IRAN-U.S.

Dodging the questions again...

You cannot label someone who opposes your views as a member of the 75M club or any other club. Only oppressive goverments and people like yourself do this.

You have failed to answer my questions and instead revert to insulting. This alone tells a lot about you.

JAMSHID, you sound awfully like KHASHMGIN1 !!!!

Are you two the same creature just with two different aliases? Are you getting 2 paychecks from "$75M Club"?

Look who is crying....

It seems that you are the one who keeps crying Almo. Your mind is so filled with hatred and anger that you just can't see.

The proper way of responding is to take a piece of my writing and then explain what was wrong with it. Make your explanation without changing the subject and by staying on the topic. More importantly, you should not insult.

However, it seems that you are a pro-IRI lackey. While your masters in Iran are torturing, murdering and raping Iranians, you are living outside of Iran and enjoying life. You are accountable for having defended IRI.

And it is YOU who should be taking a better look at the crimes you and your IRI are committing against Iranians.

Jamshid, Don't cry baby ....

As I have said before, for starters go and read the history and become familiar with iranian history, in particular. Read about 1953 and the like events, Find out that our enemies are still the same as they were then. Then they called Mosadegh a "terrorist" because he was kicking the British asses and throwing them out of Iran. That was that time's method  of getting rid of domination by foriegn powers. And now we are called terrorsts because after years of being dominated, and because we are smart and know how to defend our nation, we are kicking some more asses. .  The parallels are all there, you just need to look. 

Re: Almo

Almo, it is obvious that you are dodging my challenge. Instead you are reverting to insults. Everyone now knows.

Jamshid

Jamshid, you are not worth the time and effort.

if there was a grain of intellect in your writings, may be I would. Not now. Go to school baby.

Almo's challenge

Almo, I challenge you to find a contradiction in my writings. State them clearly and without your usual anger and hatred. I and the rest of the readers are waiting for your response.

Jamshid

Jamshid, you act like a SHOTOR MORGH!!!

You have forgotten your own writings. Go back and see all the contradictions. You are still WRONG.

I picked "Shotor Morgh" from another title in this thread. However, it works for you. You keep changing your position.

Re: Almo

Almo, you are not reading my comments carefully. In the early 1950s, Iran's dark ages was not imaginary, it is not imaginary even today. Just take a look at IRI and the way it treats people. just like in the dark ages.

I too believe that if external elements would leave us alone, we would ultimately be able to establish a respectable and decent goverment. But the fact is that they WON'T leave us alone. And you cannot live in a daydream where they would leave us alone.

I don't appreciate you telling me that "I" want a foreign master while you want freedom. First, just because someone has a view that opposes yours, it does not make him a servant of foreign powers. Second, if you really want freedom then you must learn to respect and tolerate opposing views which is the definition of freedom. Labeling people traitor and US servant and so on, is what IRI does best and it is NOT the meaining of freedom. So you have some work to do on this.

Then you talk about Israel. I have not made ANY comments about Israel in ANY of my comments. So how do you know what I think about Israel????

Your tone and how quickly you label people reminds me of IRI and everything that is against democracy. It is not I who need an education, perhaps neither you, but before you talk, you should find some way of clearing your mind from all the noticable anger and hatred that has accumulated, otherwise it's just barking and it won't benefit anyone.

Jamshid, YOU are NOT getting it!

You are still in that imaginary DARK age that used to be;  USA and their allies can do whatever fits their agenda with the lives and livelihood of other nations and humans.. On the other hand, iranian nationalists and many democratically minded people of the EARTH believe, that when you leave people at their own means, leave them ALONE and you will see that  they make better decisions for their own lives and livelihood. YOU want a MASTER (take it US, Brits, French, etc.), the rest of us want INDEPENDENCE and FREEDOM. We want freedom from this country and that country playing with our futures and with our  livelihood.. You need to get in tune with reality and realize and understand what it is that makes humans thrive. Not be like the stone-age israeli or the like of them who believe in their "superimacy", and in order to establish that superamacy they use any means including destructions of lives, property, and humanity. Get a life Jamshid. Go to school and get an education and may be education will do the trick for you!

