13 ABAN

Thank you Jamshid

for your comments. Good to see you again.

I agree with you completely. Iranians are tired of hearing their government absolve themselves of any responsibility for their mistakes, and being tortured and raped for questioning them. And then hearing that even the tortures and rapes and violence are the fault of America.

Enough already.

Leadership means responsibility, not running away from it.  Iran's leadership has betrayed Iran's people from day 1.

Free Iran for all Iranians.

-Fair

Fair

This was a good article. I agree with your points.

Regarding those individuals that claim the US is responsible for Iranians' suffering during the war, I must say that ultimately, it was khomeini and his thugs who were responsible.

Had khomeini accepted the peace offer in 1982, the war would have ended, and there was nothing the US or anyone else could have done about it.

These people have been habituated to blame everyone else except the regime and its dead leader khomeini for Iranians' suffering. Lies and diversion is their main tools.

check the checker

By far, I am not abusing the topic of the blog, you are. You bring a long list of grievances and crimes commited by the US, trying to justify why an apology from Iran is not needed. When really, none of what you claim about the US justifies Iran taking their diplomats hostage, and other countries that Iran has close ties to today did much more harm to Iran than the US ever did. That is what I address.

1-Chemical weapons:

You claimed in your first post:

"Thousands of Iranians were killed by Chemical weapons supplied and supported by the US during the eight years"

And above you bring a search from counterpunch that says US suppliers supplied biological materials.

I am not saying the US is innocent. I am saying that they were not the suppliers of chemical weapons as you claim. The main suppliers are summarized below:

//www.iraqwatch.org/suppliers/nyt-041303.gif

So get your facts straight.

And furthermore, Germany, who was one of the main suppliers of chemical weapons technology and precursors to Iraq, has very close business ties with Iran today. Why do you not complain about them one bit, let alone demonize them to the extent you do the Americans? Why is it ok for us to have relations with Germany and not the US?

2-The main arms suppliers to Iraq were Russia, France, China, as were the main inflictors of suffering on Iran.

To which you replied

"It is obviousyou have very little knowledge about military conflicts and even less on military technologies."

Interesting. Well your "knowledge" seems to be very selective, as you conveniently omit important things. For example:

"Iraq did have a quite a large armed forces at the time (Iraq had
started quickly to build up its forces planning to attack Iran)"

But you neglect to mention that its armed forces became much bigger during the 8 years, thanks to Russia and France and China and just about every weapons producing country in the world except US and Israel (who delivered weapons to Iran). Iraq started the war with 350 combat aircraft and ended it with over 500- the most sophisticated French and Russian aircraft (even Warsaw Pact countries did not have some of these), despite Iran having shot down 600 during the war. Where did the replacements come from? The US? No, it was Russia and France, and it was these aircraft that were killing thousands of Iranians and choking our country. Not to mention the missiles and tanks that the Russians provided, such that the Iraqi tank deliveries were on the order of all the tanks in NATO/Western Europe at the time. Why do we not complain so much (at all) about Russia, and why didn't IRI take Russian diplomats hostage?

another example of your "knowledge":

"That bird's eye view advantage, along with US political push to finance
Iraqi war machine by its satellite Persian Gulf states and consistant
security council's resolutions against Iran, put Iran in such
disasterous military disadvantage to a point that Iranians could not
even purchase RPGs from any country"

How ridiculous- how does bird's eye view from satellite information and AWACS from the US to the Iraqis prevent Iran from buying an RPG from any country?

The real reason Iran could not buy weapons from any country and Iraq could do so at will was that there was so little international support for Iran- a country that allows itself to take diplomats hostage as a means to pursue international policy. A security council resolution can be vetoed by any of the 5 permanent members, so it was not just the US putting this pressure on Iran. It was also Russia, China, and France.

The inconvenient truth that you omit is the real source of military disadvantage to Iran- Khomeini's isolation of Iran through hostage taking and other acts of stupidity, dismantling of the armed forces and execution and purging of the entire Iranian military high and middle command- one of the best trained best organized commands in the region if not the world. This paved the way nicely for Saddam Hussein to roll into Iran facing minimal resistance on September 22, 1980.

