Anahid Hojjati

Azadeh

Well written and informative response.  :-)

Azadeh jan:   well-done.

Azadeh jan:
 

well-done. Please do write more on this topic.

Both Iranian men and women are betraying Iranian women & kids.

Frankly supporting IRI with it's history and not supporting regime change is a betrayal of both Iranian women and children.  Plenty of women and men still back these thugs in Iran. 10% of population is still a large number.

Princess syndrome :-)

What an interesting expression, Sheila. It applies to many upper and middle-class Iranian women :-). Although so many women of these same social classes are fighting for their own rights and those of other women as we speak (many are in Evin prison for that.)  And your friend is absolutely right. Women are neither children, nor bed-ridden or dying adults to be taken care of. Plus, no one can love you more than you can love yourself!

Cheers,

Azadeh

Dear VPK, COP, G. Rahmanian and Azadeh Azad, thanks.

Dear Veiled Prophet of Khorasan, Cost-Of-Progress, G. Rahmanian, and  Azadeh Azad aziz, thanks for your comments. Azadeh jan has dicussed many important points in her comment. The fact is that even though my short blog might be weak in its arguments, I for one can not wait to have perfect arguments in order to start discussions on important issues. That is why it is good to have a discussion started and then friends can come and add to it just like Azadeh has done. I also like what Rahmanian mentioned which I believe I noted in one of my comments too. Rahmanian wrote:"In a democracy it is the rule of law that protects our rights as
citizens and not the kind hearts of the citizens or the levels of their
understanding of each other's rights." But then, Dear Rahmanian, first we have to get to that democracy.

Azadeh jan, you have not offended me but as far as how much it advances our knowledge when it contains so much contradiction, I believe it does some. We can't wait for perfect conditions to take actions. If every one waited to know more before they took action, there would hardly be much advances in the world. Everyone does what they can and the next one builds on that. That is how society progresses. Again, thanks everyone for your comments.

Azadeh, very well said!

I really liked reading your response. It was very educational. The bottom line is that Iranian women need to do themselves a favor and start fighting for their own right.

A female friend, who was much older than me at the time, once told me that you will never find a man to take care of you. It's for you to take care of yourself.

I often wonder if some of us, Iranian women, suffer from princess syndrome??  

Anahid, you forgot the patriarchy

Dear Anahid,

You say:

‘’ We all know that in IRI, women are second class citizens. Yet, this regime has been in power for more than 30 years. Can we say that Iranian men are collectively betraying the women by not working more actively against IRI so the regime falls? ‘’

The underlying premise of such a question is the idea that men and women in the Iranian society are not in a domination-subordination relationships within the patriarchal system that has ruled over Iran not only for the last 30 years, but also for the last 3000 years, using different institutions, laws and  traditions.

 The reason for your false premise is that you do not see the male-female relationships within this system that has created (or has accepted the imposition of) father-dominated / male-dominated religions, especially Islam, as well as male-dominated language, literature, traditions, beliefs and customs that maintain this system. Once you bring the male-female relationships out of its historically patriarchal framework, you do not see these relationships as relations of domination-subordination, but rather as accidental, chosen by individual men and women, and without any inherent antagonism. That’s why you use the word ‘’betrayal’’ as if men and women belong to the same gender category (I know you are thinking of the Iranian men and women as the people versus the IRI, but when it comes to the specific rights of one of the genders, this coallition either falls or maintains itself only strategically.)

As members of a dominant gender, men have no duty or obligation or interest to come to women’s rescue. What you do not seem to see is that Iranian men’s present solidarity with women is often, not always, opportunistic. Many Iranian men support women’s rights as weapons against the IRI. Hypothetically speaking, if Iran becomes democratic in a year, we women, our daughters and grand-daughters have to face the limitations that these same men will put on our rights and those of our grand-daughters in the name of Morality, Decency, Traditions, National security, etc, etc.

