami, etc--as they are part and parcel of the IRI, but we agree to disagree). Also, he does not live in a Israel/Palestine-centric universe, like the others (which is perfectly natural if you are Palestinian or Arab, but for an Iranian strikes me as intellectually honest. There is NOTHING wrong with saying that you should fix your own people's problems before worrying about other people's issues--especially when IRI has so MANY problems of its own).

Also I did make two separate groups. Would you agree that there is a distinction between them? 

I think there is a distinction of sorts, but IMO they belong to the same "camp" but tend to emphasize different things (one focuses on IRI being the most progressive country in the Mideast and the other on what everyone in the Mideast, esp Israel, is doing EXCEPT for the IRI). I find a symbiotic propaganda relationship between the two "camps", as it were.

My question to you is when you talk about 'the quintessential Arab' and 'a truly pathetic culture and group of nations who are literally the most hopeless and unreformable gang of criminals on the planet', do you mean Arabs as a type of person or their leaders? And if the first, do you think this is a bit racist, and if the second, why didn't you make this clearer?

Let me be clearer now: I am NOT implying that there is something intrinsically wrong with Arabs as people or that they are a "criminal" people. People are people, and I've traveled enough to other countries (including one Arab country) to know that most people everywhere are decent human beings. Arab leaders (all of them, whether pro- or anti-American) are a worthless bunch, and I think Arabs know that better than any other. But from what I have witnessed of Arab political culture (in English or in translation, since I do not speak Arabic), it seems that it is truly, truly dysfunctional in a way that few others in the year 2010 are. Perhaps hopeless was too harsh. But, it seems that a HUGE part of the Arabs' fixation (and yes, I know I am generalizing) is Israel, Israel, Israel.

Rosie, I am very much a leftist going through some disillusionment. I know the leftist walk and talk to a good extent, cause I used to do it myself. I still will visit Counterpunch.org everyday, though the crap that they have on Iran (when they have it, which is not all that often) actually has contributed to my disillusionment with some aspects of the Left. I daresay that a large majority (perhaps all) the articles written by Iranians or about Iranians on Counterpunch in the past several months to a year have been regime apologias by Press TV people or CASMII people--how loathsome is that?

BTW, I don't think my particular post with those articles had anything offensive. Maybe, I didn't hit the write button on that one. Who knows. 

II, Yolanda

II, Well good, I'm glad you wouldn't include Mammad, because I wasn't sure whether to include him either, so we are somewhere on the same page. Midwesty is not so regular here. I'm also glad you imply that the people mentioned 'propagandize' to different extents and in different ways, so they are individuals. Now, just to hone in on things, it would be very enlightening for you to say how is Mammad different from the rest of the people I mentioned? That would do more than anything else to clarify just what you find so objectionable about the others.

Also I did make two separate groups. Would you agree that there is a distinction between them? (Not necessary to elaborate if you agree).

________________

Regarding your deleted posts, well I don't know why they were deleted. But I can ASSURE you it was not because of the links. No way. One thing is if you click on 'reply' to respond to someone's post and it gets deleted, yours will too, automatically.

Having said that, I was planning in the more detailed post I mentioned I'm writing to you and Yolanda, to link a post of yours from today and ask both of you a question about it. The thread has been closed because it is ugly but here is your post:

//iranian.com/main/comment/reply/111607/307688

by Irani Irani on Thu Jun 24, 2010 08:46 AM PDT

Perhaps we could take the boasting and anti-Western barking of Ey Bi Savad (aka Nasrallah Military Forum) a bit more seriously if HE DIDN'T LIVE IN THE WEST - LOOLLLL!

They will fight the holy Jihad against the Zionists and Crusaders--while living in the West, of course. Just like the Arabs' constant boasting of "throwing the Jews into the sea", making Tel Aviv burn, raining down missiles and destroying Israel, defeating the U.S., etc, etc--these are all empty words of a truly pathetic culture and group of nations who are literally the most hopeless and unreformable gang of criminals on the planet.  

________

My question to you is when you talk about 'the quintessential Arab' and 'a truly pathetic culture and group of nations who are literally the most hopeless and unreformable gang of criminals on the planet', do you mean Arabs as a type of person or their leaders? And if the first, do you think this is a bit racist, and if the second, why didn't you make this clearer?

_________________

You see, for me your post did not mitigate the ugliness of the now closed thread.  So getting back to the two deleted ones, maybe  they had something objectionable (at least to The Moderator). Since you haven't been here long and you haven't posted much, you should know it's no big deal, what we usually do when a post gets deleted is to just repost a toned down version, and if we don't think it needed toning down to begin with, we just say so.

The whinier the better.

