IDEAS

Rooshan....are YOU drunk?

They put an end to the corrupt side of Western culture? For what? To bring out the corrupt side of Middle Eastern culture? What a stupid comment you made.

The only analogy you can come up with is movies and TV plots? Oh my God are you THAT shallow of a person? Is that ALL your life is about?

OK, now go back to your TV. The commercials are over.

Re: Q dissected word by word...

Q, I was hoping you will reply so I can slam dunk you again like in our last argument. You are such a fake that exposing you is not only easy, it's even fun. So here we go....

As usual, you start by deceiving the reader by saying that I was forced to apologize. I never apologized to you. I apologized to the provider of the Shah/Columbia picture for a misunderstanding. Apologize to you? I rather be hanged.

Here is another one. You say: "Even here you act like an attack dog attacking anything that questions Saltanat."

So even here in this thread I am attacking anything that questions Saltanat huh? Hmmm.... I challenge you, with all the readers being witness, to find one sentence in this thread that would indicate this remark of yours. You are challenged. Either put up or shut up.

Challenge #2:

You said: "You (Jamshid) want to pretend Bahai'sm is the same az Zoroastriansm..." Again, show where did I say this? EITHER SHOW WHERE I SAID THIS OR SHUT YOUR BIG ISLAMIC MOUTH. You freely and at will making whatever interpratation that suites you is one thing, what I said is another. Try to distinguish between the two.

To answer your question as to why ppl didn't willingly convert to another religion, the answer is for the same reason that if I, an ex-muslim, convert to Bahai or Zorostrian, according to Koran I am a "morted" and I should be killed. The Zorostrians who converted to Islam were forced to, and when time passed, the following generations were locked into Islam specially with the likes of you and akhoonds being around with a sword over their shoulder, ready to strike.

Then you said this: "Reza Khan had the power to forcibly remove Chadors but he couldn't protect people if they converted to Zoroastrianism?" Again, where did I say this? You are just making your own (mis)interpretations and throw them up as you go on with your ranting.

As far as during the reign of Pahalvi II, people didn't convert to other religions because under his reign (starting in the sixties) it was illegal and punishable to print or publish anti-Islam materials. However to your dismay, the glory of our pre-Islam history was taught to us. It will take a few generations for the awakening to take hold. It could not happen over night in the span of only one generation.

I know you are incapable of a solid intellectual discussion, and this comment was not an attempt for one. I wrote this just because it's always fun to expose how IRI lackeys "cleverly" try to use "safsateh" (playing with words) in order to make their pointless points. You failed to answer to even one of the remarks I made in my previous comment. You are a charlatan.

Re: Rooshan_been

Roshan_been, this poem applies to your comment:

خانه از پای بست ویران است

خواجه در بند نقش ایوان است

Sorry if I didn't get the poem exaclty right, but you get the meaning.

Re: Duped

Duped, I am well aware that Jahanshah wrote "khomeini". But it wasn't khomeini, it was Khamenei who gave that speech. What I meant was that the speech he was referring to was given by Khamenei. Now let's do some English shall we?

I said: "It was Khamenei who gave the Firday Sermon that Jahanshah was refering to in his article". This sentence means this:

The speech that jahanshah was refering to was given by khamenei.

This sentence does not mean this:

 jahanshah said "khamenei" gave the speech.

You need some work with your English. OR you should find a more clever way of resorting to "technicalities". Again, nice try but no cigar....

Iran is more Iranian than ever

Real Iranian culture has flourished under IRI than ever. What IRI did was that they put an end to corrupt side of western culture, unfortunately the only side that was promoted in Iran at the time. Even in western europe and America, good people are fedup with imoral behaviors of some that are not bound to any thing.

Lets be fare!!Can you compare the quality of Movies, T.V series, Art in general between IRI era and pre-IRI. All I can remember is Cafe scenes(stabings, dance, getting drunk, pointles conversations, movies with absolutely no plot). lets compare number of time Iranian movies were nominated for awards in international film festivals.

Jamshid, go wash the toilets like Ashraf Pahlavi asked

Don't go on-line idiot. Ashraf Pahlavi will fire you, koskesh.

