LANGUAGE

More sentimentalist opinion

I Pointed Out This Issue Since Years Ago But...

19 November 2005 -- Persian
(Iranian) people in the English-speaking countries are the only
community who use two different terms to refer to their language,
“Farsi” and “Persian.” This behavior has caused some confusion among the
Westerners as to the appropriateness of these terms.

“Farsi”
(an Arabic adaptation of the word “Parsi”), is the indigenous name of
the Persian language. Just as the German speaking people refer to their
language as ‘Deutsch’, the Greek ‘Ellinika’ and the Spanish ‘Espanol’,
the Persians use ‘Farsi’ or ‘Parsi’ to identify their native form of
verbal communication.

In English, however, this language has
always been known as “Persian” (‘Persane’ in French and ‘Persisch’ in
German’). But many Persians migrating to the West (particularly to the
USA) after the 1979 revolution continued to use ‘Farsi’ to identify
their language in English and the word became commonplace in
English-speaking countries.

In the West when one speaks of
‘Persian Language’, people can immediately connect it with several
famous aspects of that culture and history such as Persian Gulf, Persian
Carpet, Persian food, Persian poetry, Persian cat, etc. But “Farsi” is
void of such link which is only obvious for people in Persia (Iran) and a
few other nations in the Middle East.

The Academy of the Persian
Language and Literature (Farhangestan) in Tehran has also delivered a
pronouncement on this matter and rejected any usage of the word “Farsi”
instead of Persian/Persa/Persane/Persisch in the Western languages. The
first paragraph of the pronouncement states: “PERSIAN has been used in a
variety of publications including cultural, scientific and diplomatic
documents for centuries and, therefore, it connotes a very significant
historical and cultural meaning. Hence, changing ‘Persian’ to ‘Farsi’ is
to negate this established important precedence. Changing ‘Persian’ to
‘Farsi’ may give the impression that it is a new language, and this may
well be the intention of some Farsi users…”

Fortunately all
International broadcasting radios with Persian language service (e.g.
VOA, BBC, DW, RFE/RL, etc.) use “Persian Service”, in lieu of the
incorrect “Farsi Service.” That is also the case for the American
Association of Teachers of Persian, The Centre for Promotion of Persian
Language and Literature, and several American and European notable
universities.

Some mistakably believe that, in English, the
official language of Iran should be called “Farsi,” while the language
spoken in Tajikistan or Afghanistan should be labeled as “Dari,” and
“Persian” should be utilized to refer to all of them! However, the
difference between the Persian spoken in Iran, Afghanistan, or
Tajikistan is not significant and substantial enough to warrant such a
distinction and classification. Consider the following case. An
Egyptian and a Qatari engage in a conversation in Arabic. They will
encounter a great deal of difficulties in comprehending each other.
Despite this fact, however, the language used in their conversation is
referred to as “Arabic.” No one will even attempt to classify their
respective dialects separately and refer to them as “Qatari” and
“Egyptian”! On the other hand, Persians, Tajiks or Afghans can converse
in Persian and easily understand each other. Then, why should their
dialects be classified separately and referred to by different names?

In
English, usage of “Farsi” in place of “Persian,” that has been common
since 1980s, is as inaccurate and odd as using “Farsi Gulf” instead of
“Persian Gulf.”

Source: //heritage.chn.ir/en/Article/?id=88

Hindi and Malay

Dear Literary Critic, 

Please, please, I beseech you from the bottom of my qalb, can you please make sure to spell my name Amrikai and not Amrikaee? I don't want to set a precedent for using the incorrect term.  Thank you.

Ahem.

Does English have other words for Hindi--words/terms already in existence--and Malay and Afrikaans?

We already had Persian in English.

Sincerely,

ZA

All pomp and no cirumstance

Dear Persian lovers

Please use Persian for as often as you desire and for as many things as you wish. From cats to carpets and language to literature, prefix them with Persian and enjoy the romance that comes with it. BUT please do not try to reason or justify your usage by citing historic, geographic, and linguistic examples and analogies because for evey example and analogy that you bring to the table there exists a counter example that suggests the complete opposite.