________________

Now, more or less same question as above to Yolanda specifically:

Yolanda, what do you think about Irani Irani's post on Arabs?

Dear Rosie

Yes, I would say that for the most part you got those characters correct, but I would not include Mammad. I have my own disagreements with him, but I wouldn't put him in the same crowd. I haven't seen enough from Midwesty to form an opinion either way. Bottom line: in a free country, everyone is entitled to their opinion, including those who propagandize (to varying degrees and in somewhat different manners) on behalf of a regime that denies Iranians' the right to voice their opinion (these folks may or may not see the irony in that).

As far as the role of the IRGC-trained Badr Brigade in killing Palestinians in Iraq, I posted a link to a NY Times article a couple hours ago, and my post was taken down. Why? In any event, the author is Nir Rosen, and it is a long and detailed piece about the plight of Palestinians in Iraq at the hands of Shia militias. I also posted a link to an al Jazeera dispatch on the Lebanese assault on the Nahr el-Bared refugee camp, but that was removed. And yes, after its takeover of Gaza, Hamas tortured and killed a number of Palestinians from rival Palestinian factions, e.g. Fatah.

Irani Irani, Yolanda (please excuse the formatting)

So since everything written here is a matter of public record and I have seen these conversations so many times, In addition to Mola, I believe you mean Q, Nilanour Parsi, Abarmard, Mammad and to some extent Midwesty. I believe you also mean Jaleho, No Fear, Sargord, and Iran Military Forum, along with a few minor voices who don't count that much although together they make a lot of noice (IRI, IVA, etc).

Please let me know if I'm wrong about any of them or if I missed any of the main players. __________________________

______________________ __________

I am working on a detailed reply to Yolanda, but also you, based on the exchange between you two, and bearing in mind that the whole thing started with my reply to Yolanda about the perennial gaza.com complaint she voiced, and my mentioning the need for a non-Iranian to maintain as much objectivity as possible on this forum. I also said that most people in general only see what they want to to prop up their own arguments and that it is usually not intentional but it is hypocrisy nonetheless.

...

Iranians are fed up with IRI's propaganda and diversion tactics.

Ne "ghaze", na lobnan, janam fadaye IRAN!!!

Yolanda, you are more than welcome

I respect your ability to remain so cheerful. And you are right, Press TV's goons like George Galloway and Yvonne Ridley are fixtures of the Long LIve Palestine/Death to Israel gang. Naturally, these rotten elements have their own little Amen Corner on Iranian.com. Islamists really do like America's freedom of speech (and yes, they too are entitled to that freedom), but they kill people who dare criticize that cancer of a regime called IRI. Take care.

Haji Mola-yeh Groupie

The readers of Iranian.com don't need me or anyone else to "save" them. They already know how to spot an IRI Cyber Groupie from a mile away. It starts with "Beautiful Gaza" and ends with "Beautiful Gaza"--and has a lot of gibberish about IRI's being the product of its times and the most advanced, progressive country in the Mideast and the U.S. being on the verge of collapse--I think you get the point. You have yourself a great day, Haji.

Dear "I ran! Iran!" and "yolanda"

I'm so glad there are people like you around here who are trying to save the innocent readers of iranian dotcom from these AyRab loving Islamist runnig characters. You've contributed so much to our understanding of the grave situation that the world faces during your short stay here. Specially you "I ran!, I ran!" who've been here for only 3 weeks and a few days but your contributions has been great. I Thank you, and  Hazrate shotor thanks you. 

.....

Thank you, Irani Irani, for the great post!

Some of the folks are trying to make IC look like Press TV.......but no thanks!........I can visit Press TV on my own.....and I have to filter out 90% of garbage there!

The point of "Palestine" for IRI is to distract attention

The most vocal supporters of the "Long Live Palestine" and "Death to Israel" bunch on Iranian.com are the ones who have a very tender place in their hearts for the IRI. Our friend, Haji Mola Nasredeen, is just one case in point--there are others, if you wish me to name names. Palestine is the favorite propaganda distraction of the murderous IRI dictatorship. Other than fanatical Islamists and a certain breed of "radical" Leftist Fellow Travelers, the issue resonates less and less with many Iranians. When they hear Palestine, they see the face of the dictator Khamenei with his kaffiyeh around his neck. If these people were concerned about Palestinians, at least they should mention that the IRGC-trained Badr Brigade ethnically cleansed Palestinians in Iraq or that Hamas has tortured and killed its Palestinian opponents. But that doesn't accord with the propaganda purposes of the IRI, and these folks take their lead from the likes of Press TV, IRIB and its announcers.

