HORMUZ

Mammad jaan, a few more thoughts

The IRI came to power on three principles of freedom, independence, and Islamic Republic.
I think we can agree they failed miserably on delivering freedom. 30 years later, despite committing horrendous atrocities, they are yet to have their Islamic way with universities, women’s appearance, and eradicating religious minorities (Sunni kurds, Suni Baluchis, Suni Arabs, Bahaies). Iranians have thus far been able to resist and fight back. Their election are a sham and more of a puppet show (kheimeh shab baazi) than anything else.

There remains the issue of independence which a lot of people have picked up on. First and foremost the question begs to be asked whose independence are we talking about, the IRI's, as an imposing governing body over the Iranian nation, or the independence of the Iranian nation governed by their elected officials? The two would be the same if you believed that the IRI was truly the chosen governing body by Iranians. If independence means not being responsive to any code of ethic or any international governing body or code of conduct then yes the IRI, as a governing body, has achieved that, but Iranians are suffering the consequences.

You say that you would support who ever defended Iran’s national interest as indicated in this statement:

“the national interests of any nation are, BY THEIR VERY DEFINITION, those that are INDEPENDENT OF THE POLIITICAL SYSTEM THAT RULES THAT NATION. For example, wise production of oil and gas, their wise consumption, their wise export, and trying to generate added values by, for example, petrochemical products, are part of Iran's national intersts, regardless of whether Iran is ruled by a monarchy, or by a people's democratic republic, or by whatever. I have no qualm whatsoever about defending such rights, even if I am accused of being an IRI supporter which, God only knows, I am not”).

So we can agree that Iran’s national interest is in “wise production of oil and gas”. This production capability has gone down and not up, and as a result Iran is dependent on importing oil and gas. I don’t know what you mean by “wise consumption” but suffice it to say my father-in-law is a professor in Iran and has not had bread for the past two weeks, and when he finally found a bakery that was selling bread, it was rationed and only one loaf per person at 300 toomans. In general, consumption rate is at the poverty level in Iran. My mother, a retired teacher, who passed away last weekend, was not able to buy fruits on her meager retirement wages, most of which paid her rent, and only bought dried nuts once a year for her haftseen. As for exports and the before and after effects of the revolution we talked about this in our last discussions in this thread

//iranian.com/main/singlepage/2008/1943-t...

I don’t think you can honestly claim that Iran has much of an export industry and petrochemical products are being imported. In that thread, I also talked about how almost 50% of the oil revenue is being handled and manipulated by the 15% khodies and their “charitable institutions” for personal gain. As for national interests, what is more important than the national identity of a nation, its history, its language, and its culture to keep it united and independent? Do you believe the IRI has accomplished that? Iranians are now ommateh Islam, Persian has been and continues to be discussed to be replaced by Arabic and any reference to a pre Islamic Iran is slowly being erased by this regime, and if the collective memory of the people erodes away then overtime that identity will be lost. If it hasn’t yet, thanks are due to the brave and proud Iranian nation and not the IRI. So what independence are we talking about?

Independence, in an absolute sense, does not exist and it would require a nation to be completely self sufficient, militarily, politically, financially, socially and morally to be completely independent. Would you consider Japan and South Korea independent or dependent? Is Germany dependent or independent? All three countries have U.S troops on their soil. Are they slave states? In fact are any of the European nations, independent? The European Union is socially and economically inter-dependent, and when it comes to military defense of gigantic proportions, dependent on the U.S. Before the Iranian revolution the world was divided into two spheres, East and West. Iran, like about 50% of the European nations, was aligned with the West, to prevent being gobbled up by the East, which has stripped independence off of the other 50% of the European nations. Iran, I believe, had the same sort of dependence/inter-dependence before the revolution, as it has now after the revolution. The dependency then was on the West and in particular on the U.S. to provide state of the art military support and security for Iran, and now the dependency is on decrepit military equipment and outdated technology from Russia, North Korea and China. The fact that Iran has a proxy army in South Lebanon, paid for by the petro-dollars snatched from the Iranian populace, which is struggling to survive, does not make it independent. IRI by making the rest of the world feel insecure is driving Iran ever closer to a head to head clash with the West. That is as much independence as a juvenile misfit in society can claim to have. I think you have to shift your focus away from the semantics of dependence to those of inter-dependence, which today’s world necessitates. As long as Iran is a dictatorial Theocracy and a misfit in the
world community then it can never be independent, and only dependent on the mercy of the world community at large.

With regards,

Anonymous4now and Farhad Kashani

Dear both:

Thank you for responding. I appreciate you taking the time and caring enough to write back.

I was only trying to say that there are all sorts of ways that one can think about what has happened and analyze it. In order to do that, we need to gather as much information as we can.

We all have our political views. As soon as we admit that, our views are necessarily biased in the direction of our fundamental beliefs. But, that does not mean that, as soon as we hear about such incidents, we should jump to conclusion purely based on our beliefs. Even criminals can be right once in a while.

I did not say that the US did not have the right to open fire on Iranian boats. Clearly, they cannot take any chances. But, I do believe that the presence of the US forces in the Persian Gulf is illegal, aggressive, and destabilizing.

I am not an expert on warfare, let alone on asymmetric warfare. I just speculated on why Iran was doing this. The fact that Admiral Mullin also immediately pointed this out and expressed his and the US concerns only goes to show that it can be a potent way. As I said, in a war game in 2002 based on such a warfare, the US had been defeated.

At the same time, the US uses all sorts of ways to gather intelligence on Iran and its forces. Therefore, regardless of how we feel about the IRI, it has a legitimate right to do likewise. The fact the the US forces, considered by the IRI as its foe, are so close to Iran's territory only makes gathering intelligence more urgent. It is not difficult to imagine this. Now, this is separate from believing whether what the IRI did was a good or bad way of doing so. None of us is an expert, nor are we in their shoes.

You both say I defend the IRI. I do not. In this column you find many true IRI supporters who defend it blindly. I do not. I often point out their crimes, and my family and I have been hurt by the IRI greatly.

I do defend what I consider to be in IRAN's NATIONAL INTERESTs. As you both know, the national interests of any nation are, BY THEIR VERY DEFINITION, those that are INDEPENDENT OF THE POLIITICAL SYSTEM THAT RULES THAT NATION. For example, wise production of oil and gas, their wise consumption, their wise export, and trying to generate added values by, for example, petrochemical products, are part of Iran's national intersts, regardless of whether Iran is ruled by a monarchy, or by a people's democratic republic, or by whatever. I have no qualm whatsoever about defending such rights, even if I am accused of being an IRI supporter which, God only knows, I am not.
One last point: Note how President Bush in every speech he gave in his tour of the Middle East, used THE GULF, instead of the Persian Gulf.

Thank you again.

Dear Mammad

Thank you for answering my questions, although you have left room for more questions.

You charged that I should “Put things in their context” but failed to show me what was addressed to you, that was out of context.
Then you made the assertion that this juvenile behavior and shrewdness are contradictory. To the contrary, Shrewd does not imply higher intelligence, but can mean streetwise and cunning smart, which are often characteristics of juvenile behavior. The juvenile mind feels invincible and hence commits to suicidal acts. There is nothing contradictory there.

Then you made a reference to the “Filipino Monkey” which further assists my argument that people such as pourkesali are basing a silly argument on innuendo and the accent theory to accuse the US of unnecessary aggression, and you are helping him fan the flames of speculation and hyperbolae, with the response titled “To those who judge in a haste” to which I responded. If you really wanted to be objective then you would leave the possibility open that the IRI wanted to create an International incident, such as this, for the domestic consumption, and rely on people like pourkesali to conduct the smear campaign for them.

You worte:
“The USS Port Royal has a crew of 360. It carries missile launchers, artillery and torpedoes. The USS Ingraham with a crew of 215 carries torpedoes, artillery, and two helicopters (one of which was flying over the Iranian boats). The USS Hopper has 350 0n board armed with anti-ship cruise missiles, torpedoes, and artillery.
How about the Iranian side: 5 small but fast boats, each with 4 men, armed with semi-automatic weapons, and nothing else, very close to Iran's territorial waters. WOW!
Which side is more dangerous, and has more fire power? One side has 925 soldiers armed with the most modern arms, the other side 20 men armed with semi-automatic guns that you can find in any US home!”

