SANCTIONS

rosie, thanks for trying to bring the discussion back to...

what it should be about: anti-Iran sanctions.

As far as I'm concerned the present sanctions are counter-productive, harmful only to the Iranian people and especially designed as framework for escalation and ultimately war.

I am against all the existing and future sanctions against Iran, period. The present sanctions and the ones under discussion, mainly by the right wing Jewish lobby henchmen and women in the administration and the congress, have not hurt the regime's elite at all. On the other hand they have hurt American business, in the form of keeping American energy companies out of Iran's lucrative energy market, and helping the US rivals like China to snatch huge energy deals with rock bottom prices.  As we saw in the case of Mark Rich(real rich) only the middlemen are benefiting from these sanctions - a lot of those middlemen are the regime's hands too. So the net results of these sanctions have hurt both the Iranian and American working people, while the elite are reaping huge profits. That's why I believe ALL sanctions must be lifted as part of the negotiation processes between the US and Iran.

That said, I could support sanctions against INDIVIDUALS in the IRI regime. 

Love you too, dear Joe!

I am going to promptly spread the word among every nice Iranian and American girl that I know... that an intelligent eligible gentleman is there for grab on Iranian.com :-)

Don't hate me if you get bombarded by emails, just kidding :-)

First of all, I want to say./sanctions guys& not black and white

 that anyone who is thinking the most horrible things about me right now is largely justified and I am very sorry for my behavior to several people. So you don't need to remind me uf the extent of it unless you feel you must.

Secondly, on sanctions. If anyone's unomfortable with this thread or distracted from the sanction discussoins, Imaybe it could be a good idea to move to the other sanctions thread above or at least divide your time because it seems to be the desire, or better said NEED, of many of the old timers to air a lot of dirty linen.  And on that basis, so I'll retract my statement from below.

This is not as black and white as people are making it to be on either 'side'.  So Ihave to tell you all first that the real old timers know that my behavior here deteriorated radically for a VERY unique situation on this site, or at least they know that Rosie T. was very different. Please try to accept this at least as a working hypothesis, the people who didn't know me then, so you can give me a more objective hearing.

So  here are a couple of offhand examples of what's not black and white. Sorry, Craig, you're belligerent when it comes to the 'Left', and you don't listen, you have been so very much even with me. Please don't bite me. The Wife, well, she is married for some time to a highly respected Iranian man on this site. So it can't be so black and white. It can't be. And anyway, she's well-liked by many Iranians here.

Another point, about Jaleho, and Jaleho,  say this with absolutely no bad intent and with my apologies for my behavior toward you, but you have to admit that in the fallout of June 12 your views were certainly as much of a minority here as any say center to right American's or Zionist's or whoever on this site. And not well-loved at all by most. Nor your attitude either by many. Again, no reprroach whatsoever. Just a fact.

So it's not so black and white. And I'm the proof of that. Because the old timers know that before I started succumbing to these UNIQUE pressures on this site, I was known as a mediator, and I felt as comfortable here as any place I'd ever felt in my life. And I was quite well-liked in general and respected, and this was home. So I'M not black and white.  

ONLY THESE DAMN THREADS ARE BLACK AND WHITE.

So bearing this in mind, if the goal here among some of you is to drive these people away, it is proof positive that their discomforts as a 'minority' have some basis.  Some, I said.   Iranians who share similar views are largely attacked too but not attempted to be driven off threads. As for personal hysteria, aside from me, I could enumerate MANY cases of it here among Iranians. So that's not a legitimate criterion imho.

_____________

Last thing for now. I said it before and I'll say it again. Irandokht and I and others did our very best to help the website by making a truce. We couldn't ever have done it alone. We had help  I wish you two, Craig and Wife, had tried to respect that just a little bit more, for ME personally. I know it could be hard for you. It's just a wish.. And Wife I wish I'd known about this identity business. But I'm sure the reasons aren't so black and white.

Mr. Joe

[if i could have only one wish i would ask god to give understanding to all people, or have every american visit iran at least once.]

wonderful sentiment man, You have my hopes and prayers as well.

-YT 

?

Is there a synopsis available since I last read all the comment? or do I have to read all to see where the main subject is at?

btw, did anyone miss me? But seems like some concessions been made, or should I say confessions? ;-)

-YT 

P/S Rosie, How was your vacation ?