There is also an inconsistency in your argument: by the one hand, you assert that men are benefitting from the misogynistic Islamic laws and by the other, you expect them to come to women’s rescue. This inconsistency as well as your false premise stated above come from your not being theorised about the nature of patriarchy.

I promise to begin writing about the nature of patriarchy in a few months :-). But let me tell you this for now:  Although most men are oppressed under the Islamic Republic of Iran, although not all men have created Islam or the Islamic Republic,  all men do benefit from the misogynistic parts of the Islamic laws.  Expecting them to come to the women’s rescue is like expecting capitalists to come to the rescue of the working class (although we know of a few capitalists who have given the workers the entire functioning of their enterprises, as we also know of a few men who have written for the women’s rights or have passed laws to abolish discriminations against women.)  The patriarchal system has created a misogynistic culture that is deeply rooted in men’s and women’s psyches, and thus determines their social behaviours vis-à-vis each other, often even without their knowledge. Furthermore, the Islamic Dictatorship of Iran has roots in our patriarchal system and is not a historical anomaly.

Finally, do you remember once I told you it is difficult to have a systematic debate on any issue on this site because most of the commenters are engineers? :-) I took my statement back because I did not have time to pursue it. But, this blog is a good example of writing two socio-political paragraphs without following any methodology or theory. It remains the expression of your opinion mixed with an enquiry, to which you have the right. But how much does it advance our knowledge of ourselves and our society of origin when it contains so much contradiction? (I hope I haven't offended you in anyway.)

Cheers,

Azadeh

Afghan Star

Yes, the issue of women rights and equality is not unique to backward societies and "traditions". BUT, for us and similar opressed and regressive societies, religion becomes the No. 1 reason and the perpetrator of this unfair treatment.

Right now I am watching a 2009 documentary on HBO called "Afghan Star". This is an American Idol knock off, Afghan version! One of the contestants, a woman named Setara from Herat, danced on the stage for a few seconds and let her head scarf slip a bit! The whole country was up in arms about it after the broadcast. This is as if afghanistan has all of a sudden resolved all the problems that has plagued it for all this time except that of Setara's dancing and singing. One of the people interviewed, a gel-haired young man went as far as saying she should be killed. Her landlord also asked her to vacate her apartment afterward. Holy crap.

This is but one example of how this religion rules by force and unjust "laws". They want to rule every aspect of every person's life and that, in this day and age, just does not work too well with some young people of the society. It is 21st freaking century after all. 

To this woman's credit, she says she is in it til the end. I am still watching it, I hope she doesn't end up with a severed head in a ditch.

I do agree that Iranian men can and should do more to liberate their mothers, sisters and daughters. The question is if and when religion allows them to take the centuries-old blinders off.

Thanks for this thought provoking blog.

____________

IRAN FIRST

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Shotor Khan

I expect Islam to become extinct. They can take vajeb and mostahab along with them. 

Islam is nothing but Arab imperialism and savagery. 

The reason hijab was so popular in Islam was that Momammad could not keep his hand off  other people's wives or daughters. No wonder they wanted to cover any female in sight.

Long live Judea and Samaria :-)

VPK

Raoul

Human rights are NOT a Western concept. They are a UNIVERSAL ideal. The fact that Islam does not recognize them speaks more about Islam. Not about culture. We had human rights in Iran since the days of Cyrus the Great. So it is not just Western.

We need to stop givin Islam a way out. Let us face it: Islam is the issue not culture. I am from Iranian culture. I respect my daughter more than I respect many adults. We had female Military Commanders over 2000 years ago. The disrespect is in Islam not Iran.

Hejab: vajeb ya mostahab?

I expect the Islamic dress code eventually to become "recommended" rather than "mandatory" except in mosques, courts and some public buildings. Ayatollah Sanaei has issued a fatwa to this effect.

Already women can bare nearly all in special open-air sports complexes built just for them. There are also certain parks in Tehran and other cities where the Baseej and morality patrol don't go.

You should realize that the government won't do anything that upsets its religious base: these people think that things are already too liberal and decadent and that the chastity of young women is sacrosanct.