Doesn’t this imply that you think this is much ado about nothing, and the US is overplaying the situation to its advantage because of its aggressive ambitions, hence betraying your subjectivity and bias. You see, I want to be objective and be suspicious of both sides, but on the American side lies become uncovered sooner or later because the system allows for self scrutiny, so in the information age the decrepit conspiracy theories of the past don’t hold much water. Whereas, the IRI, can lawfully and morally lie and call is as Khode’a. I would be more cautious to jump on that band wagon to make as much noise as pourkesali is making.

You further elaborate that you think this may have been a military maneuver by the passdars to see how close they could get to the Americans. Then why respond to this silly article with claims based on pure conjecture with your analysis, mentioned above?
If you believe in asymmetric warfare, and that this could have been such an exercise, then the US Navy would have been in the right to blow them to smithereens. Then why argue about whether the recording was real or not?

Asymmetric warfare works in the case of post war Afghanistan and Iraq, because the enemy is not identifiable and is not an organized army. The IRI spent 8 years fighting Saddam and ended the war in a stalemate. The US demolished the Iraqi armed forces in less than 3 weeks. Do you seriously believe that if the passdars blow up one or two ships by suicide missions or otherwise, that the IRI will last to see the day after? This behavior is suicidal and juvenile!

A Scottish thinker once said “It is such a gift to see yourself the way others do”. How do you think the rest of the world sees this behavior? What was your honest first reaction when you first heard it? Put aside the fact that you are an Iranian and you have a bias in favor of the IRI. Did it seem anything but suicidal and juvenile?

Lastly, I am honored that there are accomplished Iranians such as yourself who are helping other Iranians, especially in the area of education. But my point was sympathizing with the masses who are suffering not only political repression but economical and social repression. Now that your are enjoying the fruits of freedom you should not take your mind off of those remaining behind. When you, so subjectively, go to the defense of the IRI, be it on military grounds, or on material advancement (as in our last discussion), think about the indignity Iranians have to live through every day of the week, while we enjoy the freedom we so take for granted. You left Iran “for social and/or economical reasons". Doesn’t that imply that an accomplished scientist like you could not have realized political, academic, social and economical advancement up to his potential and had to leave to attain those advancements, elsewhere? Social and economoical repression are just as important as political oppression. Can you imagine what that repression feels like for those who are not fortunate enough to have the means to escape it? That’s what I meant by comradery.

XerXes, here is why you’re

XerXes, here is why you’re wrong: You think IRI represents Iran, and we shouldn’t criticize it because it might give the feeling that there is something wrong with our country, and we’ve been taught to think there is nothing wrong with our country, and if there is something wrong, then we should blame someone else, we start with Arabs and end with the U.S. U.S gets the more blame, because its most powerful, and it represent something we want to be like, but weren’t successful in becoming like. So in typical traditional Iranian fashion, we will bash it, blame it and character assassinate it. I’m right, you know why: cause I’m not like the above. You called me khodforokhteh, I think there is nothing worst than being khodforokhteh to tyranny, oppression and culture of death. Hopefully you’re not one of those. Payandeh baad Iran.

Mammadjaan, appreciate your

Mammadjaan, appreciate your reply. Trust me I don’t engage in personal attacks, I’m a victim of many of those every time I post an article! But I always say let those hypocrites show their true faces and how much they really believe in tolerance. It appears you’re the one who is going back to the typical Iranian mentality and character-assassinating me by calling me a monarchist! I believe you’re analysis is very typical and traditional Iranian style based on pessimism, looking only at half glass full and conspiracy theory oriented. Trust me , Mammad, I wish you knew how much I know about history and politics. I not only am very familiar with Iran’s history, but with many other countries in the world. Anyways, here are my responses to your points: 1- I’m not sure if you met or spent time with a Balochi, Hormozgaani or even Khuzestani Iranian. But I would highly urge you to either meet one in person if you can or do research to find out how different their culture and accent and language is from other Iranians. And I would really wish you hear them speak English. Even in India the way a Kashmiri or Panjabi speaks English is very different than a person from Kerala. 2- Starting a war in historical periods was determined on who fires the first shot. In modern times, it’s very different. I have no doubt in my mind that it was the provocation of Khomeini regime of Saddam and the promise of exporting the revolution, starting from Iraq, the second most important shite country after Iran, that led crazy Saddam Hussain who was scared of losing his thrown (A promise made by Khomeini himself) to fire the first shot. The war lasted 8 years, the longest war in the 20th century. It led to killing and injury of close to 1 ½ of young Iranians and the near destruction of Iran’s infostructure. Even under this regime brutal censorship, more and more voices are growing and getting louder asking for an explanation of why the war lasted so long. Even the regime is unable to come up with a good reason so far. Most everyone in Iran, intellectual and populous, agree that the war was prolonged by the IRI in order to crush any domestic opposition under the name of security. I have no doubt in my mind that the entire truth will come out one day. The 1991 gulf war was sanctioned by the U.N, and if you gonna say U.N is a U.S “puppet”, how come that puppet didn’t give an approval vote for the U.S in 2003. And how come it takes many anti U.S position, as it should if they’re legitimate, on daily basis (Including calls to end Cuba sanction, resolutions condemning Israel, among others…). This regime has been beating on the war drum for the last 30 years since day 1. Speaking of history, just look at the French revolution early days. They had the same rhetoric spreading their revolution, remember what happened? All countries around it ganged up on it and attacked France. We are not even saying whether France should’ve or shouldn’t’ve tried to export its revolution. We’re talking about wars. 3- When did I say Carter was responsible? I’m, along with few other Iranians on this site, are always arguing for the fact that people of the society should take responsibility for their actions. I said many times it was Iranians, and solely Iranians, to blame to the 1953 coup and 1979 revolution. 4- Neocons, are only one group out of many, including liberals, conservatives, moderates, socialists, right wingers, and religious factions, that construct U.S political arena. As should a healthy democracy be. I wish you do the reading and I really wish you look at the big picture. I’m not sure when we are going to start looking at the big picture and stop using clichés and populist slogans. But if we gonna get our country back and be able to build it back, we need to think objectively . 5- Yes, Iran arranged the referendum, just like Indonesia arranged one for East Timour, the U.N supervised it, and Bahrain got its independence. That’s a fact ! Please do your research. I said that was unfortunate, Shah shouldn’t’ve even arranged a referendum. 6- Mammad jaan, this is a new one I heard about the 50-50 never applying in “practice”..what does that even mean? There is a clear treaty singed between the USSR and Iran stating is a 50-50 share. The new republics need to get their share out of USSR 50% share, not Irans. That’s not only what the treaty says, it seems to me is commons sense also ! 7- I am simply amazed that you are not aware of the treaties with China and Russia. Here is what I would suggest, don’t listen to what I say, how about what themselves say, even under this brutal censorship, ,,go to aftab-yazd.com and try to read it as much as you can. It gives you a first hand perception of how this regime and the people in Iran are suffering. Much often, it talks about these treaties. I’m simply amazed. I know you are a knowledgeable person. Also , U.S is not expanding its law to international arena, you’re trying to fabricate facts here, U.S is applying the law to Iran only and companies that deal with Iran. Simple. What do you suggest a country do when faced by an enemy like the IRI? Do you want U.S to just stand still while it’s gets intimidated and threatened by a fascist regime every day? Plus, its not just the U.S imposing sanctions, it’s the U.N my friend! Countries like France, England and Germany also. I think the whole world should impose sanctions on the IRI regime in a way that doesn’t affect Iranian people but weakens the grip the regime has on our country. 8 – What do you think are being said in those 2 treaties? As far as Azerbaijan goes, it clearly says it belongs to Russia for a period of 99 years and after that it returns to Iran. Of course I’m not saying Iran under any regime should claim it , but if you’re suggesting it should claim Bahrain, then it should claim Azerbaijan too. What the hell are you talking about then? 9- We agree on that. 10- I simply disagree with you on what you say Khomeini thought. Here is what didn’t matter for him : human life. And now in Iran, as result of is legacy, there is one thing, among others but most importantly, that doesn’t have any value : human life. Statistics: My friend, let me not name anyone, but the head of the Komeeteh in a big Iranian city, not Tehran, fled the country later and I got to know him, he said, and there is now way he would lie to me, because he had no reason to, only in that town from the periods of 1979-1986 when he was there and saw everything, 19,000 people were executed. That’s just one city within 7 years. You do the math. Again, I’m just waiting for the day that these numbers become official. Also, the people that fled Iran are, according to the regime’s own words, some of our best and brightest. Yes, other countries have brain drain also, maybe even more than us, but with us , it was a single incident that triggered a mass migration. It wasn’t over time like Chinese, Indians, or others. Within 2-3 years, millions fled. So, do the math again. Mammad, please lets start busting that bubble our society created around us and think outside the box. Lets clear our head, lets think objectively, lets look at the big picture, lets look at what happened to our country, I mean under what logic can you blame so many historical disastrous conditions and norms in Iran , a country of 70 million with 2500 years, on a country of 200 years old only? We had these problems for centuries. Yes we were a great civilization, but it started to decline with the rise of religious fanatic forces from the mid Ghajar period. Science, education, arts, infostructure, creativity,…all went down the toilette since they became influential. Lets for once in our history thin outside the box, and we shall see the truth.

