Soosan Khanoom

Reality Bites

According to Wikipedia, 1,176,000 of North Vietnamese, and 220,357 of South Vietnamese died in the war just during the war with the US. That adds up to 1.3 million. At the same time, 1.770,000 of Vietnamese in both North and South were injured. That adds up to 3 million casualty that is commonly referred to. 

Now, first of all, this does not include the number of Vietnamese killed and injured in the 1950s during its war of independence with France, and the famous French defeat at Dien Bien Fu. Secondly, we know that the US used agent organe extensively in Vietname. The question is, how many of 1.8 million injured have had a useful life after the war, or how many of them survived say 10 years?

But, even if the numbers of exaggerated, that is not the point. The point is, how many people have been killed by nations that consider themselves Christian, and how many by Muslims?

And, who provoked Iraq to attack Iran? The U.S. Who supported it? The U.S., France, Britain and the Soviet Union.

Regarding south and central America, I suggest you check various sources. How many were killed by Pinochet, and how many disappeared? Pinochet was a church going dictator. How many were killed in El Salvador during its civil war, where one side was extreme right supported by Reagan, and the opposite side was the democratic movement? Check Guatemala and Honduras also.

And, then, an extremist Prophet, in order to "refute" what I said, claims that Islam is a cult!

These are inconvenient truths for some (not you though).

Mammad

Shepesh

I am very happy with my own personal life. No anger; I do not need to blame anyone.  I do miss Iran but I probably got it better than 98 % of others. What angers me is the attitude of man Muslims.

Now if people want to practice their religion the way you say fine. If people want to "practice" their religion in private who am I to stop it! But what happens when they attack me for eating in Ramadan. What about when they beat my daughter for not having a veil. If they leave me alone I leave them alone. If they mess with me then I hit back a hunrderd times as hard.

I will share an experience. I was at a company party in California in Ramadan. They had a lunch buffet. I was eating a sandwich and having a beer. An Egyptian colleague came to me all red faced. Started giving me a hard time for not being a "good Muslim". I told him it was none of his business and sent him off. We never spoke again. Now this is in the USA. He was one person and could not do anything to me. I shudder to think what he would have done with gang of "his brothers" to back him up. That and experiences like it made me think as I do now. I used to think more like you do. This was not the only such incident.

VPK

I suppose we have different philosophies in life. I ask myself: How is time better spent and more productive? To support the rights of people to practice their religions peacefully under a Democratic Iran, or to preach hate for specific religions?  

Go anywhere in the world and talk to anyone balanced, and they will say religion is being USED for evil by idiots who want power. I can understand the anger of everyone on this site who try to blame religion for their problems or their losses, but that will not get us anywhere.  Frankly it is noone's business what religion people practice. Noone has to justify to another their beliefs as long as they practice it in peace. This is not being an apologist, but democratic.

Shepesh

• I am not here for a popularity contest. I know my positions will be disliked. So if you find me disagreeable I accept it.
• My argument is not with you. It is with Islam. I applaud your defense of Baha'i. Proving that you do not have the Muslim mentality. I don't even know if you are a Muslim. Not all Muslims follow the Islamic mentality. Many of them are normal people who just happened to be born into Islam. Therefore they pay lip service to Islam. I know even some sane "devout" Muslims. They just partition off the crazy parts. Now is that really Islam when they disregard all the intolerance required by Islam? 
• Regarding your positions. I said before I am not here to criticize you; but Islam. If you chose to defend Islam then we get in an argument. I still say: Muslims are raised to think they are right. They are raised to think in terms of "Islam good" ; "others bad". How else do you explain "najis"?A Muslims is not even supposed to touch a non Muslim because they are "unclean". Now is that being tolerant?
• Regarding "troll". The definition says: someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community. Nothing I say is off the topic or trying to get an emotional response. In fact I want to get a rational response. When I call Islam what it is I do it based on logic not emotion. As for relevance it is totally on topic.
• Regarding the Baha'i. I have never attacked them. A person I know has got in a lot of argument with Bahai. That is their business. I am not involved. The only thing I defended is his right to have his say. In fact I have generally supported Baha'i and still do.

What is a "moderate" Muslim?

