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Iran’s non-violent movement, Part 4
13-Jul-2009
Photo caption: This picture was taken couple of days before election day and the man is swiping the woman’s slogan and broke it loose out of one of her hands. I was in a cab and took the picture as he swiped her slogan, notice her smirk.
This picture was taken at the day Mousavi’s supporters gathered to form a human chain from Tajrish (North Tehran) to Rah Ahan (South Tehran) along Vali Asr (previously Pahlavi) street. I think it is about 40 miles? It wasn’t like a human chain north-south, it was more like people at every intersection forming human chains and there were many of them and traffic was halted throughout Tehran.
Also notice the green scarves which no one would ever get caught dead wearing them! Don’t forget the green is the green-blooded Seyed’s green and not some other kind of green ;-)
The fifth debate was between Karoubi and Mousavi.
This debate was between 2 reformists and both candidates were very cordial to each other. Since they didn’t want to debate one another Mousavi stressed the word “lie” several times that has been told to people, “sheer lies” he said. He then showed his charts showing 24% inflation and other charts discrediting Ahmadi’s claims and charts.
After a while, that moron of a moderator with his dumb ass look informed Mousavi (fearfully) that he is talking about a candidate who is not present and due to debate rules if you keep talking about him that candidate has the right to respond on his own. Mousavi ignored and when the moderator warned him a second time he jumped at him screaming why are you defending him and the moderator cowered back like a scared turtle that hey I’m only warning you, the rest is up to you.
The defining moment of this debate was the single question Karoubi had for Mousavi, one question the entire debate and he waited until the end to ask it. He said we all like Mousavi but I want to ask him if “they” come and close the university and beat the students, are you going to stay around and voice your objection? Mousavi smiled and tried to brush the question and Karoubi said, no sir I ask again I want to know “hasti? Mimooni?” will you stay and fight? Finally Mousavi said yes he’ll stay and fight and that question and answer became the fate of this movement about whether or not Mousavi is staying. Time will tell.
The slogan of “doroogh mamnooeh” (no lying) were printed and used widely the following days. I gave this debate a tie but since Ahmadi scored a 19 minute last word after the debates, I gave this one to Ahmadi too. Morons!
The sixth debate was between Rezaei and Ahmadi. This one started when these two conservative candidates were cajoling to each other at first. Rezaei saying he doesn’t want to attack like other candidates and Ahmadi saying he’ll respond to attacks from the “other candidates” in the time allotted to him by the debate rules.
Towards the end Ahmadi was so full of his performance in the debates that he even gave some of his time away and asked Rezaei to explain how he has any experience in running the country.
Rezaei started by once again referencing his subject of section 144 of the constitution. Surprisingly he was more clear this time and added the subject of separating the powers of Federal and State Govts and gave an example of this Govt goes to a remote town to tell its people how to dig a simple water irrigation (joob) which I thought was very appropriate.
Rezaei also went on to have charts of his own objecting to how Ahmadi had manipulated the numbers to which Ahmadi had to agree with and explain his charts in the earlier debates had some ‘fine prints’ in them to some extent.
One problem with Rezaei’s charts was that he was holding the charts half-hazardly and shyingly, like a shy 5th grader reciting a poem in front of the whole class, so much so that our dumb ass moderator had to step in and say Mr. Rezaei hold it up! but to no avail, Rezaei’s charts were never held up properly for the cameras and people.
Rezaei had couple of good points (like Karoubi’s question to Mousavi of will you stay and fight) with deeper meaning and became more important after the election. Rezaei said he is against the culture of creating poor and giving handouts. This is beneath our people.
His second point was as much as he wishes Ahmadi’s Govt success because he represents the Islamic Republic, he can not help but have this worry and criticism of him about thinking he is the one who has done everything alone and must be rewarded for it.
He used the example that many of the things Ahmadi is boasting were started in previous regimes and furthermore he is not even using the nokhbeha (educated youth) as much as he should. To which Ahmadi responded his ministers are the best! To which Rezaei responded, I’m not talking about your ministers, I’m talking about the legions of college graduates which your Govt has not found them employment, one reason being the culture of hand-outs that you’re so fond of.