This trend was revived by Ehsan Yarshater, for whom I have utmost respect but his reasoning is largely based on linking Iran and the language spoken by its inhabitants to a glorious past that exists no more. I appreciate that under the current political regime and its international image we need to remind our audiences of our one time civilised past but precisely for this reason I believe that we should not tarnish our glorious past by even tacitly linking it with our less than glorious present.

Zan Amrikaee and Iroonman, 

Your examples of using englisi as opposed to English when speaking Farsi (Zan Amrikaee) and Spanish as opposed to espanol (Iroonman) are only half-truth and do not give the full picture.  In English when we refer to the languages spoken in India, South Africa and Malaysia (to name but a few) we say, Hindi, Afrikaans and Malay, repectively, which are the same words as used in their own respective language.  

Therefore, this rule isn't a general rule and as I said before, there are no rules or dos and donts in this regard.

Iroonman politicises the issue and refers to the change of the country's name from Persia to Iran. Obviously you don't see the flaw in your argument that the name was always Iran among Farsi speakers and the change was necessitated by the fact that modern day Iran is no longer Persia in the same way that modern Germany is no longer Prussia. And on a closer period to us, we now refer (in English) to Bombay as Mumbai and to Peking as Beijing - one country is a democracy and the other is a dictatorship.

Once again all the arguments presented here lack the circumstance but  are full of pomp.

In English call it Persian

The original name of the area that the Greeks named us as Persis was Parsa. Parsa was the first area of this region ever to be controlled by a king in an organized kingdom-style fashion.

So technically speaking, to be absolutely accurate you can argue that we are descendant from Pars-ians (as opposed to the Greek term Persis or Pers-ians).

However, since the world has it as Persia and Persian, and since we do not have the gumption or national will to go around and change the established spelling from Pers-ia to Pars-ia, and since we can accept the world's positive impression of Persia, we accept Persia as the common acceptable term defining the people whose origin hails from this region and the empire and civilization it created.

Since we are speaking English, and since the association with Persia is positively connotated, why not allow the term for the language (modern day Farsi) as expressed in English, to be known as the Persian language?

It takes nothing away from Farsi, and we must still refer to it as Farsi when speaking in Persian.

Precedence for this in the English language is plenty, German/Deutsch, Greek/Hellenos, French/Francais, Spanish/Espanol, Arabic/Arabiya etc. etc. etc.

Part of what makes this difficult to digest, is our whole avoidance of coming to grips with Iran vs Persia.

I choose to discount the value and tradition of the word Iran in English, because the name change from Persia to Iran was conducted by an unelected (yet popular)  tyrant and dictator. This is not a democratic choice of a people, and so in English, I can very easily take the extra 2 seconds and tell people that I am from "Iran which used to be known as Persia". I merely take the time and add the explanation to my words to help educate the non-folks and explain and clarify Iran/Persia. Because someone has to!

When speaking in Persian to my fellow countrymen, I can easily refer to it as Iran because there is no word for Persian in Farsi, Farsi is the obvious name of our language when we speak it, and most importantly there is a certain pre-supposed ancient pride in the word Iran, even more so than how impressive and historically poignant Persia sounds in English.

Thanks to Ferdowsi for bestowing so much honor on (the word) Iran.

Hmmm...ingelisi harf mizanam ya English harf mizanam...

On the one hand, as a linguist, I know that it is entirely normal for whatever is common use (but historically not the correct word) to eventually weave its way into the dictionary as customary, not just common.  Even pronunciations change over time because of this. For example, often never had "of-ten" as an option until people started pronouncing the T.  When I was a child it was incorrect to ever pronounce the L in palm, calm, almond; now, you would be hard pressed to find someone who did not sound the L.)

On the other hand, I, personally, do not like what happened with Persian/Farsi.  Obama (not THE Obama, just i dot com's mustachioed guy)made the point clearly when he put it in terms of speaking Spanish or espanol.  Farsi is obviously the word (albeit bastardized--p became f because of the Arab influx) that Iranians call their language in their own language.  Just as English is the word that Americans call their language in their own language.  But when I speak Persian, I don't say, "English harf mizanam" so why did it happen that so many ended up saying, "I speak Farsi"?  