A. G.

To: Q, Daryush, duped and the rest of IRI lackeys....

To: Q, Daryush, duped and the rest of IRI lackeys....

To be able to make you IRI lackeys generate so many hate-replies against me, in which you are attacking, labeling and accusing me with your none sense ranting....

... is truely a distinguished honor which makes me feel well and proud, adding all that much to my reputation in this site.

wow

What can anyone say to the delightfully intelligence of Jamshid and some sites Majid and the like who make fun of reading. I understand exactly your point duped, these guys are just clueless.

True Iranian ...

Jamsid,

I simply love your analysis and knowledge of history. You are a true Iranian Coconut. Thank you!

George W Bush

To Jamshid

"It was Khamenei who gave the Firday Sermon that Jahanshah was refering to in his article"
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No it ain't. He specifically refers to Khomeini. What part of his sentence do you not understand so I can explain it to you better:
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"On April 18, 1980, Ayatollah Khomeini, the founder of the Islamic Republic, in his Friday Prayer sermon, ordered a holy war"
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Here is a couple of hints for you: 1)It spells out Khomeini. 2) The "founder" thing also gives it away.
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What's my point you ask? Obviously it didn't sink in in my previous post so here it is again:
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It is hard to take someone's thesis seriously when they are clearly not well informed. This is why this site has turned into a tabloid piece of crap and I guess JJ and the likes of you are ok with it. To all according to his intellect I guess. Carry on.

Friday Sermon

Jamshid,

I simply love your analysis and knowledge of history. You are a true Iranian Patriot. Thank you!

Some of You STILL Don't Get It

Whether the sermon was given by Khamenei, that Indian son of a whore Moussavi Hendi or anyone else in that band of morons, the point remains the same. Moussavi Hendi may not have given the sermon, but by April of 1980 he called all of the shots. You couldn't even take a shit without invoking the Koran and yelling "Long Live Imam Khomeini" in mid-push. You had to yell it loud enough so that the Revolutionary Guards could report back that you are loyal to the revolution.

The singular goal of the IRI, from the moment that bearded turd's plane landed at Mehrabad in early 1979, has been to permanently eradicate any semblance of secularism in Iranian society, and replace it with Arab ideology. By creating organizations with names like "The Assembly of Experts", it is very clear that they want to create a society of 70 million sheep. They know better than anyone else what is right for Iran and Iranians. After all, they are "experts". And to think there are some people who actually buy and truly believe this pile of bullshit those criminals are selling.

I can't beleive

that this Kesafat, Qumars Bolourchian, is a Hezbollahi.

Qumars, I shash on the Mohr that you pray on and I shit on the Qor'ann that you press your stupid forehead against!

Hey Jamshid,

took a while before you recovered from the last humiliation hey?

Be careful how far you lose it this time. I wouldn't say anything that you may have to be forced to apologize for later.

You're clearly unworthy of any civilized discussion. It's a proven fact. Even here you act like an attack dog attacking anything and everything that questions "Saltanat." You want to pretend Bahai'sm is the same az Zoroastriansm, you show your own ignorance.

Zoroastrianism has been accepted by Islam from the very beginning and during Qajar era we had many Zoroastrians in Iran. The question was related to what was IMPOSED on Iran. I said why didn't people convert back to the pre-imposed religion (Z). Your evasion was that if Bahai's converted they would be killed. May be, but not Zoroastrians, and not the new Christians who were being converted by European missionaries.

The thing is seeing how you've picked a losing side, you are just avoid the question.

What are you saying that the great Reza Khan had the power to forcibly remove Chadors but he couldn't protect people if they converted to Zoroastrianism? So the Muslim fanatics allowed a despotic strongman to touch their women, but they didn't let him stop the supposed mass killings of Zoroastrians? Whatabout during the wonderous raign of your "Arbab" Pahlavi Jr? Why didn't everyone convert then? Why didn't HE convert himself? Huh?

You don't have an answer, and more importantly you don't have integrity. Nothing you say has any proof, such as the rediculous notion that "great majority of Iranians" were Zoroastrians at the beginning of Safavid Iran. Pure fanasies and brainwashed exaggeration... That's why I'm not dignifying you with further responses and no one else should either.