Put things in their context, Anonymous4now

Dear Anonymous4now:

Thank you for taking the time to write. With all due respect, you either do not want to put things in their proper context, or simply forget about this important aspect of any rational discussion.

I respond to a few of your more substantive points. But before doing that, I note that the US Navy acknowledged yesterday that the voice that made the threats in the Persian Gulf was not from the boats and could have been from a variety of sources, which supports my earlier contention. To give you a headstart on your research, if you want to do so, Google search "Filipino Monkey" to see what you find about the possible source of the threat. Now about your points:

1. The question of English, accent, and people like Masoumeh Ebtekar: Of course, there are many people in Iran who speak excellent English. But,

(a) Such people cannot be, and are not, sailors or simple Paasdaar, in a boat in the middle of the Persian Gulf. Put things into their proper context. We are talking about a military force which, aside from its high command and similar to any other military force in the world (including the US), its rank and file are made of low-educated young men. That is why I asked in my last comment whether a simple Paasdaar can speak fluent English.

(b) You make some statements, and then later on you contradict yourself. You say, quite correctly, that, "The IRI is quite capable of being shrewd." I agree, but then the same "shrewd" system does not do anything recklessly, without some calculations of its cost and benefit. Why would they provoke the US, when they know that they will simply be overwhelmed by the US fire power? So, your comment that, "this is juvenile behavior" does not make sense, and also contradicts your statement about the IRI being shrewd.

(c) You asked a good question: "What do you think the intent for this silly act was?" I am not in the heads of Paasdaaraan, nor can I read their minds. But I can think of at least one reason which, when viewed from the IRI perspective, makes sense.

Have you heard of asymmetric warfare? This is the military strategy that the IRI has taken ever since 2001. In asymmetric warfare a weaker country does not take on a powerful country in a classic military battle, because it knows that it will be defeated. Rather, it takes on that nation asymmetrically. For example, it overwhelms a destroyer in the sea NOT by another destroyer, but by a huge number of small fast boats that carry explosives.

In 2002, the US carried out a war game based on such a scenario, and its forces were quickly defeated by an unnamed "enemy" in the Persian Gulf (read Iran) who was following such a strategy (there is much about it on the internet). Ever since, the US has been worried about this. Admiral Michael Mullin, Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff of the US, talked about this the other day and said that, this incident is exactly in the strategic direction that Iran has taken its military. You see, the military people see this in the proper context.

The brain behind this in Iran is Major General Mohammad Ali Jafari, the commander of Paasdaaran. He has studied this issue deeply and extensively, has watched the Afghan and Iraq wars, and has taken Iran's armed forces in this direction. He was appointed the Paasdaaran commander a few months ago, just when the US rhetoric was heating up, and the likelihood of war was getting stronger. When he was appointed, many in the Pentagon got worried (read the internet). He is called Iran's response to General David Petreaus (read the internet). He is indeed a shrewd guy, and highly educated (he is an architect by education). Unlike what the opposition thinks, the IRI does have some very shrewd people. Otherwise, how could they survive in a large country in one of the most volatile but strategic regions in the world? One must have rational understanding of its foe in order to be able to devise ways of getting rid of the foe, or at least get it to change its behavior.

So, while I do not why this incident happened, I find it quite conceivable that this was simply a test on Paasdaaran's part to see how close they can get before they are directly threatened and shoot at. As a scientist, it is my job to consider all plausible scenarios, instead of attributing them to "juvenile behavior."

The point of all of this is: One can allow his/her hatret of the IRI colour his/her views, but one can also try to think rationally. As a scientist, I choose the latter.

4. USS Cole had nothing to do with Iran. In case of USS Roberts in 1988, no evidence was ever presented that the mine was Iran's.

5. Regarding economic/social imigrants vs political exiles: I am not opposed to any Iranian, or any human being for that matter, to move. It is a natural and human instinct to move somewhere else, where the conditions at one's present locations are not good, or at least desirable.

But, the point was: There is a difference between people who decide to leave Iran because they think that they will have better lives elsewhere, and political exiles who, due to undemocratic system of Iran, or its intolerance of some religious minority, cannot stay there. But the other important point is: While the brain drain imposed on Iran is catastrophic, it is by no means unique. A huge problem that rich countries have everywhere is mass migration.

6. You asked, "where is my sense of comradery?" This is an unfair question, because you do not know the first word about me. Over the past 24 years, I have helped close to 40 talented Iranian students to be admitted by a leading US university with full scholarship to get their doctoral degree. Some went back to Iran, some stayed. Both groups made their own decisions based on their free choice. This is only one aspect of what I have done, which should also answer your rhetorical question, "Why can't you wish the same opportunities ..."

And, finally, I did not leave Iran because I wanted a better life in the West, nor did I not go back because I could not. I chose to do so, but do whatever I can to help Iranians, while reserving my rights to have any opinion of the IRI. Helping Iranians and Iran is not tantamount to helping the regime.

Thank you again.

Saddam, one of the most

Saddam, one of the most atrocious dictators and the killer of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis is now the darling of the advocates of the regime, to score points against the U.S. Where is your sense of wrong and right? How broken are your moral fibers? In the same sentence you claim that the IRI has committed atrocious acts you go to its defense, to justify your hatred of the Great Satan.

The sequence of events described by Anonymous22222 is the exact memory of events I have, as I lived through them, regardless of who else has written about them. The fact that there are fabricators around (I don’t know this Taheri Guy so commenting about him would be hearsay) does not change my memory of these events, no matter how hard you try to advance the fabrication theory.

Arezu; you write:

“I think realities are turned upside down. Since 2003, the Pentagon has drawn up detailed and precise plans for U.S. sponsored attacks on both Iran and Syria. Israel and NATO are partners in this military adventure.”

Why do you think that is? Could it be that the IRI broke all international laws and accepted protocols and invaded an embassy and took diplomats as hostages? Could it be that one of the most wanted terrorists, Abu Nidal, with a bunch of other Palestinian Abu’s were in Tehran on the first night of the revolution to help organize a security force known as the passdaran? (He was in Iran until 2002 when he went into Iraq to assassinate Saddam, but Saddam sniffed him first and killed him). Could it be because Iran funded Imad Mughnia to found the Hezbollah terrorist group and blow up the US Marine barracks in Lebanon in one of the first acts of suicide bombing? Or that Imad Mugnia still lives in Iran or that he was instrumental, together with ghassem Suleimani the commander of the Qods brigade, in training the Hezbollah army in Lebanon? Could it be because the murderer of the political refugee Tabatabai is a free man in Iran, and so are many other assassins of political dissidents? Could it be that, against all international protocol, the IRI as the signatory to the NPT has played a game of cat and mouse and refused to let international inspectors inspect its nuclear research fascilities?
You are either extremely biased or not old enough to remember the events leading to the Iran-Iraq war. Khomeini wanted to export his revolution to other countries, and his first stop was going to be in Karbala. Saddam, whose regime depended on the stability he had created based on fear, could not withstand the external pressure from Iran. The West afraid of the expansion of this Islamic revolution gave him the blessing to attack. Although it is correct that the Iranian revolution was of Iranian doing and not instigated, or staged by a foreign power, although heavily influenced by the leftists, you have to remember that Carter, having realized that the Shah’s days were numbered, tried to approach Khomeni and give him and his revolution credence, but Komeini refused and then blessed the hostage taking. Reagan despite all the tough talk was secretly dealing with them to get the hostages released in return for arms. The Israelis thought that they were dealing with the lesser of the two evils and helped Iran. In 1982, Saddam offered to stop the war and Saudi Arabia offered to pay 70 Billion Dollars in war reparation to Iran, but Khomeini refused, believing he could finish off Saddam. The West, continued helping Saddam since IRI did not want to make mends and had one goal in mind; export of its revolution. Can you seriously blame others for Khomeini’s shortcomings, and ours, for handing over the nation to him?

