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Solidarity

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Both still afraid to speak the truth 

Both have cultish supporters

Both have already been tasted by Iranian people and rejected

Both are very boring

Both have hard time speaking persian or english

Both totally rejected by a minor movement of Iranian people within few days.

Both been away too long from the country 

...

چقدر باید بد بخت باشیم اگر بخواهیم یکی‌ از این ۲ نفر را در آینده سیاسی ایران قرار بدهیم !

 آقا جان، مگر یک جمهوری ساده چه اشکالی‌ داره که حتما باید شاه در آن باشه یا یک خود فروش وطن فروش !؟

چرا انقدر سخت میگیرید و هچلهفت بازی در میارید ؟

من مطمئن هستم که ایران با یک جمهوری ساده کارش به جلو خواهد رفت !

دست خوش به خدا !

many differences

Well there are many differences...

Rajavi & their clan believe that they own Iran and they selfclaim to be the ETERNAL PRESIDENTS (in your dreams). they sold IRAN out to saddam hussein. they still live with old ideologies of anti-western imperialism.

Pahlavi (i mean the prince) he first of all never hurt any iranian people and never sold iran out to any forieng country. He has 21st century liberal democracy ideas and does not live in the past. he does not claim to be the shah.

What else do you want!!!????

MiNeum71

But that's exactly what you did. There's nothing else to say.
By the way, I didn't even bother reading all that you had copy/pasted -- just that you know. Your argumentation makes you a lot less relevant than you think.

Kourosh S
I know exactly what you mean, but what I mean is from what I see from these people, they'd still probably elect someone like Karrubi under a democratic system -- that's IF someone like him could run, etc. Anyway, that's all speculation.

Dorooghgoo

I don't practice copy and paste.

LOOOL

Poor thing, mano bash ke bara ki khoonamo kasif mikonam. he can't even tell the difference between a real and typed text and a copy and pasted version. So sad.

Bye bye ... and I congratulate myself

The answers to me were sooo typically old-expat-style: Parham is Mr. Paranoia (Now come back and start biting my bottoms at every post again!), still dreams of a movement without leader (There is something called book, some of them are good, read them); Anonymous Zed goes round in circles and talks a lot of hot air (So much for your generation which seems to still be snoring from their 30 years sleep.); KouroshS practises copy and paste (btw, you've already posted this comment to me) and believes democracy is served up on a plate.

I just want to post some of my comments from the last months. There is only one mistake I made: I had thought, Iranians wouldn't have the culture for a democratic system; now I know, this regards only the expats, the young Iranians are much more intelligent than them.

Nobody knows, what the future will bring anyway, but a tightened, intelligent person should be able to admit that he/she has been wrong; you missed the opportunity to do this. Nice to see, when the wheat is separated from the chaff :)))

----------

by MiNeum71 on Mon Feb 09, 2009 05:11 PM PST

I´m sorry for writing this but not electing demonstrates the incapability of the Iranians living in a democratic system. Iranians want a democratic system, but they don´t have the culture for that ...

Khatami is is not a liberator, but he can be another step towards Iranian Glasnost, and the next generation can be the reason for the Iranian Perestroika.

We remember what happened last time when Iranians wanted a liberator changing their political lifes. A sustainable societal improvement requires the participations of all the members of the society. Khatami can now be the right person, not strong, but intelligent, and I think that he is the only one who can make most of the the people taking part in that civil society. I hope the Iranians jump at that opportunity and have patience with him (but I know Iranians don´t have a great passion to patience) ...

by MiNeum71 on Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:45 AM PDT

... Civil disobedience is an active action, actually a subtle offence, with which you want to demontrate displeasure, for example when you go on strike. But sitting at home demonstrates only personified laziness and cowardice ...

I had wished something very different, something like a White Movement, all voting invalid whilst delivering a special message (for example We wanted another candidate/system/whatever). But without a leader, a reason, it's impossible to create e movement ... But staying at home not doing anything? The halo is slipping.

by MiNeum71 on Thu Jun 04, 2009 08:30 AM PDT

We have the same opinion about the IRI regime. But I don't understand the hopelessness and desultoriness how to get rid these scumbags. This sentence Freedom will come but no one knows when but not under the Mullahs is - I'm sorry - the evidence of having no knowledge. Do you believe the Mullahs will leave Iran just for fun or the freedom will fly to Iran as a gift?