As far as your racist biggotry regarding washing up to pray: You know what Hazrate Mohammad (PBUH) said "Al Nezafato men-al Iman!"

Ma'aslam.

Re: Friday Sermon

Duped, It was Khamenei who gave the Firday Sermon that Jahanshah was refering to in his article. But at that time, Khomeini's will and words were often communicated to the people by the other high ranking akhoonds like Khamenei, as no one would have dared to make such speech without the direct approval of khomeini.

So what is your point? Everything in his article still holds true, regardless of whether ahkoond <Khome.> made the speech, or akhoond <Khame.> on behalf of <Khome.> made the speech. The difference is no more than the difference in the spelling. You have FAILED to convince us that the main points in the article are not valid.

Good catch and nice try though... But as they say in here, no cigar... 

Jahanshah Rashidian, Thanks for this well thought article

I love this Iranian expression: “Gorg zadeh aghabat gorg khahat shod” (Born to wolf will turn to a wolf eventually).

That said, those who try discredit this writing by whether Khomeini gave Friday sermon or not and ignoring all the facts of three decades of savagery, barbarism, and genocide of Iranian culture and people belong to mullah mafia circle. They are indeed mullah zadeh

not a serious piece.

The author is so clueless that he think Khomeini gave Friday prayer sermons. How the hell do you expect people to take your argument seriously after such a clear false claim?
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Where did this Friday prayer sermon take place? Tehran University? Qom? Planet Mars?
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A monkey with a slightest memory of the revolution and the years immediately following would know that no such Friday prayer sermon took place. So why would this site publish articles with such glaringly obvious mistakes in it? Can't find better and more informed contributors?
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JJ I am waiting for an answer.

Re#2: Q

Q, you ignorantly say this: "why didn't everyone convert back to Zoroastrianism During Ghajar..."

Why? DUH! Because they would instantly be killed! DUH!

If you dared to preach against Islam or for another religion (eg, Bahai), you would be thrown in prison and executed. Ask Baha. That leaves people without another choice. The only choice would be a forced Islam. Islam would be all they know.

One of Islam's grand rule is that if you are a moslem and then you reject Islam, you become a "morted" and you should instantly be put to death. It's in Koran, go read it. Do a text search for "morted"  in any online Farsi Koran.

In fact a great majority of Iranians were still Zorostrian and their ranks were even growing, up to the begining of the Safavid dynasty. The Safavid kings then took care of those "infidels" by massacring them and imposing such tough laws against them that most of them had no choice but to convert to Islam.

Excluding a few who stood in the minority, Iranians never chose to be moslems, they were forced to. Then after the passage of time and generations, and after moslems became the majority, they thought that Islam is all there was, and that it was "natural" to be a moslem.

Q, you are either an ignorant or a "clever" lier. But I think you are both.

Re: Daryush

You keep saying read, read, read... hala to ke khodet enghadr khoondi kojasho gerefti? You are still as ignorant as someone who can't even read.

Re: Q

Q you again? With the same backwarded and outmoded opinions?

You say "The so-called cultural revolution is OVER..." Really? Is it over or is it still in progress? If it's over, then why the IRI still has to "enforce" hejab? 

Then you say this bit" "50 years for forced Westernization..." refering to the Pahlavis. "Forced"??? Reza I forced the removal of hejab and the removal of mullahs from the power structure, which I am glad he did, but what else? Under his son, you could wear a mini or a chador or a roosari, and noone would bother you. Where was the forcing? I agree that there was excess, but not forced.

Then you say this: "What does any of this have to do primitive Arabs as you call it..." YOU DON'T KNOW? I'll tell you then by asking what is sangsaar? What is marrying more than one woman? What is marrying a 9 years old girl? What is this stupid hejab? What is cutting off limbs? This is how they have to do with primitive Arabs. Got it?

Then you say this: "If Iran was really "Arabized" as you exaggerate, shouldn't the Arab countries have welcomed this..." The Islamization and Arabization of Iran has nothing to do with the Arab countries. You could arabize Iran and yet politically challenge the Arab nations. They ARE arabizing Iran by Islamizing Iran. The proof is you who is a typical "be Arab khod bakhteh".

