INSULT

Haja agha you have no credibility U R a Crook Criminal

Islam is not a religion ,it's a mafia type organization and like every criminal organization will be exteriminated by themselve.

There is no limit to stupidity & ignorance of islamist like you(criminal)

Viva Shaheen Najafi

2050 part II

In order for a better future for Iran, we need to bring back class, civility and most importantly the truth.

You do not set a good example by personally attacking people disagreeing with you. 

In one sentence: don’t let your bias kill the truth. That’s destructive for Iran. It has been, it is now.

Yes how about you start with yourself? Don't let your hatred of pre-Islam Iran get in your way. 

and I know 100% that you realize that I’m on the right side. 

Really? How do you know this?The first mistake is to think you are 100% right. That person is called "an kas ke nadanad va nadanad ke nadanad".

2050 use reason

OK, I brought up specific points in my post. Your response is to say:

Reading one sentence from VPK shows how much class has been lost amongst many of us.

I see you have no way to logically argue so you resort to personal attack.  Then turn it and accuse me of personal attacks. Well I will let readers decide who is using logic. You Mohammad's actions are well documented. If you got the logic then respond.

Is it "losing class" to say the truth and not sugar coat it? Is it being a thug to not pay lip service to Islam? Sorry bud, I am not going to pretend *** is gold. *** is just that and if you got proof then out with it. 

amirparviz, Man ghahr

amirparviz,

Man ghahr nakardam azizam, but I think you know I’m right and you’re wrong but you don’t want to admit it. So I left you to think about the things I said and the questions I asked, and I know 100% that you realize that I’m on the right side.

Its not important what you answer me, whats important is people like you who affect other people’s beliefs and ideas, know the truth and most importantly admit the truth without bias, whether its nationalist bias, such as in your case, or religious bias. The problem with Iranian society since the rise of Reza Shah and up until today is the extreme polarization of our society and as result of this polarization not only truth and logic have been lost, but also civility and common sense. Reading one sentence from VPK shows how much class has been lost amongst many of us.

In order for a better future for Iran, we need to bring back class, civility and most importantly the truth. If you see something wrong in the Iranian culture, SAY IT, if you say something wrong in Islam, SAY IT, if you see something wrong with Zaroastrianism, SAY IT. DON’T HIDE IT.

In one sentence: don’t let your bias kill the truth. That’s destructive for Iran. It has been, it is now.

Yek educationeh koochick dadim be Iran 2050 va Gharr Kard o Raft

goooli-goooli-gooooooo koja rafteeeeee.

این مقاله ی "جلالی" را بخوانید و باز هم بخوانید

درحواشی خشم مقدس دکتر عبدالکریم سروش : مقاله ی محمد جلالی چیمه در عصر نو
//asre-nou.net/php/view_print_version.php?objnr=21392

عقیده این نوکر خانه زاد:

جامه کس سیه و دلق خود ازرق نکنیم

عیب درویش و توانگر به کم و بیش بد است

کار بد مصلحت آن است که مطلق نکنیم

رقم مغلطه بر دفتر دانش نزنیم

سر حق بر ورق شعبده ملحق نکنیم

شاه اگر جرعه رندان نه به حرمت نوشد

التفاتش به می صاف مروق نکنیم

خوش برانیم جهان در نظر راهروان

فکر اسب سیه و زین مغرق نکنیم

آسمان کشتی ارباب هنر می‌شکند

تکیه آن به که بر این بحر معلق نکنیم

گر بدی گفت حسودی و رفیقی رنجید

گو تو خوش باش که ما گوش به احمق نکنیم

حافظ ار خصم خطا گفت نگیریم بر او

ور به حق گفت جدل با سخن حق نکنیم

2050

Mohammad's "marrying" a 6 year old then the rest was not his only act. History is filled with other acts of his. I am not going to name them all as they are well documented.

They included robbery to murder and yes even then people knew what is really bad. Besides don't you think God would have told him? Was he really in touch with God? Or maybe his supporters claim these things are acceptable by God? I do not.

قسم حضرت عباس یا دم خروس

قسم حضرت عباس تو باور بکنم

یا که آن دم خروست نگرم 

"

روی سخن با کسانیست که جرعه صحبت را به حرمت نمی نوشند و شرط ادب را در محضر خرد نگه نمی دارند و دین ورزان را به تازیانه تحقیر می رانند و دامن بزرگان دین را به لکه اهانت می آلایند.