Mammad; You say:

“We define Iranian accent the” This is hearsay and innuendo. Pure conjecture on your behalf, and those who are in favor of the accent theory. Suffice it to say that Masoumeh Ebtekar, the spokeswoman for the Embassy hostage takers, and later on Khatami’s vice president, was raised in the US and speaks fluent English with no discernable accent. The IRI is quite capable of being shrewd. The IRI acknowledged the incident at first, but down played its significance. Then they denied it and now they have acknowledged it but have their own cinematic version of it. Why are you so ready to explain away the silly actions of a rag tag band of juvenile misfits, with even sillier arguments, and believe so whole heartedly the IRI story? Shouldn't you be cautious about both versions, if you were as objective as you claim to be?
It is the provocation, in International waters that matters. It is the juvenile behavior (much like pretending lifting up your hand to slap someone only to scratch the back of your ear) of throwing boxes into the water, that matters. What do you think the intent for this silly act was? Surely you don't think they had extra boxes they did not know what to do with? Don’t you think the sailor in charge of pulling the trigger would be justified to respond to this provocation, believing it to be self defense? There had been the Mine incident in 1988, the USS Cole suicide bombing of 2000 and the provocation of taking British sailors hostage in an incident that could have been resolved on the spot with verbal exchanges, like it has happened so many other times with other nations.

As I mentioned before, worse than anything else, is the notion of your blind defense of the IRI because of your animosity towards this den of Capitalist bourgeoisie, despite your understanding of the brutality of the regime. How is being forced into exile for political reasons different from being forced out “for social and/or economical reasons"? Surely you did not abandon your birthplace, voluntarily, despite the unlimited opportunities afforded to all to make "social and/or economical" advances? How about those who do not have your means to leave that paradise that you left behind? Where is your sense of comradery? Has it been tarnished by Capitalism? Why can't you wish the same opportunities you have here, freedom of speech and action, economic independence and freedom, and above all living with dignity, for those in Iran, with no Mullah dictating a moral code put down 1400 years ago?

Iranian.com

Iranian.com is probably the only forum on the Internet that self-hating anonymous Iranians gather to hurl insults at one another and a
factual, unbiased expose of a government fabricated lie spun by a domesticated corporate media can come under attack for being a pro IRI piece.

xerexes: Where did you learn

xerexes: Where did you learn your information? Madrasa in Quom? Do you really want us to believe the Arab/islamist conquerers version of history. To do that is to believe the American version what happened to Iraq rather the Iraqis version. Your Madrasa and revisionary schooling has made you into an imbecile with no credibility.

You have sold your soul to Your Islamic/arab masters and have no right to use the Persian name of Xerexes. You belong to the ummah not Iran. You and your ilk have destroyed Iran and will not rest until everyone in Iran speaks Arabic. You're supporting and promoting genocide of Iran and Iranian culture by supporting the criminal IRI. Get a life loser...

xerexes: Where did you learn

xerexes: Where did you learn your information? Madrasa in Quom? Do you really want us to believe the Arab/islamist conquerers version of history. To do that is to believe the American version what happened to Iraq rather the Iraqis version. Your Madrasa and revisionary schooling has made you into an imbecile with no credibility.

You have sold your sould to Your Islamic/arab masters and have no right to use the Persian name of Xerexes. You belong to the ummah not Iran. You and your ilk have destroyed Iran and will not rest until everyone in Iran speaks Arabic. You're supporting and promoting genocide of Iran and Iranian culture by supporting the criminal IRI. Get a life loser...

To: 111

Dear 111:

1. I never resort to name calling. So, I do not know what you are talking about. I only said to Farhad Kashani that he writes out of passion rather than documented facts.

2. I only state the facts as I know them, and a known fact to me is one that is documented by at least 2-3 independent sources. I am a scientist (and extremely well-known at that), and I publish scientific papers in leading science journals. By training and experience when I publish a scientific paper (and I have published nearly 300 of them), we must document everything. So, this is a habit, a result of training, and a result of being a scientist.

3. One can easily do a little research about whatever I state to see whether what I say is correct or not. If one can find any error - well-documented - one can bring it to this discussion, and I'll be only too happy to accept my error, as I, a scientist, will learn something new.

Thank you for reading my comments.

Why Mammad is Right

He is right because he is aware. He has read and will not fall into the Western media tricks. He will try to find facts and accepts when he is wrong. Why Farhad is Wrong? because of the exact opposite than Mammad. He talks from his political/emotional views while mammad talks from historical facts. Arezu is the same. I wish more Iranians learn from these two so we can be more like a developed nations. Many here nag that Iran under IRI is like an Arabic country and act just like the uneducated middle eastern, who thinks the west is the path to freedom and democracy. Rely on yourself, be a Human not an slave. Have a little pride. If you are upset about IRI then educate yourself and find an Iranian way for the future generation to change for better. BE A BIT SELFLESS!! not kiss the American Government ass to come and save you. Khod forukhteh nabaash.

With all due respects

Dear all:

With all due respects, unless we attempt for our own benefit and more importantly for the benefit of Iran and the Iranian people in reading Iranian history in detail from an un-biased perspective we cannot possibly understand the mistakes made in the past or present to be of any help for Iran. Our culture and history is complex; combine this with the inter play of both domestic and foreign forces due to their interests for political and economic reasons and you will see the multi dimensional elements which have impacted Iran throughout its history and its present situation.

Whatever our personal views are; monarchists, anti-monarchy, etc... for once we should put our allegiance to Iran above any leader, ruler and regime. This requires that we forego our own personal prejudices, exaggeration of facts to prove our case, slamming one another for presenting our opinion and bashing Islam because of the current regime.

If we can't do this then unfortunately, all that we speak about in term of "democracy", "freedom", "acceptance" of all people regardless of race, ethnic background, and religious belief are merely words without fully grasping the meaning of these terminologies.

This forum presents us with the opportunity of learning from one another, and uniting as one people for the benefit of our mother land, and the Iranian people.

I have enjoyed reading Farhad Kashani's comments, as he poses questions which require one to respond back with knowledge. In return I have also read Mammad’s responses, and what he has stated is based on facts. Now, if individuals' would like sources to be included in each sentence, it would definitely be helpful. However, whenever I have done so in the past various people have complained about the lengthy comments.

We cannot possibly help Iran, if we cannot first change our own behavior and determine our own weaknesses and lack of in-depth knowledge about Iran.

Mammad: You are just as

Mammad: You are just as guilty of you accuse Farshad of. You have not substantiated or cited one source to back up any of your claims. You're entitled to your opinion but not facts. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to do better than calling someone else ignorant and uninformed while yourself epitomize ignorance and regurgitation of fiction.

Farhad Kashani

Farhad-e aziz:

I admire your passion, although it is misguided. But without meaning any disrespect, you do not know much about history or current events, and what you write is usually based on passion, rather than anything else.

How do you know that the IRI is "my beloved"? How much do you know about me? You do not even know who I am, let alone knowing what I stand for. I have lost family members to the IRI, including my own brother. Let's stop name calling, and just stick to the facts.

I would like to comment on some of your main points. I suggest that you read them very carefully, from the top to bottom, take a walk or rest, before responding, if you choose to do so.

1. We define Iranian accent the way we distinguish from each other an Indian, an Arab, a Chinese, a Turkish, and a European accent, when they all speak English. Certain letters like "kh", "gh" "h-e" and others are pronounced differently by different nationalities, or cannot be pronounced altogether. Have you noticed the way an Indian speaks English, for example?

In addition, do you think that a person who serves with Paasdaaraan can speak as good English as the guy who made the threats? My point was compare that English with that of the Iranian guy shown and heard on the video that was released by the IRI.

Finally, do a Google search with the key words "Fillipino Monkey" to see what you find about the real source of the threat.

2. You say that the true warmongers are the "Islamic fascists in Tehran." How many wars have these guys actually started over the past 29 years? None, zilch, nada, zero, at least as far as the United Nations is concerned. How many wars has the US started over the same period? In the Middle East alone, two. You confuse rhetoric with actual actions.