Or the notion that Iran's main supplier of arms was Iraq itself. This shows how clueless you are about military matters. Training a large force on maintaining and operating completely new
weapons systems takes lots of time and money. You just don't capture
equipment and start using it against the enemy. Iraq's ground equipment were mostly Soviet, and Iran's ground forces were almost entirely US and British equipment- making them useless to the Iranians until Iranians could obtain training and build logisitics infrastructure for these new weapons system (at least new to Iran) on a large scale (which would not happen until much later using Syrian, Libyan, NK help). Just like British made Iranian tanks captures by Iraq were useless to Iraq, so they sold them to other countries who eventualy sold some of them back to Iran at a huge profit.

Until the transition to Soviet weapons systems happened, Iran's main supplies for its military came from black market and clandestine deals like Iran Contra. You don't need to lecture me or anybody on US arms transfers to Iran and Tom Cooper's book. I actually know Tom very well for many years now, and if you want to be laughed at go to him and make the statements you made about the military situation. There were many arms transfers to Iran from the US and Israel, and yes, at exorbitant prices, and not just in the period you mentioned. There were also transfers of intelligence from the US to both Iran and Iraq, and in many cases wrong intelligence to prevent any side from getting an advantage. Once again, I never say the US is innocent. I am focused on what is in Iranian people's interest and right for Iranian people.

But then Russia and China sold weapons to both sides (much more and in huge amounts to Iraq) and they were even less innocent. And Western Europe, with which Iran trades much today, was the prime supplier of advanced weaponry, and chemical weapons capabilities to Iraq. Somehow, this is all forgiveable by you. But the US is to blame for everything.

Also, your poor excuse for why Iran took hostages:

"Iran in general was a Third
World nation at the time in a revolutionary turmoil and w/o a
functioning government at the time. "

Just doesn't work. Iran had a very clear person in charge and chain of command, and he had every authority to free or not take the hostages. He and those who supported him were fully responsible, and don't pretend otherwise. In fact, the "government" of Iran had an executive branch whose prime minister Mehdi Bazargan, resigned in protest of this crime.

"Which countries are you talking about? "

Russia, China, and France.

"I can only assume you are talking about post Iran/Iraq war. Hoping that
is the case, then, I do not understand why i should complain about
them? What is so wrong with IRI doing business with the Russians,
Chinese ? "

No I am not, your assumption is wrong. These countries inflicted severe pain, way more than what the US did, on Iran and Iranians. So if you complain about "crimes" against Iran by the US, you should complain at least as much about them, because the damage they are responsible for to Iran is far more than what the US has done.

Revolutionary turmoil is a poor excuse for all of this. South Korea, Phillipines, and Chile all had American backed military dictators, each worse and more brutal than the Shah. Did they take hostages? Did they go through 100 years of civil war and strife? Look where they are today. Their reaction to those dictators was much more civilized than ours was. And you continue to defend that uncivilized reaction. 30 years later. But it is not you who pay for this. It is the youth of Iran who are stuck behind walls and closed doors because of this stupidity.

Like I said, the people of Iran today are tired of "death to America" or death to anybody for that matter. Your continued demonization of America does not serve the interests of the Iranian people, and the Iranian people have clearly stated this in their words and actions and blood.

What America has done to Iran is no worse than what Russia or China or France has done to Iran. If taking American diplomats hostage and flaunting international law was ok and does not warrant an apology, then fairness says that we should show equal hostility towards these 3 countries.

Fair

Well, let's check your facts

Fair,

I think you are abusing the title of your blog. Your title is pointing to your idea of appologizing to Americans for the Hostage Crisis in 1979. However, you end up with lecturing IRI about current issues. each of your passages needs a dedicated topic and a lot of time to fully address them.

1- US was not the supplier of chemical weapons to Iraq, Germans and others were. 

But to start, I am completely comfortable with what I wrote. The US was the first country to supply Iraq with Chemical and Biological supplies according to senate Committee report of 1994, others such as Germans and Dutch followed. The following quick search may help my claim:

According to a Senate Committee Report of 1994 [1]: From 1985, if not earlier, through 1989, a veritable witch's brew of biological materials were exported to Iraq by private American suppliers pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Amongst these materials, which often produce slow, agonizing deaths, were: Bacillus Anthracis, cause of anthrax. Clostridium Botulinum, a source of botulinum toxin. Histoplasma Capsulatam, cause of a disease attacking lungs, brain, spinal cord and heart. Brucella Melitensis, a bacteria that can damage major organs. Clotsridium Perfringens, a highly toxic bacteria causing systemic illness. Clostridium tetani, highly toxigenic. Also, Escherichia Coli (E.Coli); genetic materials; human and bacterial DNA. Dozens of other pathogenic biological agents were shipped to Iraq during the 1980s.