اگر قصد روشنگری و خرافه‌زدایی و دین‌پیرأیی دارید، بسم الله. راهش نقد علمی‌ و تحلیل محققانه و همدلانه است و فتح باب دیالوگ و قبول شرافتمندانه رقیب، نه طعن و تخفیف و تمسخر.

"... 

دکتر اسماعیل خویی در روشن فکر دینی - قسمت یکم

//www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedd...

 دکتر اسماعیل خویی در روشن فکر دینی - قسمت دوم

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ62iLWTwSg

 البته اسمائیل خویی دنیای متاقضی دارد که پرداختن به آن  از حوصله این مطلب کوتاه خارج است.  

 بی شک این قبیل کارهای او قابل ستاش است و به گمان من در تاریخ ماندنی.

Believe in a democracy that leaders and representatives are controlled by members at all times.

Iran 2050

Societies having laws and courts and functioning as they do today were not this way in the past.   I can tell you in iranian culture and in zoroastrianism child sex was a big no no and considered immoral thousands of years pre islam.  Civilized people lived far more civilized lives before islam came about with greater moral clarity and worshipped the one god.

2050 I so wished you knew what A Personal Attack IS,

A personal attack is to attack you personally as in

Example James the most retarted, foolish, dirty, whore I ever met. 

Saying, "Talking like mullahs" and giving you an example of it is not personal attack, but an attack on your similarities of views/beliefs.

Again Saying Your Views are based on Ignorance is an attack of your views, not you personally, so not a personal attack, do you see the difference?

You are not your views and You are not your beliefs, does this need explaining for you?

On Your views... based on absolute denial of monarchy system’s inability to create a democratic society in the 21st century.

The Most Democratic Societies on Earth at this point in time are Monarchies not Republics. Not knowing this is to hold an ignorant view/belief and I can prove it.

In the past neither republics nor monarchies were democratic just 1000 years ago and before, caesars and kings ruled like armies

The concept of democracy as a system came about after both industrialization and the enlightenment.

Both monarchies and republics started to move towards democratic systems 300 or so years ago due to the benefts. 

Right now the Monarchies are fairing far better in the democratic sphere than republics.  

I could just attack your views and say they are ignorant, because I wish to, but I know you impact many people and wish for you to have more understanding and knowledge to have a more positive impact.  I care that you don't make your views based on propaganda and ignorance so I will go out of my way to give you the reasons I feel your views are totally ignorant and you can either get upset as if I personally insulted you and not your views. Or you can be grateful that i did not insult you, I attacked your view and gave you a chance to re-evaluate it and evolve.

Here you go //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Human enlightenment however slow, eventually helps us all.

FYI the Late Shah as a King was infact an Angel in comparison to all the leaders of his time.  A Highly principled King.  He delegated power to his team and he served the interests of the majority of the people of Iran, a democratic aim, and not small groups and this democratic behavior gave Iranians the greatest rise in middle class for the majority and the highest growth rate of education.

Read everything carefully look at the proof and reconsider because with your ignorant view as it is it could have a terrble effect on the future of iran.

By the way, since we are on

By the way, since we are on the topic of religion and Islam, I just like to share below piece I posted somewhere else as well:

VPK,

I just like to ask all those who keep saying “Muhammad raped a 9 year old” the following questions:

1-     Name me one society that had an age limit where you can’t have sex with women below a certain age in the 7th century?

2-     Are you guys claiming that the practice of having sex with girls that age didn’t happen in any other society in the 7th century?

3-     Did he rape them or did he marry them? Certainly both are wrong according to laws and values of our time, but make it clear, did he rape or marry?

4-     Can we apply the laws and values of our time to 7th century actions?

5-     If the answer to question 4 is yes, was it ok for Iranian brothers and sisters to get married? (A practice common among pre Islam Iranians, especially among the higher class).

6-     What can be considered the source of Islamic teachings? Is it Quran? Muahmmad? Khoemini’s books? Alammeh Majlesi books? How can we determine what’s true and not true about Islam?

7-     Does the entire tradition of Islam surround around “Mohammad having sex with a 9 years old girl and the war with Persia”?? We can narrow down 1400 years of greatness and lows, of good and bad, of brilliance and shame, into those two? Can we define capitalism by leaving out people with medical care like today’s America? Can we define Socialism with what USSR did to people? Can we blame all Judaism for the conducts of Israel? Can we bash Persia for what Anooshirawan’s murder of 40,000 Iranians of Mani religion?

You don’t have to answer me, answer yourself!

