PARTICIPANT

cheghadr irooni bikar inja ziyadeh

ey mardom mageh shoma kAr o zendegee nadarid ke barAye har maghaleh ke chAp meeshe hatman bAyasti ye ezhAre nazaree konid ??????????
vAy ke che mardome beekri darim.

Many people change

A lot of these Mullahs changed. Those who took the hostages later denounced it and said they hope they had never done it. Others were part of the revolutionary guard and decided the country is going in the wrong direction so they changed course. JJ who started this website used to grow a long beard and run checkpoints with his G-3 rifle! heck even Khalkhali turned to reform movement. Although I'm glad he died before people would associate reform with a dirty word. When did this Islam become such a violent religion? we were all raised as a muslim and even pounded our chests on Ashoura and never thought to kill someone else or say Sunnis should be killed. We had Islamic religious studies as part of our schooling during Shah right? It's not until Khomeini started killing the disidents and Osama advocating terror that we now talk about Islam does this and does that. I wish people in Iran learn from the mistake of electing Ahmadi and participate in the next election and select a moderate or reformer and NOT wait for 300 years or even another 4 years to decide what to do. Islam is just a religion and as you said Christian shed enough blood in their time before talking this week about "Jews to be 'perfected'". There are people who use the religion to wage war or degrade others. The worst horrors in mankind's history was made in the name of religion and it includes ALL religions, not just Islam. That includes today.

We can learn from the past 1400 years Einollah.

We can learn from the past 1400 years, so that we won't make the same mistakes again, and that is how we can make a difference!!!
We can also learn from the experiences of other countries. This is something that is amazingly difficult for Iranians to do and a lot of them insist on making their own mistakes and usually at high costs.
How long did it take Europe to get rid of radical Christianity as a ruling force in their societies?? Without getting into details, it started very slowly in the 1600s and it took well over 300 years.
And who is talking about a "royal blood" ruling Iran?? I have said in my previous comments that it is the choice of Iranians to choose the leaders and the government without any interference by anyone. This is part of democracy. So even if they choose a bi-sexual teenager, or leftists, or even Islamists, then it is their choice.
Einollah you still say "some of these reformers are talking about the separation of Mosque and the state"!!!
How can you believe this again from these people?? Islam by its teachings does NOT allow you that. So if you are a turbanned mollah, then you are not following Islam if you say this!!
Islam says "follow my way or I will kill you". Where does Koran say that, "if you want, you can separate religion and government"?? It specifically tells you how to live your life and it sets out severe punishments if you don't follow them. There is no room for deviation from its rules. Islam forbids you to reform it.
This is the main problem. And the sooner the Iranian understand this, the sooner they can become democratic and prosper.
In a democratic society, people are free to practice their religion but NOT to impose their beliefs unto everyone else.
The Mullahs ARE the problem and don't waste your time trying to prop up one or the other of them.

No way out

If "This has been the case for the last 1400 years." then what difference does it make what we do? or the new generation for that matter. Whatever we do they are going to mess it up again, right? Khatami is no Gandi or Nelson Mandella. These 2 articles are about his rise and fall. Sort of like getting excited and then getting soft ;-) There will be other candidates and we should support them. Maybe he'll take some Viagra and it'll have a lasting side effect. Every year that goes by and what people experience is a lesson for future. This whols IRI is a lesson for future generations. We never had such a screw up of a Govt. So once this one goes, there will always be a bad lesson for future generations to NOT follow. Some of these reformists are already talking about separation of "Mosque" and State. Eventually one day we'll get close to it. There is always a tomorrow. Hold on to the good things and dispose of the bad. Good things being democracy and holding elections. That's a start and a step forward. What? you want Ahmad Mirza again?! You want to be ruled by some teenage bi-sexual who sounds and looks funny, because he has royal blood?

Midwesty

You are right that Iran does not need any nore bloodshed. Far too much has been shed already. Too many deaths and too many executions. I have lost a close member of my family who had never had anything to do with politics, so I should know.
But the point I am making is that reform and change will not come from the Mollahs. Their teachings and Koran does not allow them do things radically differently. lf somebody comes in to reform things a little, then at some stage in the future another Islamist will come in and turn things back. This has been the case for the last 1400 years. Since the Arab invasion of Persia, every time there was some progress and Iran moved to soften some of the unsavoury Islamic rules, then a new religious ruler takes power and turns the progress back. Islamic rules do not allow for changes. They are not there to be changed as and when somebody wants them to. Therefore true, meaningful and lasting reform will not come from Khatami, any Akhond or Islamists. So don't get played in by them and don't waste your time pursuing this route. You won't get results and it won't last, and you already have some experience of it first hand.
The true change has a good chance of coming from the young in Iran at the moment. They neither have the twisted revolutionary mentality and nor are they particularly keen on religion. They just want to join the modern world and live a normal life. We also have pressure groups of different types such womens, certain unions, human rights etc. These put together can help bring about changes that will not get rolled back in the future.
There will be lots of set backs like these guys putting Emad Baghi back in prison, simply because he wants to advocate the practice of human rights in Iran to the same standards as the European countries. Is he asking too much?? I don't think so. And he used to be one of revolutionaries with extensive family ties to the religious ilk.
I would suggest we use our time and energy to help people like him and some of the other movements. Not Khatami.
We have to encourage the Iranians to understand and accept the point that religion should be something personal and under NO circumstances its laws should be the basis for the regulations in a modern society.
It is something very difficult for the Iranians to accpet as they are not used to it. But there is no other way. And people like us who know better should talk about it all the time until gradually we make headways.