3. Carter was responsible for the Iranian Revolution? That is just sheer fantasy, repeated by the mornarchists. Because the Pahlavies came to power, or restored to power by foreigners, their supporters think that there is a foreign conspiracy behind everything. Despite all the claims that they make about how glorious Iran and Iranians are, they never give credit to the people for anything. Either a dictor did something, or a foreigner.

Carter spent the 1978 new year's eve in Tehran, and gave a speech in which he praised the Shah, and said, "Iran, under Shah's leadership, is an island of stability." That assured the Shah that Carter was not after him. What happened? 10 days after that trip, the Shah, assured by Carter's speech, ordered publication of that infamous letter, under the pseudo-name, Ahmad Rashidi Motlagh, in the newspaper Aayandehgaan. Given the deep discontent among the population, given that the Shah had totally eliminated the secular opposition, and given that the letter had been aimed at Ayatollah Khomeini, that letter sparked demonstations in Ghom, Tabriz, etc., The rest is history. Read a little history, instead of listening to its fabricated version. There are too many objective analyses of the Revolution.

4. Neocons and the British sailors: Again, you know nothing about the influence of the neocons. These guys actually started penetrating the US government long ago. They, including people like Paul Wolfowitz, were the people around the Democratic Senator from (state of) Washington, Senator Henry (Scoope) Jackson, who had a very hawkish views when it came to foreign affairs. After the 1st Iraq war in 1991, they wanted to do what they did in 2003, but Bush the father did not allow them. Read, read, and read, before expressing opinion about such things.

5. The referendum about Bahrain was the result of secret negotiations between the Shah and Britain, not a true one. Read memoir of Amir Asadollah Alam, the Shah's closest confidante. He says, "Alaahazrat farmoodand, will history judge us as the king who gave Bahrain, part of Iran, away, and I said, do not worry. We (him and Ardeshir Zahedi) have arranged for a referendum." I'll leave it to you to judge.

6. Iran's share of the Caspian sea: Theoretically, you are right about the 50-50 agreement. But, in practice, that never happened. Iran's true share during the Soviet Union era is what it is today: that portion of the sea below and up to a straight line that connects Aastaara to port of Hassan Gholi in Maazandaraan. Yes, Ahmadinejad has acted very poorly, but the issue is not closed yet. Even in Iran there has been a lot of protests.

7. Giving Iran's oil and gas to Russian and China for the next 20 years: This is one of your most absurd statements, which goes to show how much you know. Russia is playing no significant role in Iran's oil and gas industry. China has agreed to develop ONE OIL FIELD - that is right - one (out of 65 fields), the Yaadaavarann field. I know this because one of my expertise (for which I have international reputation) is oil and gas.

Besides, that has happened ONLY because not only the US has imposed total sanctions on Iran's oil and gas industry, but also has forced others, including Japan and Europe, not to participate in the development of Iran's oil and gas fields. And, this is illegal, because not only is there not a UN-mandated sanction against Iran's oil and gas industry, but also because the US has done this through a law approved by the US Congress. No nation can extend its domestic laws to the international arena.

8. Azerbaijan was lent to Russia for 99 years? I do not know what the heck you are talking about. Azerbaijan was separated from Iran by force, as a result of the wars between Iran and Russia, in 1813 and 1828 through the Golestan and Turkmenchai Treaties. Is this the latest "taravoshaat-e maghzi" by monarchists? You people want to rewrite the history completely.

9. Islamic Gulf: yes, Ahmadinejad and his cohorts have talked about it, and they have committed treason by saying so.

10: Ayatollah Khomeini caring about people: You are in such haste to respond that you do not even read what people say carefully and think about it: The point was this: Ayatollah Khomeini recognized that the West was even willing to be condemned internationally over incidents such as the Airbus, in order to stop the war. It had nothing to do with whether he cared or did not care about lives of the people.

Your statistics killed or died under Ayatollah Khomeini's rule are vastly exaggerated. Even one life lost is too many, but one has to be objective. Credible international human rights organizations, such Amnesty International , put the number of exceuted around 30,000 or fewer, not 500,000 that you say.

The number of Iranian soldiers killed during Iran/Iraq war was 270,000 (according to the UN), with another 700,000 injured. Iranians often translate CASUALTY as dead, but it means dead and wounded.

Out of millions of people who have left Iran only a small fraction are true exiles (or, in your language, faraari). The rest have emigrated by their own will, like me, for social and/or economical reasons. We have also had emigration because of religious reasons. For example, Iranian Bahais have been forced to leave because of the reactionary and inhumane policy of the IRI.

But, at the same time, we have mass migration of people everywhere in this world. From Africa and Middle East to Europe; from Latic America to North America; from Islamic countries to places like Australia, and from China and India to the West. So, while the brain drain on Iran is catastrophic, it is not unique in the world.

So, Farhad, although I admire your passion, I find most of your comments without practically any basis, and mostly out of your hatret of the IRI. You can hate the IRI; that is your right. But, do not transform that into hatret for Iran and Iranians.

IRAN WAR: 2008 Election

Daniel

I am a Republican who support Fred Thompson and Mike Huckabee and DO NOT SUPPORT John McCaine. I think that BUSH might steal the next election like Gulf of Tonkin Resolution and begin the next war. It is very possible. MKO is being used as "fear tools" against IRAN. The Monarchists have no support. Who comes next? GOD KNOWS!

Right now, i am so glad the Palestinians and Israelis are building a wall.

PEACE

Xerxes of course I don’t

Xerxes of course I don’t ”hate” Iran. I disapprove of many things that I feel are wrong with our society, and I strongly believe those things are responsible for the situation we’re in now. I do understand that view is not how we typically have been told by our elders and society to think. They have told us we’re perfect and everything that’s wrong in Iran is because of someone else’s fault. And I think exactly that’s what wrong with us. That doesn’t mean I hate us because of it. I like us to fix that. And yes I do hate the IRI. I believe they are the ugly face of our nation. We are a liberal and peace loving people, we have many bad traits also, but we’re only talking about those two. Also, Persian Gulf does not “belong” to Iran or anybody. What gave you that idea? Iran controls parts of it, just like Bahrain, UAE and others do. It also has “international sections” where ships from all countries are free to sail in.

Mammad, answer to point # 4

Mammad, answer to point # 4 : How do you define “Iranian accent”? Do you think all Iranians from different parts of the country, lets say Balochis and Azaris, sound the same when they speak English? Or do you think Tehrani is the only accent in Iran? Point # 7: The true war mongers are the Islamic Fascists sitting in Tehran beating on the war drum for the last 30 years and they came to power when Carter , one of the most pacifist U.S presidents was in power, and he was the first U.S president to get bashed and trashed and his officials taking hostage (unless you’re saying Carter is a so called “Neo Con” also?), Neocons have only been in power for 7 years and their reign gonna end this year. Plus, the incident with British sailors was far bigger because they actually were captured and humiliated. Iranian style, on TV. You cannot compare these two cases.
Furthermore, Bahrain gained independence by a referendum monitored by the United Nations. It is unfortunate, but since it was done by the U.N, little could be done about it. However , let me tell you what your beloved IRI has done, just few examples : 1- they clearly stated recently that Iran’s share of Khazar Sea is only 11% to satisfy Putin. There is treaty signed with the former USSR that clearly states its 50-50. So your beloved IRI gave up 39% of our rights in the Caspian Sea. 2- IRI has signed a treaty with China and Russia pretty much giving control of our oil and gas fields to them for the next 20 years. Many believe that is worse than Turkamanchai and Gulestan treaties. 3- Azerbaijan was loaned, rented if u will, to the Russians during one of those treaties for 99 years. During the IRI era, that 99 year period has ended. I don’t see your beloved Khamanei asking for that territory back. 4- Last week, one of IRI fascist officials, clearly stated we need to change the Persian Gulf name to “Islamic gulf”. In the beginning of the revolution, murderous Khalkhali actually tried to officially do that, but some smart IRI fascist official recognized that would mean political suicide for them so he came short. Finally, all U.S officials call the gulf the Persian Gulf, including that same guy Bush who you hate so much. All your Muslim and socialist brothers call it the Arabian Gulf, including those so called “freedom fighters” like Hezbollah and Hamas whom you like so much. And on another of your postings, based on what logic are you saying that the shutting down of Iranian airbus by U.S warship (which was wrong by all means), was the sole reason for fascist Khomeini to accept 598? Are you saying Khomeini had any regard for human life, and Iranian life? The murderer who is responsible for close to at least 500,000 , if not more, executions, close to 1,000,000 deaths during the war, close to 3,000,000 fleeing the country, imprisonment for millions, would care if an extra 200 Iranians die, regardless by whom? Don’t you think that actions makes U.S look bad only, so why Khomeini feels like he has to suffer for it? I mean it doesn’t make sense.