I don't think there is such a thing as a  "moderate" muslim or for that matter a "moderate" Christian, Jew, Bahai or whatever religion. You are either a Muslim, a Christian, a Bahai, etc. and follow their practices, principles and laws or you should not call yourself one if you do not like to be associated with certain extreme elements of your faith.

The problem with Islam nowdays, true or not, is that it portrays a violent, backward and women suppresing image to the outside of Muslim world.

One can call himself/herself a moderate Muslim, a concervative Muslim, a fanatic Muslim or whatever but it does not change the image others have about the religion.

To: Soosan

Phobia is an irrational fear. The so called 'islamophobia' has NOT been recognized by psychiatrists.  Meanwhile below are a few documented acts of kindness by muslims within the past few days:

March 5, 2011. Nearly 4000 muslims attacked Christian homes near Cairo:
//www.aina.org/news/20110304222016.htm

March 3, 2011. Ethiopian Muslims Burn Down Five Churches
//www.persecution.org/2011/03/03/developing-ethiopian-muslims-burn-down-five-churches-more-attacks-feared/

2011.03.04 (Nowshera, Pakistan) - Sunnis detonate a powerful bomb at a Sufi mosque during Friday prayers, taking down ten worshippers.

2011.03.03 (Hangu, Pakistan) - Women and children are among the casualties when a suicide car bomber detonates along a city street.

2011.03.03 (Haditha, Iraq) - A suicide bomber wades into a crowd at a bank and sends eight customers to Allah.

2011.03.02 (Frankfurt, Germany) - A gunmen yells 'Allah Akbar' and opens fire on unarmed US soldiers on a bus, killing two.

2011.03.02 (Karachi, Pakistan) - A seminary teacher is shot to death by sectarian rivals.

2011.03.02 (Ramadi, Iraq) - One victim bleeds out after a suicide bomber attacks a rival mosque.

My suggestion to you: It would be better if you listed a few muslim governed countries that allow their citizens freedoms that we enjoy in the Western societies.  By so doing you are presenting a valid case of why we should NOT be fearful of muslims.

You do not take criticism well VPK

A while ago I made a comment that you are one of the most civil people on this site. But I was wrong. You insult with accusing of "Muslims mentality" and bigotry if you are challenged.  

Please read definition of Troll and I have outlined the statement that made me make a response to your inflammatory phrase. You are also trying to manipulate the public against my post saying that I react violently because of my religion, which is dishonest. I just object to phrases that attempt to divide a community instead of getting better understanding of our real issues.

I suppose it is also my Muslim Mentality that set me apart defending bahais against the daily onslaught they received from someone on this site that you were so keen to defend.

Shepesh

The difference of me and a Muslim is that I take criticism. I do not react violently. I respect your opinion while disagreeing with it.

The business about millions is irrelevant. Millions thought Earth was flat. It was not. In time people realized the reality. I do a small part in the battle against ignorance. I have managed to turn at least a dozen people away from Islam in my life. 

I believe a while ago you were telling people Iranians should leave Islam and take up Zoroastrian religion. What makes you think people should go along with your preferences of Spirituality? 

No I did not. You missed my point. I said that I rather avoid all organized religion. I suggested that if people want a an organized religion there are better ones than Islam. I then suggested the consider Zoroastrianism or Christianity. Unfortunately the Muslim mentality mixes up "suggestion" and "demand". Because there are no suggestions in Islam. It is always a demand. So people get confused over other peoples suggestions.

Sorry but I disagree with your logic VPK

When you make statements like this be prepared to be told the truth.

"The virus that is Islam knows no racial boundaries and infects all races. "

I put Iran's problems down to bad leadership and interpretation of Quoran. While you are attacking a religion worshipped by millions. I think it is a waste of time attacking others beliefs on the net, I believe a while ago you were telling people Iranians should leave Islam and take up Zoroastrian religion. What makes you think people should go along with your preferences of Spirituality?

What I feel is sad is wounded people turning to hate. I also with you peace, but without sarcasm.

Well Shepesh

You said it yourself. If Islam had not done actions it has in 1400 years. I would not be so anti Islam if Islam would leave people alone. If they would not have turned my nation into a backwards hell.