Dear Ms. Hojjati:

I think we are talking about two different issues, now! Examples of men mistreating their spouses or vice versa can be found everywhere, even among people enjoying the most democtratic laws in the economically advanced world. However, in your blog, you have put the blame squarely on men and men alone. That, I have to disagree with because, although in Iran thanks to the backward policies of the ruling theocracy, women are treated unfairly and as second-class citizens, men are not to blame for the existence of the laws or perpetuation of the status quo. Two years ago, after the fraudulent presidential elections, we saw young and old Iranian women and men taking to the streets of major cities wanting change. That is, change for all Iranians even the misguided pro-regime bunch whose short-term self-interests constrain their mental capacity to think what is best for Iran as a country. In the midst of currently pervasive reactionary socio-political conditions, it would not only be unfair, but also objectively erroneous to blame men for the existing oppressive laws. Basing your whole argument on your friends' anecdotal accounts of the abysmally inhuman treatment of women by men only amounts to missing the larger and more significant issues at hand and being unmindful of the fact that Iran is not a democracy. And in Iran of today, men are also equally victimized. As such, under the rule of the undemocratic and backward regime men are not to blame for the impediment of women's quest for liberation or progress. They are not liberated, either. As I have said earlier, even in the most advanced economies cases of domestic violence are not few and far between. Whereas in a democracy such cases may be of social and cultural nature, under IR cases of domestic violence and gender discrimination commonly known as gender apartheid adopt a more political characteristic. I am not denying certain social and cultural factors that contribute to the hardships women in Iran experience on a daily basis, but those factors are not by themselves the most essential causes of the status quo. Whereas in the US the dominant culture is disdainful of domestic violence and the existing laws are to a great extent geared toward protecting women's rights, cases of domestic violence are rampant. However, in the more male-dominated societies such as Korea and Japan gender discrimination takes a more cultural/traditional form. In a few specific cases in Japan and Korea,  men enjoy more legal rights than women. Of course, women in these countries seem to give very little thought to such issues and have, apparently, resigned to their "lesser" roles simply because they enjoy a vast range of other democratic freedoms.. Again, your line of reasoning presupposes a reductionist approach to Iranian people's genuine quest for democracy and democratic freedoms. In a democracy it is the rule of law that protects our rights as citizens and not the kind hearts of the citizens or the levels of their understanding of each other's rights. American theologian Reinhold Niebuhr has said: "Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but Man's inclination for injustice makes democracy necessary." It is in the absence of democracy which the regime of IR has reduced the status of women to second-class citizens and not the intentions of their male counterparts.

Anahid jan: Thanks. I think

Anahid jan: Thanks. I think Racism informs Raoul's preconceived notions and lumping of all things middle east as big bad msulim...

His condescention and bigotry are beyond reprehensible.

thanks yolanda for the quotes

Interesting quotes. No wonder we have polygomy in places like Utah.

Thanks Vildemose for answering Raoul, he is just too out there

Vildemose, you are a patient and helpful person. Honestly,when someone like Raoul has such backwards idea or lies, I just don't want to waste my time on them.  To deny that women were forced to wear hijab, that really shows bad intentions. Then Raoul at the end of his comment writes:"I think this should do, and if you need more exchange to clear up your thoughts just send a message as I will not respond to this thread any longer", as if I need to clear up my thoughts, it is Raoul who needs to do that. Thanks again vildemose.

however decades later

however decades later Iranian women embraced their own cultural norm of wearing hijab. 

Raoul: Are you joking??? They did not embrace it. They were lied to by Khomeini after a mass protest against Hejab. He retracted his edict and the next day he said, "hejab is not compulsory or mandatory"..He lied. He fooled an entire nation, men and women.

I have posted the video clip here on this thread. They had to wear hejab at a gun point with Hejab or moral agents patroling all the streets to put those with make up and without hejab in jail.

Are you willingly ignorant/ill-informed after spending so many hours on this site???

