Behrooz Parhami

Re: Mr. Jewish BP

Now, this is an inappropriate response. Why bring Jewishness into it? Besides the regime in Iran will love to see Cyrus trashed.

No more jabs at Jewish people please.

Mr. Jewish BP

How dare you question the contents of the cylinder?  After all, as a Jew, you should be aware that your people were saved under Cyrus's rule?  I ask you to take back what you said, otherwise, the regime in Iran may hold that against you or your people.

Thanks Vishtaspa/VPK - Darius, we took BP's blog as a debate

Darius,

I will explain my part since I know about my intentions more than others. 

My first response to BP was based on his blog where he took an isolated reference from the literature and ignored thousands of others with counterpoints, which I exemplified.

My second response was directly based on BP's response to you where he argued that while he agreed that Cyrus was a great man, but basically "show me where on the cylinder it refers to human rights........".  In my response to BP's statement, I analytically dissected what the ancient conquerors did as far as massacres, pillage, conversion, displacement and salvery and why the actions of Cyrus that were exemplified (line-by-line analysis) on the cylinder infered a break from the norm/expected barbaric behaviour and layed the foundations for the human rights charter, the rights of nations charter and anti-slavery ideas.

In his reponse, BP tells us to chill out and use our real names on the blogs!  What a freaking disappointment!  I am outa here.

Anti Iranian Bias

There is a "natural" anti-Iranian bias in the West regarding history. There is place "teaching company" which makes DVD and CD courses on various topics. In general their courses are good and informative. These include courses by prominent Western professors on history. 

A while ago I bought some on Ancient world. The thing that amazed me was the obvious bias for Greece against Persia in the lectures. He was visibly excited when talking about Alexander. When the Greeks won he would say "fortunately". When Persia won he would minimize it and be visibly not happy.

I brought this up with the company and they offered my a full refund!! I was not asking for a refund rather a more honest and fair lesson. That was not to be. 

Add to it the abomination of "300" and no one should doubt the Western bias.

Regarding this particular issue MM and others have done a fine job of debunking it. Unfortunately we don't have a long list of titles to "validate" us.

Therefore it goes back to using our brains and examining the arguments. I like MM's reasoning.

Dariush Jan

I don't want to turn this blog into a vendetta. However a questions has been raised on why we don't use our real names. This is just like the question "Q" was posing a while ago. I have ansered this a half dozen time.

But the questions keeps getting raise.

As if the persons asking it really don't understand what torture and executions mean. Or as if IRI is some benevolent democracy!! Some like you are willing to use their real names. I respect that but I have given my reasons for not using my real name. 

I ask: is there anyone here who does not know what IRI does to dissidents? Or what using your real name may result in if you go back to Iran.

Response to Mr Parhami

Mr Parhami is trying to make a big deal about people using pseudo names. I already responded and explained why we do it. He has ignored my response and is harping on the accusations again. That proves to me he is disingenuous. Nevertheless I re post my response so everyone gets to read it and decide for themselves.

Why are we Iranians scared of speaking our minds?

Now let me think.

• Getting put in jail when we go back to Iran.
• Having our family in Iran harassed and worse.
• Having our property in Iran confiscated.
• Being called "mohareb" and executed.

We have our nation occupied by a military dictatorship. I for one will not risk my family back in Iran. Nor will I stay quiet. So that leaves me with the choice of using a pseudo name.

I don't think mr bparhami had malicious intentions

Please don't turn this blog into a personal vendetta. I truly don't think bparhami had any other intent other than encourage an openminded debate.

There is nothing wrong with that even if I think that the reactions it triggers are normal given the coniderable efforts made by the current regime to dismantle and discredit the Pre Islamic heritage of Iran in the minds of our contemporaries for purely poltical reasons mainly the fear of a Restoration of the Monarchy in Iran given the disastrous record of the revolution and of the discredit that now sheds on the Republic which resulted and the mediocrity of it's representatives worldwide :

IRI ambassador's wife in Paris.

Now From a purely academic point of view however I think it is always interesting to challenge our understanding of history and what we deem as fully admitted facts.

So Mr. bparhami please keep on blogging on what you are interested in and deem important to share with your readership. This is a Free Forum after all.