Rosie, humanbeing,

As you have mentioned: there are many angles to the Palestinian question, political, emotional etc. 

thanks rosie (ps molla)

thanks rosie for the summer school lesson on jaspers. i learn something new on ic every day. no irony!

now i'll try to take this and see where i belong on the guilt ladder. somewhere high i fear. and then go and do more in situ.

molla, this iranophile DOES think palestinians are human beings! see my comment from beginning of this thread.

Mola, Yolanda

by Mola Nasredeen on Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:52 PM PDT

some (who themselves declare that they are not Iranian) hate Palestinians so much while declare their love for Iranians here. Aren't Palestinians human beings too? Probably not as far as these so called Iranophiles are concerned. It's fishey and it stinks bad.

Yolanda, the 'exhaustive' research I did isn't the reason I linked that labor blog for you. I hope you understand that I'm trying to explain to you that the people who constantly ridicule others for their commitment to Palestine haven't all exactly broken their backs on all Iranian human rights issues. They had a hierarchy of the oppressed. They had preferences. Labor figured very low and regionalists not at all on this site. You were far more concerned about the Kurds than they were a year ago.

The Palestinian issue is considered by all in the world to be one of the most important issues. The attack on the flotilla was an episode of seismic dimensions in the world press. SEISMIC. Before the Uprising it wasn't taboo here to talk about anything but Iran. Some people here also see IRI support of Palestine as a defense issue for guaranteeing Iran's security in the region. It's not as simple as it looks.

On the OnlyIran blog when he trashed all those people, he also mentioned that all their blogs were featured. What does that say about Jahanshah's views on the subject?

Last year during the invasion of Gaza no one talked about practically anything else for a month here. And the question wasn't AT ALL should they or shouldn't they talk about it. The question was whose side were you on? And the vast majority here were passionately pro-Palestinian. Now the political demographics here have shifted. A lot. But just because there was an uprising in Tehran doesn't mean that people who are commited to Palestine aren't "allowed" to blog on it.

On his blog, OnlyIran was basically saying you're traitors, and yes, it's your freedom of speech right to blog about Palestine but it's 'our' right to harrass you on your blogs. I feel for him, his frustration. I really do. But my point to you was why was I (of all people, I can't even read Persian) the one doing the research on the human rights abuses of labor and regionalists? Why not him? 

Do you really think the blog he wrote was fair?

//iranian.com/main/blog/onlyiran/its-not-about-silencing-you-its-about-hypocrisy-and-its-about-priorities

----------

Molla, It isn't 'fishy'.  Why don't you try to explain it to her? You can do it better than me. She wants to learn things.

ps Yolanda, it's a lovely video. Yes, it reminds me very much of the Bahai.

Robin

I, I, I, I, I,

Been to Iran, hell I was born in that beautiful land, that's why I can never become the president of the United states :(.........

......

Hi! Rosie,

    Thank you for your exhaustive research on the topic! Thank you! I read about Kamangar, he was a great teacher......I can't believe that teachers can get executed in Iran......unbelievable......Thank you for your posts in Anvar' blog, too. I found a song, which talks about anti-war, anti-nukes, peace, love, harmony, and freedom....the song seems to sum up the Bahai principles.....it was sung by Omid and another guy......Omid has a heavenly voice....I got a CD of his from a Persian store....his singing is marvelous, here is the song....sorry that I decided to post here 'cause Anvar's blog is static now. Omid looks like Persian James Bond......he never took off his sunglasses in the entire song....not even one time......he fought in the I/I war .......my Calculus teacher told me.....

P.S. Thanks for your blog.....it feels like a reunion! LOL!

 Yolanda, Hypocrisy and human rights

Okay Yolanda, I'm stepping on thin ice for you but here goes.

First of all, forget about Iran Vataneman. Nobody takes him seriously, not even the Ahmadinejadists. He's an embarrassment to them. Well, that part was easy. Moving along.

In spring of last year I started looking into the labor movement in Iran. I found out by chance about a huge labor purge that was going on by chance. I happened on it in a non-Iranian global trade union website. Kamangar was a huge issue then too  I wrote this blog. (It's not very well-written. Sorry).

//iranian.com/main/blog/rosie-roxy-roshan/striking-iran-0

The labor purge at that time was directed against labor activists in Kurdestan in general, and the Haft Tapeh sugar workers in Kuzestan. Labor is most active in those two places because there's a spirit of protest due to the regional movments. So once I started being aware of the persecution of labor, I couldn't not be aware of the regionalists.

Yolanda, do you know how long Kamangar was rotting in jail? I didn't find out about him here. Go ahead. Site search Farzad Kamangar before last month. See how many hits you get. I got about five, four from the same blogger, with his name on a list of imprisoned Kurdish prisoners. Here's one with a staggering number of comments: 

//iranian.com/main/blog/sayeh-hassan/after-ehsan-fatahiyan-another-activist-fasih-yasamani-has-been-executed

Here's another on a hunger strike of Kurdish prisoners of conscience  from before the Tehran uprising. Notice the huge rallying cry of support.