Re: Ghool

Ghool, You talked about the pre-1953 period. I agree with you regarding the assasinations and the subsequent establishment of SAVAK in later years. But there was something else I wanted to say.

In the early 50s, Iran was a backwarded country, weak, no economy, no trade, no industries, no education (90% ileterate) and in the dark ages.

At the same time Iran had powerful internal and external enemies. Internally, there was the extremist Mullahs and the Tudeh party. There was also the Azari, Kurd and Arab (Khuzestan) separatists. Externally, there was Britain, the US and of course the Soviets. None of these parties had the interests of Iran in mind. And they were all fevereshly active in exploiting and taking advantage of any situation that could benefit themselves. And there was also Iran's greatest enemy of all, its backwardedness.

And there was oil. But Iran neither had the technology nor the tools nor the engineers to extract the oil, to refine it, to ship it or do anything at all with it.

Such were the conditions in those times. I think the only two who had the interests of Iran in mind were Mosadegh and the Shah and their supporters.  But even they couldn't agree on how to steer the ship. Mosadegh had an "all or nothing" attitude while the Shah had a moderate "kaj daar o mariz" attitude.

I personally believe, and this is just my opinion, considering Iran's weaknesses in every area and the internal and external enemies' strength, the "all or nothing" attitude was bad politics and very dangerous for the future of Iran. I also strongly believe that true democracy was not feasible under those conditions, not by Mosadegh, not by Shah, not by anyone. The internal enemies of freedom, (Tudeh, Mullahs) had the power and would easily sabotage any attempt for democarcy. This was due to their disciplined organizations, the backwardedness of the Iranian masses and lack of unity and experience among the nationalists.

And this is where the Shah and Mosadegh could not agree. Mosadegh believed that the Shah's moderate "kajdaar o mariz" politics towards the foreign powers is "weak", and the Shah believed that the "all or nothing" politics was dangerous. They also disagreed on the extent of the Shah's executive powers.

According to the released CIA documents, if the Shah could not be a viable solution, then Britain and US had a secondary plan. They would arm the then mostly arab population of Khuzestan and finance and support their separatist movement, and utlitmately recognize Khuzestan as an independent arab country. IRAN DID NOT HAVE THE POWER TO STOP THEM.

I believe that in those times being a nationalist and democrat was not sufficient to save Iran considering all the odds she was facing. What Iran needed was a nationalist AND "skilled politician" who could sense and see the dangers and who could play Iran's weak hand well against the foreign super powers. I think Mosadegh's "all or nothing" politics would ultimately hurt Iran despite of Mosadegh's best intentions. The Shah's "kajdaar o mariz" politics on the other hand, would and did allow the long term and step by step empowering of Iran.

Jamshid

Response to Almo

Stop making an emamzadeh out of the guy.

re: Bravo

Judging from your past and your present writing, you are missing very important points in the Iranian history.  For starters, there was a GREAT difference between 1953 during which a democratically elected government was replaced with a koskesh shah, and 1979 where US either knowingly or unkowingly lost control of events in Iran (most likely US had no choice but to accept what was coming down). At any event, in a "democracy" which I would think you also wopuld like to see govern, actions of US government are called worst than terrorism. When a terorrist blows up something (anything), may be 1, may be 2000-3000 die and life goes on for the rest. Actions of US government in 1953 has caused dislocation. harm, and despare for millions. That is why Mrs Nafissi (sp?), a professor at one of the local universities in Wash DC (or MD) after reviewing the book written about 1953 by a NY times author said (my paraphrase): "I don't cry for what we (iranians) are now , I cry for what we could have been (if it wasn't for the US government mess)....." . My suggestion for you is to go and read history and perhaps it will enlighten you.