Arezu, I think the

Arezu, I think the fundamental difference between how me and people like me think and you and people like you think is that you give minimal importance to personal and group responsibility and I give maximum. Meaning, I believe that societies should take responsibilities for the political realities in their country. The only exception to the rule would be foreign invasion, and that’s even arguable and debatable. You believe that foreign powers (lets be honest, U.S) is responsible for very coup, war and revolution in the world. I believe that as history clearly showed, people, if they have willingness, can easily make the difference. Look at our country. The 1953 coups and the 1979 revolution were executed in similar fashions by millions of Iranians marching into the street once for bringing the Shah back and the other time to kick him out. Tell me, what difference in either way U.S weapons that America sold, not “gave”, or U.S intelligence assistant made or could’ve done? Was the Shah able to bomb the protesters with F 14s? Needless to say U.S intelligence assistance wouldn’t able to make a difference against millions of people. And these are historical facts. It happened, its not a projected incident to happen in the future. Also, what do you mean by the “U.S political elite”? Democrats? Republicans? Council on foreign affairs? Neo cons? Liberals? What is this imaginary ultra powerful group that according to you guys exist in the shadows and control everything in the world? Are you saying all U.S administrations from the beginning of this country all follow the same ideology or belong to the same “elite”? You said “The U.S. never acknowledged the IRI from day one and that is where the problem has started ever since. “,, That is not a fact. The U.S did recognize (Recognition as in the international term of countries recognizing newly formed nations or newly forms of government, not in the “recognition” definition we have in our laat and laat baazi culture as in laat groups “respecting” and “recognizing” each other) IRI. So the problem didn’t start there. The actual problem started with the creation of monarchy system in Iran 2500 years ago, leading to the introduction of Islam 1400 years ago and the rise of the religious groups abut 200 years ago, just about when America gained its independence. So the unholy alliance of monarchy and fundamentalist religious force. Since then, those religious groups attempted to establish religious laws and government in Iran. Let me give you some historical names: Jamaal U Deen Asad Abaadi, Modarress, Fazlollah Noori , Kashani and Khomeini. Because of the tyrannical social and political structure of our country, those traditional religious forces, deeply rooted in our society, formed a violent movement and stood against what they believed the regime’s elite were thought to stand for: westernization. And westernization was mirrored in U.S. That’s where the problem started. Ofcourse U.S has made huge mistakes in foreign policy for a long time, but who hasn’t? And we need see what are those mistakes and how they relate to what we are experiencing now, and most importantly, how far does the U.S power go. Simple. –I can never be a monarchist nor do I see the U.S as what you would call a “savior”. I believe that we need to ask for the International community’s support, including the U.S (It is the most powerful country in the world, whether we like it or not), to effectively counter the barbaric regime in Tehran. And if we start to blame the U.S for what is going on in Iran now, then we will not only not gain that support, but we’re misleading ourselves. –As far as the provocation issue, like I said in my previous posting, it started in 1979 by Khomeini’s fundamentalist movement. You’re only going back as far as 2003. Finally, I have to say that I applaud your attention to small details, but lets not forget small details are part of a bigger picture, and small details can always be manipulated, but the bigger picture cannot. And I don’t think you truly look at the big picture. Regards, Farhad.

To: Farhad Kashani

Dear Farhad:

I believe you are smarter than this to ask me questions that you know yourself. It is only your hatred for the IRI which allows you to make such statements. You are surely aware of the Iranian-American relationship for the past 30 years. I don't have to relay it to you.

The U.S. Gov., political and business "elite" lost their beloved Shah and they have yet not been able to recover from it. This is a fact. The U.S. never acknowledged the IRI from day one and that is where the problem has started ever since. Good or bad, whatever the hell IRI is currently the regime in power. The U.S. unfortunately has been committed to the leaders they love, as opposed to having a long term political objective in dealing with countries which will have a more positive impact for the U.S. Under the Shah, the U.S. loyalty was simply to HRH, a love affair that has been deeply missed.

The U.S. used A top down foreign policy which totally disregarded the social and political issues of Iran and its people. When they woke up it was too late, and Iran was already in the midst of a revolution.

Let's not go down a path that you and I know is not going to get anywhere with respect to American interventionist foreign policy in the affairs of countries. Neither you nor I are ignorant; history does not lie!!!

If you want to be un-biased we can speak, if you are just going to hale the Shah as the savior, and America as the knight in white shinning armor there is nothing that I can say that will change your mind.

With respect to the current Iran-US Naval incident in the Persian Gulf; information has been slowly coming out. From everything that I have read from articles published by various professional experts as well as articles published in the Washington Post and NY Times (which should acceptable), the assessment provided by Daniel is correct.

You speak about the fact that Iran has been provocing the U.S., I think realities are turned upside down. Since 2003, the Pentagon has drawn up detailed and precise plans for U.S. sponsored attacks on both Iran and Syria. Israel and NATO are partners in this military adventure.

Moreover, since Summer 2006, there has been a massive concentration of US Naval power in the Persian Gulf and the Arabian Sea, which are part of those war preparations. Since 2006, US war ships with advanced weapons systems have been stationed almost continuously within proximity of Iranian territorial waters.

Large scale US war games have been conducted.

Numerous acts of provocation directed against Iran have been undertaken.

In addition to the three war ships which apparently had been harassed by Iran speedboats, the entire US Fifth Fleet is stationed within proximity of the Strait of Hormuz and the Iranian coastline. The Fifth Fleet is under U.S. Naval Forces Central Command stationed in Bahrain off the Strait of Hormuz Fleet.

So again, who is provocing whom? Common don't be biased. You can still hate the IRI and wish for their erradication this doesn't prevent you from admitting the truth!

Regards

Arezu

Anonymous22222, and Amir Taheri's lies

To: Anonymous22222

Since you brought Amir Taheri's usual fabrications to people's attention, you could at least point out the lies and inaccuracies.
That is, of course, if you know them, and are willing to do so.

1. The attack that Taheri is taking about happened not on that date, but on April 18, 1988, 4 days after the incident with the USS Roberts (see my earlier comment below). The man is in such a haste to fabricate things that he has forgotten, or does not know, the basic facts.

2. The attack by the US was totally unprovoked. It was a retaliation by the US, but it was never proven that it was an Iranian mine that had hit the USS Roberts. Iraq had also mined that area.

3. Sahand, Iran's largest warship that was destoyed by the US, was controlled by the Iranian Navy, not Paasdaaraan.

4. Paasdaaraan did not seek out confrontation with the US during that period. They never ever attacked the US. In fact, it was not just the US, but the entire NATO alliance that was patroling the Persian Gulf, so EVEN the Paasdaaraan knew they could not challenge the NATO. I challenge Taheri or you to present any document, newspaper report, etc., indicating that Paasdaaraan actually sought out confrontation.

5. Kuwait had provided $50 billion in aid to Saddam Hussein's Iraq in its war with Iran. Now, even though Iraq is occupied by the US, and Saddam is gone, Madeleine Albright's political consulting group, the Albright group, is trying to recover $28 billion of it (check the internet to read the story), while the US and Iraq are asking Iran to forgive Iraq and its deb due to its damage done to Iran (recognized by the UN).

6. Those attacks are completely well-known in Iran. Iran even lodged a protest with the UN Security Council, and Iran's newspapers talked about them.

7. What promted Ayatollah Khomeini to accept Resolution 598 of the UN Security Council was destruction of Iran Air Airbus in July of that year, not the April incidents. It showed to the Ayatollah that NATO was willing to attack even a civilian airliner in order to force Iran to stop fighting.

8. Amir Taheri has been caught lieing many many times. Google search him and The Nation Magazine to find the article about him in which his lies have been documented.

9. Amir Taheri often uses the Arabian Gulf, instead of the Persian Gulf, just to appease the Arabs.

So, Anonymous22222, if your patriotism is as strong as your mouth, pen, computer, and hand that attack everyone, who is opposed to the US illegal occupation of the Persian Gulf, without having the facts in hand, or knowing them, protest this and Taheri's other treasons. Then, one can respect your comments, even if one does not agree with them.