Source: //www.counterpunch.org/blum0820.html

Let's address your other point:

2-The main arms suppliers to Iraq were Russia, France, China, as were the main inflictors of suffering on Iran.

It is obviousyou have very little knowledge about military conflicts and even less on military technologies.

Iraq did have a quite a large armed forces at the time (Iraq had started quickly to build up its forces planning to attack Iran), however, it soon became apparent winning over Iranians was taking much more than hardware. That is where the US came to a great assistance when a massive amounts of information was supplied to Iraqi military through intelligence gathered by AWACS and Satellites. That bird's eye view advantage, along with US political push to finance Iraqi war machine by its satellite Persian Gulf states and consistant security council's resolutions against Iran, put Iran in such disasterous military disadvantage to a point that Iranians could not even purchase RPGs from any countryin spite all their courage in the fronts. The situation slowly changed when Iran started to import some hardware from North Korea but though out the war, the biggest Iranian military supplies for ground forces came from the Iraqis themselves. Iranians would conduct attacks sololy to capture Iraqi hardware intact.

As for Iranians obtaining weapons from the US/Israeli sources, well, that was part of the deal to free hostages since Iraqis attacked Iran in Sept. 22, 1980, that is before the hostages were released in November. Iran requested Hawk SAMs and got them with exhobrant prices. The Americans, not wanting to look bad in the public eye in dealing with hostage takers, agreed to transaction but through Israel. The containers arrived in Israel to be subsequently shipped to Iran. However, the Israelis realized that the containers contained more advanced type of Hawk SAMs than they had in their own inventory, so they switched the new stockpile with their own old missiles and then passed them to Iran. many of these missiles faild in defending Iranian cities. I can tell you a great deal on this but I let you look it up in a good book written by Tom Cooper and Farzad Bishop called "Iran-Iraq War In The Air".

US behavior does not justify Iran violating and flaunting international law by taking hostages.  If Iran was pissed off at the US, the CIVILIZED thing to do would have been to close the embassy and give the US diplomats 48 hours to leave the country. 

Yes, I agree with you but I have to say, Iran in general was a Third World nation at the time in a revolutionary turmoil and w/o a functioning government at the time. If the US as part of the elit nations breaks the very rules of International behaviour in 2001 and 2005, some 21 and 25 years after Iran hostage crisis, it makes no sense to hold Iran responsible to same standards thirty years ago when the US breaks them with impunity now days, does it? 

The US, kidnapped five Iranian diplomates in Kurdish Iraq about two years ago even though the Iraqi government repeatedly notified the US that Iranian consulate was previously arranged with the permission of Iraqi government. Did the US appologize to Iranians? Wouldn't that be a "civilized" thing to do? The five men were just released a couple of months ago!

Iran has fine relations with these 3 stuanch supporters of Saddam Hussein today. Amazing how you fail to mention even one of them.

Which countries are you talking about?

You talk about the generations of Iranians who sufferred since 1953. Well, since 1979, the US has been out of Iran, and Iranian people have been sufferring way more than they did from 1953-1979. MI6 and CIA were gone, kaput, finito. Then what happenned? Did we get the nice democracy you cry about? Who imposed this sufferring on the Iranian people? It was OTHER IRANIANS. How long are you going to blame the US for every betrayal of the Iranian people? Who are the prime backers of the rapists and torturers running Iran today? These thugs make SAVAK look like angels. So is the US responsible for this suffering as well?

Frankly I thought this was a no brainer, but I guess I have to expalin again. I put the origin of Iranian problems in 1953 since that democratic opportunity was rubbed by the US (funny how we wre told even today that the US is for spreading democracy). 

I for one and as oppose to majority of Iranians, do not believe that Democracy is simply an injection and then the next day you become Democrate. Democracy is a long "process" especially for those people who never had it. You only have to look at Iraq and Afghanestan if you do not believe me. If the Shah was not reinstated into the throne in 1953, Iran would probably have a working, though not a complete, democratic system today. The Shah created so much resentement within Iran by its forced Westernization program and massive corruption by his own family that by 1979 the pot was boiling to explosion. Yes, Iran took thocracy but why, that itself is another subject for another place. Since then, Iran's history in the first ten years of revolution is said to be equivalant to most countries 100 year histories. Iran experienced civil war, external war, economic sanctions, International isolation, economic hardship and so on and for so long. Many things changed, people changed, culture changed, ideals changed and definitions changed.