If you think there can't be any change within the system, read China's Zhao Details Tiananmen Debate.

by MiNeum71 on Fri Jun 05, 2009 02:05 AM PDT

... 2) I know that there are many quarrels within this system, supporting the liberal forces can help them to get the upper hand; 3) the non-voters can only criticise (in typically Iranian manner), I still haven't read one single alternative to voting.

by MiNeum71 on Wed Apr 22, 2009 05:13 PM PDT

... When you say, a boycott disunits the nation, what is then the benefit for the society and the people? I say, only the win of the liberal forces can disunit the nation ... There is no guarantee that voting can help the people immediately, but no-voting guarantees the same bullshit for the next four years.

by MiNeum71 on Mon Apr 20, 2009 07:04 AM PDT

The question is not, who can be voted, the question is, how can people mark their territory. Yes, voting just for the sake of voting is a legal voice, why not? Also Mir-Hossein Moussavi is is a liberal candidate; it doesn´t matter to me what he did 30 years ago, important to me is his recent contribution. And don't forget, we can turn him to a new Gorbachev, a new Juan Carlos ...

And I never said that after these elections a secular country will be created. But this can be he first step ...

by MiNeum71 on Mon Apr 20, 2009 02:52 AM PDT

... Many of the clerics oppose the theocratic concept of rule by Islamic jurists and emphasise that there is no compulsion in religion or Islam that is not political. They also critisise the IRI and support the rights of the Baha'is saying that they are the citizens of this country, they have the right of citizenship and to live in this country. Furthermore, they must benefit from the Islamic compassion which is stressed in Quran and by the religious authorities.

These liberal forces can only work if they feel the support by the people. And the best support is to vote in June.

by MiNeum71 on Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:43 PM PDT

... Ali Khamenei was never elected, but there are also liberal forces ruling inside the IRI. Liberal votes make them stronger in this system, and this can provide a step-by-step solution towards a secular society.

---------- 

David ET ;0)

I don't Know if Reza Pahlavi ... Oops I meant Reza Shah II will cause their demise.

ROYALTY AMONGST THE PEOPLE!

But I am CERTAIN that NIAC/AIC will prolong their Survival :

AIC ...

//gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/06/american-iranian-council-leader-amir.html

NIAC ...

//4.bp.blogspot.com/_L6pDyjqqsvY/SSGBWwHZ40I/AAAAAAAAW-E/vDlGrBO7C70/s400/trita+parsi+2.jpg

What I am CERTAIN however is That SHE IS BRIGHT AND RIGHT ON ! ;0)

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-bRa86a8to

Cheers Mate !

DK

I get queazy even thinking about it

Parham.

I wish i could agree with you on those points. You know... During the debates, the only form of emotion that i could have mustered for this man was a feeling of respect for him for being an elderly clergy and of course his old age... i mean the way he talked made me so sad... thinking that this man is suffering from some kinda illness. As far as his policies and his governing capabilities. as much as i respect his democratic and free-thinking style  I did not see him as someone who can perform as   the executive power. he came across so weak. I just don't see him as a modern leader, but more like a "marjaa e taghlid" or a government consultant.

But again, at the end of the day, he is an ayatollah and there is so much one can expect of him and by his nature he will side with the islamic laws and those laws will be enforced one way or another. That is the sad thing about any system that has its roots and its strenght in its ideologic priorities and principles.

Mineum71

What God-forsaken, evil-minded, Paranoia-infested, Criminal, Sicko, has given you the permission to include yourself in the category of Intelligent and Young and full of energy people who are conducting the demonstrations???????????????????????????????????

This is the Crime of ALL CENTURIES. Not just the 21st century.

Just like an Old, sooooo old and Soooooooo broken record, You constantly repeat those words... Laj bazi... Ghahr kardan every single letter or message that you have posted to this site contains these utterly rubbish words. The goal and intentions and ambitions of any freedom seeking, young and energetic group of people will be NULL and VOID, If they include someone like you amongst them.

of course the elections were so Great. People had the chance to re-learn and review the lessons that they have been taking from this IRI regime in cheating, betrayal, corruption, and Oh , the most important of all , how to count votes the right way. Of course that our youth acheived so much. Yeah sure they did. 3000 in jails... more than 200 killed. so many wounded... Yep. Those indeed are achievements according to Bo...zo ...the clown.

