kps59

Awlia Allah Amoli

Thank you for that little bit of clarification Azal.

It is, of course, no contradiction for it to make reference to Saints and Masters as this genealogical line is in fact a family from which sprung many Saints and Masters. A fact of which the Sufi's of the region were well aware. It also makes perfect sense that it would refer to "Providential Guides of God" as in one sense, the Kings from David's line are in fact just exactly such guides. In another sense though not in exclusion to the one just indicated, these Kings are the Ensigns, the ones whom God has made a "signet ring" to identify the one around whom we are to unify, i.e. the Messiah ben David, Baha'u'llah. These "Providential Guides of God" are the lesser Covenant of God by which he has promised to provide guidance for us during the time periods between each of the Manifestations of His Holy Spirit and as such would naturally include many Saints, Viceregents, and certainly "Awlia" in any dispensation in addition to the more specific Davidic Kings in succession.

As far as Nur being removed from Amol geographically, this is not significant as the Tarik-I-Ruyan was written down many years after it's author left Amol in haste to escape the bitter feuds going on between the houses of Nur and Kujur, (the very histories of which he would later write in the Ruyan) whose influence was not confined to any single town in the province. This is about the history of the Bavandids of Mazandaran, the family of Bostanai or Bav or Baw as he was called by the Persians. Bav was the Davidic King who married one of the daughters of Yazdegird III, and father of the houses of the Bavandids of Mazandaran. Both the Tarik-I-Ruyan and the Tarik-I-Tabaristan are about this period of the Davidic Kings in Persia immediately following the long period of the House of David in Exile.  

Awlia Allah Amoli

Means "the Saints/Vicegerents/Providential Guides of God from Amol." Amol is a town in Mazandaran. Unless you circumscribe the meaning of Awlia to just the Shi'ite Imams, even here it wouldn't make sense, as the Awlia Allah in that denotation weren't Amoli but Makki from Arabia. The title denotes a definition of Awlia (sing. wali) that is actually denoting Sufi saints/masters. If it was speaking of the 'family of God' in a strict Shi'ite definition, the title in that case would be Al Allah, not Awlia Allah -- even Awlia Al Allah!

In any case Nur in Mazandaran is a completely different locality than Amol. This book you speak of as such, from its title, has nothing to do with the progeny of Mirza Abbas Bozorg Nuri or his ancestry.

History of Baha'u'llah's family

The historical records of the family of Baha'u'llah dating back to the Throne of King David in Persia are found throughout the literature of Ebn Esfandiar, and Shah Abbas. Additional records are contained in the "Awlia' Allah Amoli" which is actually not the name of the author but rather a description of what the writings are which is a history of "the family of God" or the "Holy Family in Amol". 

Is there any proof available that Bahá'ulláh was anywhere...

Yes actually there is a fair amount of photographic record as well as official documents regarding orders carried out by functionaries of the Ottoman government during His entire period of Exile, the forced marches and His being transported as a prisoner of the Ottoman State as well as his entire time spent living out the remainder of His life in Acca and His passing as well. Much documentation is available from sources with no connection at all to the Baha'i Faith which corroborates the records contained in Baha'i history books. These include sources from many countries outside of the Ottoman Empire from the same time period. A significant amount of the corroborating records are from eyewitness accounts and of course those who were alive then who knew Him. 

Melchizedec, Priest King of Salem

By Hebrew accounts he was the builder, King and High Priest (great educator) of Salem (Jerusalem). He was Shem, the survivor of the flood who was the "blessed son of Noah" and he established the Bet Din and the Bet Midrash of the Hebrews. Abraham paid tithes to him and thus the Levitical priests to follow also did this.

Hebrew legend states that this High Priesthood is not passed on through any particular lineage as is the Levitical Priesthood and that the High Priest After the Order of Melchizedec appears 4 times, once every 2,000 years, in the Adamic cycle thus dividing the Adamic cycle into trimesters of 2,000 years. The 4 promised appearances of Melchizedec are 1.Adam, 2.Shem, 3.Jesus, 4.Leland Jensen.