Rules

You play by the rules and get somewhere and help wome people in the meantime. Of course Khatami and the rest of IRI have plenty bad but as Midwesty said we've paid a dear price to get even here, which by the way is better than the rest of the middle east, including Israel who is supposed to be the 51st state. Who wants to be worried about suicide bombers in a bus or constantly worry about rocket attacks or going to another war every day? Nothing is going to get better if you forget about what you have. We have something.

Thanks Midwesty

Thank you Midwesty for your kind comments.

By the way guyts cool off with this video and don't take life too seriously ;0)

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JtyeG9bgBQ&feature=bz303

KHATAMI?

khatami was nothing. You guys are forgeting that when he took over office, there were stoning taken place.
Khatami and the rest..have never ever shown interest in people's welfare. AND Never Will.MKO is just a puppet for who ever give them a buck.

The Fair Judge

Please refer to my writings. I believe we have passed the point of return. In addition of huge material loss we have lost our dearest young talents in executions, wars, and exiles. We've paid a dear price to get here and we got to make this work. Evolution is the answer, the change from within.

Einollah

MKO has never been a political movement. They've started as a militia group and styed the same till now.

I cannot believe you guys......

Midwesty and Einollah appear to be intelligent people and from what I have read in their comments, they seem to be decent people with good intentions for Iran and the Iranians. But I cannot believe that they are so easily being played by the mullahs!!!
You guys talk about the election processes in Iran and the disqualification of prospective candidates as if it was legitimate!!!!
Nobody has the the right to tell people who their choices are for candidates. The whole purpose of an election is for people to choose whoever they want!!! Good or bad. Left or right. Young or old. Man or woman. It is their choice and nobody else's.
When you start to disqualify one candidate or another, then the whole election and its legitimacy goes down the drain.
This is just one of the problems in Iranian politics at the moment. They need reforms everywhere.
Iran has very deep problems in its systems and Khatami is no Gandhi or Mandella or even Gorbatchev. He is a true Akhond with all its backward and superstitious beliefs. His basic beliefs are no different to that of Khomeini or Khalkhali or Khamenei, or indeed any fundamentalist islamist.
When are you guys going to see the mentality of the mullahs for what it really is?? Have they not shown enough of themselves in the past 30 years for you to make a balanced judgement about their actions, visions, and future intentions??
So don't get played by these guys and their sideshows. You are too smart for this.

How about M&M?

I'm willing to give anyone a pass and not call them "traiter" except Maryam and Masoud. If you know enough about their history, including Masoud's sexcapades (that we know of in his own publications) with his revolutionary ex-wife and then his "comrades"'s ex-wife who was killed in a gun fight with IRI and then Bani-Sadr's daughter and then Maryam his current wife who is by the way the ex of another "comrade" and I love you Saddam and kidnapping teenagers in US, Canada and Europe and taking them to Camp Ashraf in the middle of the Iraqi desert that Red Cross has exposed, then selling Iraqi's themselves to Saddam's Fedayeen to be tortured and maimed or tortue them themselves, what would you call them? How would you define them? Midwesty you give M&M a definition and I'll hear you.

Dr. Kadivar

First of all I admire your last name. It's one of those ancient and original Iranian names that we don't see it around as often as we should. Also it is flattering to me to see you've been reading my mumbling words. I am sure some of these stuff don’t make sense to some people but I thought since it was important to me it might be the same to others from the same generation including the young and second generation Iranians to have a different perspective about Iran. I barely know the Shah and I stay away from him as you've never seen me to criticize him. However I believe in one thing. In Iranian politics, there is no traitor. Everybody that we harshly and viciously criticize has had his/her own nationalistic reason in his/her stupid/brilliant way to do what he/she thought it was the best for the country at the time. From Reza Shah to his son, the Shah, Mosaddegh, Khomeini, Khatami, Kha...all have severed consciously or unconsciously Iran's purpose. Iran has used all of them to beautify herself every day and every moment. So, why should I care whose taking credit or the blame when I am drunk in her majestic beauty?   

baleh, for me too..

Ahvazi took the words right out my mouth, i was going to say it was that 99 when he lost me. He shouldn't have ran for 2nd term either. Khob digeh. Your last paragraph is so on point, thank you midwesty.

Boro To Ham Deegeh ...

Do we have to see Pashmo Sheesheh two times in a row ?

Kidding, Midwest Jan dunno how old you are but well I knew a better era than Khatami and the old gang whom you find cool. Not saying it was democratic but the level of freedom people enjoyed had no comparison to this "Khatami" era.

Anyway I suppose its a generation thing.

Don't mind me criticizing you, its nothing personal I am just giving my sincere impression. ;0)

best,

DK

Khatami

Midwesty: great analysis. For me personally the fall of Khatami came in July 1999 when he should have gone to where the university students were protesting and some had been killed and showed solidarity with them, and atleast said I hear you and support you. But he chose not to.

Bad Company

Yes that's true those around him overestimated their new found power and thought they could bypass conservatives. They always say be careful of bad company. I didn't know his brother was his evil twin. I knew he was being targeted by Guradian Council and got disqualified but didn't know he was that stupid. Looks like he deserved it and doesn't seem like he is going to get another chance. They don't give you second chances in Iran. Once you are "disqualified" your career goes down the drain! especially your political career. What about Moein? I know he lost to Ahmadi but was he with Reza Khatami's gang? probably not much since he became a candidate. Good articles on Khatami era.