Re:Farhad Kashani

Look, you hate IRI fine, but do you hate Iran? I mean this is a fact that even US agrees now, that the problem was not from the Iranian side. Plus, remember that water blongs to Iran. Hey, who told your US to come to my region? Stop making excuses for a bully. If IRI is bad doesn't mean that US is good!! what kind of logic is that?

To: Anonymous22222 you refer to an article by Amir Taheri!!!!!!

You must be kidding. You refer to an article written by Amir Taheri in Asharq Alawsat!! Got the wrong refernce to prove your case. The man has it up-side down, and he is not a reliable source of information, to the contrary he is known for spreading misinformation.

If you don't know who he is maybe this will clarify his reputation for you.

The Amir Taheri Story

Amir Taheri is one of the strangest ingredients in America's media soup. There may not be anyone else who simply makes things up as regularly as he does, with so few consequences.

If you're already familiar with Taheri's accomplishments, you might want to skip to #5 below, which details his latest misdeeds. Otherwise, start at the beginning.

1. Taheri, who was once editor of a strongly pro-Shah Iranian newspaper during the seventies, left the country after the revolution. Strongly opposed to Iran's current government, he wrote a 1989 book called Nest of Spies: America's Journey to Disaster in Iran. Shaul Bakhash, a specialist in mideast history at George Mason University, reviewed the book for the New Republic and discovered important sections had been fabricated.

2. In 2006, Taheri claimed the Iranian parliament had passed a law requiring Jews and other minorities to wear special badges in public. The story was picked up all over the world, most prominently by the New York Post, the Drudge Report, and Canada's National Post. It turned out to be false.

3. Elena Benador, PR agent for Taheri (as well as Victor Davis Hanson, Charles Krauthammer, Michael Ledeen, Laurie Mylroie, Richard Perle, and James Woolsey) defended Taheri. Benador explained that, when it comes to Iran, accuracy is "a luxury...As much as being accurate is important, in the end it's important to side with what's right. What's wrong is siding with the terrorists."

4. Six days after the Iran story was retracted, Taheri met with George Bush at the White House as part of a group of "Iraq experts."

5. Norman Podhoretz, soon to become a senior foreign policy adviser to Rudy Giuliani's presidential campaign, wrote an article earlier this year called "The Case for Bombing Iran." To argue a nuclear-armed Iran could not be deterred, Podhoretz quoted the Ayatollah Khomeini:

We do not worship Iran, we worship Allah. For patriotism is another name for paganism. I say let this land [Iran] burn. I say let this land go up in smoke, provided Islam emerges triumphant in the rest of the world.

Podhoretz later used the quote on the Lehrer Newshour, as did Michael Ledeen in National Review.

6. Shaul Bakhash (see #1 above) was surprised by the quote, never having encountered it before and finding it out of character for Khomeini. The furthest back the quote could be traced was a book by Amir Taheri.

7. As reported by the Economist, Bakhash recently wrote for a private newsletter that no one can find the book Taheri claimed as his source in the Library of Congress or a search of Farsi works in libraries worldwide. The statement itself can't be found in databases and published collections of Khomeini statements and speeches.

Will Taheri explain what's going on? Will Podhoretz, or Ledeen, retract the quote? Will PBS tell their audience one of their guests said something completely bogus?

//www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2007/...

If this is not enough for you check this web-link out:

The neocon link to the ABC News scandal

//www.attytood.com/2007/09/the_neocon_link_to...

and yet another:

//www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/000796.php

Do you want more? Next time check your source before you provide reference to Amir Taheri.

Good bye.

this piece and this site is idiotic

What a bunch of mornoic revolutionary thugs did is not defensible and it is this sort of adventurism that will bring ruin to Iran.

//www.asharqalawsat.com/english/news.asp?sect...

Five French-made speedboats flying the colors of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC), Iran's parallel army, approached a US warship in a "threatening posture." When the Americans asked what the Iranians wanted, the answer came loud and clear: Move away or we will sink you!

In response, the Americans trained their heavy guns on the tiny IRGC boats and prepared to fire.

The incident ended with some huffing and puffing at the end of which the IRGC warriors backed off and sailed away.

Had the IRGC not run away we might have had a repeat of what happened on 18 April 1987.

On that day, a group of IRGC speedboats actually fired on a US warship, triggering a naval duel that lasted more than 12 hours.

At the end of the day, the IRGC had lost most of its navy, a loss from which it did not recover until the mid-1990s. The Americans also did "collateral damage" worth $1.2 billion to Iran's offshore oil installations.

No one knows how many IRGC men died. However, thanks to their better equipment, superior firepower and training, the Americans sustained few losses.

The duel had come in the context of Tehran's campaign to stop the flow of Kuwaiti oil through the Strait by firing on tankers flying the Kuwaiti flag. Asked for help by Kuwait, the US had put the tankers under American flag. But even that had not stopped the IRGC's quixotic campaign.

Significantly, the Americans took extra care not to destroy Iran's regular navy which they had helped build in the1970s. With one or exceptions, the Iranian regular navy stayed on the sidelines as the IRGC took a beating.

The IRGC and its political masters showed that they had not learned one basic lesson of strategy: not to join battle unless you have at least a 50 per cent chance.

The 18 April 1987 battle has entered US naval history as one of the five greatest victories ever won at sea by the Americans. (It is taught at US naval academies as a model for sea warfare.)

The battle, which has been kept a secret from the Iranian people to this day, had greater consequences.

It showed that the regime created by Khomeini, like other authoritarian and/or totalitarian ones elsewhere in the world, lacked self-restraining mechanisms and would not stop unless it hit something hard. (Last year, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad put this in his usual colorful way when he said that the Islamic Republic's nuclear policy was a locomotive with no clutch, back-gear, or brakes.)

Having hit something hard on his way, the ayatollah decreed an immediate halt to attacks on tankers.

He also ordered the IRGC to maintain a low profile within territorial waters. Khomeini understood that his brake-less locomotive had hit something hard and feared that, if he persisted, it might hit something harder.

The ayatollah who understood politics as the art of managing the use of violence, realized that he was provoking something more than the homeopathic doses of violence, mostly in the form of diplomatic gesticulations, that his American adversaries had used in response to the seizure of the US embassy in Tehran, the holding of American hostages in Iran and Lebanon, and the mass killing, by Hezbollah suicide-bombers, of 241 US marines in Beirut.

Khomeini was forced to break his public pledge not to end the war with Iraq until his armies "liberate Karbala and move on to liberate Jerusalem."

Within hours, his envoys at the United Nations were indicating that he would end the war provided the Americans took no further action.

Within weeks, the ayatollah had ordered an end to a war that had lasted eight years, cost a million lives, produced four million displaced persons, wiped out Iran's biggest port, and cost the nation some $200 billion dollars in physical damage. (Khomeini described his decision as "drinking a cup of poison". Ten months later, he was dead.)

To those who judge in a haste

To all those who have transformed their personal hatret of the IRI, which may be completely justified, to hatret of Iran and Iranians, even if they may profess otherwise:

First consider the facts:

1. The Strait of Hormuz, at its narrowest point, is only 31 miles wide. Iran's internationally-recognized territorial water is 12 miles wide, and so is also for the other side of the Strait. That leaves ONLY 7 miles as the international water, which means that close encounters are quite common, which even the US Navy has acknowledged.

2. What were the two sides' ships and boats carrying?

The USS Port Royal has a crew of 360. It carries missile launchers, artillery and torpedoes. The USS Ingraham with a crew of 215 carries torpedoes, artillery, and two helicopters (one of which was flying over the Iranian boats). The USS Hopper has 350 0n board armed with anti-ship cruise missiles, torpedoes, and artillery.

How about the Iranian side: 5 small but fast boats, each with 4 men, armed with semi-automatic weapons, and nothing else, very close to Iran's territorial waters. WOW!

Which side is more dangerous, and has more fire power? One side has 925 soldiers armed with the most modern arms, the other side 20 men armed with semi-automatic guns that you can find in any US home!

3. Someone, allegedly on the Iranian side, has said that, "I am coming at you," and "you will explode in a few minutes." Given that the only way a small boat can threaten a poweful warship is by suicide bombing and attack, why were the Iranians in the boat were wearing LIFE JACKETS, if they were going to do something really crazy, and so were such a grave danger?

4. Listen to video released by Iran, and listen to the accent of the Iranian man. Then, compare it to that of the guy who made the threats. Do they both sound like Iranians?