Oh and one more important item Rezaei brought up was to respond to one of Ahmadi’s charts and claims about production growth under his Govt. He said these are diluted results because the production Ahmadi is referring to is the only choice people have in selecting products. For example Govt forces people living in rural areas to buy Iranian made hot water heaters and count them towards an increase in production while some of these hot water heaters are lemons and junk which forces people to buy more and thus yet another increase in “production”. Ahmadi did not respond to this criticism and moved on to another issue.
Despite his initial stated intention of staying above the fray, Rezaei could not help but to end up ridiculing Ahmadi because he wouldn’t quit being a jackass and throwing accusations around.
I gave this debate a tie with slight edge to Rezaei because he stood his ground and did not give in and made some good points.
The last part of the debates was Ahmadi’s 19 minute rebuttal which he used to squarely wash Mousavi off his plate. Another mistake by Mousavi and Karoubi was not to use the 70 and 90 seconds that were allotted to them as welll. Even though this was only few seconds it was enough for a politician to make use of.
Which politician do you know who can not use 90 seconds? Mousavi and Karoubi like other Iranians have a lot of naaz (they are spoiled). Come on guys, there is a lot you could’ve said in those precious closing seconds, come off your high horses, but nooooo it is beneath them!
Anyway, debates came to conclusion and overall I thought Ahmadi won them technically but embarrassed himself and lost on the issues. There were so many jokes, so many, about the things he had said in the debates. Text messages carrying jokes were buzzing those days.
After each debate I’d talk to my family and friends and highlight what I saw based on my American observation of having watched several presidential TV debates. I felt towards the end they understood me. At the end of Ahmadi’s debates they’d say; nakheir (nope) doesn’t look his roo (arrogance) has been any lowered. I tried to explain to them these debates are no place to be “nice”.
I am not suggesting people had the same interpretations as me. In fact, later I found quite the opposite that people were looking for different things and many thought Ahmadi had come on too strong, this even among his own supporters who’d give this point to their opponents. Since this was the first open debates and people’s first experience, it is probably safe to say that it only strengthened each candidate’s position among their own supporters.
I don’t think these debates swayed people around, not much anyway, but it certainly galvanized the campaigns and brought people to streets asking for more. As a result of these debates people’s expectations were increased. The flood gates were open and a big part of regime’s culture of no; don’t do this, don’t do that, no to this and no to that, was broken.
To be continued …
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Dear Mr Mostofi
by IRANdokht on Mon Jul 13, 2009 05:07 PM PDTIn your response you said:
"His job was to draw out innocent young Iranians and let them get killed. Shame on him. "
I am sorry that you see this whole movement as a sham. I am not sure what you think of "logic", but please consider this:
If what you claim here is true and this whole thing was a sham to identify and eliminate the opposition inside the country + millions of people showed up for demonstrations + they have all the fire power, tanks, militia = we could have seen casualties in 10s of thousands.
Would it really make sense for any government (even the seyyeds as you call them) to go through such embarrassing episode and undermine their own "democratic" image that they have fought so hard to portray internationally, just to kill a few hundreds of young people and arrest a couple of thousands? Are they not the most criminal, bloodthirsty and vicious people on the face of the earth?
We're all hurt by the images and the knowledge of the harm that has been done to some of Iran's brightest youngsters, but you'd have to admit that if your accusation was true many more would have been murdered.Logically it just doesn't compute.
I am asking you again to please show respect for the victims of these last few weeks and do not try to silence their voices that many of us are trying to echo throughout the world.
Thank you
IRANdokht
To be or not to be ...
by Anonymouse on Mon Jul 13, 2009 05:03 PM PDT... a Seyed?! That is NOT a question!
Mr. Mostofi I know that you have a thing about Seyeds. In fact when I wrote the photo caption comment about green blood in the "green movement" I meant to remind folks not to confuse this green color with any other green as in not calling oneself Puurrrrrrsian :-)
You may be a Seyed and not even know it. I am not a Seyed but I don't know. Being Seyed has nothing to do with this. Having an allergy to Seyeds is the issue. Especially when we see so much of Allaho-akbar slogans which drives some Seyeds in the other camp crazy.