But the responses one get's are also often the result of that freedom of expression. Like a person rightly once said it is a two edged sword ... ;0)

Please chill out and don't read a conspiracy into every word

It seems that my blog post has touched a nerve, with several anonymous commentators finding fault with my statement, which only said that the cylinder isn’t what it is sometimes claimed to be: not that Cyrus wasn’t a great king; not that he did not advocate and practice tolerance; not that he didn’t do great things in Babylon; not that his Persia wasn’t a center for art and culture in the ancient world. It seems that my response to the very first comment, by Mr. Darius Kadivar (the only person commenting under a real name), has gone unnoticed. Please read that response. I also find the conspiracy theory full of holes (like most conspiracy theories). Yes, there are people who are hostile towards Iran for various reasons, but for every such person, there are probably many who love and respect our people and the rich traditions of Iran. In the long run, the negative views of the former group will be more than offset by the opinions of the latter. There is no need for alarm.

another closer analysis of the cylinder and its inference as ...

While nowhere on the cylinder you will find the words human rights, rights of nations and anti-slavery......, inference to the actions taken by Cyrus and recorded on the cylinder clearly demonstrated the headlines as the first document on human rights, rights of nations and anti-slavery. 

In order to do so, one needs to understand how the conquerors from the time of antiquity all the way to Saddam behaved.  Generally, there were 4 policies exercised by the conquerors, 1. massacres/pillage, 2. population displacements (exile), 3. conversion and 4. slavery.

Points (1,2): Cyrus did not massacre/pillage the Babylonians, nor did he send them into exile in far away lands; # 1&2 were extremely common in the ancient world.  Modern versions are the war in Rowanda/Yugoslavia, Saddam's displacement of the Kurds and Hitler's displacement of the Jews ending in death camps.

Cylinder line 14: he took them in justice and righteousness. Marduk, the great lord, looked joyously on the caring for his people, on his pious works and his righteous heart.

Cylinder line 24: My numerous troops marched peacefully into Babylon. In all Sumer and Akkad I permitted no enemy to enter.

Cylinder line 36: their [. . .] I permitted all to dwell in peace [. . .]

Point (3): While a devout Zoroastrian, Cyrus proclaimed that he respected Marduk, went to his temple and did not try to convert Babylonian to Zoroastrianism.  Furthermore, he freed and returned the enslaved Jews so that they could re-build their temple with the help of Persians.

Cylinder line 23: I took up my lordly residence in the royal palace with joy and rejoicing; Marduk, the great lord, moved the noble heart of the residents of Babylon to me, while I gave daily attention to his worship.

Point (4): Cyrus's actions have been deemed as the first act of mercy towards the enslaved as well - totally unheard of in the ancient world.

Cylinder line 25: The needs of Babylon and of all its cities I gladly attended to. The people of Babylon [and . . .], and the shameful yoke was removed from them. Their dwellings,

Cylinder line 26: which had fallen, I restored. I cleared out their ruins. Marduk, the great lord, rejoiced in my pious deeds, and

Cylinder line 34: I caused them to take up their dwelling in residences that gladdened the heart. May all the gods, whom I brought into their cities,...

Cylinder line 36: their [. . .] I permitted all to dwell in peace [. . .]

-------------------------------------------

You will find the modern version of what Cyrus said, descriptively in the cylinder, in the UN charter of the human rights.  Taken all together, Professor Richard Frye said it the best [*]:

"In short, the figure of Cyrus has survived throughout history as more than a great man who founded an empire. He became the epitome of the great qualities expected of a ruler in antiquity, and he assumed heroic features as a conqueror who was tolerant and magnanimous as well as brave and daring. His personality as seen by the Greeks influenced them and Alexander the Great, and, as the tradition was transmitted by the Romans, may be considered to influence our thinking even now."

[*] "Cyrus II", Encyclopædia Britannica 2008. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Accessed 28 August 2008 (//original.britannica.com/eb/article-1685/Cyr...).

Vishtaspa

Thank you for debunking this garbage that surfaces once in a while.

You are quite right about the British and their hated of Iran. They have done all that is possible to harm us. For an Iranian to take anything British say seriously is a mistake. In fact it is more than a simple mistake it is insane.

I give 0 credibility to anything having the UK stamp on. That includes: BBC; their "Scholars" and their "research". Angel is a great name for a nation that is truly "Angal" i.e a parasite.

VPK

Mr Parhami

I gather this is a part of the ongoing attack by IRI on pre Islamic Iran. So Cyrus was not a defender or human rights? He just happened to respect people's religion; restore Jews to their land and allow people to keep their own culture. Something that Islam has never done. 

But who is counting? He is dead and makes a good punching bag. Plus you didn't miss a chance to take a potshot at Zoroastrians while at it; very astute.

It's not any more so than

Greek "Democracy" that only allowed land-holding men to vote while women and those not from the polis (Specifically, onle one polis, Athens) were treated like dirt.

Yet no one questions that the genesis of democracy was in Athens. Nor should they.