5. Why is there absolutely no background noise when the guy makes the threat?

6. The Iranian boats had thrown boxes in the Persian Gulf. Well, it turned out that they were light, floating boxes, unlike heavy ones that carry mines and are immersed. The US Navy said that there was no danger posed by the "objects," i.e., the boxes (read the internet to see the confirmation).

7. Unlike the episode with Britain several months ago, when the neocons and warmongers jumped at the opportunity and bombarded the internet, TV and radio, and the print media with "analyses" about the Iranian "threat" and how the West should respond forcefully, this time they have been absolutely dead-silent. Their silence is, in fact, deafening, in terms of what it means.

I can go on with this, but the point should have been made to all the reasonable people.

Now, a little history and background:

1. On April 14, 1988, the USS Roberts hit a mine in the Persian Gulf. It was never proven that it was an Iranian mine. But, the US, as usual, assumed so anyway. So, it attacked the Iranian navy that had not attacked the US, and destroyed Sahand, Iran's best and most modern warship, as well as a torpedo boat. The US also attacked Iran's offshore oil fields in the Persian Gulf, and destroyed several platforms. Then, on July 3, 1988, the USS Vincennes used a surface-to-air missile, and shut down - to the screams of joy on the Vicennese bride - Iran Air Airbus A300, flight IR655, and killed 290, many of them old men and children. This was while the US was supposedly NEUTRAL during the Iran/Iraq war.

The US later paid $62 million in compensation to the surviving families, but extracted $1.7 BILLION out of Lybia for supposedly blowing up the Pan Am 747 Boeing over Scotland in December 1988. I guess the blood of the Americans are more red than those of the Iranians, and more valuable.

2. The headquarters of the US 5th Fleet is in Bahrain, the Iranian territory that the Shah gave away in 1971 to become "independent."
Hey, you Shahollahi, I cannot hear you acknowledging how an "inseparable part of Iran" (in Shah's own words) was given away and, in my opinion, is being used against Iran and Iranians.

3. What is the US Navy doing half way around the world? To protect the "moderate Arab regimes" (read US puppets, the dictatorial, corrupt, Arab regimes) against the Iranian "threat?" Even the radical Ahmadinejad was invited to Saudi Arabia THREE TIMES in 2007?

4. Without any exception, all the top commanders of the US forces in the Persian Gulf area refer to it as the ARABIAN Gulf. Hey, you Shahollahi "patriots," I cannot hear your screams of protest.

Come on people. It is one thing to hate the IRI which can be completely justified, but it is a completely different thing to hate Iran and Iranians, especially when it comes to an incident as clear cut as this one.

XerXes..I’m only gonna say

XerXes..I’m only gonna say one thing., .just to show the amount of hypocrisy you IRI apologists and sympathizer carry, which is unbelievable and resulted in the destruction of my beautiful country,…..you are accusing me of Iran not having a democracy..is the democracy you IRI sympathizers want to give to our people includes intolerance towards other people’s opinions and cursing them out like you just did?? I love you guys showing your true faces..so please continue with that.

Arezu, it’s the IRI who

Arezu, it’s the IRI who has provoking conflict with the rest of the world, including the U.S, for the last 30 years, and that is a fact according to every word and action on their part. Every speech, every policy, every written line,,,, You said: “After all fear has to remain in the air both for domestic consumption and justify U.S. gun boat diplomacy and the petrodollars have to be re-cycled back to the U.S. for more arms sales”… Arezu, first of all, this fear policy, if for the sake of the argument we say it really existed, didn’t work in Iraq and led to the decline of the Bush legacy and Republicans losing the congress and possibly the presidency, so what makes you think they will adopt that policy again? What makes you think they even have the power and tools to do that? Most corporate media, with the exception of Fox news, is anti Bush. So please explain how they are “planting fear”. The fear already exists from these murderous in Tehran. Their bloody actions for the last 30 years has planted fear first among every single Iranian, and now, since their power is growing, pretty much the rest of the world. Second, when the IRI threatens and bashes the world, and specially the U.S, America has and will defend itself. Any country would do the same thing. You can call it “gun boat policy” if you want, but in fact it is self defense against the brutal fascist regime in Tehran. Finally, please explain how “petrodollars” gets recycled to arms sale. I do understand that you probably read that in the communist manifesto, but I would like you to give me facts and figures, not theories from some lefty or righty loony, but facts and figures. Lets discredit this gibberish leftist argument once in for all. Moving on, the logic you’re using to justify IRIs actions is not even used by them. They don’t even justify not initiating the incident using the logic that you guys use. You claim the voice didn’t have “Persian” accent. Maybe you guys in Tehran are not aware of this, but Iran has hundreds of different accents and few different languages. How you define “Persian” accent? Do you think a Tehrani speaking English sounds the same as lets sat a Balochi Iranian speaking English? Moving on…. How are you tying things that happened in the 80s during a war to now? Last time I checked, the IRI has given people a break from their bloody wars and conflicts and for now, we’re not in war. In case you forgot, your beloved IRI took us through the longest war in the 20th century with Iraq, and 2 years after the war, they wear buddies. So yes they were U.S ships present and engaged in military action against Iranians in the 80s, that doesn’t mean the situation is same now. Yes, IRI has to be concerned about U.S naval presence, and yes the U.S is the one who has come to Iran’s borders, but, it takes a simple incident like that to ignite a war, not just the U.S presence. This is the first incident between U.S and Iran navy in close to 19 years. So you have to look at the big picture and see who has started the provocations. What are the roots? Why did it happen? To me and most Iranians, it started with the Khomeini and his leftist allies, waging war on civilization in 1979. And I’m a proud Iranian, but let me tell you something about U.S history, you falsely and amazingly claim that U.S brought freedom to 1 country only..lets count, Japan, Germany, France, Italy, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Austria, Norway, your ideal USSR (Occupied by Nazism), Burma, Thailand, China, Philippines, Bosnia, Kuwait, ..among others,,and most importantly to us,,saved Azerbaijan from your beloved USSR. Arezu, just answer a simple question..do you think there exists a thing called reality at all or everything you hear and see is a conspiracy? I mean do you think the other non American 5 billion or so people on this planet, ever make mistakes at all? Ever decide to lets say take power in their country and brutally oppress their own people for the sake of power, wealth and revenge? Do you think U.S has some ultra super ability to control everything that happens in the world? They couldn’t even a get an approval vote to go war in 2003. I mean on one hand you guys bash and trash the U.S for every single thing that happens in every corner of the world, and then come around immediately and say that U.S is just a “paper Tiger”. So please explain to what extent you think U.S power goes. And what is our role in the mishaps in our country? Remember, we existed close to 2300 years before America became America.

To Shahi And MKO dummies

I guess the NY times is an IRI agent since they agree with this article!!!

Of course as expected, it

Of course as expected, it was just a matter of time before Mr. Pourkesali comes out and justifies IRIs action. I don’t think the world has ever seen a government that provokes others like the IRI does! I challenge anyone to give me one example of a bigger provocateur of a government than IRI,,,I’m not talking about bloody, or fascist, …I’m sure we can easily put Changeez and Hitler and Stalin in the same basket as IRI as far as brutality and evilness, but I’m just talking about the provocateur aspect….how about a few examples. IRI provoked Saddam to attack Iran and destroy our country by claiming to pursue an Islamic Shiite revolution in Iraq to take control and unite shite population, and since crazy Saddam was obviously scared to lose his thrown, became hysterical and started the longest war of the 20th century against our people. IRI has been provoking the West, which includes American, European and Oceanic continents, on 24/7 basis by trashing, threatening, and challenging every aspect of their government, culture, society, way of life and achievements, for close to 30 years now. That’s why Europe had almost no relations or had hugely tense relations with Iran up until Khatami took power, and was able to cleverly fool the world to believe he was “different”. And I don’t think I even need to explain how they have been provoking the U.S for the last 30 years on 24/7 basis starting with the hostage taking, flag burning, bashing at schools, mosques, TV and radio, newspapers, speeches, rallies,……At the end of the day, we have to admit and applaud the level of patience and restraint these countries have that did not lead them to nuke our country! And now Mr. Pourkesali and other Islamic Marxists are astonishingly claiming it’s the America who has been provoking IRI!

It's true

Everybody knows nothing happened and the U.S. was playing another dirty trick. I think may be they didn't think Iranian patrol boats would have video cameras on board. Iran's stupid government could have used this incident and gain some points and discredit the U.S. media a bit.