Anahid

I have written short responses to similar matters.  You are looking at cultural issues that cannot be rectified via government change or even through leadership fiat.

Based on my readings the [late] father of [now deceased] Iranian king outlawed hijab in the thirties, however decades later Iranian women embraced their own cultural norm of wearing hijab.  One can write more but I don't have the time.

In every society there are individuals or groups who want a different system.  I am certain that there are Iranians, and I don't mean folks who label themselves as 'Iranian,' but those who hold only Iranian citizenship and reside in Iran, who are [to varying degrees] Westernized and want the Iranian society to abandon its Shia-islamic values and embrace ours. 
Those that are realists [and consequently pragmatists] easily discern that these people need to grow from within, and by that I mean 'intellectual' growth at the individual and family levels.  Here is a current example of what happens when folks decide to follow their islamic values, cultural norms, etc.:
Currently there is a trial in Arizona over a muslim father who ran over his daughter, killing her and injuring her boyfriend’s mother who was walking with her.  Although he has lived among us, he is still connected to his outdated and savage cultural norms of honor killing.  We cannot force these backward people, including Iranians, to just change because you and a few others just want it so.

Islam does NOT recognize a set of Western values labeled as 'human rights,' but many people can't digest that fact and keep arguing over such. 

Islam does NOT grant equal protection under its laws to non-muslims, or to muslim women.  Islamic societies just are that, Islamic…

I think this should do, and if you need more exchange to clear up your thoughts just send a message as I will not respond to this thread any longer.

.......

//bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-3.htm

Bible 1st Corinthians chapter 11 verse 3:

*******************

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

*******************

.......so man is the head of the woman according to Bible......It is not easy to have an equality..........

I have not seen a woman president in US yet!

To Sheila and all who write it is responsibility of women

To Sheila and all who write it is responsibility of women, you must not believe in the concept expressed in the following famous Persian poem:

Sorry for bad formatting of the poem.  Sheila, if I am naive, then you and those advocating that bulk of responsibility falls on women are all cruel.

looking for few good men?

Anahid jan,

Your comment is a bit naive. You talk as if men are supposed to get on their white horses and sweep women off the IRI injustice and take them to their white castle...This is the responsibility of women to take care of themselves and there are too many complex variables in play (cultural, religious, lack of self esteem, lack of financial opportunities, lack of knowledge and understanding...) that it will take decades before Iranian women wake up and fight for their rights.

Iranian women are not alone with religious or cultural imposed injustice. look at Egypt for instance, they are still circumcising women. 

thanks yolanda for your comment and all the info

 I hate that sentence about legal responsibility too. Thanks for your comment, particularly, where you noted:"IRI is getting more brutal......IRI started to execute people without notifying the relatives....why?...... IRI does not want the victim's relatives to protest to the media.....IRI does not want Sakineh type of world-wide protests again......."

Dear vildemose, I see your point but at least

At least when IRI is removed and we have a better government, laws will be more fair. No one is expecting attitudes to change in a matter of months. In western countries, not everyone believes in women equality. Take the case of Christian fundamentalists in United States, but at least they are not in charge of government.

Anahid jan: Unfortunately,

Anahid jan: Unfortunately, the Iranian society is a mysogynistic society, which will not change by removing the IRI. Though I am not trying to minimize legislative power  to the problem might eventually lead to social evolution as it has in many other countries and other areas.

.......

Hi! Anahid,

    IRI deprives women of rights and then turns around saying that women are exempt from responsibilities....IRI tries to make women feel that they are doing women a big "favor".....OMG!.....What IRI is saying that a woman should stay home, be a cook, dish-washer, diaper-changer, tea-maker, baby-sitter, food-server, house-keeper, laundry doer.....women don't need to participate in politics and decision-making concerning their own well-beings.....

This line really bothers me:

"Many of the legal responsibilities rest on the shoulders of men"

Look what happened to Nasrin Sotoudeh........a "man" judge sentenced her 5 years in prison for not wearing hejab.......