Islam is reaping the rewards of its history of 1400 years oppression. If Muslims want a change in perception they better start with themselves. I suggest they listen to you. They won't listen to me. 

If you find me annoying that is just too bad. Regarding "troll" you may keep the insults out of this discussion. Soosan Khanoom and I disagree but at least we try to keep it civil. You should try the same way.

Peace :-)

Just keep Religion out of Politics

And give everyone the right to chose their own religion if they need one. Then you will not get bitter people and anti-religion trolls who try to put ideas down. To me this type of person is as irritating as an Extremist.

Thank you

Dear friends Rea and Reality-Bites for shedding some light. None of us are denying major numbers of people killed. We just want to numbers to be real not made up stuff. I am tired of Sovied style proppaganda that multiplies any "Western" caused casualties by 3. Then blame all deaths on America no matter who was responsible.

There is a lot more to the Bosnia trageday. I won't get into it. Just enough to say that Mammad's version ain't exactly right.

Mammad

"6. Bosnia: 250,000 by the Serbian fascist Christian"

It was a bloody war and the Bosniaks certainly paid the heaviest price. Nevertheless one should get his figures straight before presenting them.

Firstly, according to the Sarajevo Research and Documentation Center the total number of casualties: 97,000 (2/3 Bosniaks).

Secondly, it is the "X-fascists" who stopped the slaughter by intervening militarily, albeit late.

Mamad

Merely in the interests of factual accuracy, the number of Vietnamese dead, and this is the HIGHEST estimate, is put at 1.1m. It's still a huge number, but far below the highly exaggerated figure of 3m you stated.

By way of comparison, the number of dead in the Iran-Iraq war (between two Muslim nations, let's keep in mind), at its highest, is put at 1.3m.

Sources:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War

I'm not here to defend the US, because, in the past it supported despotic regimes in places like South America (as you pointed out) in its global rivalry with USSR. However, your claims of "hundreds of thousand" dead at the hands of the US is also open to question. While it supported dictatorial regimes, for which it deserves criticism, the US itself did not fight wars there (the exception being the invasion of Grenada, which is in the Caribbean, not South America). Furthermore, many people in various South American conflicts were and continue to be killed at the hands of leftist groups like the FARC, the Shining Path etc.

Mammad

I tell you: Soosan Khanoom is right ; but it goes both ways. Neither one of us is going to convince the other. So I will say my thing for the benefit ot others.

• Trying to convince me that Islam is "good" or even "ok" is not going to work. I have tasted the poison. It is like trying to convince someone to disbelieve their own 50+ years of experience. I have been there; seen it and experie3nced it. Your words are not going to change my life experience. So you see the problem?
• The Vietnam war is old news. It had nothing to do with God or religion. It had to to with superpower rivalry. If you don't know that you are not fit to comment on it. Go read history. As for the numbers: That is not the point. Any people killed in war is bad. I just don't like made up numbers to push an anti-American agenda. I do not approve of those killings but I still pick life in the West over life in the "civilize" Islamic world any day.
• My comment about living in the USA is not silly. It goes to the core of what we call "integrity". Which is living according to your own standards. You live in the USA right? Do you pay into the system. Do you contribute to it. If so then you are a part of it. If you are so against it then you should do the honorable thing and move somewhere that is more to your liking. I find it hypocritical for people to live in the USA; yet have such contempt for it. Just like I do not live in IR as much as I could. Because I disapprove of living undre a terrorist Islamic regime.
• As for the "Racist" that is total nonsense. We all know Islam is not a race but a cult. So don't pull that *** on me. I am against Islam not any race. The virus that is Islam knows no racial boundaries and infects all races.

Mehrdad ,  I know it is not

Mehrdad , 

I know it is not much related but some how the discussions in the reply section got us into it .... that was my reply to Mammad actually ..... I may just start a new blog on the Soros thingy subject or  ignore it .. anyway 

The link that I posted was from Onion news ... it is just a joke ... they are so great sometimes one really has hard time to distinguish the difference ....

That onion news kind of reminds me of the retarded Fox news ....I am not sure if what they are saying is really a news or joke .......

but check ONION news website on line it is the coolest thing ever ...