It is fair to note that according to Christian Scholars, any personages prior to Abraham are considered to be "Legendary".

One very useful source for research is Louis Ginzberg's "Legends of the Jews" though other ancient peoples have histories that include accounts of these personages and their exploits, though cross cultural and linguistic cross referencing can be a painstaking adventure though well worth it.  

From Melchizedec to Baha'u'llah

Beginning with Shem, "the blessed son of Noah" who was Melchizedec, there were 10 generations to Abraham. Following Abraham, "father of multitudes" there are 12 generations to King David. The Davidic line of succession goes from King David, immediately to
his son Solomon, through a series of 17 successors from father to son up to and including Shenazzar, "judge of God" who is also remembered as Daniel, "he who God has redeemed" in the Bible. Beginning with Shenazzar and throughout the time of Babylonian captivity the Davidic Kings are referred to as the "Exilarchs". The last of the Exilarchs named Bostanai, "the prince of the captivity" and father of the Bavandids of Persia married the Persian Zoroastrian princess named Dara or "Izdundad" one of the daughters of the last of the Sassanian rulers YazdegirdIII. Through 33 succeeding
generations from father to son it comes to the Davidic King Jesse who was the 10th generation ancestor of Baha'u'llah still in a direct biological line from father to son. Baha'u'llah passed
the Davidic Kingship on to His son 'Abdu'l-Baha and from 'Abdu'l-Baha it
departed "from between the feet of Judah" as prophesied in Genesis
49:10 when Abdu'l-Baha passed it on to His adopted son Aghsan Mason Remey and from him it went to the Aghsan Pepe Remey who passed it on to Aghsan Neal Chase.This complete genealogy can be downloaded and viewed here.  //www.uhj.net/genealogy/genealogy-of-christ.h... The histories that contain the recorded details of this entire genealogical tree as illustrated at the link are extant.

Military Prowess

"But yet you are providing consistent, by the hour/by the day responses to this thread here? Right <grin> ;-)"

Yes, I admit I am finding entertainment in members of this thread that typically one does not find on the internet.  But you can tell that from my track. :)

Dave is usually wrapped up in festivities this time of year as I understand it but I suspect he is receiving your regards personally as we speak. 

You will find military prowess the "Fleet Antiterrorism Security Team" and its alliances including "Presidential Asset Security."   

You almost never visit this site

But yet you are providing consistent, by the hour/by the day responses to this thread here? Right <grin> ;-)

My regards to General David H. Petraeus. Convey to him, if you would, that it is much easier from where I sit to decimate the Taliban/al-CIA-duh (and capture Osama, if he is indeed alive, which I don't believe he is) than what they are letting on in the media. That is, unless the US military prowess is in fact a complete fiction  while also being one of the most incompetent powers in all of military history...

??

"Umm, it's been on the list of the most discussed blogs for the past week, bro, with 109 responses as of today. Haven't you taken a look on the right-hand box of this site??"

Not really.  I almost never visit this site.  On the rare occasions that I do I sometimes see a blog that attracts my attention like this one or the one by CENTCOM.  :)

Nope

do you ever grow tired of repeating yourself???

Not where you're concerned, sugar... ;-)

??

I didn't know here existed until you provided the link.  :) 

Umm, it's been on the list of the most discussed blogs for the past week, bro, with 109 responses as of today. Haven't you taken a look on the right-hand box of this site??

Here Exists

"Indeed, and I couldn't agree more. But why aren't you then prepared to say that explicitly here?"

I didn't know here existed until you provided the link.  :) 

Happy Hanukkah to you too. 

thanks DW your information is useful...

Azal..... do you ever grow tired of repeating yourself???

DW Duke

If we had fewer people telling others what they can and cannot believe the world would be a much better place.

Indeed, and I couldn't agree more. But why aren't you then prepared to say that explicitly here?