I appreciate Ebi's insight but we don't even need to go that much road :-) Why do you call Majid "violent" and reference his "killing methods"?! Where did that even come from? Could that be a Seyed approach?
I'll write my view of NVM in the next blog but I can compare your criticism to a criticsm one may make when entering someone's home as a guest. It's like as a guest telling your host, your house stinks and kind of old, out of date and you need to update it. What is the host supposed to say? I'm sorry sir but we're working on it and when we pay for our other expenses such as food, shelter, taking care of healthcare for my family and elderly parents, we'll renovate the house or even sell the house and buy a mansion!
Take Islam out of Iran? Sure, after we take care of other issues. Although some say (both violently and peacefully) that we should take Iran out of Islam.
PS what is the writing on your avatar? Not judging just asking.
Everything is sacred.
Mr mostofi!!
by ebi amirhosseini on Mon Jul 13, 2009 04:20 PM PDTBaa ejaazeh Anonymouse.
From a double Seyyed,:
"The use of the expression Zend-Avesta to refer to the Avesta in general is a misunderstanding of the phrase Zand-i-Avesta (which literally means "interpretation of the Avesta").
So it is correct to say Avesta & Rig-Veda.
Btw,dear friend,
I have studied both of them & taught parts of Avesta.If you read Varahran Yasht(Smiter of resistance) & Aban Yasht again,you'll see it is not all that you claim:
"We Iranians and our cousins the Indians, preached peace and non-violent for the first time on Earth in the Zend-Avesta and Rig-Veda."
I rest my case!.
Ebi aka Haaji
Most people know me, and I
by alimostofi on Mon Jul 13, 2009 03:05 PM PDTMost people know me, and I do not fall for Seyyed BS.
Ali Mostofi
//www.alimostofi.com
...........
by Majid on Mon Jul 13, 2009 03:02 PM PDTSo are the people who are biased.
It's hard to be fair and balanced and not just pop up when the water is muddy enough to fish, you never know what you might catch!
THANK GOD (if there's such a thing) for the feature called track record and the internet.....LOL
Out of your mouth, out of your control!
People who react violently
by alimostofi on Mon Jul 13, 2009 02:49 PM PDTPeople who react violently are easily recognised.
Ali Mostofi
//www.alimostofi.com
"MY" killing methods?
by Majid on Mon Jul 13, 2009 02:39 PM PDTMr. Mostofi, if I were you I would spend a minute or two and check Majid's track record for the past 100 weeks or so, before I write this sentence.....
"Majid I will not follow your killing methods"
There's just not enough glue, SIR.
Majid I will not follow
by alimostofi on Mon Jul 13, 2009 02:30 PM PDTMajid I will not follow your killing methods. Non-violence would not have gone into the streets and put people at risk.
Yes of course the Seyyeds are responsible for putting Iran second after Islam. That is a fact.
Ali Mostofi
//www.alimostofi.com
Irandokht, ba dorood My
by alimostofi on Mon Jul 13, 2009 02:26 PM PDTIrandokht, ba dorood
My dear, an Islamic movement cannot be non-violent. Mr Mousavi dare not put Iran above Islam.
Please, please do not mix this person with true Iranians who would not go to the streets and engage with the Basij.
The aim of the non-violent movement, is to oppose the aliens who have guns and battons, with our own unity based on peace. Our unity can shut down Iran.
The peace we have is so strong and massive, that the whole of Iran is with us. The Seyyed ruler knows this. He is trying to pretend to be what his book the Koran teaches him not to do. These people believe they are right to kill us and go to heaven. The more bullets they fire, the more Iranians they beat with their battons, the more holy they are.
Mr Mousavi is in no position as to preach non-violence until he changes his belief system. If and only if he renounces capital punishment then maybe is morally eligable to begin to represent the anguish the 1400 years have been for us Iranians. He has blood on his hands and he is responsible for it. His job was to draw out innocent young Iranians and let them get killed. Shame on him.