Amirparviz,   I wished

Amirparviz,

I wished you would have not used personal attacks such as “you talk like the Mullahs”, “Your views our based on ignorance” and things like that. Just to reiterate, one shows his/her class by how they conduct a conversation and dialogue. I wish you showed more class. In response to your personal attacks I do have to say that your views, and not mine, are in fact very much based on total ignorance of history and facts and psychological analysis of societal behavior and are also based on absolute denial of monarchy system’s inability to create a democratic society in the 21st century. It can create freedom but not democracy, it can create prosperity but not democracy. Your stubbornness in defending monarchy stems from the fact that you A – you worship tradition, good or bad B – You don’t understand that the world has changed C- you don’t want to learn from history D – You are only comparing Shah and Khomeini, and since we all know that Shah was an angel compared to Khomeini but certainly NOT an angel, you conclude that we should go back to monarchy! There is no empirical thinking in that argument.

More to your points, where on earth did I make any argument saying that rape is result of women not dressing appropriately? Where on earth did you come up with that conclusion? I’m lost! Maybe you can explain more!

That’s it for now.

Iran 2050, I am not wrong, that is your view which is fine

On :  Shah as someone who you can call an implementer of human rights. Everyone knows about the Savak and its actions.

I know about who helped train Savaki's what their rules were and I interviewed many of the alleged victims and the savaki's themselves.  No part of me even has a nagging doubt that iranians like yourself were deceived by the west regarding savaks acts.  You can paint my view anyway you wish, it comes from looking into the subject on first hand experience.

My view is that the Shah and especially Savak Massively improved Human Rights for Iranians.  It spied on Irans police force, provided for raising the education level for police officers and totally ended police practices of tortures everywhere in all of Iran, which were widespread common practice before Savak.  Before The late Shah and Savak, the Police had a history of committing torture based on the previous centuries practices.  Your lack of knowledge and innappropriately strongly held views are really a shame and a source of evil for all Iranians because they are based on Ignorance not knowledge.  Alas I pay some price for the ignorance of others.

I also disagree with your view on what causes revenge and vindictive types of people.  It does happen in the USA on public radio 24/7 religion bashing and does not cause what you say.  Infact  It is recognized scientifically as completely opposite to what you say and thanks to science at least such hypothesis can be proven through experimentation.  I don't think you give science the respect it deserves, you talk like the mullahs which say all women should be covered, because it creates rapists in men and causes them to cheat, this is totally unscientific and a hypothesis that is not proven and can be disproven, where as the type of men that committ Rape is understood by science and what the causes are and again very differently to muslims view.

I was not truthful about insulting god, I wanted to see your reaction, all personal insults undermine good processes.  My views on religion vary from vpk's in that I know too many people who's lives are better with a religion, and with harm to none, so I disagree with ridding the world of it as a source of problems, however, i totally oppose religion or corporations involved in government.  I agree with you that many mullahs are ill, and you'd be surprised at how their views and attitudes are a symptom of their illness.

Seeing much of the leadership of catholic and mullahs/sunni/shia as the worst most ill types to reach power... This starts a very important discussion regarding what systems of government help anti-social, mafia types and ill people to control the govt and what types of govt give rise to healthy minds ruling the govt. 

I view the US govt in recent, mental decline.  I view mullahs as never having been healthy to have a decline, they just drag iran into weakess which is what they were intended for by the west.

فیلسوف اسلام فقاهتی

حسین حاج فرج دبّاغ ملقب به عبدالکریم سروش یکی‌ از دستیاران اصلی‌ خمینی بود که در سال ۱۹۷۹ با او به ایران آمد و به گفته خودش عطر و بوی اسلام فقاهتی را در ایران رواج داد. سپس با رهبری انقلاب فرهنگی‌ اسلامی در دانشگاه‌های ایران، هزاران استاد و دانشجوی ایرانی‌ را از هستی‌ ساقط کرد. در سالهای اخیر بدلیل اختلافات داخلی‌ رژیم و محدودیتهای حاصله، به خارج از کشور امد و با استفاده از منابع مالی‌ حامیان رژیم فقاهتی، هر چند گاهی در یکی‌ از ایالت‌های امریکا زندگی‌ کرده و تحت عناوین موقت به تبلیغ و اشاعه اهداف رژیم فقاهتی در بین ایرانیان خارج از کشور ادامه میدهد. امیدوارم که ایرانیان پاکدل و هوشیار فریب سخنان این مبلّغ اسلام فقاهتی را که در لفاف کلمات فریبندهٔ به اشاعه اهداف خود ادامه میدهد نخورده و با بر رسی‌ و تحقیق در باره این دکتر داروساز ایرانی‌ که بعدها در انگلستان به درجه فیلسوف اسلامی نائل شده، مانع ادامه فریبکاری او شوند. 