You should go and thank your lucky stars that you are not on those streets alongside them, or Your Teeke bozorge Would have been your Goosh.

Mineum71

"exactly the same ones who have been sitting on their lazy asses claiming civil disobedience, are now taking advantage of a situation, which only was made possible by the voters, and writing stuff like Democracy..."

In your above quote, replace the words "civil disobedience" with "democracy through law and order", and replace the word "voter" with "brave revolutionaries", and...

And... You'll get what?

Here, read it with the replacement:

"exactly the same ones who have been sitting on their lazy asses claiming "democracy through law and order", are now taking advantage of a situation, which only was made possible by the "brave revolutionaries", and writing stuff like Democracy..."

What you get is exactly the same kind of crap that Khomeini told Bakthtiar 30 years ago. So much for your generation which seems to still be snoring from their 30 years sleep.

But! But luckily, the new generation doesn't think like you. God help us if it did.

David ET: Here is a run down on what is happening in Iran:

The hardliner backed by Khamenei, Sepah and the likes of A.N. has been increasingly amassing power both financially and militarily. But only at the expense of the reformists backed by Bazar, and the likes of Rafsanjani, Khatami, Mousavi, and by the younger generation of Iranians (only because of lack of other choices).

The tilt in the balance of power reached a critical level. So the infight began. However, both fronts know that their very existence depends on the survival of the regime and what it stands for, i.e., an "Islamic" republic, as opposed to a "secular" republic.

It is true that all pro-seculars have joined the reformist front in the streets in Iran and abroad too, but that doesn't mean that this front is secular!

Much killing took place while Rafsanjani and Khatami were presidents. If there was no fraud and had Mousavi won the election through the so called voting, the balance of power would have tilted again in favor of the reformists. Balance of power would be restored and the killings of those against the regime would have continued on schedule.

In fact under Mousavi, it would be easier to kill and eliminate any opposition (just as it was under Khatami behind the veil of "reform"). Mousavi has no problem finding out that you or I were executed because we wanted this regime overthrown. No problem at all.

Of course this scenario did not take place. But this was the scenario you were preaching. Nothing would have come out of this voting. Nothing at all, except another tilt in the balance of power.

The only reason "some" thing happened is that there was a fraud! A fraud that took all pro-vote people by surprise.

So again: Assume there was no fraud and Mousavi won. Then what? It would have been just another Khatami. Another sleeping pill for the people that would work for four years.

This is what you supported. Nothing more. So don't get exited over your pro-vote stand.

Parham

y comment to Mineum was just what i wrote which I find nothing personal or mentioning anyone in it! I dont know your "personal" history with MiNeum71 and frankly I dont even want to know.

There are few who have their own personal fits with me that I dont even catch up with . e.g. Here you see same person with different ID's making personal comments which I just dont find worth of replying to.

What the person doesnt get is that the common denominators of what is being repreated are so obvious including political comments, . that it would not take a scientist to figure out who it is, just that not having enough IQ and writing it , the person does not recoginze own traits left behind all over when signed as registered or under different unregistered names. 

anyway my point is , it is best to address the subject and avoid the pitiful personal comments 

the worst thing such pests hate is ignoring them, so it is best to give it to them IGNORE

Replies

Kourosh S and Anonymous Zed

Thanks for the vote of confidence! I was beginning to have doubts as these guys use personal attacks instead of discussing ideas. They've done it time after time, and they'll surely do it again! And again, there's nobody on this site to tell them NOT to!

Kourosh S, just a little point: I think Karrubi would also have a place in a democracy (as I'm sure you meant also), it's just that he won't have any "Islamic laws" per se to enforce.