This comment is not about the content of this blog or the other

Just wanted to say that the youtube video at the end of the blog was freaking funny. Was that for real or a hoax? Any body know?

Mehrdad

...............................

Duplicated ! 

And one more thing you want

And one more thing you want real prophet here you have it .. 

Soros and  Murdoch run the world.  When he says something usually gets done unless moon and sun kind of rearrange them selves around some thing up there !

"Mr Soros  predicted the Iranian regime would be overthrown in the "bloodiest of the revolutions".

Mammad

I do not think so anything you or I say make those who have already made their verdicts to change their mind . But I truly am thankful for the facts that your are bringing up. There are for sure silent readers that will definitly benefit from your arguments ... 

so many thanks : ) 

Check the numbers Prophet

First of all, check the numbers for yourself. Bother yourself a bit before making baseless declaration. Do not accept anything from me.

Second, 3 million Vietnamese were killed in the name of "fighting the Godless Communists." Same for the hundreds of thousands who were murdered in south and central America in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. If they were not crusades, I do not know what is. Similarly, GW Bush declared a crusade after 9/11.

Third, your silly comment about why I am live in the U.S. just goes to show the kind of so-called "democracy" that you believe in, Prophet! In order to live here, I should believe in all the crimes that are done in the name of the American people? By your reasoning, anybody who lives in Iran must be a supprter of the IRI; otherwise, they would have moved!

Fourth, your generalization to ALL Muslims who kill each other and others is nothing but a shameless racist statement. Anytime a person generalizes a statement to every member of an ethnic or religious group, as you did, it is nothing but racism. Shame on you, Prophet!

Fifth, you have an inflated view of yourself. So what if you stop reading as soon as you hear "Zionist." I know you are a prophet, but who are you anyway to attach so much significance to yourself? Do not read, if you do not like it!

Mammad

VPK

Fine .. I respect your opinion ..... you are entitled to yours and I to mine ..

now let us change the topic ......  

I have to run otherwise I would tell you a joke ...

honestly can someone please set up a permeant blog to tell jokes and have fun ? It is so good to calm us down once the IC members are so boiled up ...  come on should i do it ....... or you ... anyone ?

laughter sometimes is needed ......  we need to vent  

talk to you later dear VPk   : ) 

Soosan Khanoom

now if you are a man of value and principle and a true believer Of good religion of Zoroastrian then be fair to all religions of God ....... after all there is only one God ..

I am not religious. But if I was religious I would conclude that Islam was sent by Satan not God. Please see my blog on this:

//iranian.com/main/blog/veiled-prophet-kh...

All religions are NOT the same. There is a good and a bad. There is a right and a wrong. 

VPK

You mentioned

"The killings you mention were not based on Christian teachings. In fact they go against Christian teachings. Muslim killings on the other hand are direct result of its teachings. Islam directs its followes to be violent.." 

Come on VPk be fair ..... do not make me to  post it again ... take your time and read this article which I blogged about it while ago 

"You Shall Not Kill" Has No Meaning In the Real World of Religion  By Dennis Diehl 

It gives you exact where and when with all supportive verses for both Judaism and Christianity  ...

but I think they all lost in translation  : )

//iranian.com/main/blog/soosan-khanoom/you-shall-not-kill-has-no-meaning-real-world-religion

as you mention how Zoroastrians n went wrong during Sasaneian that is the same case with Christianity during dark ages and Islam well unfortunately at the time that we are living in  ... now if you are a man of value and principle and a true believer Of good religion of Zoroastrian then be fair to all religions of God ....... after all there is only one God .. 

Mammad

First of all your numbers are "man daravordi". There is no evidence to backup your numbers. These are far left estimates made up by people with an agenda. The so called "peace" types. Their agenda: to make USA look bad in any form possible.

Second: The killings you mention were not based on Christian teachings. In fact they go against Christian teachings. Muslim killings on the other hand are direct result of its teachings. Islam directs its followes to be violent.

Third: Wars are different than personal behavior. Wars are generally due economic and power struggles. Human beings behave very badly in war. In peace however people are expected to behave civilized. Most do except for Muslims. They murder another during peace just because he drew a cartoon. 

Fourth: If Christians are so extreme and Muslims so moderate what are you doing here? Pack up and move to a "moderate" Muslim nation. Why live with all these extremist Christians. I won't stop you.