Where to begin? A friendly note to Craig

"Because I'm a pretty mainstream-America guy and I'm pretty sure I've never known an American who would bother with giving you the time of day once they figured out what you were all about. "

Are you sure about that? Mainstream where? New York? DC? LA? Nashville? Miami? San Francisco? Alabama (as was mentioned, and I believe you are mainstream there)

I personally go across the US, mostly populated cities and hang out in many corners. I do not agree with your analysis. You were born in the US and some of us have not. Most people here know this country well, even better than you. Just being born without exploring the realities doesn't translate with a better understanding of a place.

I have lived here close to thirty years, that's not much difference than being born in a place.
We are not naive individuals who sit in an area populated by "our own" crowd. We are participating in every level of social, political and economic life of this country. Who do you think you are speaking to?

In hanging out, if ever asked, I explain the Iranian situation and hope that they ask more questions or give feedbacks. Not similar to your mindset, but an open mind ready to learn. What do you mean by saying the "normal" (I believe that is what you mean) American won't give me/us the time of the day?

I am not interested in either teaching you or debate with you, but I AM very interested to know where you live and perhaps follow it with a suggestion:  get out of there.
Go out and explore America. Maybe a city here and there, Talk to different people other than "your own", it won't hurt. Just a friendly advice.

On the final note, there is no need for any American, individual or you to be here. This is a forum designed for the Iranian American to talk, explore and exchange ideas. Any individual from any background is welcomed here also; we are one of the most successful people, in many areas, which mean we have well adjusted to life in the US. If you have an understanding, or are willing to realize things that you didn't know about us, you are welcome to explore with us. You as an individual failed to gain that trust and friendship of the people here. Speaks of your character.

We have become familiar with a new place and now fully participate in the American life. Coming here, for you the least that you can offer, is a bit of respect and try to adjust and learn our concerns/customes and country of origin. Try to adjust and learn what we might have gone through to fit in a foreign society.  Along with that, we will hear your side also. Otherwise, what use are you here? for us, or yourself?
It's not the quantity of "American" born as you care so much about in this site that matters, but the quality of exchange.
No reply necessary, hope you think when you read.

Good luck in your life.

Jaleho,

Hajagha ham salam miresoneh.

He went to get his visa to travel to Morroco before the SANCTIONS hit, his folks may have come from there originally. Who knows? He never tells you the truth anyway. 

Joe L.

I think you have one of the most effective ideas.  Just as Americans, it would be effective for all Iranians, specially the hardliners to travel and see other countries.  This will open their eyes as well.  We don't have to copy each others culture, but we can learn and benefit from each others positive points.

Best Regards

Last wish

i wish to marry a woman with as much intellect as Jaleho.
peace.

Why i am not going to apologize

i aint going to apologize for this fool only because you all know how much hate goes around in this country. you also have come to know that almost all the hate is from european descendant. you have not seen anything here. our history is violent and racist. we are a product of european criminals who took refuge in this god's green land. this is only a tiny taste of the old white mentality, we call it hate mentality in my neighborhood. still old whites want the days back. we say dream on to that.
if i could have only one wish i would ask god to give understanding to all people, or have every american visit iran at least once.
thats why i am here, i got bounded with iran almost instantly. if i get a chance i will write about my experiences in detail. just never got to it.

Mola, Joe, Ari

Mola jan, that shotor of yours is as good as Nasreddin himself, thanks for the quality chuckles:-)

Dear Joe, many of Iranians here have lots of open-minded American friends. Even in the south, you see more Americans graduate from the old college of hate and racism these days. The monumental election of Obama was the best example of how the new generation of good Americans are burying alive the element of old slavery, racism, and war mongering. Those who stick to old methods are truly un-American in a land which is defined by the most rapid change for the better!

The dying generation always goes away whining :-)

Dear Ari, thought so!

What's the difference b/ American wife and PC?

Programmer Craig is a typical Empire-loving FOX-type American macho seemingly with little education to afford  him overcome the widespread brainwashing that the average Americans are subjected to since childhood. The educated and smart Americans do overcome the propaganda in youth. BTW, the same is true anywhere else in the world also, except in countries like Iran for example, the brainwashing tactics is too crude and unsophisticated, thus most people laugh them off. In many other countries, they don't even have the slightest means of maintaining a propaganda and a concocted narrative to subject people to a uniform "brain".