It's simply anachronistic to impose modern conceptions of human rights on the Cyrus cylinder and judge it. By those same standards, Athenian democracy would be considered a farce.

The attempts by British archaeologists at discrediting the status of the cylinder are another assault on Iranian cultural heritage by the "divide-and-conquer" Angle Islanders in order to marginalize and destroy national unity in a nation they've had their sticky fingers in for far too long. Interesting that only the British have been leading the rallying cry against the cylinder...with the UN and the rest of the world recognizing that a clay cuneiform tablet that does not literally state "This is the world's first declaration of human rights!" may still be the world's first account of a genuine tolerance and fair treatment by foreign invaders.

Interesting that they've been so reluctant to loan out the cylinder and refuse to give it up after it was stolen in the 19th century (Much like the British Museum did with Greece's Elgin Marbles) if they view it as such an insignificant document.

 The Brits can't have their crumpets and eat them too. 

1st in: human rights/rights of nations/anti-slavery/free religio

The cylinder is considered the first charter of human rights, the first charter of rights of nations and the first anti-slavery proclamation.  Furthermore, the author of the cylinder, Cyrus The Great, was declared the right hand of God in the Old Testament, way-way-way before MR Pahlavi.  The significance of Marduk in the cylinder refers to the respect of Cyrus for all beliefs / religions and as such, he visited Marduk's temple to pay his respects.

While you quote one selected article on behalf of you claim, there are thousands of references otherwise.  But, it looks like the Amélie Kuhrt crowd (See, below) is becoming active again.

Thank you for your view, but no thanks.

------------------------- 

Here is a different view from the British museum you sited:

//www.britishmuseum.org/the_museum/news_and_press_releases/statements/cyrus_cylinder.aspx

Cyrus Cylinder - translation

--------------------------

As the first charter of human rights:

Cyrus the Greats' Cylinder; -- The Charter of Human Rights (CAIS)

+ thousands of other hits

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As the first charter of the rights of nations:

History of Iran: The Cyrus the Great Cylinder

+ thousands of other references

-----------------------------------

 As the 1st anti-slavery document:

//www.englisharticles.info/2010/04/08/human-rights-all-there-is-to-know/

+ thousands of other references

---------------------------------

Cyrus as the right hand of God

Persian Jews welcome the return of the Cyrus Cylinder home

“Thus saith the Lord to the anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden . . . he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts” Isaiah 45: 1-13"

+ thousands of other references

---------------------------

 The cyclinder is also described as one of the 10 best political documents in history by Guardian:

Ten of the best political documents | Society | The Guardian

-----------------------------

The following is one of the articles that outlines the strategies/actions of the anti-Cyrus crowd dating back to 1979:

 //www.savepasargad.com/2010-March/Koorosh-ahmadi-Cyrus%20Cylinder%20in%20Wikipedia.htm

"Their activities are considered as vandalism as their comments have either no reliable ground or "Citation" in Wiki terms, or they are mostly based on the biased views of some not so accountable individuals. They mainly use the ideas of a person called “Amélie Kuhrt” who apparently has started all of this baseless campaign against “Cyrus the Great” as far back as 1979; weird enough that she is the first person in the History that has hated Cyrus the Great, someone whom even his enemies loved him!

For instance, a line in that same section, by referring to Amélie Kuhrt says:

“The interpretation of the cylinder as a "charter of human rights" has been criticized by some scholars and characterized as political propaganda on the part of the Pahlavi regime.”

[referenced to: Amélie Kuhrt, "The Cyrus Cylinder and Achaemenid imperial policy" in Journal of Studies of the Old Testament 25, p. 84; Lendering, Jona (2007-01-28). "The Cyrus Cylinder". livius.org. //www.livius.org/ct-cz/cyrus_I/cyrus_cylinder.html. Retrieved 2008-07-30.]"

I was just making a point about the cylinder, not about Cyrus

Mr. Kadivar: My post was only about the cylinder not containing a charter of human rights. It was not a general statement about Cyrus, a great king who ruled justly and humanely. I own a copy of the book "Farmaan-e Koroush-e Bozorg," authored by Abdolmajid Arfa'ee and published by "Farhanguestaan-e Adab va Honar-e Iran," which I examined carefully before posting my blog entry. The fact that Cyrus freed a great many peoples upon conquering Babylon is well-documented and beyond dispute. What is at issue is whether this particular cylinder contains all that various groups claim.

Hmm ...

From the Award Winning Documentary "Engineering an Empire" 

Recommended Reading:

He is Awake: Close Up on Cyrus Kar By Darius KADIVAR

A Monty Python Visits Persia! By Darius KADIVAR