Al

re: Bravo

by almo5000
#09 Tue Sep 04, 2007 08:43 PM PDT

Judging from your past and your present writing, you are missing very important points in the Iranian history.  For starters, there was a GREAT difference between 1953 during which a democratically elected government was replaced with a koskesh shah, and 1979 where US either knowingly or unkowingly lost control of events in Iran (most likely US had no choice but to accept what was coming down). At any event, in a "democracy" which I would think you also wopuld like to see govern, actions of US government are called worst than terrorism. When a terorrist blows up something (anything), may be 1, may be 2000-3000 die and life goes on for the rest. Actions of US government in 1953 has caused dislocation. harm, and despare for millions. That is why Mrs Nafissi (sp?), a professor at one of the local universities in Wash DC (or MD) after reviewing the book written about 1953 by a NY times author said (my paraphrase): "I don't cry for what we (iranians) are now , I cry for what we could have been (if it wasn't for the US government mess)....." . My suggestion for you is to go and read history and perhaps it will enlighten you.

Al

re: Bravo

Judging from your past and your present writing, you are missing very important points in the Iranian history.  For starters, there was a GREAT difference between 1953 during which a democratically elected government was replaced with a koskesh shah, and 1979 where US either knowingly or unkowingly lost control of events in Iran (most likely US had no choice but to accept what was coming down). At any event, in a "democracy" which I would think you also wopuld like to see govern, actions of US government are called worst than terrorism. When a terorrist blows up something (anything), may be 1, may be 2000-3000 die and life goes on for the rest. Actions of US government in 1953 has caused dislocation. harm, and despare for millions. That is why Mrs Nafissi (sp?), a professor at one of the local universities in Wash DC (or MD) after reviewing the book written about 1953 by a NY times author said (my paraphrase): "I don't cry for what we (iranians) are now , I cry for what we could have been (if it wasn't for the US government mess)....." . My suggestion for you is to go and read history and perhaps it will enlighten you.

Al

Parham, follow the chain...

Parham, it all began when Almo reverted to fosh and dirty words in one of his/her comments. Rostam complained about it and ask Almo to refrain from using fosh. You then replied to Rostam with: "Good point, though I would have liked to see you say the same thing to Ghool, Jamshid, Abgoosht.."

Logically, a reader would imply that Ghool, Jamshid and Abgousht as well as Almo use fosh, and you "would have liked to see Rostam say the same thing to Ghool, Jamshid, Abgoosht", namely to refreain using fosh.

Now you are saying that you did not criticize me for using vulgarities but did for flame-war? Rostam's comments to which you replied had nothing to do with flame-war.

Just admit that you goofed by including my name in your comments and all will be well :)

P.S. It's funny, but I have to say this: I had followed Rostam's and your replies to each other in another article that dealt with setting the past (Shah and Mosadegh) aside and moving on. He was criticizing YOU for flame-war in the comments for that article!

Jamshid

your objection

Jamshid, nobody criticized you for using vulgarities, but of involving yourself more with flame-war than with discussing subjects.

Once again, this is not a personal war!

It's complicated Parham

Parham, it is difficult to answer your question, because it is not just about sources of information, there are other issues involved when searching for the truth. I try to follow the four (difficult) steps of "حامیان حق". I have failed on all 4 steps because they are not easy. But at least it has helped me see things differently. We can talk about it more if you want.

Jamshid

Unite?

I was not talking about my parents. I was talking about ME. So don't dodge the subject again by clever manipulation of your words. The messengers should either take responsibility or not be a messenger, or at least not target the teenage group. Avoiding responsibility is not a good attitude for us or for our leaders.

I agree with you that we should blame nobody or everybody, and not a specific group or person. It's a matter of changing attitude for us Iranians. It can not be achieved unless we can develop the attitude of tolerance and respect towards each other, even towards those with opposting views. It is difficult, but if you really believe in what you wrote about unity, then you should be the first one to STOP disrespecting people AND to be more tolerant of those with opposing views.

We ALL know what the solution is, we just can't change that attitude, which is good news for the IRI. 

Jamshid

tsinoizitna where were you raised?

in a tavileh? clam down dude. Stop showing off your upbringing. Do you think anyone who is even half decent or half serious about anything will even care about what you think after seeing what you post?

What is rostam kostam? or lickin' ass? You complain about ghool belittling Iranians? Frist take a look at yourself and see how you are belittling your fellow citizens. Start with yourself guy.