A personal question: Do you beat your chest for Hussein? Do you mourn his death? What about Ali?

You say: "... Iranian "culture" has an islamic component as a fact of History. Trying to excercise this fundemental element of today's Iranian culture is to deny reality". I agree. But Iranian culture also has an un-Islamic component as well. Trying to oppose THIS fundemental element of the Iranian culture, which IRI does plenty, is to deny the reality too.

Then you say this: "... It would be as stupid as... Greeks rejecting Christianity in favor of Zeus". Really? I don't remember Christianity being imposed on the Greeks by the force of sword? Do you? And don't give me the bankrupt bit that Iranians accepted the invading Arabs 1400 years ago, with "open arms". To that I say only one thing: BULLSHIT.

As always I find it very entertaining to expose you for what you really are. Now go "wash up and pray" as you said once in a previous comment. Go pray to a god that his prophet had sex with a nine years old girl. Go pray to a god that allows victorious moslems take the women from the defeated tribes, even married ones, as "war-prize". Mohamad did it, why shouldn't the rest of the moslems? Go pray to a god that orders the unfaithful woman to be stoned to death. Go pray to a racist god that encourages religious apartheid. Go pray to a murdering god that encourages the slaughering of those who choose not to be a moslem.

Go pray to the god of Arabs and ask yourself is it the writer of this article who is obsessed with Arabs, or is it YOU?

You need to read more

Oh boy I am not sure how to answer you. I think the best is to begin reading more about the Iranian History. I still am not sure what your point is but I know your mentality and feel that you, like many like yourself in LA or western United States, are misguided by putting apples and oranges together in order to become hateful about something that you don't know much about. That's probably why you are hateful, since hate is from extreme fright, which comes to place from ignorance. Read my friend read. I am not sure what your interests are, but since you have attacked this issue I would suggest read the more recent Iranian history say from two or three hundred years ago. You may want to look at even more recent history "Iran between the two revolution". For learning a bit about Iranian relation to Islam they are many books, but you may also read the more recent "There is no God but God" to get some knowledge. The more you read the better you can analyse your thoughts...

Are Iranians sympathetic to their captors in Iran?

Stockholm Syndrome
Are Iranians sympathetic to their captors in Iran?

Tina Ehrami
August 29, 2006
iranian.com

A couple of days ago I read an article in the papers about an Austrian woman who had been captivated since the age of 10 and had just managed to escape from her captor. She had spent 8 years of her youth in a dark and damp cellar in a child molester's house. When she escaped and introduced herself to one of the neighbors, she was described as calm and normal. After the police questioned what had happened during this period of time, she said to have had "sexual contact" with her captor, but did not elaborate. She seemed down to earth and in a perhaps disturbing way not negative when describing her captor.

Some analysts say she probably has the Stockholm syndrome, which means that victims over time become sympathetic to their captors. The name derives from a 1973 hostage incident in Stockholm, Sweden. At the end of six days of captivity in a bank, several kidnap victims actually resisted rescue attempts, and afterwards refused to testify against their captors.

The whole story about this Austrian woman makes me wonder about Iranians in Iran who had lived through and with the regime of the Islamic Republic. In a sense, the Islamic Republic captivated the country with all the people in it. Only this time the captivators were not strangers who came jumping from behind a bush, but were neighbors, friends or even relatives. With their unnaturally imposed religion, law and values they captivated their own people and turned their country into a dark and damp cellar!

After a while the Iranian people being captivated by their captors gave up their fight, their resistance, their revolt against what was happening to them. Some found a way to escape, some did not have the courage or the means, some were too tired. The ones who stayed silently and slowly transformed from being the victim into being an accomplice (!), a being that is used to abuse and captivation. They had accepted their captor for what he was and what he did to them and began to think that this was their part in life.

The young Austrian woman spent the most important years of her life, the age in which ones character is being formed, in an unnatural and disturbing setting. When she was asked how she felt about her captivation she answered that because of her captivation she was able to stay away from the "bad things in life" like alcohol, cigarettes or bad company! The damage has been done. Her character has been formed in a way that will probably never recover into a character that will be able to function normally in society.