Ah, well, here's my suggestion: I say blame the media.  I don't think it had as much to do with people spreading it as news media spreading it during those late 1970s days of national upheaval and the taking of hostages and the creation of Nightline. (Remember watching that every single night?)  It may have occurred that Iranians were asked what language they spoke, and not knowing that English had the word, "Persian, they may have just said, "Farsi."  

Anybody interested in an anthropological linguistic study to find the real culprit? At least then we could string that lousy SOB up by his thumbs and give him his due punishment.  HA!  ;^)   (Yes, that was supposed to be a joke.)

But still...I am using Persian.  When I speak English.

We could have fun with this one, couldn't we? 

Obama joon!

Please write in Persian honey (if you know how to). Your English is not up to the mark!  

All posts here against PERSIAN are non-sense! Only personal

attacks against the writers and posters, starting with Rusta (daahaat) which is a very venemous person! So much for the logical and "educated" people! One even compares it with Persia and Iran. Instead of debating the language, it has become a political bashing of Mossaddagh by a daahaati Rusta and her shallow associates!

"Use Persia instead of Iran..." one says! What is the relationship here? Then, say I speak Irani, not farsi! This is the ultimate illiteracy! What was your major at school? 

Just go ahead and speak your native language and don't try to be an expert in English, unless you want to give a fatva!

Not worthy of arguing with you guys! It is a one way conversation with likes pf Rusta, which her name (dahaat) explains it all! 

Also, please don't say "eggplant"

(Wasn't sure if this was a general blog about English language pet peeves, or just about "Farsi." If the latter, my apologies for crashing.)

This Critic,begs to differ

Dear Dr Vajdi and Messrs. Matin-Daftari and Khonji,

Let me make it simple. There are absolutely no rules or scientific bases on naming or referring to a language spoken in one country by the inhabitants of another country who speak a different language. For every argument presented as a rule in this article there exists a counter-argument that nullifies the rule.

Your Deutsch-German analogy is inconsistent because if you go by this analogy, you should equally insist on using Persia instead of Iran (as Germany is used instead of Deutschland). But if we use Persia instead of Iran, then in the words of the great Iranian-British stand up comedian, Omid Djalili, we should use Babylonia for modern day Iraq, Assyria, for modern day Syria and Pheonicia instead of modern day Lebanon!

Also your reference to Persian Gulf is not without precedence. The country of Greece, whose inhabitants speek Greek have a body a water between Greece and Italy which in English is referred to as the Ionian Sea and no conflict arises there (not to forget the case of the Hellenic Islands).

Your objections to "the Farsi section of the Persian service of the BBC" and also to "the Farsi speaking students of the Persian examinations" are baseless as very accurately both the BBC and the UK examination authority have identified "Persian" as the mother language which consists of three major dialects: Farsi, Dari and Tajiki. Now if you re-read your own examples, they make perfect sense!

The fact of the matter is that your insisting on replacing Farsi by Persian is purely out of emotive and romantic reasons. Otherwise, there is no case to answer.

With respect,

LC

Thanks Benross jaan

Sorry it was my misunderstanding. You are absolutely right about these Nouveau Patriots! I know of former Tudehis who quote from Shah-Nameh to emphasize their patriotism!!

 I am also glad to see that you have retained your sense of humor :) 

FR

Dear Farah

You misunderstood me but that's okay, this clarification was needed. My "Pahlavi basing" referred to so called Mossadeghists who made a business out of it for 30 years... along many others! Now, to prove their 'nationalism' they can't find other 'cause' than this to fight for!

Benross jaan where is your sense of humor?