David ET

This is about your first post -- the second, where you agree and go along with MiNeum71 is preposterous and nothing but a personal attack:

I was just discussing what you said with someone else, elsewhere. The idea of having these guys at each others' throats is all fine. However, as you see, it's not working that way now. One side (the "hardliners") brutalize the SUPPORTERS of the other side and again, the supporters are made to believe a false system can exist. That only drags them back again and again to the scene, and they'll get burned again and again, while the "leaders" of the soft line will be treated well, even in jail. This all while the system all together only gets maintained. Basically, it's just a way of hurting the people. You'll tell me it's their belief if they want to believe in "soft line", but I'll tell you it's YOUR strategy, and it's ultimately hurting people. Do you want that?
More, IF this is really a beating-up of the two "factions" between themselves, it will only help weaken the two sides, it won't make them go away. What's your strategy for making them go away?

MiNeum71

Seems like whatever I've told you previously, you're still burning from, because you keep following me everywhere to make attacks on my person! Anyway, as you probably noticed, I was ignoring you so far, but on this, I will reply, because it's not only your nose I would like to rub in your poop.

You voted and you say it's because of your voting that this happened. Fine. Only you DIDN'T KNOW this will happen! Quite to the contrary, you thought you'd vote, Mousavi would get elected, then you'd go back home and sit down on YOUR behind for the next four years because supposedly, you'd done your "duty". Except, people like me HAD TOLD YOU SO, had told you that these guys are not worth it -- eventually they ended up cheating on your votes! Now you voters, who believed you were going to get a "peaceful evolution" to what you thought (and apparently still think) would be democracy, you guys who didn't "want a revolution" because a revolution was supposedly bad and it was what us old timers had done, ended up EXACTLY DOING THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU WERE PREACHING: You poured out in the streets, fought and imitated exactly that revolution that you attribute to US! :)

Just a point here in between: Don't congratulate yourself on that too much either, it wasn't you pouring into the street, it was a bunch of BRAVE people who went out there and fought. Thought I'd remind you that, but anyway...

Now you have claims to this uprising. Fine. But look at it this way: Had the people gotten together and boycotted the vote with a large number (and I insist about the "large") --for example if those who voted for Mousavi didn't vote-- we'd have sent a similar message to the tyrants in power (or perhaps even scarier in a way) that they're on the wrong track. This way, not only there was loss of life, there is now a consolidation of power by the hardline faction and their grip will be even crueler, whereas maybe they would have gotten scared and made things easier with the boycott. Which goes to say that all together, although this movement was extremely admirable, it was more of an emotional outburst with no real leader or plan --which is always or almost doomed to fail-- than a planned and rigorously organized rebellion. And who pays now? All of us!

So don't go congratulating yourself too much...

Now come back and start biting my bottoms at every post again!

I'll add this just for the record, since now I was responsible for the revolution 30 years ago according to you: I was a supporter of Bakhtiar back then (and I always remained one) as he was the only one who spoke about democracy and made sense + seemed to believe what he was saying.

This is not to say I wasn't fooled by Khomeyni's "rap" about retiring in Qom, but at least I went with my better judgment in the end instead of blindly following something I had no idea about, like you people are doing -- again, most of you didn't even know we had a prime minister once, save knowing who Mousavi was two months ago.
There's something Anonymous Zed wrote that's VERY true: It just seems people don't learn after 30 years... Well if you don't learn, you're bound to repeat the same mistakes again and again.

MiNeum71

Thanks for reminder .

The failed old stratregies have prodcued nothing in the past 30 years and what happend in Iran is the best proof that the other approach was effective . If nothing else it broke the taboo of Khamenei to the point that from streets to rooftops to microphones people critisize "the leader".

Khamenei/Ahamadinejad is a weak combination that is doomed to fail.

khob khoda ro shokr

maa ham yek eshtebah dar khandan kardin chon mashallah esmetoon balaye post ghashang neveshteh shodeh boodo maa ham bayad chand taa emial baraya azadi yeki as doostan az zendan mizadim o ajaleh shod o  ...in eshtebh amr bar lack of objectivity va emotionalism ma shod... mibakhshid aghaye kadivar e objective. 

I stand corrected you dont believe that " the infighting amongst the mullahs will eventually lead to their demise".

You may even think Reza pahlavi will cause their demise who knows :-)

:)

This is sooo funny, exactly the same ones who have been sitting on their lazy asses claiming civil disobedience, are now taking advantage of a situation, which only was made possible by the voters, and writing stuff like Democracy is so easy to achieve, let us make it possible, yippee, ...