This situation is similar to Iranians born in Iran after the Islamic revolution. These people suffer from this same type of Stockholm syndrome. Even if one day the Islamic Republic by some miracle would crumble and fall, how will the freed Iranians function in a new society? Will they step out that dark and damp cellar and smell the fresh air or will they cry out of despair because their only point of reference, their only leader/ captor has gone?

Will it be difficult for them to step out that cellar, because they do not know what will be waiting out there for them? Will they be afraid of what other people might think of them? Are they afraid it might be more difficult for them to confront themselves with the cruelties they have been through than to continue living in the dark cellar where they at least know what to expect? I hope that all the people fighting the captors will be ready to guide the captives once the cellar door opens.

Kamangir: typical evasion of real issues

Kamangir, your argument makes no sense. The theory that Islam was "forced" on Iran has been debunked many times. But even if you believe that, how do you explain Muslims Indonesia, Bangladesh and China? Even if you believe that, how do you explain latin America? How do you explain so many Iranians (like 99%) remaining muslim even after Arab rule?

You are wrong about Islam being "forced" on Iran. But even if that was so, why didn't everyone convert back to Zoroastrianism During Ghajar or Reza Khan's time? Is it possible that great many of Iranians actually want to be Muslim? Just like the great majority of Greeks and Latin Americans choose to be Christian today? Has that occurred to you?

Your writing is usually much better at your blog: //kamangir.net/

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SHITlamic Republic.

Interesting point Mehdi

These professors were very lgical in their thinking, if for no reason other than studying math and physics so much. They were almost all very decent people and very intelligent. How was it that they couldn't speak their minds anymore and had submitted to such a system of ignorance and barbarism?

--------------------------------------------

I often have the same question. But as a non-science person, I think I may shed some light on this issue.

Studying Math or Engineering does not make one "smart" in a political sense, in most cases it is quite the contrary. Politics is not about "logic" it's about people. Our culture like those of many other third world countries unduly OVER-EMPHASIZES science education. We worship doctors and engineers and consider them "smart" because of the sheer number of books they have to read or formulas they have to memorize.

I'm someone who was basically ostercized for not choosing a scientific field when everyone was telling me I should, and that before the revolution. The factors are beyond cultural actually. Jews in Eastern Europe and Russia were often scientists and engineers because that was the non-political career choice available to them. The dominate class in Iran did not want any competition (it's true under Shah and IRI), therefore it was "safe" to go for these fields and not "lose your head."

But political genius is something totally different. I can give you a guy who can perform the most difficult surgeries or build the best lasers, solve the most complex math equations. And then, I could give you a second guy, who is not very book-smart, but has the ability to get up on a wooden box and with one powerful speech mobilize hundreds of people. Which do you think is more useful in politics? Our scientists and "University" intelligencia never really had this quality. Most purposefully stayed away from politics and could in fact be called "dumb" when it came to this question. The trend continues heavily to this day among Iranians everywhere. It's a crying shame.

Being smart politically means knowing your audience, it means touching people's hearts, addressing their desires, putting forth solutions to their problem, respecting them. These are the skills that were only provided by the Mosque in the 70's. That's how they won this fight, fair and square. Most of us still don't get it. We try to put logic formulas on complex human situations. Most science oriented people lack these basic skills in our community. They don't know how to channel their emotions. Most Iranian "scientists"  I know sound like clueless assholes when discussing politics. They have plenty of passoin, but they are incapable of using their passion to move people. When they get passionate, they just sound bitter, racist and authoritarian. We have to start by encouraging our kids to think critically and not forcing them to be doctors or engineers.

There is a serious political power vacuum that is filled by extremists and authoritarians like the Mujahedeen or Monarchists. 

Jahanshah you're Right!