Did I bash Pahlavis? If you read my comment one more time you'll get it. To me, a chest-beating Mossadeghollahi i.e. a grandson of Mossadegh, Ali Matin-Daftari, joining the former employees of the BBC Persian service, the very service that was funded by the government that, allegedly, brought down his glorious (!) grandfather, is as bizaare as if a gandson of Reza Shah becomes chummy with another husband and wife duo (Mousavi and wife) who cheered the fall of his father! Fortunately the latter has not happened yet and I can't imagine if it ever wil.

Changiz Khaan Jaan

Thank you and you are so kind. I agree with your alluding to shazdeh matbakhi in reference to Mossadegh's grandson :)

FR

روشنفکرانِ کیلوئی

روشنفکرانِ کیلوئی،دَلاکانِ رختشورْ مآبْ،خلقِ ایرانی به چه روزی اُفتاده است اَز تدبیرِ این مَعرکه گیرانِ بد کِردار.

Farah

I guess Pahlavi bashing doesn't run the business anymore!

Cool down. This is harmless! 

قربان کلام متین فرح روستا

چقدر ما ملت باید درمانده باشیم که این شازده مطبخیِ هم از توبره هم
از آخور بخور، از طریق نجیب خونه بی‌ بی‌ سی‌، برایمان دستورالعمل صادر
کند.

If my body dies, let my body die, but do not let my country die.

Only those who came after 79 started this ignorant trend!

After revolution people were mostly refugees unlike the majority of us were students, they struggled with the English language. They wish they could teach the westerners Persian so they didn't have to struggle learning English!

First they tried to say PER SHIAN, but americans wouldn't get it. Then, they started telling'em it is farsi. To me it is the ultimate level of illiteracy of those who use it. I am sure some are anti-Persian, since their native language was not Persian, therfore feeling jealous of the beautiful sound of PERSIAN, and they wanted revenge (This is very small minority).

To prove my point of ultimate ignorance, just read the comment below from someone from a rusta (daahaat)! She even has the nerve of attacking the writers calling him the grandson of MM (Is that a liability now? Who are you?)! I wouldn't mind, if she was SHAHRI, but rustaii!! She is the type who propagates this farsi campaign.

For many years now, anytime non-persian speakers asks me if i speak farsi (i know s/he has run into one of those ignorants); I'd say no! when asked, aren't i from iran; i'd say, yes, and i speak PERSIAN! Then, s/he asked why don't I say farsi, I'd say: "Am I speaking to you in Persian?" 

The other time a spanish speaking person did that to me. I responded:"Am I speaking to you in spanish, or ESPANOL?" Then, he got it and realized how stupid his comment was!

The people who propagate the use of this term, either knowingly or out of pure ignorance, are trying to destroy our history and heritage in the world! If you love Iran, and proud of your heritage, you use PERSIAN!

Treasonous triangle

When a British-educated grandson of Mossadegh (Matin-Daftari) joins forces with the husband-and-wife team of former BBC employees (Khonji-Vajdi) to save Persian from becoming Farsi, there must be something, somewhere wrong..

What is to expect next? A grandson of Reza Shah to join forces with Mousavi-Rahnavard to save Arabic/Farsi script being changed to Latin?!!

Comrade

I suppose you would like to replace Persian with Russian? 

Btw, is there still a Tudeh party in existence following the collapse of your masters in the Soviet Union?

Comfortable refugees in Farsi, and Perzhen

 The main issue at hand goes way over, and above whether you(or, in your case "they") call our language Persian, Farsi, or Afrikana.

While our national existence is in serious jeopardy, because of the mismanagement of a bunch of akhunds. When the rate of unemployment is steadily increasing because in Islam  Economics is for donkeys, and the judicial system is corrupt, and barbaric,these people are worried about the usage of a fabricated word. How Persian indeed.

visit....//www.tudehpartyiran.org/mardom.asp

Call it "Persian"

No one says "Kurdi" when referring to the Kurdish langauge or "Arabi" for Arabic, so why should people use "Farsi" for Persian?

The only objection to "Persian" is that it is associated with Iranianness.

There are many Iranians who are not "Persians" (Gilaks, Kurds, Lors etc) and many Persian speakers (Tajiks) who are not Iranians.