To think that because CIA left Iran (even if you believe that) then the West left Iran alone is shear naivite. The external pressure continued and because of that internal policies were effected. take for example, for ten years after the Iran/Iraq war, the US pushed the oil prices low to $10.00 a barrel in its dual containment policy, does that ring a bell? That vastely slowed Iranian post war recovery. this was particularly important because Iran's population by then was mostely very young and in need of massive investment w/o any return for a good long time. Another point that you forgot is that during those times Iran's sanctions were increased not reduced. So, do you still think that the US "left Iran alone post revolution"? Think again.

If you are going to not forgive the US for its terrible crimes that you have listed, that is fine. But way before them, you should choose to not forgive the Russians, French, Germans, and Chinese. Somehow, I don't see you doing that. I don't see you complaining ONE IOTA about the BILLIONS of dollars a year IRI trades with these criminals who inflicted FAR MORE SUFFERING on Iranian people than the US ever did.

I can only assume you are talking about post Iran/Iraq war. Hoping that is the case, then, I do not understand why i should complain about them? What is so wrong with IRI doing business with the Russians, Chinese ? do you have an inherent hate for them? I assue you do! But does your feelings should have to do with prudent trade and diplomacy?

If it wasn't for Iran's business dealings with china and Russia who would invest in Iranian oil fields? for the record even French invested a lot in Iranian oil and gas and many other industries. We are under banking sanctions by the US among many other sanctions, the Russians and Chinese have been a great conduit for Iran to continue International trade under these circumastances. Of course these nations are after their own interests but do you mean US has not been? What are you saying anyway? Whose side are you on?

Fair is Fair. Are you?

Do you really think you would get a No answer from anyone you ask that question? Do you really?

Shah Ghollam

Apologizing for the sake of being RESPONSIBLE

When you commit an action, you take responsibility for it. That is, if you are an adult.

The US speaks for itself, and the world judges, as you have here. I am talking about what Iran should do. Iran's regime took hostages, violating every international law, and mortally endanering its own people. It should take responsibility. It should AT LEAST apologize to its own people and to the UN and the International Court, even if you think it should not apologize to the US.

US behavior does not justify Iran violating and flaunting international law by taking hostages.  If Iran was pissed off at the US, the CIVILIZED thing to do would have been to close the embassy and give the US diplomats 48 hours to leave the country.  But the IRI had other plans which did not care one bit about Iranian people's well being. 

Furthermore, get your facts straight. 1- US was not the supplier of chemical weapons to Iraq, Germans and others were. 2-The main arms suppliers to Iraq were Russia, France, China, as were the main inflictors of suffering on Iran. It was Russian bombers and missiles that were raining on Iranian cities, not American ones. (In fact, the US and Israel supplied Iran with weapons during some of the most crucial times.)  Somehow, Iran has fine relations with these 3 stuanch supporters of Saddam Hussein today. Amazing how you fail to mention even one of them.

You talk about the generations of Iranians who sufferred since 1953. Well, since 1979, the US has been out of Iran, and Iranian people have been sufferring way more than they did from 1953-1979. MI6 and CIA were gone, kaput, finito. Then what happenned? Did we get the nice democracy you cry about? Who imposed this sufferring on the Iranian people? It was OTHER IRANIANS. How long are you going to blame the US for every betrayal of the Iranian people? Who are the prime backers of the rapists and torturers running Iran today? These thugs make SAVAK look like angels. So is the US responsible for this suffering as well?

If you are going to not forgive the US for its terrible crimes that you have listed, that is fine. But way before them, you should choose to not forgive the Russians, French, Germans, and Chinese. Somehow, I don't see you doing that. I don't see you complaining ONE IOTA about the BILLIONS of dollars a year IRI trades with these criminals who inflicted FAR MORE SUFFERING on Iranian people than the US ever did.

Fair is Fair. Are you?

Fair

Appologizing for the sake of appologizing

American officials have twice acknowledged and apologized for the mistake of 1953.

What did such appologies really stand for? The US obtained three Billion dollars from Libya for the downing of Pan Am aircraft after Libyain appology for the committed act. The United States makes sure to get "tangible" retributions from any country that "appologizes' to the US.