Glad you play the role of

Glad you play the role of an uneducated, thug-wanna-bee bigot so perfectly for us.

Now let the grown ups talk and play somewhere else.

Amirparviz, You are

Amirparviz,

You are wrong. I don’t even know where to start responding to your arguments but below are just a few points:

-          You cannot for a second call the late Shah, whom by the way I consider one of the most peaceful kings in Iranian history, as someone who you can call an implementer of human rights. Everyone knows about the Savak and its actions. Furthermore, how can you care about human rights when you have monarchy in place? And I’m not talking about constitutional monarchy, but an old school style Persian tyranny. Now, certainly, the levels of crimes committed by the Shah regime is nowhere close to the crimes committed by Khomeini. No questions there, but, A – that doesn’t make Shah an angel 2- Khomeini didn’t commit his crimes because he had Islamic beliefs. First off, his beliefs were not Islamic. They were SHITE. Very different. Shite is, by many Iranians’ own admit, very close to Zoroastrianism. Second, Khomeini was a product of an ill society, a society where social and political structure were bound to collapse due to many reasons that I’m certainly glad to discuss with you.

-          Yes, Khomeini damaged Islam a lot, not because he implemented Islamic teachings, he DID NOT, because he SAID he is implementing Islamic teachings and many folks who didn’t know better believed him and blamed it on Islam.

-          How could you say “insulting” is acceptable? Now by that I mean in a democratic process not in public, because in public you are free to say whatever you like although it’s against social convention. As they say, rudeness is not illegal but it’s also not nice, it doesn’t build character, it doesn’t build great societies. So although there might be no laws against rudeness that doesn’t mean you should be rude. Insulting and bashing will only result in radicalizing the other person. Guess why Khomeini was so radicalized?? I think you guessed it! Because his beliefs and people like him’s beliefs were INSULTED and BASHED continuously since Reza Shah came to power. They were ridiculed as “Akhoond”, “dahati”, “shahrestani” , “akhoond 5 hezaari”, “ommol”, “aghab moondeh” in TV, newspapers, movies, …And that’s my friend why did they what they did when they took power. They took revenge because they were radicalized. That’s a very important point, and maybe the single biggest reason for the Iranian revolution that many Iranians tend to ignore. Khomeini was an Iranian citizen too. You don’t see NPR bashing someone religion or beliefs like Iran state TV and radio and media did during Shah, do you?

2050

When are you going to give up bashing everyone who you disagree with you as “Iran hater”???

I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. 

I guess for people like you, anyone who calls for a democratic and modern Iran is an “Iran hater”.

Yes absolutely. If your idea of democracy is dumping on anything Iranian and non Islamic yes indeed.

VPK, When are you going

VPK,

When are you going to give up bashing everyone who you disagree with you as “Iran hater”??? I guess for people like you, anyone who calls for a democratic and modern Iran is an “Iran hater”.

Siktir!!!!!!!!

I should have said this to him 30 years ago when he was engineering " cultural revolution" (or cultural/social destruction to you and me!)

But I was just a teenager and my balls hadn't fully developed, I am a lot older now but still no balls!

Hence this comment!

In loving memories of our fallen friends!

Dear Shazdeh

As I mentioned to our friend Mr Soroosh these phenomena’s are action and reactions exactly as Newton’s thirds law says:

“Every action revokes a reaction equal in force and in opposite direction”.

The only reasons for people who do NOT want to accept Shahs faults and his share of responsibility in the current mess are people who after 33 years of hell still do not want to acknowledge their error for following one Khomeini to the hell that is IRI. Especially when they were warned by one Dr Shahpoor Bakhtiar who stated:

“dioctatory e naalein kheili badtar as Dictatory e chakmeh ast.”.

I have explained this in detail in one of my previous articles and I believe it would be very useful for all those who see the world only as black or white to have a read and honest assessment.

Feel free to read and give your feedback

Dear jasonrobardas

You did not give any rationale about your sorrow!

Just curious, why do you feel so concerned about a nation with his kind of intellectual?

Soroush is a kind of writer who is hyper fussy about use of words. I use words somewhat carelessly (probably due to poor vocabulary). He means everyword he says and he sometimes like to be poetic. And I do not have taste for cynically political poetic writings!

Dear amirparvizforsecularmonarchy

I do not mindat all and do not feel inferior if you analyze me and give me some direction to get up to your level of intelligence.