 You are making extremely broad generalizations

On the contrary, I believe I have hit the nail on the head bullseye ;-)

Happy Hanukkah!

Nur-i-Azal

You are making extremely broad generalizations apparently about a variety of topics so it is unclear precisely what you are saying lacks credible evidence.  As for the genealogy of Baha-ullah, I have no information about it other than what I have seen in various publications; moreover it is irrelevant to me because I don't believe the teachings anyway but I do defend the right of a person to hold those beliefs regardless of whether I believe they have merit.  If we had fewer people telling others what they can and cannot believe the world would be a much better place.

That's assuming

The theory that Melchizedek is Shem the son of Noah, which is problematic oral tradition not possessing any antiquity, or unanimous credibility.

The Nuri family's geneology has absolutely no connection whatsoever to ancient Israelite kings or geneologies. Period! I know that advancing such narratives serves the political and propaganda purposes of some extremely naive pro-Zionist Jews (who are technically not amongst the Bahaim themselves), which DW I am assuming you are. But beyond that, there is absolutely not one iota of either prima facie or geneological credibility to this theory -- not to mention a complete and total lack of evdience or the means to obtain it. If you think there is, I challenge you put it in front of some notable people at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, not to mention rabbis, and see how far it gets.

Furthemore there are descendents of Husayn 'Ali living in Israel itself so tests to prove/or disapprove such DNA hypotheses is extremely easy to do and come by. But even with that, one would have to question any methodology from the outset that was working with an at best dubious (and totally unscientific) hypothesis that a connection could be made to ancient Israelite kings from such obtainable DNA. As such even with the obtaining of DNA from the family of Husayn 'Ali, to set out to  attempt to actually prove with the available means and methodologies is actually about quackery rather than hard science by any definition.

Also, it occurs to me that the obsession of some contemporary circles of naive pro-Zionist Jews with the whole DNA being able to prove lineal descent from David/Solomon stuff, is like a manifestation of the Nazi obsession with eugenics! Think about that for a minute...

No

And Melchizedek was never a real person, in any case...

Melchizedek

Melchizedek was Avraham's grandfather so if Baha ullah really is descended from Avraham, then yes.  :)  I know nothing of Baha ullah's genealogy other than what I have seen published in various sources. 

Is there any proof available that Bahá'ulláh was anywhere...

Related to the High Priest Melchizedek????

The Messiah as mediator

Has shades of Arianism and Docetic Gnosticism, which is probably one of the reasons driving Church authorities in the various traditional denominations up the wall with their more liberal and progressive leaning flock. But this is more an Anglophone and North American phenomenon and not pervasive. In most of the rest of the "Christian world" the doctrine is still pretty much dyed in the wool incarnationist where JC is literally the word made flesh, etc., so the majority of our "Jews on training wheels" still haven't completely chilled out.

Bring on the Tikkun!  :)

I lean more toward Rabbenu

I lean more toward Rabbenu Tam on the issue of Christianity though it is clearly avodah to Jews.  My observation is that modern Christians don't worship an incarnate being but rather see their messiah as a spiritual mediator.  Rambam's comment there is quite interesting concerning the role of Islam and Christianity as preparing the world for Machiach bed David.  A rabbi I know refers to Christians as "Jews on training wheels."  :) 

Thanks

Thanks for the link to "The History of Persia."  It will be an interesting read.  Have you read "A Jewish Princedom in Feudal France", by Arthur Zuckerman, Columbia University Press, 1972?   

Re: Exilarchs

Indeed there may be tens of thousands and more who can trace their genalogies back to King David through one parent or both but there is only one directly father to son line in which every one who was the sovereign is fully recorded and accounted for. All others are disqualified from that singular line though they may number in the millions. In any generation there may have been many who "may have" been heirs to the throne but in the end only one was chosen and seated thereupon. So it has been since Solomon and so it remains today. 