The United states has appologized on two occasions to "Iranians" for acts that have cost Iran and Iranians untold lives and economic loss since 1953. America will also appologize to the Iraqis and Afghanis perhaps in twenty years from now after total destruction of thier respectful countries and unecessary loss of thousands upon thousands of innocent lives.

The US, since those "official" appologies to Iranians, has masterminded economic sanctions against Iran, has confiscated Iranian properties in the US, has yet to return the Iranian money in billions of dollars (38 Billions) held since 1979, has been threatning Iran on numerous occasions which still continiues not to mention even racial profiling and Immigration hardships imposed on Iranians in the US. The acts too many to mention here. 

If the US was really believeing in its own appologies, then the US would free those who committed 9/11 acts after they appologized,  No?

So I am asking, what is in a dry "appology" beyond a media fanfare and political tactics to gain publicity for the US?

Thousands of Iranians were killed by Chemical weapons supplied and supported by the US during the eight years of devastating war when US supported a mad man in every possible way even in the UN in terms of UN resolutions against Iran during the war. Which Iranian can simply ignore the massive distructions, political disasters, loss of lives of which a good portion can be blamed on the US? How many Iranians really go for this "lip service" as an appology?

It is all "cute' and "dandy" to pretend "sophistication" in what Iranians should do in this case, but realistically how can you forget such a massive negative implications of US meddling in internal Iranian affairs lasting over sixty years? 

How many jews you do know that have forgiven Germans after sixty years? How many Brits, French, Americans you know that have forgiven Hitler? How many Israelis you know that in spite of massive killings of Palestinians and occupation of their lands have forgiven them for a few desperate acts of violence out of desperation?

In all, such "appologies" will amount to "nothing" but publicity stunts for generations of Iranians who suffered since 1953. In that Iranians are no different than Americans, Israelis or the Europeans.

The US is far more capable to accompany its appologies by reciprocating tangible offerings to back up its deep regrets much like what it expects from others, anything else is indeed seen as "hot air" by Iranians!

No justification

There is no context that would excuse the brutal and stupid criminal act of hostage takers. I don't care if they are 90 years old when this regime falls. All of them should be tried and punished to the fullest extent of the law for that act. I was a student too but I had enough integrity and brains to understand that hostage taking is wrong. These jerks who claimed to speak for Iran did not? They brought shame to the whole Iranian people. They also cost Iran some 9 billions dollars in frozen assets. All these from Ebtekar to Abdi put together are not worth one cent.

The really shameful thing is that UN awards Ebtekar the  "Champion of Earth" award. What  a joke. Shame on hostage takers and shame on UN. No wonder they lack most credibilty and humanity.

Russia?

What about Russia? Did they ever appologized? No! what are they doing today? how are they messured today? their bloody hands are in the khamenei's pocket. God only knows how much they charged us for the latest gadget to distort satelite programs while hurting Iranians with Giga hertz of microwave. They care or less for Iranain people. They only see $$$. 

Thank You

Everybody, and especially thank you Yolanda and Ali9Akbar for your kind comments.

20 years ago today, the impossible happened- the Berlin Wall came down, and a divided people became reunited.

We Iranians are next. We will tear down the wall that Khomeini put up in 1979, and our people will no longer be prisoners in our own country, and we will no longer be prevented from showing our beautiful face to the world.

Get Ready.

.

.

excellent article....

you speak with common sense and have articulated the thoughts of many Iranians....

Let us hope that certain individuals are LISTENING and not drag Iran into a dark abyss that Iran is headed if they do not make a 180° turn from it's present course....

.....

Thank you, Fair, for this great article! I enjoy reading your posts and articles! I witnessed Iranians being ridiculed...not because they did anything wrong, just because they are Iranians...their names being laughed at and stigmatized....they were called "donkey riders" & "evil" by other Americans.....it was systematic & institutionalized abuse.......it was very painful for me to watch.....hopefully things will improve..

thanks,

P.S. The Iranian commemorative stamp is a sad reminder....

Contextualization

The following contextualization of the hostage taking is prevalent among some of the “reformist” Islamists who still do not comprehend the pivotal role and magnitude of devastation imposed on Iran and Iranians by that Islamist criminal act. In a recent T.V. interview one of the hostage takers, Abbas Abdi, used a similar line to this one.

“Yes, storming the embassy, WHEN LOOKED AT WITH THE PRESENT HINDSIGHT, was wrong (although it must be looked at in the context of its time, and although the intention of the student leaders was not to drag that on.”