Jamshid

Buzz this!

I'll call anyone anything I'd like.  Get off your fat n hairy ass and read my response to your ghool buddy's latest post.  I talk like a human being, I talk the way I feel.  Maybe instead of lickin your ghooli's ass, you can go and check his other crap posted wher he demeans and belittles ALL Iranians with shyster name-calling he's probably learned (and certainly been a victim of) here in the US.  I'll call individuals names and may use profanity, but certainly don't stoop so low as to belittle my proud heritage, culture and ethnicity as your homeboy continues to do.  So rosatm, mostam and go and kosstam.

Hillarious!

Good job for sounding like one that respects Iranians, although I must say it certainly doesn't flow with your other posts (on this and other articles).  Bombing the mullahs, their security apparatus, .... you've been playing video games too long.  In my opinion, cost of lives, innocent lives, as a result of the bombings that you so much crave, are much higher than the SHORT-TERM benefit we might see.  You see ghool-boy, our innocents in Iran (the ones that just go to work and try to help their families) won't see it the way you do, when their homes get destroyed, when their kids get killed, when their assets (mostly land of course) get destroyed.  That feeling of anger and hatred (over time) will override anything and everything.  It is human nature.  They will say - "yes, these fuckin mullahs are no good, but now you come in and destroy my life and my family?"  Again, it is human nature and what you'll get is everything backfiring.  What you'll get is everyone thinking that the new leader of our country (after the US intervention/invasion) is another installed puppet, of which we've seem many around the world throughout the last 80 years.  What I'm saying is that this bombing stuff is not as simple as you think.  Look at Iraq!  Similar to Iraq, we have so many small groups of religious and ethnic groups, where suddenly after an intervention, after destabilizing the whole place ... all the little groups will start demanding more and more power ... whats taking place in Iraq.  I'd suggest you go and read a bit about not only the history of that region but also about the rest of the world, about pre and post war behavior, about differences between actions with short-term and long-term results. 

Conflict is between the civilized world and the barbaric ... but the country that will initiate the invasion and do the bombings is guilty of probably more barbaric acts against others than most other countries.  Also, it looks like you are more a pure anti-Mossadegh than one searching for the best solution for IRAN.  Mossadegh did this, Mossadegh did that ... so what!  What now?  The blame game is healthy and kickin.  What's your argument if we assume the Mossadegh factor out of the picture?  Who will you blame next?  Who would you wanna bomb next? 

This is a different world.  Its not the mid to late 20th century.  Every action taken has to be analyzed in terms of its impact on the biggest and smallest groups out there, as they ALL have and will have access to weapons, info and everything else to retaliate.  For this reason, we need to take the option that minimizes those costs ... and none of your options represent that.  The way to fight these days is through creating economic hardship (as covertly as possible of course and mostly on the govt of a country) ... OR through creating economic benefits and luring the enemy to undertsand the benefits of working with us.  Even that arab fuck osama is now targeting sites that will have the most negative economic impact and not necessarily human toll.

Just think about these things ... hopefully they'll help OPEN up your mind a bit more.

Who's dodging responsibilties???

"Since when a teenager is supposed to be like a leader with all its responsiblities?"  And since when is a teenager supposed to fully undertsand all that stuff.  You were a teenager?  What about your parents.  I'll bet your parents, grown up/mature people, were supporting the revolution.  At least they were old enough to understand and take responsibilities.  Just like mine, just like many other parents.  So again, blaming it on the messengers is pretty sad.  Blame it on EVERYONE .. you satisfied?  What then?  Playing the blame game is the most anti-productive thing we can do .. and that's what the shysters in the US want us to do.  They want all of the little groups to start hating each other ... they want instability in order to not only have an excuse to bomb and invade (which by the way will certainly triple the instability), but also an excuse to install another US shyster lovin puppet.  I'm not a mullah follower, but I won't support a US backed bombing, invasion and bloodshed.  We must UNITE, and then get rid of the mullahs ... ON OUR OWN.  We must encourage change from within ... call it waht you want, but I think its the best way to approach it .. rather than have our country carpet bombed like that shyster ghooljende keeps pushing for. 