For those who believe that the arabization of Iran (under the mask of Islamization) is not taking place, you should be reminded that for couple of years the national anthem of Iran was in fact in Arabic (this is the most bizzare event ever!) the anthem of a country in a foreign language (do you remember the anjaza, anjaza) first words of that nasty arabic song? Have a look a today's official calendar in Iran, day after day the whole year is full of arabo-muslim 'events' which is usually either the birth or death or assasination of some arab. Iran has a very rich history, its own history so I wonder who the hell and what the hell these arabo-islamic events are. The descendants of the Arabs who invaded Iran, are ruling according to their own way of life. The cancer of Islam and arabism in Iran is eating away the very foundations of our Iranian and Persian essence.  To the guy who claims that writer of the artice is too obsessed with 'arabs' I just have to tell you that the ones obssesed with 'arabs' are the islamo-fascists of Iran who still have this old tribal conflict with other arabs the sunnis. As an Iranian, I'm sure that one day, hopefuly soon, we will destroy the arabo-muslim mafia of Iran, kicking them back to arabic hot deserts where their criminal ali, hussain, omar , hassan and fatemeh and other arabs came from. They've got the wrong country. Now we know who they are and they have shown us and the world that they are NOT Iranian. And finally to 'Q', Greek regimes have not forced Christianity by force over secular Greece. They do not refer to their ancient history as corupt and they do not replace their own history by what Jesus was eating or doing everyday. Same thing applies to Italy and Spain and other countries. Please do not even compare these nations and their governments to the arabo-muslim criminal crap in Iran you call, Government.

Under-estimation

I think most of us under-estimate the power of religious beliefs, or should I say religious brainwashing? This thing is powerful. I think most of us think so rationally that we don't take such beliefs seriously - we dismiss it, not really realizing that some people actually believe in this stuff.

Another thing to realize, I think, is that a large group of uneducated or barberic or uncivilized individuals can and usually will override a small group of intelligent, educated or civilized individuals. I was a student at Polytechnic when this whole thing was going on. One day after the universities opened up, after the so-called Cultural Revolution, I remember I was walking around in the hallways and wondering how it is possible that a group of uneducated, uncultured and uncivilized kids (the so-called Islamic Association) could override all these highly educated professors of engineering? These professors were very lgical in their thinking, if for no reason other than studying math and physics so much. They were almost all very decent people and very intelligent. How was it that they couldn't speak their minds anymore and had submitted to such a system of ignorance and barbarism? Well the best reason I could come up with at the time was that this was because they were under the threat of death - in other words it was the guns that forced them into submission. But that wasn't a very satisfactory explanation because one could then ask why would guns be controlled and used by the morons and not the intellectuals? But the better reason I found is that they didn't have a large number. There was only a small few who were intelligent and civilized who could see what was really going on. They could not stand up to the massive assault of the ignorance. I think if we realize that for real, we can then plan a realistic path to a better Iran. It may not be a fast track but a sure one. Let's see if the intellectuals of Iran can form into a large group! And don't think it is an easy job, many have tried and "apparently" failed!

You are TOO OBSESSED with "Arabs"

Rashidian, for God's sake...

First, The so-called cultural revolution is OVER. What did transpire was nothing more than a natural backlash against 50 years for foced Westernization complete with Euro-style disdain for conservative religious values which were prevelant (and still are) in Iranian society. If you declare war on people's religious identity, there will be a backlash with excesses the other way. Just look at post-Saddam Iraq or ANY similar situation.

Second, What does any of this have to do "primitive Arabs" as you call it? You should know that Iranian Islam is vastly different than those practiced in Arab or Asian countries. While there is solidarity exacerbated by the post-colonial experience, there are huge differences and points of distinction. If Iran was really "Arabized" as you exaggerate, shouldn't the Arab countries have welcomed this? I fear your over-use of "Arab" is an attempt to gain sympathy for the blatenlty racist elements of the Iranian diaspora. Shame on you.

Third, like it or not, contemporary Iranian "culture" has an islamic component as a fact of History. Trying to excercise this fundemental element of today's Iranian culture is to deny reality. It would be as stupid as:

- Greeks rejecting Christianity in favor of Zeus

- Latin America rejecting Catholicism and Spanish on account of forced conversions and slavery.

- Egyptians rejecting Islam and Arabic language for "Old Kingdom" religions.

- Irish rejecting the Anglican Church AND the Catholic Church AND the English language.

Stupid.

Fiction

I stopped reading this article after this sentence:
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"On April 18, 1980, Ayatollah Khomeini, the founder of the Islamic Republic, in his Friday Prayer sermon, "
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Khomeini never gave a Friday prayer sermon after the revolution.