 //iranian.com/main/node/40227

Haft Tapeh was the only 'legal' worker's union in Iran at that time (except for the Tehran bus workers, and that union had been virtually destroyed) and they were being decimated. Targeted at the same time as the Kurdish labor activists. They had had several very large protests in Ahwaz over a couple of years. I found ONE blog on it on this website. By someone from Ahwaz.

I found a comment somewhere by a popular blogger on some  thread saying you never hear anything about organized labor because it's illegal so there is none.

And now  there was a public hanging and everyone is beating their chests about the Kurds and the labor movement. As so they should. It's, just that until the Uprising, no one here gave a sh-t about regionalists or labor. Because Nationalists are Nationalists, and labor is not capital.

There was one exception, though. Osanloo. The head of the Tehran Bus Union. Site search hm. You'll find tons of hits for him. From the time he was a famous cause for the international labor movement. He was a big celebrity here at that time. Try to find follow-ups on him as he languished, tortured, in prison.

And Rigi? Jundalah? Let's not even go there.

-----------------

The non-Reformist anti-IRI people have always accused the Reformists of being hypocrites. The Reformists tended to be on the Left, and so before Obama, they downplayed human rights violations in Iran, because they thought it might get bombed. And that's a lot of the reason for the focus on Palestinan rights and the silence on Iranian rights. Their geopolitical 'anti-Colonialist' perspective.

And then there was Obama, so they opened their mouths, and then it was June 12, and they were all Green they could scream about human rights in Iran with a megaphone. And now here we are. The Left/Reformists are now once again Gaza loving hypocrites according to the non-Reformist group. And they're right in a lot of ways.  But they are accusing them of being hypocrites loudly and viciously and constantly...

when they didn't even know that Haft Tapeh HAD a sugar factory  Or if they did they just didn't care.  

Now let us all go and pray together for Kamangar.

hb, jaspers

from a review on Amazon of 'The Question of German Guilt'. 

//www.amazon.com/Question-German-Perspectives-Continental-Philosophy/dp/0823220699

Shortly after the Nazi government fell, a philosophy professor at Heidelberg University lectured on a subject that burned the consciousness and conscience of thinking Germans. "Are the German people guilty?" These lectures by Karl Jaspers, an outstanding European philosopher, attracted wide attention among German intellectuals and students; they seemed to offer a path to sanity and morality in a disordered world. Jaspers, a life-long liberal, attempted in this book to discuss rationally a problem that had thus far evoked only heat and fury. Neither an evasive apology nor a wholesome condemnation, his book distinguished between types of guilt and degrees of responsibility. He listed four categories of guilt: criminal guilt (the commitment of overt acts), political guilt (the degree of political acquiescence in the Nazi regime), moral guilt (a matter of private judgment among one's friends), and metaphysical guilt (a universally shared responsibility of those who chose to remain alive rather than die in protest against Nazi atrocities).

I said that someone who refused to see anything that didn't prop up their own side of the story in political questions (in particular) was not a personal, but a metaphysical hypocrite. I didn't say 'moral' because I was talking about the people who don't realize they're doing it. Which are about three/quarters of the people three/quarters of the time. Nothing to do with choosing whether to live or die or anything like that..just a kind of hypocrisy by dint of being human and alive...

I'm a little surprised you weren't familiar with Jaspers' categories though. He wasn't just a philosopher, btw, he was a psychiatrist, and he was Hannah Arendt's mentor (as you probably know), and married to a Jewish woman as well. QGG isn't a really a work of philosopy. Or if it is, it's more of a kind of social philosphy. I mean, Being and Time it's not. It's quite readable.

Well, Boom, I'd written a reply to your last post,

trying to inject, shall we say, a litte humor, and I'd told you that I'd reply to you more fully later.

But I see that the essence of a lot of it has already been answered.

I'll write you an e-mail later and explain my feelings on the matter as clearly as I possibly can.

Boys will be boys.

Rosie

.....

Hi! fooladi,

 Thank you for your post about the 5 executed Kurdish brothers and sister. I read that

//www.middle-east-online.com/english/opinion/?id=38973

they were very courageous and positive when they were in jail....they lifted up Majid Tavakoli's spirit.....some of them studied University Physics exam.....one person was planning his wedding....they tried to live their lives to the fullest, even though they were on death row.....I am truly humbled by their bravery!

It saddened me to hear that an Iranian feels these 5 people deserve to be executed!

Kamangar is definitey my hero! He was a great teacher!