//books.google.com/books?id=XWIVAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&client...=onepage&q=&f=false

The Almohads

Where to North Africa and Muslim Spain what the Taliban and the Wahhabis are today to Afghanistan and the Arabian penninsula. These guys were totally uncompromising puritanical fundamentalists of the most bigotted sort. Most of the Sufis had serious problems with them, which is why you had an exodus of so many notable North African Sufi figures to Egypt and the Middle East during their reign.

As such one cannot blame Maimonides one bit all! But I also tend to think his son's more optimistic appraisal wasn't sui generis either, and that his father did not exactly hold a totally negative view of Islamicate civilization. After all much of the Guide for the Perplexed and Maimonides' philosophical thinking in general was very much a footnote to Avicenna (Ibn Sina). This explains, in my view, why Abraham would be so ga-ga over a post-Avicennan Neoplatonist like Suhrawardi.

I am on the same page with the RAMBAM on Christianity, at least in its incarnationist form anyway. FYI

The persecution of Spanish

The persecution of Spanish Jewry by the Almohads seems to have negatively influenced Rambam's vews of Islam which carried over into his writings.  Contrast his comments with those of Rashi who seemed to think highly of Islam and his grandson Rabbenu Tam expanded the sphere of tolerance to include Christianity via the concept of shittuf.  Maimonides of course, considered Christianity to be idol worship pure and simple.  

DW

:-)

Moreh Navuchim/Dalalat'ul-Ha'irin is also one of my all-time favourite medieval philosophical texts as well. I actually took a semester long graduate seminar 15 years ago with Leaman reading half of the original Arabic text with him. Also Guide for the Perplexed is recommended as essential reading, together with the Sefer Yetzirah, by my favourite medieval Kabbalist Abraham Abulafia.  Yes, RAMBAM's observation about Islam and the progeny of Ishma'el is most peculiar indeed. What are your views about its reasons?

Nur-i-Azal

I find Avraham's work interesting for a couple of reasons.  First, Rambam's "The Guide for the Perplexed" is one of my favorite writings and Avraham expanded that work.  Secondly, I regard Islam as a noahide faith which I would think would be consistent with the writings of Avraham.  Rambam makes an observation about Ishmaelites that seems contradictory to the Torah.  Have you noticed it?  (Beresheit 17:26 v. Laws of Idol Worship)

DNA is irrelevant.

The biological lineage of Judah with respect to the Davidic Kingship was prophesied to end at the appearance on the scene of a specific promised one. At that time the biological heirs would end and the inheritance of the Kingdom would be extended to all the people of all nations, tribes, and tongues of the world i.e. the gentiles. This would happen when the reigning Davidic King, 'Abdu'l-Baha would be deprived of a living biological heir and turn to the law of adoption to place an heir on the throne after His passing thus fulfilling this long established prophecy recorded in Genesis 49:10 as such:

"The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come;"

DNA is completely irrelevant in the here and now and the historical records are absolutely complete with regard to Baha'u'llah and all those before Him having sat upon the throne of King David. The genealogical history has been thoroughly and meticulously preserved and pieces that were heretofor kept hidden either by happenstance or by design have been uncovered and the outline of it, having been painstakingly researched, compiled and ressurrected can be found in it's original and most perfect form here:

//www.uhj.net/genealogy/genealogy-of-christ.h...

I don't see KPS59 as a threat at all

I invited KPS59 here. We're just having a discussion, bro. And I know what the RAMBAM says about all this; and you and I both know that Maimonides was totally ambivalent on the whole Maschiach stuff in any case.

BTW what are your views on the RAMBAM's son, Abraham? He considered himself a Jewish Sufi and praised the Iranian  Neo-Zoroastrian/Neoplatonic Sufi Shihabuddin Yahya Suhrawardi (the master of illumination) to the heavens. Have you looked at the studies of Oliver Leaman?

A Simple Claim of Genealogy Will Not Suffice

I don't disagree with what you are saying but I also don't have a fear that a simple genealogy will establish the identity of Mashiach Ben David.  (See Rambam, Hilchos Melachim, 11 & 12)  I don't agree with his views yet I don't see his beliefs as a threat.