These elections were so great, the brave, young Iranians achieved more than the expats in the past 30 years, than the generation, which caused the Revolution. The new Iran belongs to my generation of Iranians, to people, who are optimistic, dedicated, intelligent, full of energy, and without those typically old Iranian habits like Lajh-bazee and Ghar-Kardanee always using sentences like Fayde Nadare and Hamashoon Mesle Haman.

Bye bye you old smart asses  :)))

PMOI supporter

Iran has tortured and prisoned your people because you guys are TRAITORS, you guys are ENEMIES!

You guys fought with the ENEMY (IRAQ). YOU ARE NOT WELCOME IN IRAN, NOR are you welcome to call yourselves IRANIAN!

You are an embarassment to any Iranian with HONOR.

PMOI, your people have NO HONOR.

David ET Hello?!! ... ;0)

Not Sure I wrote this ...

//iranian.com/main/2009/jun/hadi-ghaffari

But rather aaminian

Emotions are blurring your eye sight and Objectivity or You need eyeglasses ...

LOL

Re: Parham

"Why don't Iranians seek and fight for democracy instead?"

Unfortunately, Iranians only support a "person", not a "concept" such as democracy.

Just read the comments in this blog. It is only talk about "persons", not the ideas these "persons" support.

For example, David ET keeps talking about the person of RP, he does not talk about RP's ideals, instead he attack RP at the personal level.

We are still a backwarded people, of course I mean those who live abroad. Those in Iran are a lot more advanced.

P.S. The only level headed person in this blog is you my "hooshiaar" friend.

"Great Summary Q, couldn't

"Great Summary Q, couldn't have said it better"

Talking about hypocrisy. You just complained that Irandokth sides with IRI supporters, and then you go and do the same?

My, my, talking about hyporcrisy.

Re: Davood Banayan

Are you saying that RP or Mariam are soooooooooooo relevant that they can kill a multi million people movement?

We both know that they are only light pieces and nothing more.

No, they are not runinig the movement, and Irandokth and capt_yawn, no nobody is clubing the people because these two irrelevant individuals spoke.

It goes to show that you are giving too much credit to these two people. I wonder why?

I agree

David ET, you remind me of those people in Iran 30 years ago that whenever they were warned about Khomeini, they kept making similar rants you are making today about voting. Pay attention to your country's history.

1. A civil disobedience campaign would have accomplished the same but without the violence.

2. You didn't know that voting would cause civil unrest. You did NOT know it. Again, I repeat: YOU DID NOT KNOW IT. But now you talk as thought you knew it.

3. A massive civil disobedience campaign could have caused even more unrest and take even a bigger ginney out of the bottle. Notice the word "could have", we don't know.

4. Therefore, stop harrassing those who were against voting.

5. It is easy for RP, Mariam Rajavi, David ET and similar characters to sit in the comfort and security of their western homes and say to the people of Iran "lengesh kon" and watch them die, and then say, oh their death was worthed because now the "jen" is out of the bottle. Say that to the mourning mothers.

6. You remind me of the those who kept saying Khomeini has brought the "jen" out of the bottle, let's support him at all cost because people are believing in themselves.

You have learnt NOTHING in the past 30 years. Still acting on immediate emotions, just like those who ruined our country 30 years ago.

David ET and partibaazi

"As for the one who change with the wind , from siding with Jaleo one minute to blogging about 4 more years and then bragging about attending LA demos to counting scores between Rajavi and Pahlavi and few hours later agreeing against it , the same one who find likes of paid agent of Islamists and IR (George Galloway) "intelligent" and "voice of reason"... I do not have to reply to more, she has spoken volumes with the wishy washy and fly with the wind inconsistencies for a long time, the rest are personal vandettas presented publicly."

Looks like David ET has some inside influence in Iranian.com. In Iran, they call this partibaazi.

Jokes aside, I have written the equivalent of the above quote many times, only to find them deleted again and again. I wonder why this one was not deleted? Maybe I should register too.

Irandokth! khanoom! You are NOT one with the green movement. Get this through your skull. And I didn't say this, your "kaarnaameh" in Iranian.com said this.

David ET: Control your hatred of the Pahlavis. It was a similar hatred that left Bakhtiar alone 30 years ago. Learn something from history.

guys

In a war halva kheyr nemikonan. We know what we want but considering the situation in Iran which is VERY different than Shah's era when there was one force that opposition were against.