Ali Mostofi
//www.alimostofi.com
Mr. Mostofi
by Majid on Mon Jul 13, 2009 02:17 PM PDTYou apparently have a chip or two on your shoulder when it comes to Seyyeds, Your back to back blogs and articles are there for "YOU" and everyone else to see....:-) Here are a few......
//iranian.com/main/blog/alimostofi/seyyeds-emperors-disapproval
//iranian.com/main/blog/alimostofi/saudis-enriching-seyyeds
//iranian.com/main/blog/alimostofi/seyyeds-lose-china
//iranian.com/main/blog/alimostofi/russians-stump-seyyeds
//iranian.com/main/blog/alimostofi/seyyeds-buying-friends
//iranian.com/main/blog/alimostofi/deal-seyyeds
//iranian.com/main/blog/alimostofi/who-feeds-seyyeds
//iranian.com/main/blog/alimostofi/seyyed-calls-norway-inhuman
//iranian.com/main/blog/alimostofi/seyyeds-sailors-and-us-clash
You think it's enough? OR you want me to copy and paste some more?
Doesn't make any difference, if it's a Seyyed or Mir, you oppose just for the heck of it, no matter what they say!
LEAD, FOLLOW OR JUST GET OUT OF THE WAY!
Mr Mostofi
by IRANdokht on Mon Jul 13, 2009 01:57 PM PDTI guess I am not clear enough. Maybe your answer is better given by anonymouse himself:
"The green movement is what we have. It is not the best and many even in Iran don't think Mousavi can bring this home but it is what it is. It is his movement for now. I wasn't charitable to him in these blogs but need to acknowledge his role and place. "
The reality is that no matter how long you have advocated any type of movement, what's going on in Iran is what is working right now.
This movement started as non-violent and if it were not for the attacks of bassij and the snipers it would not have turned violent.
Are you blaming the green supporters for the violence?
Are you blaming Mousavi for the violence?
what would you have done if you were in his place?
I believe most people would appreciate a non violence approach, but what you don't seem to understand is that the green movement has tried to keep it non-violent and their first demonstrations after the first violent attacks were conducted in silence, not even slogans were shouted.
Now I am not sure what you want to do, but it seems like you're against this movement because it's not to your liking. Is it because it's not non-violent or because it's green, they shout allah-o akbarand has islamic undertone to it.
Why are you speaking of non-violence when the real reason you do not support this movement is something else?
IRANdokht
And finally, the whole
by alimostofi on Mon Jul 13, 2009 01:22 PM PDTAnd finally, the whole point of the non-violent movement, is not to risk your life. The fact that people have risked their life, is wrong. There are movements in human experience where a lot was achieved through human sacrifice, and many follow those themes. NVM however is not one of them.
NVM is based on mass unity along peace. People are united along Peace. Under no circumstance do we put our people or our enemy's people under violence. Our differences cannot be sorted out via violence.
Is that clear?
Ali Mostofi
//www.alimostofi.com
Irandokht, fyi I am the
by alimostofi on Mon Jul 13, 2009 01:15 PM PDTIrandokht, fyi I am the oldest writer on the non-violent movement. FYI I have had to put up with so much crap in this site for even suggesting NVM for so many years that anyone else would have given up long long time ago.
As an Astrologer I feel the Spirit of the Ancients and many who look at this pathetic Islamic attempt to be peaceful as down right disgusting. We Iranians and our cousins the Indians, preached peace and non-violent for the first time on Earth in the Zend-Avesta and Rig-Veda.
I will not sit and see people abuse the proper course of action. There is only one proper peace movement, and it isone which has nothing to do with capital punishment or killing - none of which relate to Islam.
Now what are you trying to tell me?
Ali Mostofi
//www.alimostofi.com
Corrections noted
by Anonymouse on Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:28 AM PDTThank you Irandokht for the corrections I'll correct them later. You know we Iranians are impatient. No where is this more evident than in Iran itself.
When you go to a store there is no line, there is a "consent". Same goes for traffic. Recently in banks they're issuing numbers to respond to people. We Iranians outside Iran are impatient in another way. I don't think impatient carries the exact meaning of "ajool" and ajool is a more appropriate word.