That said, Human history is full of lies, opinions and lessons based on the understanding (and to some extend manipulation) of their writers: historians.

I take things mentioned in history books with grains of salt. I do not want to chain myself to repeating, mimicking history or following traditions verbatim.

The lasting and humane method to me to getout of the dillema we have in Iran is NOT thru coersion (verbally, physicall) but rather education to have a sustainable and prosperous democracy. It may take long, longer than my life, but I'm objective oriented gut. As long as I'm on the right track, I'm at peace eventhough I do not see the fruit of democracy in my lifetime.

We need few free-spirits and free-brains, free from arrogance, biggotry, and selfishness.

Dear Mr. Abdulkarim Soroush

KHAk BAR SARET .......

ALAS FOR A NATION WHO HAS AN INTELLECTUAL LIKE THIS FOOL!

Leave it to the retarded Shahollahi to make Soroush look good.

"Insightful observations", by An..glphil and AmirVizViz!

Where would Iran be without geniuses like you?

Oh, wait a minute ... where it exactly is right now ... thanks to the great vision and wisdom of ShahHanShah AryaMehr BozorgArteshDaran ... the Light of Aryans.

Zereshk ...

Compared to you guys, Soroush is Einstein.

2050 1979 helped iranians see those having a free lunch

off the backs of all the people in exchange for zero performance, the IRI unlike the period of the late shah whch was based on over 30 years of peace, progress and human rights, has been a period of over 30 years regression, most extreme repression, violence, and inhumanity even against its own supporters.  In Short no person or group of people could have litterally ripped Islam from the hearts of the people and performed daily rituals of repeated defecation and urination on the koran than those who followed khomeini's beliefs and views against the late shahs views and beliefs. 

The few who have kept their religion, mostly agree on the harm done by IRI to Islam and painfully regret opposing monarchy and the late shah in particular. 

2050 I could not disagree with your views more, in fact we need to fight against peoples views and beliefs as opposed to fighting people and personally attacking them.  Bashing and insulting others beliefs is acceptable expression, bashing people themselves and insulting them personally is unacceptable, criticizing their views and actions is necessary.  There is no way what so ever to enjoy peace among humanity with out this necessary democratic process.  Even monarchies and republics of 2000 years ago, before they recently implemented democratic systems as a result of european enlightenment , praised democratic atttributes in people that allowed and encouraged this ideal (though their civilizations could not implement democracy as a system).  Who would ever want to live in a society, monarchy or republic, where view points and beliefs could not be freely bashed and opposed?  That is the IRI, even in the late shahs Iran views and beliefs could be insulted and bashed (it was personal attacks and insults, against the king, that were not allowed, which is a rule that is naturally followed by civilized people anyways).

kooshan, Intellectually you are 100% correct,

However Practically speaking you are maybe 40% correct.  When I want to share views and beliefs with various people on topics we are discussing, If I see they are off in a practical sense, i give them a pointer on where they would benefit by having additional academic knowledge, with mullahs and their followers I usually encourage them to look towards scientific thought or study geology to fill in a gap of understanding, you have no issues there.  In your case I would ask you to look at history, for insights as to where your view is out of harmony with reality as there is some of your views are intellectual yet not enough in my view to think freely.

Yes we need to act democratically, how do we get there as a society, how did the others do it?  That is where we part ways on understanding of this.  The subjects I come back to are fascinating, after just one pint at the local tavern and a few jokes with the beautiful Euopean ladies.

Unity Based on Iranian Culture Is the Key To Victory

2050 give it up!

I already said religion is the problem no matter which. However you are using any change to bash Zoroastrians. Why do you hate anything Persian or Iranian? Why you a giant chip on your shoulder? What did "Persia" do to you.

We; we; we ; me ; me ; me

You people always say "we". There is no we in the world; it is "me". We Iranians are not one person to have a particular character or beleif. 

I beleive in one thing and you in something. As long as people insist on this fictitious generalization they will be not progress. 

Don't say us; say I !

Dear amirparvizforsecularmonarchy

I think we have a bit of a gap on what I consider as a goal here and what you just eluded here.

I do not really thing IRI is the cornerstone of our problem, although it may be level 2 issues which is born of level 1 (root cause).

I think root cause is the value system that our society has established. This value system has two ends: one dictated by ruling body and one accepted by people (social norms). There is definitely major contradictions between the two and that is causing us all this friction and heat.

IRI is legitimate child of this nation gone out of control. I wonder once we work on our (meaning mine, yours and other people of Iran) values, clean it up and act democratically, then IRI will definitely not exist.