One needs to empower one side in order to weaken the other which happen to have the guns, forces, media and reources . We need tactics and strategu than just yes we can bare handed!

Eventually Darish Kadivar today got it and wrote:"I believe that the infighting amongst the mullahs will eventually lead to
their demise."

To which I answered : Hello???!

THAT HAS BEEN THE IDEA ALL
ALONG!

At last its making a dent!  

defintely a better option than standing oustide without any practical
alternatives to offer and just giving slogans that they all are the same.  Its not that maa Asheghhe risho pashme inaa hastim!

Islam-free democracy?

I think what parham says make perfect sense. For any movemnet to be interpreted as a democratic one, we need to make sure that we remove any element of authocracy, in our case the overly emphacized element of Religion.  The common denaminator among all the reformists candidates is their allegience to the Imame ozma and Velayate fagih. They all may have good and credible agendas and the willingness to do away with the most radical measures in the constituation of IRI, but when all it is said and done they are all peas in the same pod.

Karoubi is a mullah not because of the turban on his head, but because of the teachings that have been instilled in his heart and mind and he will always be making decisions that are in agreement and in line with such teachings.

That is a fact.

David

It didn't seem to me they were all fighting for democracy, but that's not exactly the point.

What I meant was in response to your plea for Karrubi. I don't think he is fighting for democracy. I think he's pleading for "theocracy light", which is very different from democracy.

What I mean by seeking democracy is real democracy, not some unknown type of "moderate" Islam, or whatever. A system of government that encompasses all, and equally.

And believe me, it's not as hard as some make it sound to achieve. It doesn't need renaissance, more "stages" of the Islamic Republic (that would be only prolonging and sublimating this tyranny), it doesn't need more wasted time -- it's within reach and closer than most think. One only needs to see.

Parham

I did not understand your sentence. I thought people who are in the streets standing in front of thugs and guns bare handed are fighting for democracy? What do you propose they specifically should do NOW "Instead" of what they are doing?

I don't know about what you are doing but they are doing much more than I am doing for democracy.

"Why don't Iranians seek and fight for democracy instead?"

In Response to PMOI Supporter

My friend, yes you are Iranian and your vote and your opinion counts just as the same as everyone else's - no more and no less. But PMOI does not have a real broad-based support in Iran and almost everyone I know inside and outside Iran is against PMOI (from Bandar Abbas and Kerman to Tehran and Mashhad and Vancouver and Toronto and LA and NY/DC/Boston/Philly). Why? Because of their siding with Saddam Hossein, the cult-like behavior and the wife-swapping and thousands of other strange stories. PMOI has betrayed its "vatan" even though you claim otherwise. Action speaks louder than words. You really think siding with Saddam and letting him invade Iran and marching his troops in Tehran would have led us to freedom and independence? As horrible as IRI is, I prefer an Irooni dictator to Saddam and his troops marching down Khiabooneh Naderi (Jomhuri nowadays - imagine that and tell me you do not shiver!) This organization had sold its soul. Hanifnejad, Badi'zadegan and the other founder are all shaking in their graves. Those guys used to wear ties if you remember the pictures. They would not have approved of a cult. And yes your "kids" have fought - with and for Saddam for the most part. But for every 1 PMOI "kid" who has fought IRI, there are 1000 non-PMOI kids who have fought IRI - both the Iraqi army and the IRI goons. Your opinion and thoughts are yours and are respected but your (PMOI's) actions are not and have not been nearly respectable.

David Is Right: Karroubi is the MAN ;0)

Why Do You think I voted for him in the first place ?

SATIRE: I voted ;0)

LOL

Equal rights.

Hello guys, Hope all is well

As a mojahedin supporter, I believe we have every right  to make comments and take support of the Iranian Nations struggle toward freedom and democracy!

Also, keep in mind that we have been fighting this regime for 30 years and all our boys and girls are also protesting on the streets, I believe this is our natural right!

And as a PMOI supporter, I want freedom for all!

You cannot ban me from taking part in the national uprising because this regime has tortured and imprisoned us the most i think!

Anyway, hoping for the best and a FREE IRAN!

Cheers!