That said, Programmer Craig also enjoys the typical unique honesty of good Americans which is rare among people anywhere in the world. He is honest about his opinion, he does not hide behind multiple alias, and even when his ID is deleted, he comes back with the same ID with an ex-added to it. In other words, he's smart enough to know that the regular viewers know him because of his ideas, not his ID. Although he has been opposed many times because of his anti-Iranian perspectives in an Iranian site, he doesn't not feel like he has to hide himself by an un-American dishonesty.

American wife on the other hand is too dull to recognize that it is the stench of her anti-Iranian character seeping through the internet, not her ID that is so repulsive for many Iranians. She thinks she can generalize the anti-Iranian abuse that her own husband is willing to tolerate from her, to random Iranians on the net. So, when they show their disgust with one of her IDs, she goes and changes to another ID :-)

Talk about DUMB Americans :-) :-)

Now we all know how "the devil" thinks

Read this:
""Joe L" is obviously a fake personality"

oh i am real. you have learned to ignore the voices, listen to me, i am real. when i lived in iran i realized that ignorant friends are more dangerous than wise enemies. you are not a patriot just because you are ignorant. think long and hard about this white boy.

Irandokt: you got it. not everyone lives in Alabama, in this land we got room for all cultures and besides couple of states we dont wed our siblings ;)

And another thing!

IRANdokht, why is it that the few (westerner) Americans who manage to find their way here keep leaving? My theory is that they get chased off by you and your crew. I have that theory because you tried to do it to me, and I've seen you try to do it to others. So where do you get off claiming that the couple of (westerner) Americans that stuck it out here are so NOT representative of the American public in general? Where ARE these imaginary Americans who you approve of and who you claim approve of you? Can you show me? Because I'm a pretty mainstream-America guy and I'm pretty sure I've never known an American who would bother with giving you the time of day once they figured out what you were all about. 

Point out for me which (non-Iranian) Americans on this website you approve of. I want to vet them a bit.

Sanctions,

 Another negative aspect of sanctions against Iran and or any other state would be its (the movements) independence.

These sanctions are supposedly to paralyze the state causing it to collapse. In political terms, wouldn't it be the same as military interference? Would this social change, backed with foreign elements considered independent?

And even if the sanctions are successful, would the people be ready to take the revolution on and install their own state the way they want it?

This green movement, to me is a social change that the players are changing, within the system, so it is easier to imagine. But if the whole IRI is collapsed tomorrow, what would the outcome be?

Peace, 

Shaayad Keh

ID

Actually there was one nice American "Joe L." who told us that you do not speak for him.

"Joe L" is obviously a fake personality, so he/she doesn't count. I remember seeing comments from this person 6 months ago where he claimed to be American and then went on to do nothing but talk about how ashamed he was of his country. Only an Iranian who would want to believe what "it" was saying would fall for that routine. That isn't how Americans talk, no matter what their politics.

I don't know what other "hamvatan" you mean, except maybe Rosie? But Rosie wasn't here until a couple hours ago.

And Rosie - I was not part of your carefully negotiated truce. The best I could manage was to be silent, because I knew it was important to you. I have no interest in a truce with this crew, most of whom I have identified by name. I'd prefer it if Iranian.com had an "ignore list" so that I didn't even need to read their comments, and never saw their posts. 

Sanctions, a modest proposal

As I have said before, I am against sanctions in principle, as I am against violence and religious states. But I do not participate in discussions about them in depth because I am not familiar enough with the economics or the history involved to contribute much. (For instance I can't knowledgeably compare Iran with South Africa or Iraq in any detail).

But from a pragmatic point of view, when you hear Hillary using terms like the 'Resistance', you know there are going to be sanctions. So perhaps a more realistic way to approach the topic would be to arrive at some kinds of suggestions for the most 'humanitarian' sanctions possible, which would be something that could be presented to the lawmakers. I would even imagine the State Department monitors this site, I would if I were them. It's the only large 'mainstream' (not academic) true cross-section of expat opinion online!

Craig said recently, as I recall, that the present sanctions should remain but he was not sure about new ones. So you see people can have flexible opinions. Well I don't profess to even understand the present ones that well, but others do.  I posted the article below from Foreign Policy recently.