Don't expect too much

This is how we are unfortunately. When I was in college around the time of the revolution I used to be amazed at how the politically active people never tried to realy study the history of their country, even though they were abroad and free of access restrictions. They just conceived their adopted organization as an infallible "know it all" after reading a few pamphlets and attending a few meetings and reading their own "literature" and subscribing to their organization's ideological and warped version of history with a cast of good and bad characters, heros and villains, be it left wing or right wing. Then even if they deigned to "talk" to one another, they engaged in heated verbal fights, name calling, and spitting their organization's "line" back at each other. Maybe things will get better with the second generation.

Well said...

tsinozitna, please do not show off your family's upbringing to us by calling people here jendeh. Read what Rostam wrote about Almo, either talk like a human being or buzz off.

Bravo

Very well put, Ghool.

Those of you who disagree with Slaters' final paragraph (of which there are many) are simply blinding themselves to the obvious. It's kind of funny (in a sick way) that the IRI lovers hate the U.S. role in 1953, because of the final result. But knowing the U.S. role in the events of 1979 they don't complain about it the same way. Meanwhile, the murderous hero of the IRI Ruhollah Moussavi returns to Iran on an American-made Boeing 747 and rides through the streets of Tehran in a Chevrolet K5 Blazer.

tick-tick-tick-tick-tick (the biological clock of the IRI as it counts down towards its menopause)

why so?

And exactly why so? Bakhtiar was probably the truest Mossadeghi of them all.

//youtube.com/watch?v=94CYBOoMMHE

Jamshid, I hope you won't take this badly, but I wish you could enlarge the scope of the sources upon which you base your judgment of the past. Do read material from all sides involved, whether it's on 28 Mordad or on the revolution, since by your own admittance you were very young then, and make up your mind afterwards. I think it's very important that one absorbs all points of view first to be able to create his own.

This is for Tsinoizitna...

I have family members living in Iran. They have a choice to make: a) they can side with the Islamic Republic of Mullahs, b) they can side with Iran. I hope they choose the latter!

I don't favor carpet bombing of Iran nor do I suggest that. I favor and suggest bombing of the mullahs, their security apparatus, the IRGCs, the supporters of the mullahs, their thugs, their infrastructure, mosques, and anything that helps the mullahs to survive one more day.

It is not a conflict between the necons and Iranians. The conflict is between the civilized world and the barbaric world. I believe from the bottom of my heart that Iran is part of the civilized world and the mullahs and their ideology belong to the barbaric world and they must be destroyed.

The world is running out of its patience waiting for the Iranians to put their house in order. Twenty eights years is been plenty of time for Iranians to straighten up the mess they created, thanks for the Mosadeqi gang for instigating the Islamic An_Gholab of 1979. In other words, the people of the world don’t
have the time to wait for you to defeat the mullahs. Mullahs are not going to be defeated with empty hands. They have too much money, too many guns, and too many fanatics that are willing to commit murder and even blow themselves up before they surrender or relinquish their power to you.

So, people like you have three options to choose from: a) join us in our battle against the evil mullahs, we will embrace you with our open arms, b) join the mullahs, c) stay neutral but stay out of our way. These choices are
crystal clear and their consequences are even more crystal clear.

Parham, I object...

Parham, biased to the end eh? Even when you list names of those who may have cussed, you only include the Shahis haan? Aren't you biased to no limits.

I have never used a dirty word such as koskesh or jendeh. I challenge you to find even one occurence. The worst word I have used may be "bastards" (haroom zadeh), but even then I have not directed it to a specific person in here or a political leader. 

You have been challenged Parham. Either a)find an occurence, or b)apologize, or c)belittle yourself by not taking this challenge. All the readers here are witness and waiting for your response.

I agree with you...

The terms of endearment such as Olagh, korehkhar, Shotor, etc. should be allowed to be used. These are the salt and pepper of Iranian discourse! In fact to Dariush Abady and Almo5000, these terms are like NoghL’o’Nabat or SohAAn Qom! I’ll use them when I absolutely have to, how about that?