Fifth: Dude there is no way to sugar coat Islam. The world see right through it. No one except Muslims blows themselves up taking random people. No one goes around blasting planes filled with innocents. If Muslims vanished tomorrow we won't need security checks at airports. Just show me how many non Muslim suicide bombers to we have. How many non Muslims murder for apostasy.

Sixth: These days as soon as I hear "Zionist" I stop listening. The last resort of Muslims is to call their opponents Zionist. It is a very dated approach. I won't even bother to reply to it. 

Let us see

Aside from hundreds of thousands of aborginials in the Americas and Australia, particularly central and south America, who were murdred by Christian missionaries to convert the local people to their religion, and aside from the same number of people killed in Africa killed by the same in the 17-20 century, let us just see how many people have been killed by Christian nations since world war two. I won't even count WW II that was started by a totally racist regime in a supposedly Christian nation that resulted in 50 million deaths.

1. Vietnam: The French and Americans killed 3 million.

2. Algeria: 1.5 million during its war of independence

3. Israel, France, and Britain simulataneous invasion of Egypt in 1956, after Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal: 10,000 civilian, and at least an equal number of soldiers.

4. U.S.-supported fascist regimes in central and south America in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s: At least a million: 200,000 in Guatemala alone.

5. The Contra thugs that always claimed they fight against the "Godless" Sandinistas in Nicaragua, and supported by the U.S.: Thousands

6. Bosnia: 250,000 by the Serbian fascist Christian

7. Iraq in 1990s as a result of sanctions: 500,000 children according to UNICEF

8. Invasion of Iraq: Anywhere from 200,000 up to a millio. Note that Both wars with Iraq were strongly supported by evangelical christians, or christian zionists.

9. Afghanistan: From 1979 all the way to now, hundreds of thousands

I can go on and on and on, but the point has been made. Now, who is the "moderate" and who is "extremist?" 

Mammad

Pedro

Before I go I like to say  I am sorry to hear such ignorance and hope that the wealth of information now available will shed light on it.You learn one tiny fact; out of historical context. You then make a cheap shot at something you do not understand.

"Towers of Silence" are what you are referring to. It has nothing to do with the Gathas. It is a Sassanid practice meant to prevent "contaminating" the Earth. It was added thousands of years after Zartosht. 

It has nothing to do with the essence of Zoroastrian faith. Do you know about the tomb of Cyrus the Great. He was a Zartoshti and he did not get laid out for vultures. 

Regarding Gathas:There are many translations in English. Including an online version. Unfortunately the quality is pretty bad and the words used are usually too flowery and lose the meaning. Your best bet will be to get a Farsi translation. The best one is by Dr Ali Jafari. It is in Farsi and available from book stores in Iran. 

Remember a few things.

• Much of Gathas was destroyed by Alexander. What we have now is missing whole sections.
• Reading Gathas is not like reading a novel. You are reading poetry. Just like reading Rumi or Khayyam it takes some doing to understand. That is why the Farsi translations work better. There is more commentary and analysis. If you want a20 minute read don't bother with it.

a bit off topic: Did you

a bit off topic: Did you know 'Fal Parsi' in Arabic means pure fool???

MK

I am not sure which religion or school of thoughts you follow that your ID suggest " killing and murder " it is the same if it is a pig you are aiming at or another human being ........ but thanks for showing up  and you are right no point to argue .......  now go back at what you are so good at and continue with your killings .....

NO point arguing with Soosan

Sometimes it is best to leave delusional people alone. The very fact that she lumps all the religions together, and does not understand the subtle differences that significantly impact the practioners of those religions tells me that she is just there to defend Islam. This is no different than the Islamofascists criticizing the US or Israel everytime the rapist republic kills or rape an Iranian.

 Soosan, you are totally delusional to put the zionist in Israel, and evangelicals in the US on the same level as the Islamofascists in Iran. This tells me that you have no clue what you are talking about when it comes to the practices, and philosophies of those religions. There are huge differences between those groups, and the differences arise due to the differences in the tradition,and philosophies of those religions. One big example, show me a suicide bomber that is jewish or evangelical. Show me one case in the last 30 years?