******************************

I agree with G. Rahmanian that "Iranian men are victims of a brutal theocracy in the same manner as women are."

So far 99 people got executed this month alone......it seems to me all of them are guys.......another thing is that most of the I/I war casualties are guys...half million? 3 quaters of a million?......both men's and women's lives are cheapened over there!

IRI is getting more brutal......IRI started to execute people without notifying the relatives....why?...... IRI does not want the victim's relatives to protest to the media.....IRI does not want Sakineh type of world-wide protests again.......

Thanks hamsade,Shutruck,VPK, LoverofLiberty,MM for comments

thanks everyone for commenting. Particularly, thanks to MM for providing valuable links and names of women activists. MM jan, as brave and active that women have been, Iranian men in Iran should not just rest and let the women do most of the work of getting rid of criminal IRI. They need to become more active.

Hi Anahid, Some predict

Hi Anahid,

Some predict that the Iranian women will be the ones to undo the damage done by IRI to Iran and I know that Aynak predicted that a woman will be the first prime minister of Iran.  I also have to disagree with the notion that Iranian women are weak and they need the protection of men to be somebody.  On the contrary, it may actually take the women's touch to be able to bring back the badly needed civil rights.  The following is what I wrote in a different blog on the subjucation of women in Iran:

//iranian.com/main/blog/pejman7/21-years-after-hayedeh-non-persian-reactions

------------------------

by MM on Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:18 AM PST

In appearance, the women of Iran are behind the veil and placed in an inferior position, comparatively.  However, at the height of the oppression of the IRI, female leaders and a host of their warriors were busy on the streets of Iran collecting "One Million Signatures" to fight for their civil rights. 

The leaders of the women's movement have a long list, and their foot soldiers are numerous.  Here are some who need to be mentioned with their perseverance and bravery in the face of intimidation, torture and jail; They include brave women (some in jail now) like Delaram Ali, Fariba Davoodi Mohajer, Noushin Ahmadi Khorasani, Parvin Ardalan, Shahla Entesari, Sussan Tahmasebi, Azadeh Forghani and Bahareh Hedayat.

This movement is politically strong.  Just listen to Bahareh Hedayat while she was under IRI investigation for being anti-government (//www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtUvxtH00Lc).  This women's movement resembles hot coals under ashes and only needs a breather wind to come out, and as Aynak predicted, to produce the first Prime Minister of Iran ( Iranian Women Gain Momentum & Become the Regime’s Biggest Threat).

ha ha shuturk.  you're a

ha ha shuturk.  you're a funny man.  you're just yanking everyone's chain so that they waste their energy on you.  well-played sir, well-played. :D

Anahid the feminist extremist

I don't care what you label me as. *Absolute* gender equality is nonsense because men and women have different social and biological roles. Women deserve different rights in some areas, men in others.
Where you de-emphasize the responsibility of a woman to her family and society, and only talk about her individual rights and liberties, you run the risk of destroying the very fabric that holds humans civilization together.
The FACT is that, without constant immigration (ironically from the Muslim world), Germany would be in steep population decline. Why? Because the government says it is OK for women to not bother about raising children and tries to minimize any problems associated with divorce. Unfortunately, divorce rates in Iran are little better than in the West. This is because of the influence of western culture.
This will only lead to the eventual decline of the German nation. People like you want to recommend the same recipe for disaster in Iran.

Let us

Not turn this into men vs. women. It is Iranian people. We are nothing without women. We are nothing without men. I would included ALL people including the in-between trans-genders.

My children matter as much no matter their gender. In many nations men and women are at odds. Let us not turn Iran into one of them. I respect my daughter's opinion as much as any man. It is you not your genitals that make you what you are.

You bet

You bet! But it was not just Iranian men who brought this hell. My own Aunt a "feminist" marched for Khomeini. In 1979 she "proudly" declared she would wear hijab if "Agha" commanded so. 

It is the morons {yes including my aunt} both men and women who betrayed Iran. Not just men.