Many Iranians outside Iran have always been singing their own songs. I am not talking about any person in particular but the attitude that this green is really not "that" green or when we protest we make sure we don't carry a green flag or wear a green ribbon or anything green or explain the green as the St. Patricks green!
The green movement is what we have. It is not the best and many even in Iran don't think Mousavi can bring this home but it is what it is. It is his movement for now. I wasn't charitable to him in these blogs but need to acknowledge his role and place. I don't see anyone saying the regime made up these protests and this is a zargary fight.
Everything is sacred.
Mr Mostofi
by IRANdokht on Mon Jul 13, 2009 09:54 AM PDTPlease show support and respect for the people who are making the sacrifices and risking their lives. The movement in Iran is what's important. Why are you trying to silence it?
After all this time, people are finally speaking up in large groups instead of limited activism of students and unions that were silenced by IRI.
The GREEN voters are the ones getting killed and you are sitting on the side criticizing their choice of color? Why don't you pretend that when they say "sabz" they mean "sabzeh" and get out of their way. With all due respect, I don't recall having seen you lead, and obviously you won't be following them either. Getting out of their way is the only decent option left.
IRANdokht
Islam and Green are violent
by alimostofi on Mon Jul 13, 2009 09:43 AM PDTIslam and Green are violent and the true Green movement would be one with a picture of Sabzeh on it, as it would link to the Nowrooz passive philosphy only.
The movements in Iran are all part and parcel of Islam, that puts Islam above Iran. That is wrong.
We have a powerful Iranian Spirit that is strong and universal.
Ali Mostofi
//www.alimostofi.com
Thanks
by IRANdokht on Mon Jul 13, 2009 09:32 AM PDTI've been following your series closely and enjoying the account of the recourse and observations made by someone who's been living in the US and experienced the same political rules of debate and conduct than I have.
This is really interesting, can't wait to hear what you heard and saw afterwards.
I have noticed that amongst the Iranians abroad, Mousavi is quickly being transformed to someone to blame and set aside regarding the green movement. Most are now even against wearing the color green. They do not realize that if Mousavi didn't have the support amongst the green voters, none of them would have been out there demonstrating.
It's been 30 years that the Iranian opposition in diaspora is trying to find someone who could attract such large crowds and they come up empty handed. Not that there aren't better and more qualified people around, they just don't have this kind of grassroots support. But instead of showing union with the green movement, a month after the election, they seem to be ready to persecute Mousavi.
Thanks again
IRANdokht
by the way 20 Km human chain is about 12.5 miles
I have a couple of minor corrections to suggest: I think you mean to
say Rezaie instead you said Karoubi (4th paragraph of the sixth debate)
I also think you meant a 5th grader reciting...
Hang on
by Anonymouse on Mon Jul 13, 2009 06:01 AM PDTI'll talk about the non-violent part in the next and last part. I believe these debates were the starting point of A non-violent movement for Iran. A cry for democracy. Don't forget whatever these protests are leading to, it started as a result of the election and people voting.
I talked in the earlier blogs and in some comments that people did NOT want to clash with the security forces. Some engaged in those activities but it was not the intention of the majority of those in the green (read non-violent) movement.
Case and point, the "silent march" on Karimkhand bridge the very next day Ahmadi called them Khas va Khashak in his rally and victory speech in Vali Asr median. In that "silent march" there were those who wanted to chant slogans and people specifically asked them not to and kept the rally "silent".
Every non-violent movement is different and NO non-violent movement has ever been violence free. There is one common factor is all non-violent movements and that is perseverance.
Everything is sacred.
You used the title, "Iran's
by alimostofi on Mon Jul 13, 2009 05:48 AM PDTYou used the title, "Iran's Non-Violent Movement", and I was really interested to see what you had to say about INVM, and instead was surprised to see detailed description about these so called "debates".
Where is the NINVM in your article? Please note NVM is about NV. All we had in Iran was V. Mr Mousavi has to answer a lot to all of us who have seen him abuse the NVM.
Do you really want me to tell you what true NVM is?
Ali Mostofi
//www.alimostofi.com