I do not agree with several geopolitical premises the author asserts but I also recognize that they are probably the same premises that Obama, Hillary (the President of Foreign Affairs) and most of Congress (as well as the majority of the American general public) share. Maybe it would be a good idea to look at the article and see if some concrete recommendations to the 'powers that be' of immediate pragmatic  value could be arrived at and proposed (by writing articles here, letters to representatives in Congress etc.),--something they would seriously consider. The author proposes "humanitarian" sanctions in detail. Collectively, you are more familiar with the internal Iranian terrain than the author. Brainstorming things like this could be useful.

Here is the article:

//iranian.com/main/news/2009/08/06/crippling-sanctions-will-still-be-ineffective

What did Sanctions do to Iraqis?

"Most research on the subject stated that the sanctions contributed to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children and other Iraqis for health-related reasons owing to disease from lack of clean water from banned manufacture and restricted import of chlorine, lack of medicine, impoverishment, and other factors.

1. In May 2000 a United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) survey noted that almost half the children under 5 years suffered from diarrhoea,

2.  Between 1990 and 1998, over one fifth of Iraqi children stopped enrolling in school, consequently increasing the number of non-literates and losing all the gains made in the previous decade.

The per capita income in Iraq dropped from $3510 in 1989 to $450 in 1996, heavily influenced by the rapid devaluation of the Iraqi dinar.[19]

This is what wikipedia reports.

It's much easier to hate

It's much easier to hate than love. Think about that.

"Dance Me To The End of Love" Leonard Cohen

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pA5UhNaYw0&feature=player_embedded

Thanks Rosie

 I tried to read through the posts to find out what all this hopla is about with no success. If the words "I" and "you" are eliminated from the content of the posts, content will be a lot more clearer.

My 2 cents...

Peace,

Shaayad Keh

C'mon people, enough already PS!

For the people who are aware of this, I really feel this is very disrespectful to Irandokht and to me and to  Q and Ayhab who helped us come to a PUBLIC truce the other day. (Oh and to yourselves and the site). If ID and I could do it, so can you.I don't CARE who said what first. That's not the point. It takes two (or more) to tango. It is for the benefit of the website tto end all this. (And please don't start, those three people have  divergent political views, me too...this is not Cowboys and Indians. (Consider Ayhab's blog on Revenge for IRI Regime versus Jaleho, and yet they constantly get equated. Distorted perceptions of each other everywhere). 

We all have a lot to think about and we all have to start fresh. I am not proud of my role in the general animosity here lately. All over the place I have been ranting and raving. I can't believe it. I am curtailing my activities here until I make sure I have cooled down. Everyone is very upset. Most of us had a brief moment of unity and now with the crackdown we are traumatized. This is WORSE than the Gaza thread wars because it shoots us in the heart. Really. Think about it.

Another thing, I predicted sanctions would be the issue which would become divisive to the delicate 'center-left' coalition which had formed onsite in the Green movement. And most particularly with those who were not in the movement but were starting to give a lot of moral support. I was right. This should not be the case. Why are we shooting each other in the heads over this? Does it help? No. Can we be reasonable just for the sake of getting better at being reasonable people. And also because...

having pulled back from here this week, I have to tell you that all these long threads read like the global poster child for Iran as a sewer pit. Jahanshah announced several weeks ago it is up to us to self-regulate (and FLAG when necessary). He is right. That was his original vision and it has been almost two years and it is time. This is the Iranian online model democracy, ieverybody says so. If we want it to be the garbage can of cyberspace that is now  our choice. 

My suggestion is that from now on when we have serious conflict, we should try to resolve it by e-mail, or better by phone. If it gets too serious we should ask a mutual party to mediate. I do not agree that there is a clear difference between personal and ideological situations once hate is involved. Hate is hate. I also think there is too little flagging now that NO ONE is combing the threads to moderate. But we should be equal opportunity flaggers, not favor people because you like them or their politics or whatever. Half the time we don't even know we're doing it but it's only human. I do not intend to flag until I am participating regularly again but I think other people should.

For myself I would rather if anyone wants to discuss any of this in depth with me, please contact me offsite at my account (click on my name), I will be happy to hear from you.

When I return to regular participation here my intention will be to have amicble discussions with you, Jaleho.  Hey, Farah and I did it. Why not us? That should be veeery interesting. I can't wait.  lol

Me

PS And on that optimistic note, the cheesiest a propos song in the world I could find:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABxAXK4aEos

Dear Gitdoun

 The subject of this article is of course the US sanctions and how they won't be hurting anyone but the poor and the middle class in Iran.

To see that someone would impersonate an Irani to speak ill of the ones who are against the sanctions and try to fish the muddy waters was a little too much to handle. 

When Iranians agree with NIAC on the cruel outcome of the sanctions and the fact that the strategy has failed everywhere else and in Iran already, as you may have noticed a lot of us with different political views, spoke up. One person kept attacking everyone and promoting the sanctions and even military attack, implying that he speaks for all Americans. This is not about Iranian vs Americans and it's not about people hating each other. It's about what and whom we care about and don't want to see more miserable going through their every day lives.

So in a way, we didn't completely go off on a tangeant. When someone impersonating an Iranian came to agree with the allegations and accusations spewed around by exPC, the lies and deception had to be exposed once and for all.

IRANdokht

Capt ayhab,   I see

Capt ayhab,

I see that you use the word “racist” as frequently as I see Al Sharpton use it to bully anyone who speaks the truth, to discredit anyone who disagrees with you or anyone who is not subscribed to your misguided ideology. You have called me that as well. You use that word like “noghl” and “nabat”. You just use it without any regard to logic or the definition of that word. You think Southern United States is filled with “white racist” and San Franciso with “great intellects!!$$%%&”. That’s how incredibly out of touch you are with the real world, its actually very sad.

So, once in for all, I would like to ask you, how do you define someone as “Racist”? Who is a “Racist”? I don’t watch Sean Hannity or Glen Beck too often, but I am familiar with their views, so explain how they are “Racist”? because they have passion and love for their country, misguided or not, this great country which hosts enemies of it like yourself and provides a forum for them to spit their garbage, they are “white supremacists”?? So explain how come Farhad Kashani and Sean Hanitty and Craig and Koroush are racists?

Of course no one expects much from “Nation of Islam” or “Al Sharpton” or “IRI supporters like you”, but I’m about to expose you, so explain WHO IS A RACIST? We all know that people like you and Sharpton and all these Rappers who he supports and Farakhan and Khomeini and Bin Ladan and you are the ultimate racists yourselves, but we wanna pin you down, so TALK.

im so lost here

im just curious. but.. umm.. how come everyone has gone on a tangent conversation on personal stuff rather on the subject at hand??? --peace    p.s. for some reason i have hunch people are going to throw slurs at me now!  lol

its Her! "I'm Christian I'm white I must be right!". Praise the

Lord. Now we know who we're talking too. Thank you Irandokht. It's the one with the Iranian husband, Khak bar sar on mard! The acid trip West Coast flower child and the lover of Bob Dylan music. Poor Bob Dylan. The protector of the racist Zionist regime of Israel. 

My advice to her: Khejalat Bekesh!

at least you finally admitted

that you have been lying for weeks under this ID pretending to be Iranian, continued patronizing Iranians and then ridiculing me when I recognize you.

Nice!

go ahead call me names, it's obvious who the liar is. 

IRANdokht

Once again

You're a smart girl.  Don't act so dumb.  This is the typical "you".  Don't put words in my mouth again.  You want to call it a threat.  Go ahead.  It won't make ME sound stupid.  DO NOT assume that you now how I feel.  Ok?  Capice?  GOT IT?  This is the type bullying that annoyingmouse is talking about.  You think you can bully me?  Don't waste your time. 

"...he would never hate Iranians like this lady does."

Yes, you are a liar.  You are a hypocrite in so many ways and so many days that it's a joke with everyone on iranian.com now. 

che khabar e

I am quiet alright no apologies needed. I am not offended at all.

American Wife, Anonymous Fish, Che khabarete

Calm down!

and stop ending every comment to me with "be careful" what are you desperately trying to insinuate here? 

what's with all the different ID names and pretending you're Iranian? first you come here with this new name giving directives on how to be a revolutionary, what Iranians should say, what to do and what not to do. Then you start getting on people's cases, calling me a liar because I recognized you the first day you came here with this new name, now you're threatening me.

who's the hypocrite? who's the liar?

khejalat ham khoob chizieh! 

IRANdokht

IRANdokht,

It's quiet ordinary that peopel who appear to be nice on-line are sometimes the most vicious in person. I rather deal with a genuine anger than a fake smile.